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[DE]Connor

Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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On 2019-10-04 at 11:06 AM, [DE]Connor said:

FIRE BLAST
Like Fireball, this ability remained the same function-wise, with a few usability buffs: Casting time has been greatly reduced, and the ability now strips armor from nearby enemies, scaling in effectiveness based on current Immolation levels.

see, PLEASE make it look like the Fire exmi units...they look FAR better than this always has.

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What's with Scott's hate boner for Ember? Everything proposed looks nice but then you get the massive negative Immolation brings by draining all of your energy if overheat caps off.

No other frame has negatives that strong, the closest frame with a negative to ability usage I can think of is Nidus and his stacks getting used for his 3 and 4 but at the same time it's Nidus.

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Suggestions:

The casting animations seem unnecessary and problematic for survivability 

 

Bastille/Vortex:

Bastille converts shields into +Armor

 

Orbital Strike:

Enemies hit by Orbital Strike have damage vulnerability from all sources that stacks with the Passive or that the Orbital Strike does what the damage amp mine does   

Enemies under the cast of Orbital Strike are slowed down

 

Minelayer:

The damage vulnerability from the Orbital Strike suggestion could replace the damage amp in Minelayer, in which maybe Tesla can be moved to Minelayer (casting multiple at once)

The Speed pad affects enemies and sends them rag-dolling to the direction that the pad is facing for potentially faster Armor gain/Armor Removal from Bastille. Gain fire rate boost after using it. 

The Nail turret damages enemy weaponry/robotics and nullifies them

Power Strength affects the amount pulled by Tether?

 

New mine or new first ability:

A short duration deployable shield that allows Vauban to take bullets/rockets with health of Shield based on Armor. Cannot be used on Allies/ cannot be picked up by allies. 

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Cibyllae:

Its just annoying to see both reworks be boiled down to;

"They can strip armor, and they can scale damage"

Is that what every warframe is going to turn into now?

With pure CC being dead, armor scaling and weapon power creep now demand this for warframes to be/stay relevant.

It‘s sad, but that‘s the direction DE took (and a majority of the community embraced, because of bigger numbers...)

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After watching the latest devstream, as an Ember main, I feel the need to give my feedback about ember's incoming rework.

I think the rework look good and promising for the most part, but it has a major problem: with the introduction of the new version of World On Fire it changes dramatically Ember playstyle.

Right now Eber is a warframe that specializes in sustained damage, one of the major reasons I like her.

With the rework she becomes a warframe that specializes in spam casting and burst damage spells, a lot more similar to Saryn than to current Ember.

 

I for one do not like playing Saryn (I know she is a very powerful warframe for endgame content, but I really can't stand her gameplay) and it's possible that there are others fan of Ember that share my position.

 

So here is my proposal:

let's take Firequake, World On Fire augment, and rework it so if it's equipped it changes back the functionality of world on fire to the current one (flame aura) or something similar to it.

Like what was done for Banshee's Sound Quake augment, but in reverse.

This would let the players choose which playstyle better suits them and the missions they are going to play.

It would also make Ember a much more flexible frame and expand her possible usage both to missions that require sustained damage and missions that require powerful nukes.

Edited by ZarZuf

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Vauban seems fun, not too much to comment really. 

 

Ember seems interesting, and a lot of the community seems to be split on her. Personally I never was a fan of ember much anyway so I'm excited to try out version 3.0!

Passive seems so cool! Needs range though, 10m is simply too short. Especially considering the increase in open-world and wide open map reworks DE has been making recently, less range just necessitates a way to close gaps, and if you have another dps in your group forget about getting over to that juicy group of 6 enemies for a buff before their dead.  25m seems a bit generous and 15m still seems a tad small so maybe 20m is a good middle-ground? Truly I don't know.

A lot of tenno are saying fireball is totally irrelevant but I don't really see their point since it looks like an absolutely fantastic option to throw out in choke points and heavy unit shutdowns (especially with future heat proc armor strip capabilities). Plus if the left over fireball scales off range too? we're in the business. 

