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[DE]Connor

Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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6 minutes ago, -Bv-Concarne said:

I'd take that compromise, corrosive can be strip king all it wants but heat not being able to melt armor in any way doesn't make sense.

corrosive already strips armor and viral already halves HP. there is absolutely no reason for heat to do either of these things.

Edited by EinheriarJudith

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9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

corrosive already strips armor and viral already halves HP. there is absolutely no reason for heat to do either of these things.

I mean heat halving health doesn't make sense, I don't even know where you got the idea.

Heat being able to melt armor definitely does makes sense though. Everything has a melting point, you know.

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26 minutes ago, -Bv-Concarne said:

I mean heat halving health doesn't make sense, I don't even know where you got the idea.

Heat being able to melt armor definitely does makes sense though. Everything has a melting point, you know.

its literally in the OP's post. he wants heat to halve armor like  viral does to HP.

i didnt say it didnt make sense i also know everything has a melting point. heat does not need this at all. use corrosive or viral. heat needs its DoT damage to increase with its duration or for the highest application of it to overwrite weaker ones or both.

Edited by EinheriarJudith

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It will only be great if it is stacked. For example, when 2 stacks of fire we will have -75% armor. Otherwise, it is better to use corrosion.

Edited by zhellon

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On 2019-10-04 at 11:06 AM, [DE]Connor said:

FIRE BLAST
Like Fireball, this ability remained the same function-wise, with a few usability buffs: Casting time has been greatly reduced, and the ability now strips armor from nearby enemies, scaling in effectiveness based on current Immolation levels.

In my opinion, Fire Blast is currently Ember's least useful ability. The entire concept is flawed.

In its current and proposed form, it is worse than Accelerant for crowd control (CC). This is because blasting enemies away from you makes them harder to damage with weapons compared to stunning them in-place. I have seen it repeated so many times that a dead enemy is better than a CCed enemy and that effective damage-dealing is therefore usually preferable CC. It is certainly true that with the current abundance of ability-nullifying enemies, CC is less relevant that it used to be. However, in terms of preventing player death, it does scale with enemy level better than tanking or bursting enemies down before they burst you down, specifically in situations where ability-nullifiers are not common or can be dealt with by other means and enemy damage is so high that one stray shot will down a player (high level Grineer are a good example). CC is now more niche than before, but still relevant. At the end of the day though, even in situations where CC is desirable, CC that makes damaging enemies easier (Accelerant does this by stunning them in-place AND making them more vulnerable to damage) is better than CC that make killing enemies harder (Fire Blast). With Accelerant's removal, Ember loses her best source of DPS while retaining an inferior form of CC. This does not help Ember's usefulness in higher-level content.

Fire Blast is also a bad defensive ability. Excluding enemies from an area works well for Frost's Snow Globe specifically because SG provides full protection from damage originating outside its radius (for a limited duration, but it can be recast within that duration if needed). Fire Blast does not provide such protection. What's the point of blasting enemies away if that means you and your teammates momentarily lose aim at said enemies, while the enemies themselves can kill you from range as soon as they get up?

To make matters worse, the knockback does not work on enemies that are already in an on-fire animation (setting people on fire is kind of Ember's thing) making Fire Blast not only bad but also inconsistent.

Finally, while I am a huge fan of the damage buffs Ember can give with her augments, Fire Blast's current buff does not scale with Strength and forces you to remain in a small area, making it much weaker and less useful than Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy.

@[DE]Connor As it stands and as currently proposed, Fire Blast adds nothing significant to Ember's kit for dealing with higher level enemies (above lvl 100 or so). On the other hand, Accelerant (expecially with Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy) gives Ember and her team an extremely powerful damage buff (more powerful than Chroma's; see my other post on this page for details) against unarmored enemies, including situations with 4x CP or other means of armor removal. As such, it makes even more sense to keep Accelerant in the picture if heat damage is going to be reworked to strip armor (we all like synergy right?). I am extremely disappointed that Ember's rework proposes removing her best ability and keeping her worst one (albeit with slight changes). If you have to completely change one of Ember's abilities, please make that ability Fire Blast, not Accelerant. Alternatively, keep both since Fire Blast will now remove armor, synergizing with Accelerant. Whatever you do, please do not remove Accelerant.

