Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

[HolySeraphin]

On 2019-11-07 at 9:23 PM, Gabranth2 said:

Ember gets Affinity for 4th skill when there is no enemy nearby at no energy cost. It's possible to spam skill to get an infinite amount of Affinity even if it's kinda time consuming.

You have the same thing with Khora's 3 if I'm not mistaken. The only problem is if people start using macros like a certain user.

[ZarakkiZenn]

Ember was my first love in warframe. I got a fashion frame I like now, on account of a color palette I didn't have before her "throw her in the trashcan" rework, and I was determined to play her if she was even remotely decent.

Counter-intuitive micromanagement, is how I'd describe Ember; also, a frame of two worlds.

At lower levels, you'll want to spam 1 and 4. At high levels, keep her 2 active and only use her 3. I'm not surprised, now that I took her for  test drive, that most people I saw using Ember since the rework did nothing but hit 4. I'd really much rather do away with the "tap twice to win" mechanic that Ember's been promoting. By that I mean her old Room on Fire and her current 2. The frame would feel much more fluid if all her abilities decreased the meter.

It's a question of numbers: a flat increase and decrease, to an experienced Ember player, means they get into a rhythm and don't need to look at the meter to know what to do next. Perhaps I didn't get to that point but right now it feels much too punishing to use anything other than Fire Blast, resulting in a "half frame" or "tap twice to win". Press 4 to win is, of course, how she'll be played for the most part, ignoring everything else in her kit.

I'd suggest tweaking the numbers: 10% to 50% damage reduction, capped at 75%, so there's encouragement for varied gameplay (abilities and weapons) and a real decision to be made as to ability usage. That, and have everything reduce the meter.

Also, knocking down enemies... I feel the old stagger was better.

Since the Saryn rework, I'm noticing a pattern, risk/reward mechanics in almost every frame that was released or reworked: Baruk, Gauss, Hildryn, Ember, Grendel, It's a tricky combo to pull off because the reward has to be good and the punishment noticeable, for the gameplay to feel engaging and rewarding. It's not something to be used willy-nilly.

I still feel there's room in warframe for World on Fire, with her 2 being a passive and World on Fire reducing the meter considerably. Having fire procs stack so it's not an instant kill but you get the panic effect and stack in such a way as to promote strength rather than overextended builds. That's not going to happen, I know, that's why I left it for last.

[ZarakkiZenn]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Ember's 2 being a passive instead: 0% to 80%, reduced by ability usage.

Perhaps not for the sake of Ember but warframes in general. One option would be to make her abilities unusable unless the meter allows, giving her two resources and a "soft cooldown". That's the real appeal: experimenting with cooldowns in Warframe (in a somewhat hidden way) as a means to mitigate the "press 4 to win" phenomena. It also has the added advantage of not being an obvious cooldown and having several charges, thus reducing potential community lashback.

Either way, having damage reduction (or rather increased vulnerability) rather than "unsustainable energy cost unless you spam Fire Blast" as her core mechanic seems better in my eyes. Also, adding a hefty energy cost to Inferno (or Meter Strike, I forget), on top of the per enemy cost, seems only logical. It's already becoming a "spam 4" frame.

[King-Baconbeard]

On 2019-11-03 at 6:24 PM, Citan666 said:

Well, I'll have to disagree. 1 and 2 weren't trash in concept. They just needed some kind of buff. Their main problem was imo that DE made them "use-based" instead of duration based, while providing nothing really significant beyond damage when cast as is (proc chance unaffected by STR for example, and I think many people always missed that proc chance could be boosted to 100% by charging - on that point, in general, there is a big lack in readability of abilities imo but that's another topic).  And the fire rate was far too slow to be used as a crowd control, while the ability description (especially "as charged") strongly hinted that was the goal of it.
Besides that, they main problem was being only electricity based making them useless against some kind of enemies.
But just speeding up the frequency of discharges, and NOT limit number by grenade duration, would have been enough to make it very worthwhile.

As for the 2: Bounce has been extremely potent in soloing interceptions: the big pain was that it was limited to 4 uses, with no way to buff that. Make it time-based, increase jump buff with STR, and you'd get a very potent tool for both making travel easy (especially some puzzles) and doing crowd control. 

Shred was totally invaluable at high levels with high STR, but the fact it was duration based, at duration was so short even with buff, made it difficult to use. 
Also, the actual utility of reducing armor was not really put into light, instead people first were presented with damage, which was very bad.
You just needed to buff it by doubling damage as Blast AND Puncture and put the armor reduction standard to 50% for 8 sec to make it great.

More or less the same with Concuss: too many different ranges and durations, and the best effect (radiation proc) was very "hidden". Harmonize ranges, stress the radiation effect instead of the deafen one (I still, to this day, fail to see the utility to deafen enemies with an active ability that will immediately alert them in the first place).