Immolation is rather perplexing. I personally like generic DR but its a tad lackluster if that's all it does. Increasing ability damage is also cool, and is reminiscent of accelerant (which is good since a lot of people are upset about being gone so that's a nice way to address that issue). But again... that's all it does. That seems like a rather nitpicky approach to the situation, but it just reminds me too much of too many other abilities and I don't like that its so same-y... so I have a suggestion (see spoiler tab).

[IF YOU DON'T READ ANYTHING ELSE PLEASE READ THIS HIDDEN PART]

Spoiler

To please those so up in arms about WoF gone, increase the uniqueness of her 2, and to increase build diversity I suggest implementing a pseudo replacement WoF when the meter is full and immolation active. Instead of losing a ton of energy at once when the meter is full, the full meter instead starts to drain energy (fuel for the fire) at a very fast rate affected by efficiency and duration. Along with Damage reduction being maxed out and ability damage increased when the bar is full, a similar AoE "everything around me is now burning" kinda deal goes into affect at max meter. You could practically make it work the exact same way as WoF with mostly all the same numbers as her current fourth, just make the energy drain higher. I'm just trying to think of ways that are a good compromise for different passionate ember mains, and considering how much I love how Bastille and Vortex are combined for Vauban now, I figure a similar treatment could be given to Ember.

I like micromanaging play styles with a lot of synergy (Gauss quickly becoming a fave) so the full energy drain doesn't bother me that much, but a lot of people have an issue with it. My problem is that the bar seems to increase way too fast, and if it remains at that speed and I hit 100%? Then yes I will be quite livid when all my energy is suddenly gone. That's why I think it is way better to have an "overheat mode" rather than an "overheat condition". I don't want to be punished for flinging flames everywhere, I want more flames! All that said, the energy drain has got to be pretty massive, even with max efficiency and duration, because this is supposed to be her super mode of sorts and should only be active for so long. 

Once her 3 is used the overheat/WoF mode is deactivated and you need to build up the meter again. 

Perhaps this seems a bit too much for the base ability, and if so I highly suggest combining firequake and maybe her current 2 augment into one that can be used for this purpose and just keep the energy drain from current WoF. I would just really hate to see WoF go for all those who are such fans of it. I think its a great way to spice up her generic DR ability a bit and allow players to play Ember similarly as they do now. 

This will also dispel those wanting this ability to just become a passive (which I don't find entirely reasonable). 

 

I don't think the fuss about her 3 casting out her DR is as big of an issue as people are thinking. I mean the ragdoll, and the fire proc will likely be enough crowd control for an Ember to get the DR back. Suppose that's still to be determined however so we'll see. I do love the armor strip though.

Fourth is awesome, can't wait for the flaming meatballs of death. Really hoping the "all enemies in line of sight" really pertains to a large reach, because otherwise I am a bit skeptic, but hopeful. Still, if a large group is unaffected than this may turn out to be a much worse WoF (which goes back to my 2 suggestion). 

 

Overall, happy for changes, excited to play-test, and I hope the team keeps listening to the players 🙂 
 

Edited by Obe-Ron-Kenobi

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I don't realy know if the ember rework will be good, but the change make her a totaly new warframe, except the first power everything change, and I'm sad about that.

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I don't expect them to take a step backward with an augment... but maybe those set ablaze by the comets (and those that have the fire spread to them) can have pillars of fire erupt from under them for additional burst Heat damage and a knockdown. For nostalgia's sake.

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Hi, why take off the world on fire, already that I hit my keyboard or my controller, I who loved Ember, there you break my game! to find also that there is too much visual effect, with the other players and their warframe, is that it would be possible to be able to deactivate the colors which kill the eyes, and that this less polluting for our eyes! thank you. my English is a bit nil, but I can write to you in FR

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On 2019-10-06 at 5:17 AM, Justin_Case001 said:

I'm not overreacting this time.

[citation needed]
You know WoF was nerfed into total uselessness, right? What's the point of keeping it in this state? Let's get something new and powerful in its stead if they won't bring it back to its original level of raw "press 4 to win", which they won't, because abilities like pre-nerf AND post-nerf WoF are bad for the game for different reasons.

