Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

[ZarZuf]

3 hours ago, BaIthazar said:

Hydroid, it doesn't do a lot of damage, but it counts

???

In what alternate bizarro universe does Hydroid have something similar to World On Fire?

The only 2 frames with abilities vaguely similar are Equinox and Hyldrin, and that is already a stretch:

- Equinox's Maim aura does very very little damage. It's primary use is to store damage and then nuke everything on the map.

- Hyldrin's Haven is primarily a support ability, intended to shield and protect allies. It also does damage to enemies, but at a staggeringly higher cost and again the damage is way lower that World On Fire

 

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

If I may bud in, I think that Ember's new 2 should include WoF (just at an increased drain) once you max out the new fire meter. This way, instead of immediately draining all your energy for just naturally doing ember things, you'll be rewarded with an "overheat mode" where, well.. the world burns around you essentially. By allowing her 2 to include either a pseudo WoF (or just the real deal at a high energy drain) those who really preferred her before changes will be happy, and those who want to go straight nuke and don't want to build for WoF anymore don't have to (but they won't be punished for going full meter, which will inevitably happen). I do like the idea that Ember needs to "cool off" by releasing flames with her 3 and I think that should remain the way to turn off WoF (as it makes sense for meter economy), but as it stands I don't see why her old 4 can't remain a part of her kit with just a little bit more effort to activate it. 

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

I agree, as a PC player who is sadistic enough to use a controller I also wish for more functionality with hold abilities. 

[ZarZuf]

5 minutes ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

If I may bud in, I think that Ember's new 2 should include WoF (just at an increased drain) once you max out the new fire meter. This way, instead of immediately draining all your energy for just naturally doing ember things, you'll be rewarded with an "overheat mode" where, well.. the world burns around you essentially. By allowing her 2 to include either a pseudo WoF (or just the real deal at a high energy drain) those who really preferred her before changes will be happy, and those who want to go straight nuke and don't want to build for WoF anymore don't have to (but they won't be punished for going full meter, which will inevitably happen). I do like the idea that Ember needs to "cool off" by releasing flames with her 3 and I think that should remain the way to turn off WoF (as it makes sense for meter economy), but as it stands I don't see why her old 4 can't remain a part of her kit with just a little bit more effort to activate it. 

This is an interesting idea. I like it

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

In my opinion, instead of draining all her energy at once, once you hit 100% on the fire meter you go into an "overheat" mode which is just WoF but with CRAZY DRAIN. Like, big boy numbers, you'll need a lot of efficiency and rage to keep it going but, because of ember's new fire damage, WoF will be rightfully saucy. This will dispel those who are heartbroken that WoF is leaving, and it won't punish players who don't care much about not using WoF but don't want all of their energy gone for not managing something correctly. 

(edit: this will be routed to her 2nd ability) 

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

I hate to sound like a broken record since I've been saying this on a few other posts, but I believe there exists a compromise between those who hate WoF and those who love WoF.

Instead of throwing it out completely, I think that WoF can be mapped to ember's new second ability. Instead of the proposed "loose all your energy for using your abilities naturally" have the 100% threshold on your meter make ember "overheat", giving us the old WoF but with a much higher energy drain. This helps make the ability not so brainless, as you've got to work for it to activate it and manage your much increased energy consumption but it allows players who have loved WoF for so long not have their favorite ability taken away (normally that's not the best argument, but Ember is one of the oldest frames in the game, and a lot of tenno have made that ability work despite its glaring flaws... so I don't think it should be completely removed). The upside to my proposal for those who vehemently hate WoF is that if you reach 100% meter you can dispel it anyway with your 3 (or deactivating 2) without being too harshly punished for going to 100%. This gives a better emphasis on meter economy and allows negative efficiency builds to still nuke how they wanna nuke without having to worry about WoF being forced on anyone's game play. 

An augment may be a good idea, perhaps a replacement for one of her old ones, but as it stands I think it works fine if WoF is baked into her 2 on its own.

I may not have much of a dog in this fight as Ember is my least played Warframe, but I know a lot of people are passionate about her and I'd hate to see one of their favorite aspects of the game to be gone. Plus, having a way to keep WoF would increase build diversity (as there would be a higher emphasis on DoT and efficiency rather than nuke) and I am always in high favor of more build variety. Its easily my favorite aspect of this game! More options are always a good thing. 