Seriously, Vauban didn't need much to make those mines be extremely efficient: either keep as is but swap with 1 (so they cost 25 energy before reduction). Or apply those small suggested changes. 

Vauban's main problem has always just been...

1. Limited synergy between abilities (basically 1 + 3, 2 "standalone").

2. Necessity, more or less, to tap into everything (STR / Range / Duration) for all abilities, whereas usually frames can be optimized with no setback (no reduction in str/efficiency/range/duration) for one or two abilities.

3. Requirement to use mods to give some abilities the extra oomph they needed (like Tesla "as laser trap", Bastille's Repellant).

Well the new buffed timer on OS is amazing

[greiff]

Been playing Ember and testing the new mechanics of her in different tileset and open world.... While i am mostly happy with the reset, there is one major issue i have.

I do agree that Ember is now much more interactive and can actually kill mobs....... I mean on low to mid level you just see things burn and turn into ashes... very satisfying....

But this bugs me the most: The fact that while Gauss is awarded for filling the meter with the use of his abilities (His 1 fill his meter, his 2 depleted his meter, but with his 2 up, he gets energy when hit, and melee attack also fills his meter while his 2 is on; his quick cast of 3 fill his meter again, and his 4 benefits from the meter when its full at all time. His meter benefits him ONLY)  Ember is heavily penalize for filling up her meter by using her abilities, in the form of her energy getting drain so fast that she runs out of energy to cast any ability? and on top of that you need to use another ability (spending small amount of energy in comparison) to reduce the "over heat" of the meter, in which if not, will result in draining even more energy? That makes no sense!

"Oh you can just turn it off and on..."... well turning it off means Ember is back to doing little dmg, and die after 2 shots..... so we are back to old Ember, with fancy new clothes that makes her look fancy, but she cant keep wearing it because it causes her energy, or her life...... Huh? I cant tell you how many time where i have her 2 on, casting her 3 trying to reduce the overheating in an empty room because with or without using any ability, her meter just goes up, then her energy got completely drained out, and eventually her 2 is off because she no longer have energy, and die almost right after, after 2 shots.

Also her 3, is mostly used because you are using it to reduce the overheating of her meter, not for CC as its meant to be (the current mechanics set it so that instead of its proposed use, we use it so we dont get drained out of energy)

This is not right. Its like Gauss is the new baby in the family that gets all the love, while the older sister gets all the blame.

 

Shouldn't it be:

Her meter is always up like Gauss, her 1 and 3 fills the meter, while her 2 deplete the meter, but gives her dmg reduction and amping up her dmg output (and maybe also gives her energy when hit, like you know, Gauss the younger brother). The initial casting of her 4 would deplete her meter, instead of energy, but the lingering fire ring on mobs will fill the meter (while costing energy, per mob; capped at 10 mobs/energy cost as it is now) and the more it spread the faster it fills the meter (the filling rate should also depends on how many mobs effected; the more effected, the faster it fills the meter back up)

The higher the meter, the higher the dmg reduction is, and the higher her dmg output is; But the higher her meter, the more energy cost when she use her ability.

So you are balancing having higher dmg output with higher energy cost, and managing her resources (meter and energy) instead of balancing whether you want to stay alive that will drain all your energy to a point you cant keep her 2 on, and die as soon as her 2 runs out, or you tap out of her 2, and die right away, as it stands right now.....

"Then she will be OP" you may say... Well we have Saryn and Mesa in the game too..... you want to talk OP?

She is a fire frame, having fire on, and over heating should be a good thing, while i understand the terminology is that you dont "overheat", draining her energy so she cant do a thing unless she turn off the fire is, defeating the point of a fire frame that is to celebrate the flame and destruction dont you think?

 

My 2pence...

 

 

[(PSN)Sentynela707]

Does adding ability duration mod cards benefit her 4th now? 

[.Cruz.]

We getting any more vauban changes or what? So frustrating when you say "and more soon" then completely forget about it. Like if you are working on it just say we are working on it, if not just tell me to #*!% off, im tired of this S#&$.

[ForsakenCrusader]

It's been 3 weeks now and ember has no tweaks done to her plz for the love of god DE her energy usage is the biggest on the game, The way she is now her 4rth augment is mandatory on her otherwise you will run out of energy in no time.

 

Either make her 2 drain far less punishing or remove the energy cost ofher 3 cuz its counter intuitive to have her 3 cost us energy to stop our energy drain, at this point just turning off her 2 is the better solution and thats bad, plz make some changes.