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Hello Ember was after Frost Prime my second Frame that I got as Prime and since then I played her alot. I say that her heat meter shouldn`t deplet all her Energy. As the Queen of Fire, the pure Inferno on Earth and beyond the Solar System she should become stronger with rising the heat meter and not extinguish like a candle in a storm. And her new Ult I doesn`t like at all. The new Ult looks nice, but it doesn`t reflect enough the theme of the Infernoframe for me. She should keep her old Ult, if possible like Vaubans new Ult a combination from her old and new Ult. And please remove that pitiful range on Embers old Ult. I don`t think that fire will reduce in size, if it will grow stronger then that shouldn`t happen with her Ult. It should increase in range and strength with the level of her haet meter.

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I am really impatient to test Vauban, his new kit seems very promising. And this is the first time he has real damage abilities. I feel like i'm gonna enjoy his 3d. All of his powers seem usable, and the trick to combine Bastille and Vortex was a really nice idea. These powers were redundant in the "total incapacitation of the enemies" role. Now they synergize well.

Too bad that the Tesla Drones are not 4-elements-able : nitrogen drone that slows down until the target is completely frozen, napalm drone, toxic drone. However, it's not a big deal.

 

Regarding Ember, I think it's way too harsh to consume ALL of her energy if Immolation reaches 100%. I hope this will be changed to percentage of her energy, (somewhere below 50%). Because, without her energy and powers, Ember is just a plucked chicken.
Feathers aside, the come back of a defensive ability is really welcome. It would be really cool that her Immolation would also reduce the duration of status inflicted to her (like... she's not immune to procs, but the effects are immediately cauterized by her Immolation. This effect could be applied to allies close to her.).

Her ultimate seems way more interesting gameplay-wise, rather than just "you press 4 at the beginning of the mission then you're done." And the visual FX of it are epic, it makes her more "mage"-like.

I'm just concerned about the fact that she's all "FIRE FIRE FIRE BUUURN". Could you introduce some day (like Saryn) diversity in her damage-types to improve her versatility & strategies? I don't know, her ultimate could deal a "Blast" for the first instance of damage (then the enemies are burning, so "Fire" damage). Her 3 could have a portion of it dealing Corrosive damage (the overheat melting elements), or her 1 generate Gas damage (the smoke intoxicating enemies). What I mean is that dealing Fire with each power is a bit disappointing/limitating. We get it, she's the Flame Lady, but more diversity in the manifestations/actions of the fire would be greatly appreciated (burning, melting, cauterizing, exploding, blinding, intoxicating...)

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Yaerion
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Le 08/10/2019 à 06:01, Haranthus a dit :

There are things about Vauban that I like and things that I don't.  First - overall I think it's an interesting looking kit - I don't mean this to be a bash post at all.

Part of what I'm concerned over stems from not knowing numbers ... but here's my thoughts:

Telsa Grenades - The main thing I wanted from this ability was to make it relevant damage beyond level 5 enemies.  Beyond that I liked (in theory at least) to use them to cover hard points while I focused elsewhere.  Making them rollers is interesting ... but it does get rid of their one niche.  But the new version looks possibly fun and interesting - but the damage needs to be there.

Mine Layer - I'm rather confused and let down by this entire ability.

  • Zip-line - Why would I want to use a 2-enemy pull when I have Bastille?
  • Nail Bomb - Why would I want to use Nail Bomb when I have Bastille?
    • Puncture procs ... lower damage ...?
    • Well in Bastille they can't do damage and I can kill them with a trigger pull
    • I might be underestimating this ability due to not knowing numbers ... but in the video the range looks short and the damage very low
  • Boost Pad - Why? Why would I ever use this?
    • Open worlds ... well ... I have my surf board and my arch wing ... why use boost pads?
    • If I want to run across the land ... there's Gauss
  • Damage Boost
    • I'm guessing at the beginning of the mission, I'll cycle my 2 to this and leave it there

Orbital Bombardment - This looks fun.  Hopefully it lives up to the hype

Bastille + Vortex - Looks good, possibly great.  Just please don't make it so mod hungry.  It's current version is so hard to mod for while maintaining some room for some tankiness.