[Blexander]

3 hours ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

In my opinion, instead of draining all her energy at once, once you hit 100% on the fire meter you go into an "overheat" mode which is just WoF but with CRAZY DRAIN. Like, big boy numbers, you'll need a lot of efficiency and rage to keep it going but, because of ember's new fire damage, WoF will be rightfully saucy. This will dispel those who are heartbroken that WoF is leaving, and it won't punish players who don't care much about not using WoF but don't want all of their energy gone for not managing something correctly. 

(edit: this will be routed to her 2nd ability) 

That's basically the most reasonable way of still having that sort of restriction. Instead of "I wasn't paying attention for several seconds, and now my energy is gone. I just lost the use of my abilities" happening, "I wasn't paying attention and my energy is draining rapidly, better use 3" should happen.

[Blexander]

4 hours ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

I don't see why her old 4 can't remain a part of her kit with just a little bit more effort to activate it. 

There's a bunch of reasons WoF needs a change in design. Ignoring that the range reduction made the ability extremely subpar and irrelevant, it can only target a set amount of enemies within it range, like how Vauban's Bastille has a cap, and it can only hit a single enemy once and after a delay hit another. It's technically a single-target ability. And don't forget that it needs a visual design overhaul, because currently, the tiny flames that burst out of the ground exceed the range where she can actually damage anything, and it looks as unimpressive as the meteor the showcased recently.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

34 minutes ago, Blexander said:

There's a bunch of reasons WoF needs a change in design. Ignoring that the range reduction made the ability extremely subpar and irrelevant, it can only target a set amount of enemies within it range, like how Vauban's Bastille has a cap, and it can only hit a single enemy once and after a delay hit another. It's technically a single-target ability. And don't forget that it needs a visual design overhaul, because currently, the tiny flames that burst out of the ground exceed the range where she can actually damage anything, and it looks as unimpressive as the meteor the showcased recently.

Thing is, Im saying the ability should be included in her kit, but not the focus of the ability slot (if that makes any sense).  Its just a spicy little bonus for her 2nd ability but isn't the main focus of it. Sure, WoF on its own I can agree is a bit lackluster, but if fire procs are being improved and ability damage is buffed according to her meter then it will provide some damage that WoF currently lacks. Besides everyone uses it for firequake anyway, which can easily remain the same as an augment if her new 2 gains Wof functionality at max meter. 

Sure its not the best ability, we agree on that, and Im not proposing it become anything spectacular either. I am simply in favor of giving long time Ember mains at least the chance to use a part of her kit that they have loved and an alternative to getting your energy completely drained at full meter. This way, if you don't like WoF, you don't even have to acknowledge its existence it'll just remain as an unobtrusive way to build Ember in a different playstyle. Build variety is always a good thing and the more ways you can make a warframe fill a specific niche the better in my book. Keeping in a DoT AoE ability is good as it is very distinguishable from all the burst damage she does with all other aspects of her kit. 

Also if you're unimpressed with the meteor visuals than I'm afraid you're not really going to be satisfied with flame effects in warframe in general. Then again, its also all a matter of taste. I never really saw a problem with WoF visuals, but clearly some do. This is purely subjective and in my opinion doesn't affect functionality at all, which is what Im arguing over.  

[Blexander]

2 minutes ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

Thing is, Im saying the ability should be included in her kit, but not the focus of the ability slot (if that makes any sense).  Its just a spicy little bonus for her 2nd ability but isn't the main focus of it.

I like this idea better than the wave that comes out once you expel her new 2.

4 minutes ago, Obe-Ron-Kenobi said:

Also if you're unimpressed with the meteor visuals than I'm afraid you're not really going to be satisfied with flame effects in warframe in general

It's not the flame effect, it's the meteor itself. Basically, "why?". Out of all the things that simply scream "inferno", why a meteor?

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

1 minute ago, Blexander said:

I like this idea better than the wave that comes out once you expel her new 2.

Thanks! I think its a good compromise between the two sides of the ember debate, I'm happy you can at least tentatively agree.

2 minutes ago, Blexander said:

It's not the flame effect, it's the meteor itself. Basically, "why?". Out of all the things that simply scream "inferno", why a meteor?

OOHH okay, that makes more sense lol. I mean, I dunno just cause it looks cool I guess 😂 least that's what I thought. Not everyone's cup of tea I imagine. Gonna be hilarious in an enclosed ship space.

