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Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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Posted (edited)

As expected, any amount of micro managing is too much and unfair for the veterans of Warframe. I guess Gauss was a good lesson on how any amount of building up of a resource bar is too difficult so they opted for a system where you have to maintain it within a specific range so that people can't ask for it to be faster or slower. I'll reserve my judgement until execution but it sounds interesting compared to how lazy they made Gauss.

Edited by RX-3DR
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Why does ember need to be punished for being too much on fire? Why not make the 3 worth casting on its own. Losing all energy is way too much of a punishment.

Why does ember's 3 need to ragdoll enemies away when both her 4 and her passive want the enemies to be grouped together/grouped around her. This is especially weird since we'll be forced to cast the 3 or we wont cast anything at all for a while. The ragdoll on that needs to go.

Vauban's cast speed needs to go way up. There didnt really seem a point to even casting the orbital strike when the melee groundfinisher Rebecca was doing did way more damage way quicker.

Overall the abilities certainly look cool but dont sound very exciting in practice.

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30 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Sadly Vauban rework seems to be great in theory but in practice not that good, reason for that is the fact that enemies that can outright ignore CC abities exist, without them in game this would be soild rework but sadly we have them in game, because of that vauban wont be played in any higher tier content(like arbitrations).

As a whole this rework is improvement to current vauban in every way but its nowhere near best reworks we had in warframe because vauban rework doesnt provide him with survivability, there are enemies that can outright ignore some of strognest abilitites it has and it has no scaling, people will have fun with this rework for few weeks then they will return to frames that provide them with the survivablity or damage scaling(and whose abilities wont be ignored by enemies),

I think that’s why weapons exist. He’s certainly a lot more viable now though, scaling damage and cc and all that. But I think the intent is to keep him squishy to encourage further use of abilities. (Also unless you’re doing arbies enemies that can ignore abilities are few and far between)

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3 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Vauban's cast speed needs to go way up. There didnt really seem a point to even casting the orbital strike when the melee groundfinisher Rebecca was doing did way more damage way quicker.

It’s single target though.

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Vauban's new kit looks fantastic for solo play, and might be decent with a group that wants to forgo AoE nuke-frames.

Doesn't really address that for many players, oft times there's no one alive to use his powers against to begin with when you have said nuke-frame on your team*.

*No, not because they can nuke, but their ability to do with such speed, frequency, and sustainability that anything (or anyone) else becomes moot.

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I don't want this to come off as over critical or whatever but I feel like this NEEDS to be said.

You gave Vauban a mine that does exactly what vortex does but doesn't linger making it objectively inferior.

I have no idea if the numbers for those abilities are not done yet because that damage buff is nonexistent, then a speed pad that probably would have made more sense on Gauss than Vauban but that is whatever, again with the numbers but that "Nail Grenade" does almost no damage and Rebecca wasn't even running negative power strength, she was at 130%.

His 3rd and 4th abilities have ridiculous cast times for no apparent reason and I get that "No frame had more neglect in their animations than Vauban" but cast times is not the answer.

His 3rd ability on top of having that cast time also has a wind up time which is essentially forcing you to use that with vortex or that "Sticky Ripline" ability and that is just forced synergy honestly, that is actually taking away gameplay options.

I love the changes to his 4th ability overall but the cast time is objectively a nerf especially considering it was in the game before with a 1 handed cast animation that was quick and it obviously was not broken so I really do not see why the cast time is necessary.

His 1 is cool too I guess.

I also don't like how (going back to the numbers thing) Vauban is this thicker armor clad Warframe but he has 100 armor and no real survivability outside of crowd control.

I mean no disrespect but this rework is seriously disappointing in some aspects.

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So you're nerfing Ember's 4th in every way. It'll work within line-of-sight? That's freaking awful. Line of sight is an objective marked nerf compared to what World on Fire currently is. Not to mention line-of-sight based abilities(see Hildryn and Nidus) are derpy at the best of times. It takes a frame meant to completely dominate lower level(40 and below) missions and able to one-shot most mobs at long range through any obstacles, and turns her into "I hope the line of sight mechanic works" and having less ability to do what she was made to do; be a nightmare for light targets.