 

 

Edited by Cornelius.EE
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While i am glad they are finally allowing fire procs to stack like slash and toxin (as i feel it should have since ever), i feel it should not strip armour as i feel it would step on corrosives toes, if it has to do additional things alongisde its dot then maybe it could have a chance to apply a weaker fire proc to nearby enemies that dont have a fire proc on them.

If armour stripping on fire proc must exist i feel it should either be exclusive to Ember or altenatively a mod like hunter munitions like how it can apply slash procs on crits but instead having fire strip armour (though if that would be a warframe mod or weapon mod i dont know)  or as part of a elemental themed set bonus.

Alternatively maybe Ember could have a unique additional passive bonuses for Ember that could cause all of Embers fire damage and dots to partially ignore armour/resistance. If not that then again as a set bonus for an elemental themed set of mods.

Additionally i also feel that this new ember passive that grants ability damage should either be wider (about 30ft) and be affected by ability range or keep the current passive range but allow it to apply to enemies you set on fire with Weapons/Abilities regardless of range aswell.

Also another minor quibble/suggestion, i feel that all elemental themed frames should have some level of inherent resistance to their associated damage type.

I cant say much on Vauban as i dont really play him much, but how about instead of a boost pad, maybe a healing/gas bomb that could create a healing/damage aura for a time?

Also Nail grenade applying puncture sounds meh, how about having it create weak points like Banshee does on those it hits, or maybe have it be just a debuff to damage instead of puncture so it can stack with puncture?.

Edited by MrKapow

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The changes all sound great, the only question I would have is, even if its functionally a different ability altogether can Ember's ult keep the name world on fire? its a really cool name, it still makes sense looking at what the ability does, and it holds a bit more weight than Inferno

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6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

its literally in the OP's post. he wants heat to halve armor like  viral does to HP.

i didnt say it didnt make sense i also know everything has a melting point. heat does not need this at all. use corrosive or viral. heat needs its DoT damage to increase with its duration or for the highest application of it to overwrite weaker ones or both.

Well heat should not halve health like viral does, but if it halves armor like viral halves health then that would be a good compromise for heat and corrosive.

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45 minutes ago, -Bv-Concarne said:

Well heat should not halve health like viral does, but if it halves armor like viral halves health then that would be a good compromise for heat and corrosive.

that isnt a compromise. you not only want to strip armor but pull it down to where a few proc and its gone. that is unbalanced. heat already deals a crazy amount of damage to red HP on top of its CC. few weapons have corrosive or viral as its base damage (wonder why plague kripath is so broken?). you can already achieve a corrosive/viral spec.

Edited by EinheriarJudith

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Okay, now that the discussion shifted to heat procs I guess I should give my opinion.

Heat will probably not melt armor on impact, that would make it a corrosive+damage proc, even if it was a lower percentage like 15%. I also believe it won't become a "armor viral" proc, even gas procs are somewhat different than toxin. If I were to guess what DE is going to do I assume that it is a percentage, like 7,5%, for each tick. That could work, as it wouldn't make it better than corrosive for weak targets but for harder enemies and weapons with lower status chance this could work better. Example:

1 corrosive proc = 25% armor strip of current armor.

1 heat proc = 45% armor strip through the course of 6 seconds. (the percentage of each tick is based on the armor during the first tick, so there is no diminishing returns).

So for weapons with low status chance (10-12%) or low fire rate (Grinlok) if you land just one heat proc it will be better than 1 corrosive proc on the long run, considering that it will be unlikely to proc sufficent corrosive procs to strip all armor. This would make heat an alternative for weapons with low status chance, and make them better against more tanky enemies. It would also keep corrosive relevant, as high status weapons like Supra (30% base) would proc more often, giving more armor strip at a much quicker rate.

To counter the reduction in armor you could make it so that the damage dealt with each tick gets reduced by a percentage, 16.6% (so it gets reduced to 0 at the end), to emulate the fact that the flame is fading (maybe Ember being the only exception).

Edited by HolySeraphin
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But speaking of elements, for the love of God give elemental frames some resistance to their elements, like Frost having 25% resistance to cold, Ember 25% to heat and so on. It even became a MEME through the years.