[(NSW)Reogrand09]

I made an account on here just to say Embers rework is not so great, i like immolation but honestly fire blast was better before because it created a wall of flames now it disappears immeditely. And finally Inferno is nothing compared to World On Fire how was this even done, its basically fireball but a little bigger!? It'd be nice to be able to switch back to the old abilities now we are stuck with these smh

[(PSN)vinton14]

5 minutes ago, (NSW)Reogrand09 said:

I made an account on here just to say Embers rework is not so great, i like immolation but honestly fire blast was better before because it created a wall of flames now it disappears immeditely. And finally Inferno is nothing compared to World On Fire how was this even done, its basically fireball but a little bigger!? It'd be nice to be able to switch back to the old abilities now we are stuck with these smh

A "wall"? In created a small ring of fire nothing more 

[(NSW)Reogrand09]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)vinton14 said:

A "wall"? In created a small ring of fire nothing more 

U know what i meant definitely not a "small ring" tho, also just realized fireball disappears after use instead of staying and buring targets like before. My point is ember is worse than before in my opinion

[(PSN)vinton14]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Reogrand09 said:

U know what i meant definitely not a "small ring" tho, also just realized fireball disappears after use instead of staying and buring targets like before. My point is ember is worse than before in my opinion

She could use work on energy drain but she not worse

[LordKarlar]

No she's definitely worse.

[King-Baconbeard]

any updates DE?

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

1 minute ago, Sheep-frame said:

any updates DE?

I think they have been beckoned by the call of Empyrean for the time being

[INC3NSUS]

Let me be very clear then I am fine with tweaks but not ability changes. And yeah think just as the rest I am allowed an opinion. I chalk it up to the same problem as HOTS or WoW. Time spent on reworks (in part to give us fresh stuff) rather than working More on actual fresh stuff and fixing bugs, maybe end content. And from what I hear riven melee was nerfed so if balancing was a issue you raise or lower the dmg or scaling. Changing the abilities is a LAZY ♥♥♥ way to make a frame feel fresh. Also guessing that some that are fine with changes are some that either enjoy a chance of that type or never spend time or cash planing out, getting and then modding a frame. One of many reasons I stick often to games that Work on their game but dont have major class changes. Oh so many games I could list here on steam that did not need to resort to re works.

[King-Baconbeard]

Checking back in for my Daily updates...DE.. Anyone? 🤣

[Loza03]

38 minutes ago, King-Baconbeard said:

Checking back in for my Daily updates...DE.. Anyone? 🤣

[sorcer3r]

How to make vector pad useful?  -> If you place it in front of a locked door you can slide through the locked door 🙂

 

Would be nice if there was a reminder that Vauban has a third ability (even if it is just for eyecandy and nothing else.........) I always forgot that. 😛

[Naneel]

I know I am a bit late, but haven't played for a while. So here are my thoughts on Ember :

• nice fitting passive
• Fireball seems to be as before (not really useful, but not bad either), minus the lingering effect when charged. Not really bad, but was nice in some situations.
• Immolation is nice, but maintainig the heat-meter kind of sucks, especially as you can only decrease it with Fireblast, which directly kicks you back on 50%. Also not sure if you really need an entire skill for that or if this would be better as an added passiv and then giving her a second ability to reduce heat by a minor scale
• Fireblast sucks now. Cool Animation is gone (slamming your fist into the ground looks much cooler then the jump she does now, also why did they remove it on both abilities 3rd and 4th and giving both of them the new one?). Armor reduction does not seem to function properly, or I don't understand how it works. When my Heat is on 90% Fireblast should remove 100% armor, right? If so then this does not reliabely work. Also the damage is insignificant, push and burn are okay. I don't think this is really worth a 3rd Ability. Only using it to decrease Heat.
• Inferno is super. Just not sure if the spread is effected by stats?
• Augment Fireball Frenzy : Didn't test it jet, but sounds good enough
• Augment Immolated Radience : sounds nice, not sure if this really effects every ally
• Augment Healing Flame : Seems also to not work properly, with 25-50 Health per enemy hit, Ember should be fully healed if using it in a crowd of enemies. Did not work for me most of the time
• Augment Exothermic : 15% sounds a bit low, but I couldn't really test it out as enemies died to fast on other things

All in all a good rework. She is now more interactive to play a bit more durable, but could still use some tweaks. Although could somebody enlighten me if Madurai passives work both on Inferno (as it does Impact and Fire damage)?

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

Are we ever going to fix Vauban's Tether grenades? They don't pull enemies towards them anymore, it just makes them ragdoll inplace and lye on the floor. Its been like that for months and months.

[Lutesque]

On 2020-10-14 at 10:17 PM, xcrimsonlegendx said:

Are we ever going to fix Vauban's Tether grenades? They don't pull enemies towards them anymore, it just makes them ragdoll inplace and lye on the floor. Its been like that for months and months.

And Months...

As a Booben Main this is thing I dislike about Tether Grenades the most because it lowers the Effectiveness of its Synergy with Bastille.

 

Another thing is... Only Bastille is capable of Forcing a Tether to let go..... Which I don't think that's good enough... I which Tethers effects could be overridden by other CC effects for Synergy with Other Warframe's.... Like Khora.... ;)