The Minelayer is the biggest point of confusion/disappointment for me.  I was hoping for a bunch of things that would synergize with his stronger CC: things like turrets that do damage (esp to things in Bastille), a tentacle to pull enemies into the bastille, etc.

I don't hate what's here mind you.  Far from it ... but I am quite confused by the Minelayer stuff.  The actual numbers and ease of modding will be the final determiner.  I really hope that he's 'end-game' viable.

Then again ... once I get my hands on the kit ... maybe I'll see where everything falls into place and love it.  Who knows?

Combining Bastille & Vortex is the dumbest thing they did with Vauban's kit. A power that repels enemies and suck them in at the same time doesn't make any sense. If they can't find anything more relevant than that i'd prefer to keep Vortex as a separate skill cause i don't want any energy leecher or anything else going where i'm putting a Bastille, ever. We weren't even using this two powers in the same situations/spaces previously.

Tesla grenades were an awful skill, they still are. Why would we care about enemies being stunned in the first place ? Redundant and worthless. The homing gimmick is fun but was it really what Vauban needed ?

Mines are the worst part of this "rework", they didn't even remove powers that are basically used by some to troll other players. I'm wondering if devs are playing the game with other people at this point. It's overcomplicated for really few results, they already did that with Titania's tributes and they're still tweaking it to make us use it. 😓

In the meanwhile Vauban is still a terrible support, no health/shield gain, no power strength buff (he'd be a good candidate for such buffs tbh), no real synergies and still quite dated as a whole. And since they did spend some time designing new mines, i'm pretty sure we'll get stuck with these no matters what happens in any feedback thread.

Half of Vauban's kit is still uninspired, uneffective and not much fun either (why are rotation skills still a thing), Bastille and Vortex were working fine and now only one remains...

So far i don't even see why people would play Vauban more or use his whole kit, the only difference they made is that now players will stupidly running into enemies while spamming an upteenth ability. Great job at reworking the most refined frame yet. 👍

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Hey guys,

I recently saw the dev stream on Ember's remake and I am not really enjoying it.

1)   Her 2nd and 3rd abilities are co-dependent on each other...which burns so much energy.

2)   I have also been told that her "World on Fire" is being replaced with the meteor strike fire attack.    Her World on Fire is what made her unique from the other Frames.   Also I know that a lot of people are not liking her previous abilities but I know a lot of people who I know who like her current abilities as they are.

If the 2nd ability is going to be there, having the heat gauge could be akin to Gauss.   Tie it to a new passive, have it collect heat from fire around and have it drain and deplete based on ability use while empowering the ability

OR 

It could also act as an extra defense against melee attack (ie burning the attacker)

Let me know what you guys think.

Edited by PsyRaveAJ
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9 minutes ago, PsyRaveAJ said:

Her World on Fire is what made her unique from the other Frames.

The fact that she is one of the 3 or so frames with an AoE channeling ability that moves with you does not make her THAT unique.

Also Equinox does what Ember's 4 does but better.

DE is trying to (rightfully) step away from "press 4 to win" frames

Edited by BaIthazar
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21 minutes ago, PsyRaveAJ said:

but I know a lot of people who I know who like her current abilities as they are.

You can say that about pretty much any frame/ability, if not all of them. 

 

 

Edited by Madway7
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50 minutes ago, PsyRaveAJ said:

Hey guys,

I recently saw the dev stream on Ember's remake and I am not really enjoying it.

1)   Her 2nd and 3rd abilities are co-dependent on each other...which burns so much energy.

2)   I have also been told that her "World on Fire" is being replaced with the meteor strike fire attack.    Her World on Fire is what made her unique from the other Frames.   Also I know that a lot of people are not liking her previous abilities but I know a lot of people who I know who like her current abilities as they are.

If the 2nd ability is going to be there, having the heat gauge could be akin to Gauss.   Tie it to a new passive, have it collect heat from fire around and have it drain and deplete based on ability use while empowering the ability

OR 

It could also act as an extra defense against melee attack (ie burning the attacker)

Let me know what you guys think.