10525119.jpg

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Tbh reworking heat procs only highlighted one thing, damage needs some serious overhaul. They could have improved frost, magnetic, explosive, puncture or impact as well but since the only thing that obvioulsy matters now is more armor stripping, perhaps changing how armor is absurdly scaling would help too.

Buffing shields could also make magnetic more relevant, buffing enemies damage at melee could make frost more relevant too etc. Magnetic or puncture are basically worthless, many players even remove impact damage thanks to rivens, gas and poison are only redundant (one being only a better version than the other). We still don't have any physical damage status mods, some elements have cumulative effects, some don't (which makes status build/weapons irrelevant at best), and finally why i should care about anything else than viral+slash as long as i'll be able to bypass all defense mechanics with such build ?

And i won't even talk about the huge damage discrepancy between status and hybrid/critical builds. Damage, armor and shields are completely unbalanced and need more than a simple tweak.

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1 hour ago, HolySeraphin said:

But speaking of elements, for the love of God give elemental frames some resistance to their elements, like Frost having 25% resistance to cold, Ember 25% to heat and so on. It even became a MEME through the years.

10525119.jpg

I've always wondered why this isn't a thing from the beginning. Perhaps even immunity to these sources of damage. Also Saryn should have resistance to Toxin and Volt to electricity.

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I've heard this from many other people, but I'm pretty sure that DE doesnt want to give certain warframes resistances to elements and such. I may not be correct though.

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These coming changes are great and I am very excited, the buffs to fire procs are so welcome. I hope you guys are not swayed by some of the nonsense in here. I will happily trade accelerant for the new DR ability, it's infinitely better. The armor strip and cast speed buff to 3 is going to make fire blast so much more useable. Good stuff, can't wait to try it!

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what do i think about vauban rework so far?1 abilitie shoud not stick to enemys but shoud follow vauban and vauban can stick them to alies ,pets included,second abilitie must be only one thing is not pratical to switch in a fast paced game,becouse while you doing that you can just die unlike other frames that use similar abilities,i sugest just leaving bastille and vortex as seperate abilities,and the grenade thing moves to second abilitie ,i want a warframe that is practical-powerfull at the same time,i dont want unessesary stuff that is not going to be used,sometimes less is more,forgive me for my bad english but im sure yall understand 

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14 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

that isnt a compromise. you not only want to strip armor but pull it down to where a few proc and its gone. that is unbalanced. heat already deals a crazy amount of damage to red HP on top of its CC. 

Not unbalanced because armor is widely known to have extremely fast scaling, to the point that grineer are significantly the tankiest faction you meet (sentients, which have armor and damage reduction or are conditionally immune, could be first but they're rarer). Also heats cc isn't notably impactful and doesn't deal as much damage to health as toxin does, and it still probably won't deal as much when it's changed to stack like other dots. If anything that's gonna bring it up to par with them.

14 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

few weapons have corrosive or viral as its base damage (wonder why plague kripath is so broken?).

Even fewer weapons have innate gas damage, that doesn't mean it's considered overpowered. And alot of the weapons with innate corrosive or viral aren't even close to meta, kripath is the only one but that's mostly because it's a zaw melee and those are extremely strong if built right.

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Questions not directly related to her abilities:

Will she get a signature weapon bonus? Ignis would probably be the obvious choice but in the past heat sword was my favourite weapon maybe something like additional base heat damage could makle it viable.

Can she get some kind of neck adjustment? Some skin combinations don´t fit together (especially the vermillion body and magesty helmet)

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On 2019-10-05 at 3:23 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Sooo, who noticed that it was my passive? ^^

 

On 2019-10-05 at 3:49 AM, Maka.Bones said:

I didn't know that it was *your* passive, but i definitely remembered that they used one of the better passives which were suggested on the forums lol. I'm happy they used your idea though!

I seem to recall I've been suggesting this very change to her passive for quite some time now, but I'm not going to fight over authorship in the think tank that is the Forums. I'm just happy Ember's getting a proactive passive.

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I'm not an expert with numbers and builds, but I like tactical fight more, so ember was always sort of boring frame for me, but I'm not sure if I like this version. 