Also this is just me, but we don't need another meter-based frame. Let alone on an existing one. It's clunky and if filling the meter blows ALL your energy then that's just gonna be frustrating. "Use abilities when you might not need to, or lose all your energy" is a crappy ultimatum.

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Gerade eben schrieb RWBY-WhiteRose:

It’s single target though.

look at the stream again, she did a ground finisher on the clumped up ball of enemies and murdered all of them.

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I want to add that Immolation already punish you by Overheating because I guess that mean that you lose your heat counter and energy so that mean that you lose your DR and since you lose all energy you just become a squishy ember . 

 

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41 minutes ago, Phaeronimus said:

1. Tesla:

Probably the best addition to his kit atm,along with his new ultimate where Bastille and Vortex are merged. Reliable mobile crowd control,that doesn't disappear after a single use

How...? Lol.

 

Yeah Bastille is definitely one of the best abilities in his kit.... But how is Tesla the best addition? 

You could just use Bastille instead of Tesla, and then we don't need Tesla ever again.... At all. 

 

43 minutes ago, Phaeronimus said:

3.Orbital strike: 

The jump in air animation lock...for the love of God...our already squishy Vauban didn't really needed an animation that locks his movement,introducing him to certain death.The best unique thing Vauban ever had was that all of his abilities were ready on the go...simple throwing animation..that doesn't even stop reloading.
This wouldn't be an issue,if he were given a defensive/survivability mechanic trough an ability...but..we all know how that tale ends..
The dmg is suppose to scale,it's a good thing,but imho, this was the only option if they wanted this ability to really be the damage  portion of his new kit.

4.Bastille/Vortex

Once again,the animation lock...just why? 

For all of you out there,typing:"We don't know anything until we try it ingame." Just stop...we've seen what it does ingame,or should I say,what it doesn't do ingame.

Hate me and bash me all you want. ❤️

Yeah I can understand disdain for the animation lock... 

But think about this: use Bastille/vortex once, and nothing can attack you. Then use orbital strike to finish off the enemies. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk~

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

(I think the Speed pads were added for synergy with Grendel, and the ability to create Grendel pinball.)

Grendel-ball needs to be a game-mode. 

 

Let's be honest here though.... they probably also added them for xandypants lol

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

It's a toggle damage reduction; it's not her passive. It also deals burst damage when you turn off the toggle

I know it is not her passive, I was commenting on how the gameplay DE seems to be intending for it is entirely passive. DE wants you to be trying to 'balance' your meter to keep up the DR and buffs, but you also have to use your 3 to make sure you don't explode. It is very clearly something that they intended to be active 100% of the time that you are in combat. That said how DE has designed that balancing act seems questionable at best, even Gauss who has very little gameplay connected to his meter (as long as you go fast you are good) has more interaction in his kit with the meter (having abilities that both increase and decrease meter and a variety of ways to increase his meter). If they are going to connect a meter to an ability that is intended to be active at all times then there should at least be some interaction with toggling it on and off. Which leads me to...

31 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Also @DrBorris when you turn off the toggle, it deals burst damage based on how much the meter had built up

So... it does basically the same thing as her 3, just probably with a higher focus on damage. They also both reduce your meter. Please tell me you see the issue here.

 

41 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Her passive is "the more ignited enemies you have, the more ability strength she deals"

Also her actual passive is going to be mostly useless because...

  1. Any enemy within 10 meters is already dead
  2. Her three actively throws enemies farther away from you

 

The Ember rework is less of a "this is bad" problem and more of a "this is really the best you can do?" problem. Her proposed passive completely misses the point many suggestions have had with similar concepts by having it not tie at all in with her kit. The meter she got is barely even one dimensional and takes up an ability slot. Then her 1 and 4 basically do the same thing, but her 4 will obviously just do it better.

This is it? There has been such a variety in Ember proposals and what we get feels like a mismatched modge podge.

Edited by DrBorris
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

look at the stream again, she did a ground finisher on the clumped up ball of enemies and murdered all of them.

I stand corrected. It’s 4am over here

That was a vauban thing though IIRC

also it primes with heat procs debuffing them so there’s that, will armor strip in the future too

Edited by RWBY-WhiteRose

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The passive seems good.