[MacIntoc]

Probably a bit late but my suggestion for Vauban

1°)kind of exalted grenade launcher :

• prim fire :  ”Launch Pad” : Granting a boost of speed in a chosen direction (as follow line of sight). Successive fire cost less energie (rocket-jump style). Also, apply an explosive proc on enemies that walk on, ragdolling them in arrow direction. Can also move a Vortex away. Fire an existing Launch Pad will remove it.
• sec fire : ”Nail Grenade” : break enemies weapons and applie rad proc on enemies (instead of damaging them). Can reduce nullifier bubble even if it can't target mobs inside.
• zooming/glide : ”Repo Roller” : launch a little roller that follow Vauban, draining mobs life in range to restore Vauban's energie (in energie per seconde, not blocked by leecher or modified by energy reduction). Apply electric proc on enemies in range.

Grenades and rollers have HPs and  have same threat level than Warframes, are in limited simultaneous number (If a new one is launched, the most ancient is detroyed). When a grenade or a roller is destroyed, it blind enemies around. Finisher on theses enemies restore a few shield (synergie with 2).

For grenade launcher, please privilegie onclick fire instead of switch between primary and secondary fire (or, if you could, make a global option to choose between switch or onclick fire for all weapons with 2 fires mode ^^).

2°)deploy a drone that drain Vauban's shield (and overshield) and convert it in an armored shield around Vauban (and itself) which gained damage réduction from Vauban's current armor value (natural synergie with ult) and prevent physical proc (bleed, stagger and weakened). It may also block poison, unlike standard and proto shields. Vauban's shield can't regenerate or be regenerated as long as it's drained. Drone remains while Vauban's shield is not exhausted.

3°)deploy an orbital drone that generate an area of effect around Vauban. Within this area of effect, the drone will progressively and permanently decrease enemies max health, increasing a pool of damage. This drone have an energy drain relative to the number of weakened enemies (or the amount of stored damage). While the drone is on :

• on a short press (with energy cost), Vauban launch a beacon (aim inside the area of effect) targeted by an orbital strike that drains and makes a percentage of the damage stored. Strike's AoE may be a percentage of area of effect.
• on a long press (no energy cost) or energy is exhausted : the drone rushes on Vauban then emits a wave. All the stored damage would be splited between all enemies within the area of effect, with guaranted viral proc.

4°)Nothing to add

[Xepthrichros]

If Ember rework is going to keep Fireball as first skill, can we improve it a bit more?

In addition to being a small target nuke, add the wall of flame, or "hedge" of flame, given how short it is, from the current Fire Blast and put it on Fireball, so wherever the Fireball impacts leaves a hedge of flame behind.

 

But just make that flame hedge taller already, so it looks cooler or more impressive, like a wall. Wall of flame should be guaranteed to set on fire any enemy that walks through it. Shooting through wall of flame should grant heat damage to weapons, and also add some damage reduction to players standing within the ring of flame cos the flame melts / deflects incoming bullets and the visual glare of the fire also affects enemy's aiming at you. Turning Ember's fireball into a dual purpose, small aoe target nuke + small protection bubble + heat-based volt shield.

 

As for the new fire blast, please, please, please, keep the knockback when we cast it. If the knockback is removed, the ability will feel wimpier than the fire Eximus units, and we're supposed to be the Tenno, with superior technology. 

[Hypernaut1]

Throwing meteors is SOoo generic compared to spontaneously combusting enemies. Really disappointed. 

They practically made a new frame with Embers skin. That's unfair to players that were happy with Ember, but just wanted improvements. 

Other players are happy because they never cared for Ember or her playstyle and are practically getting a new frame for free. 

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, Blexander said:

I like this idea better than the wave that comes out once you expel her new 2.

It's not the flame effect, it's the meteor itself. Basically, "why?". Out of all the things that simply scream "inferno", why a meteor?

I don't get it either. Why is she spawning burning rocks from the sky now? Why not even just have the enemies catch on fire like a firestarter? It also makes her powers seem more like magic than anything, although they have been going that route lately.

[Hypernaut1]

I will accept the energy drain if it causes a massive nuke scaling off of how much energy she had left. As long as the numbers are big enough, it might be like an extra ability for her

[DroopingPuppy]

Ha, finally Ember seems workable. Can I rescue her from her coffin? I didn't even touched her since the removal of Ember on March 2018.

Also Vauban. I didn't think you guys are ever think about him either.