I can imagine that if ember is on fire, she does more of damage, but from what I understand the passive is bound to having to use range mods a lot - and that seems too much dictating modding the frame, so I don't like it that much. 

I never used 1 and 3rd ability and it is still the same. I used 4th ability for CC mainly with mod and it is gone. 

I didn't like 2nd ability which adds some elemental damage to others, because I like if the frame works well for itself and adding more fire dps to already fire dps didn't make sense. 

But still I wish it would be possible to add something - to escalate the fire ability, so it would do more of dps in time. 

So what I would change:

if ember is using world of fire, she can be doing more of CC and also more of fire dps generally (something like valkyr 4th ability). 

I like that idea of stripping armor - so if she overheats, she could strip armor and add some bonus damage, then it will start again. 

I like the idea that she has more of armor at the beginning and less dps, and the more dps she will build the less dps, and she will lose armor with burst of fire. 

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This mainline will be at the very end of this month,so 31. right?
Really skeptical about the Vauban rework,and I doubt any common sense will get to Scott,or any of this discussion.Even though this isn't the feedback section of the forum.
But..to be honest... our feedback,very rarely had any impact whatsoever..

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3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

I seem to recall I've been suggesting this very change to her passive for quite some time now, but I'm not going to fight over authorship in the think tank that is the Forums. I'm just happy Ember's getting a proactive passive.

Parallel evolution exists, not going to argue with anyone about it either ^^ Great minds think alike, I would guess.

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Just chiming in to say I love the proposed changes to heat.

But as an alternative to armor stripping what about dealing bonus damage to armored enemies once they are on fire, and increasing the longer or more stacks that are applied.

Imagine a knight in full plate armor walking into an oven. That armor would heat up and burn them alive. This makes a lot more sense than simply melting armor away, and would benefit the proc while they are armored and the damage from the element if they lose armor from another source.

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On 2019-10-08 at 11:57 PM, Proslackernifty said:

  It's not good design

I very strongly disagree. 

The problem we have with damage caster warframes is a balancing aspect. With abilities having no cd, and with energy being so abundant, almost all abilities have had their direct damage output reduced. With Ember being just about 100% direct damage, she felt that hit the hardest. 

We can't have another Saryn or Mesa. They destroy the game for those they get matched with due to their ability to consistently and with almost no effort wipe massive areas. The flipside is that we have had a few frames whose damaging abilities have become negligible after level 25. 

That is why these auxilliary machanisms are being put into place. It works for Nidus, it's working for Gauss too. These mechanics aren't for the purpose of complicating a simple thing or punishing bad players, they're for leveraging more power. 

If that meter augments her damage properly, it can be her ticket to viability while simultaneously sidestepping the pitfall that Saryn and Mesa went into. It can be a perfectly tailored solution to a moderately tricky issue.

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5 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

I very strongly disagree. 

The problem we have with damage caster warframes is a balancing aspect. With abilities having no cd, and with energy being so abundant, almost all abilities have had their direct damage output reduced. With Ember being just about 100% direct damage, she felt that hit the hardest. 

We can't have another Saryn or Mesa. They destroy the game for those they get matched with due to their ability to consistently and with almost no effort wipe massive areas. The flipside is that we have had a few frames whose damaging abilities have become negligible after level 25. 

That is why these auxilliary machanisms are being put into place. It works for Nidus, it's working for Gauss too. These mechanics aren't for the purpose of complicating a simple thing or punishing bad players, they're for leveraging more power. 

If that meter augments her damage properly, it can be her ticket to viability while simultaneously sidestepping the pitfall that Saryn and Mesa went into. It can be a perfectly tailored solution to a moderately tricky issue.

If we can't have another Saryn or Mesa, I'm fine with that.  But Ember, after her rework, isn't going to fit in anywhere.  Gauss, for example, doesn't fit in anywhere.  He doesn't buff, doesn't tank, doesn't do good damage, and he has an annoying meter.  That's the direction Ember is heading.  She'll be annoying to play while providing nothing to the squad.  She won't wipe a map, she'll annoy people by pushing them back with her third ability, and she won't be tanky (still).  So no one is going to play her unless they want to troll their squad with her third ability.  None of her new abilities stand out as class defining.  She'll just collect more dust and wait for another rework that may never happen.

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