Abilities seem dependent on how the heat proc changes turn out. 

I'm currently on the fence about energy loss of such an extreme caliber. Letting efficiency have an impact on that might be the right choice.

The one issue I can see about the new survivability is that you have to be able to stay at that sweet spot of durability all the time or else high level enemies will just one-shot you at any other point.

Visually... I wanna say things are better... I mean the static wof flames are gone. But yeah the fire on her head around her body arn't quite there for me PERSONALLY. Maybe give some of it physics so it isn't early xbox 360 fire idk... Certainly an upgrade though. The actual model of ember prime has always been beautiful, so no complaints there. 

Those are my thoughts so far. I obviously won't know anything for sure until I've put a bit of hours into it when it comes out. 

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I'm almost on board with the rework. A notable thing that I like(if that's the way it's intended to work) is Fire Blast not knocking away enemies who are Heat proc CC-ed. DR is nice, and having Heat DoT stack makes Accelerant no longer necessary.

However,

Fireball still has minimal use aside from charging the meter. The passive has a pitiful range, if it's shorter than vacuum, it's not good. Inferno is very underwhelming, from having it be target cast, to the coverage, to the design. It's like Vauban and her have the exact same ability. There is also STILL an issue with counter-synergy. Her passive needs enemies to be close to her so she can gain a PS buff, but most of her kit knocks them away. With DR, she doesn't need to worry about dying to a stray bullet, but then an issue arises from the micromanaging you'll need to do to maintain Overheat at an acceptable level as to not lose all your energy.

I know all of these are subject to change in one way or another, but I actually have some hope for her rework being acceptable in the current meta.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I know it is not her passive, I was commenting on how the gameplay DE seems to be intending for it is entirely passive. DE wants you to be trying to 'balance' your meter to keep up the DR and buffs, but you also have to use your 3 to make sure you don't explode. It is very clearly something that they intended to be active 100% of the time that you are in combat. That said how DE has designed that balancing act seems questionable at best, even Gauss who has very little gameplay connected to his meter (as long as you go fast you are good) has more interaction in his kit with the meter (having abilities that both increase and decrease meter and a variety of ways to increase his meter). If they are going to connect a meter to an ability that is intended to be active at all times then there should at least be some interaction with toggling it on and off. Which leads me to...

So... it does basically the same thing as her 3, just probably with a higher focus on damage. They also both reduce your meter. Please tell me you see the issue here.

 

Also her actual passive is going to be mostly useless because...

  1. Any enemy within 10 meters is already dead
  2. Her three actively throws enemies farther away from you

 

The Ember rework is less of a "this is bad" problem and more of a "this is really the bets you can do?" problem. Her proposed passive completely misses the point many suggestions have had with similar concepts by having it does not tie at all in with her kit. The meter she got is barely even one dimensional and takes up an ability slot. Then her 1 and 4 basically do the same thing, but her 4 will obviously just do it better.

This is it? There has been such a variety in Ember proposals and what we get feels like a mismatched modge podge.

I'll summarize an answer to all of your issues with this:

Her 4 didn't kill all of those enemies... It was her 2nd toggle, that detonated her 4 and killed those enemies. Her 2nd toggle killed the enemies, when it consumed her gauge. 

 

Her 1 and 4 build up the heat gauge, and spread fire procs to more enemies to build up her power strength...  her 2 and 3 use/consume her heat gauge. 

 

Her heat gauge doubles as damage reduction, and damage amplification. It also works as a resource to cast & empower certain abilities

 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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Vauban's Nail grenade needs an bit of tweak, since pure damage abilities isn't that great at this actual state of warframe, maybe some flinch, knockback or status effect could help there
Ember's fireball already catch that concept by amplifying damage (replacement from losing Accelerant, but whatever)

talking about Ember's Fireball, how that interaction will work with her augment? after all, holding the button while using the augment emit an "buff wave" instead of fireball, since now the base ability will have some late game utility and charged fireball could do some trick with its increased range

 

the rest needs to be tested in-game

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5 minutes ago, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

I think that’s why weapons exist. He’s certainly a lot more viable now though, scaling damage and cc and all that. But I think the intent is to keep him squishy to encourage further use of abilities. (Also unless you’re doing arbies enemies that can ignore abilities are few and far between)

The fact that weapons exist is not an excuse, it it was vauban wouldnt need rework I mean I could as well use magus repair operator arcane for survivability and magus lockdown for CC, I shouldnt be forced to use those things to fix problems frame has.