I totally agree esp on 2). WoF defines Ember, and mobile offense is the best. It was fine until they made it into a channel ability. Channel ability costs way way too much energy and they say they want to move away from so called ""afk play"" but channeling is actually that. Before that it was good to use 2 on nearby enemies to buff dmg done. And sometimes using 3 for extra. 

If they wanted to make a meteor based defense and dmg frame they should have just made a new frame, not ruin ember!! Jeeze they coulda just made Blaze a frame instead and used that kit on him. 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Chicadino said:

You know WoF was nerfed into total uselessness, right? What's the point of keeping it in this state? Let's get something new and powerful in its stead if they won't bring it back to its original level of raw "press 4 to win", which they won't, because abilities like pre-nerf AND post-nerf WoF are bad for the game for different reasons.

[different citation needed]

I get a lot of use out of WoF (with Firestorm Augment) as a knockdown AoE and fire proc that I don't have to aim or even pay attention to. Just because you can't or don't use it doesn't mean it's useless.

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1 hour ago, BaIthazar said:

The fact that she is one of the 3 or so frames with an AoE channeling ability that moves with you does not make her THAT unique.

Also Equinox does what Ember's 4 does but better.

DE is trying to (rightfully) step away from "press 4 to win" frames

Only other is Equinox. Ember is way more fun to play. or was until they nerfed her and made wof a channel. 

This whole trying to step away from 4 to win thing is bs.  Making overly complicated mechanics that make the game less accessible and less fun and more time consuming is simply not good. Ember was never press 4 to win to begin with anyways. Had to use 2 and 3 for extra dmg boost. She was best for solo clearing boring af nodes and invasions. Trying to make all the frames on the same level is simply a mistake. Make them all the same and none are good. People will always find the most effective ways to kill or farm anyways. 

 

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1 minute ago, Fallowsthorn said:

[different citation needed]

I get a lot of use out of WoF (with Firestorm Augment) as a knockdown AoE and fire proc that I don't have to aim or even pay attention to. Just because you can't or don't use it doesn't mean it's useless.

Thats why I think WoF should just be baked into her new 2 at full fire meter. That way instead of immediately draining all your energy, it just drains really fast (more drain then current WoF) while you've got fire all around you doing the classic Ember thing. In addition, the augment can simply be moved to her 2 without any additional changes to it.

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Just now, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

Thats why I think WoF should just be baked into her new 2 at full fire meter. That way instead of immediately draining all your energy, it just drains really fast (more drain then current WoF) while you've got fire all around you doing the classic Ember thing. In addition, the augment can simply be moved to her 2 without any additional changes to it.

I do like this idea as a compromise, if I can't just keep WoF outright. It just annoys me when people insist there's only one way to play this game "right" because very often, it's not what I'm doing and it's not because I'm not aware the "right" way exists.

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3 minutes ago, Fallowsthorn said:

I do like this idea as a compromise, if I can't just keep WoF outright. It just annoys me when people insist there's only one way to play this game "right" because very often, it's not what I'm doing and it's not because I'm not aware the "right" way exists.

Which is exactly why I think there should be some way to keep old WoF in. Build diversity is the biggest reason I play this game! The more you can optimize for the better!

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13 minutes ago, Spam661 said:

Only other is Equinox. Ember is way more fun to play. or was until they nerfed her and made wof a channel. 
 

I think someone got similar or better results using Hildryns 3

Revenants 4 is also along these lines, although the main difference would be that it blocks weapon usage and has terrain issues. (also the energy cost is much, much higher)

Edited by Madway7

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17 hours ago, ZarZuf said:

with the introduction of the new version of World On Fire it changes dramatically Ember playstyle.

That's literally the point. WoF is a terrible ability and it entirely goes against DE's statement of opposing lazy abilities that do the work for you.

17 hours ago, ZarZuf said:

Right now Eber is a warframe that specializes in sustained damage, one of the major reasons I like her

She specializes in weapon damage. People have begged for years for her to go back to being the pyromancer caster she was always advertised to be. 

They're not giving an augment to give WoF back any more than they will to give back the old Stasis or the old Bladestorm. They were changed for a reason, and not on a whim. 

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