[BaIthazar]

10 hours ago, ZarZuf said:

In what alternate bizarro universe does Hydroid have something similar to World On Fire?

His Undertow.

[ZarZuf]

3 minutes ago, BaIthazar said:

His Undertow.

That is definitely a huge stretch

[BaIthazar]

22 minutes ago, ZarZuf said:

That is definitely a huge stretch

stretch or not, it ticks all the boxes

[Sebith]

I'm not really into that recent UI bars trend. I would rather have my brain micro-manage battlefield than UI bar. Instead of adding new combat elements to the game we got new UI micro-management elements to distract our brain from combat. It can work maybe for slower tactical games, but in the hoard shooter game i should be focused on action on the screen not UI bar. If something interesting/important happen on screen (which is a good thing, right?) I'll be punished, because I didn't look at UI bar and my Ember overheated. Fighting our own abilities... I would really like to have developers focus on adding new things to the combat not distractions from the combat - making combat trivial even more.

In addition to that, i don't really see the point of having weaker and stronger version of abilities. Why should I use 1 Tesla Drone instead of 4? I hope it's not because of that juggling animation... please, i don't wanna believe that was the reason... 😅

Everything else looks interesting, but that new Heat melting armor change will be important for Ember rework. So until I see details, can't say anything.

[Obe-Ron-Kenobi]

6 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Throwing meteors is SOoo generic compared to spontaneously combusting enemies. Really disappointed. 

They practically made a new frame with Embers skin. That's unfair to players that were happy with Ember, but just wanted improvements. 

Other players are happy because they never cared for Ember or her playstyle and are practically getting a new frame for free. 

Im curious as to which abilities are you most upset to see go and why?

[v2099]

a few things comes to mind with this rework

let's start with WoF, with the current kit in high level content where you can't kill enemies in less than 5 ticks

- without augment, ember still has a chance to burn enemies benefiting other effects [e.g condition overload]

- with augment, the knockdown makes ember a better CC as enemies downed means they are not attacking

 

with the new WoF it's a nice aoe nuke, but doesn't quite say WORLD on fire

 

now the 2nd and 3rd abilities

the current effects help to make ember more viable in high leveler content nothing much more, but it does make her more than a "press 4 to win" frame

the new kit makes things complicated as you are required to take care of multiple resources. managing the bar at the same time as your energy i feel will turn off alot of newer players.

i don't particularly see how the new kit makes her more of a "fire queen"

i think i'd love to see something like:-

the fire bar is used for to cast a secondary spell type

fireball - as current kit, hold down the skill to throw a incendiary grenade

fire blast - as current kit, but you can hold down the skill and drain the bar to create a fire wall base on your aiming(you'll be locked in place)

Word on fire - as current kit, or hold down the skill to drain all current bar and NUKE everything like the new kit [BUT instead of meteors use the thermia fractures to make fire gushing out from the floor they stand on and melt them] with extra damage  

[magerampage]

Not sure if this has been said yet, but will vauban be able to strip shields/gain shield or armor buffs from corpus enemies?

To me, vauban always stood out as a corpus-counter frame. Bastille would stay up unless a nullifier got to the middle, instead of destroying it on contact like frost bubbles, and both bastille and vortex delt magnetic procs. clumping of enemies with vortex also allowed for extremely effective gas procs. Even his prime trailer had him kicking corpus butt. 

Since some minelayer functions seem lackluster (speed boost being used to troll, nail grenade not doing much), it may be a way to bring back some of these elements.

Old concussion grenade was something I used often to get rid of guardian/disruptor/eximus auras, and I think having that would be better than nail grenade.

The rework in its current state is incredible. Can't wait for release

[Colyeses]

17 hours ago, ZarZuf said:

Equinox's Maim aura does very very little damage.

Ember's ult ranges from 400 - 800 and can only hit 5 enemies per tick.

Equinox' ult has a base damage of 150, so that looks very low. BUT! It comes with 7 ticks of 35% of the initial damage. That's an additional 245% damage, which, added to the initial damage, comes up to 517.5 damage. Adding another 20% from Provoke, that's well over 600 damage. Base damage. No strength involved, which would have accelerated scaling due to provoke, also not counting peaceful provocation, which is utterly terrifying. And then it has the explosion. And it controls enemies. And it's slash, which often works better than fire.

Don't diss my twilit arbiter just because world on fire is a trash ult.