I do agree that this rework is major improvement in every way, I will give it a chance, probably will fool around with speed boost stuff for few  weeks then never use vauban again until next rework because I know people will call for another rework in the future, I was hoping this rework would put vauban on par with best frames since people were asking for this rework for so long sadly it didnt happen

 

its not bad rework its just that its also not great rework either(its not Pablo tier rework), there are better alternatives.

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I am very interested in how Ember is turning out. I don't play her, but I can see some tremendous melee potential here with this rework. 

As for Vauban, looks very useful and well-rounded without sacrificing his identity as Mr. Crowd Control. Won't play him though since it's not my style.

I hope the crow is tasty for those mocking and doubting Scott.

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If you guys don’t like her 1 can we give it to chroma?   I’d write erotic ballas/Clem fan fiction  for embers new 1 over the current sad sack 1 chroma has.  

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Oh, big joice. Ember joined the ranks of foolproof Frames with a passive as a skill, generic DR and inbuilt Armor strip, manageable for every player with 43 chromosomes. The avarage Tenno will wet his pants.

At least Fire got a look at, this is something.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'll summarize all of your issues with this:

Her 4 didn't kill all of those enemies... It was her 2nd toggle, that detonated her 4 and killed those enemies. Her 2nd toggle killed the enemies, when it consumed her gauge. 

 

Her 1 and 4 build up the heat gauge, and spread fire procs to more enemies to build up her post strength...  her 2 and 3 use/consume her heat gauge.

So Ember's second ability turns on a meter, then reactivating it does AoE damage and reduces your meter.

Her third ability deals AoE damage and reduces your meter.

 

Come on now, you see it, right? Even if you say that her passive needs to be an ability, you can't deny that her three does the exact same thing (besides not requiring meter, but I can't think of any situation where you wouldn't want your meter active when you would also want to hit three).

Edited by DrBorris
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3 minutes ago, Culaio said:

The fact that weapons exist is not an excuse, it it was vauban wouldnt need rework I mean I could as well use magus repair operator arcane for survivability and magus lockdown for CC, I shouldnt be forced to use those things to fix problems frame has.

I do agree that this rework is major improvement in every way, I will give it a chance, probably will fool around with speed boost stuff for few  weeks then never use vauban again until next rework because I know people will call for another rework in the future, I was hoping this rework would put vauban on par with best frames since people were asking for this rework for so long sadly it didnt happen

 

its not bad rework its just that its also not great rework either(its not Pablo tier rework), there are better alternatives.

It’s one of the best ones that Pablo didn’t turn out IMO, but response accepted

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

So Ember's second ability turns on a meter, then reactivating it does AoE damage and reduces your meter.

Her third ability deals AoE damage and reduces your meter.

 

Come on now, you see it, right? Even if you say that her passive needs to be an ability you can't deny that her three does the exact same thing except it doesn't require you to have your meter active (and I can't think of any situation where you wouldn't want your meter active when you would also want to hit three).

Ember's 2nd turns on her damage reduction, and her overheat gauge. 

Why do you keep calling it her passive? I might've suggested overheat to be her passive on some of my posts (along with other players) but that's not what it is now. Her passive now increases her power strength based on how many enemies are ignited near her.  They decided to make ignition it into her 2nd power while incorporating overheat into it, so let's please stay in the same page here. 

How exactly does her three (fireblast) do the exact same thing as her 2(ignition) or even her passive(spicy)? Her three (fire blast) strips armor, and knocks down... How is that the same as (ignition) variable DR, and power detonation... Or (Spicy) increased power strength, based on #of ignited enemies? 

 

Her 2 essentially *stores heat* to use as a fiery armor/DR, and then releases all of the stored heat as damage whenever you toggle it off. 

Edited by Maka.Bones

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