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Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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17 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

How...? Lol.

 

Yeah Bastille is definitely one of the best abilities in his kit.... But how is Tesla the best addition? 

You could just use Bastille instead of Tesla, and then we don't need Tesla ever again.... At all. 

 

Keyword is addition.
Bastille and Vortex were already there,rockin' it,doing the job..but.. from rest of the kit,Tesla is the one with a distinct purpose out of three,very straightforward,reliable,mobile.
The damage amplification mine is the only part of the minelayer that will see general usage,so I might aswell simply look at his 2nd ability as a dmg buff,nothing more,nothing less.

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19 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah I can understand disdain for the animation lock... 

But think about this: use Bastille/vortex once, and nothing can attack you. Then use orbital strike to finish off the enemies. 

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk~

I love how you can aimglide, shoot and throw abilities around simultaneously. It works perfectly. Why making his abilities great, but leaving him open to damage like this? He is already squishy and the fact you could multitasking was one of Vaubans best features.. You are suggesting throwing bastile and then orbital strike? Think about this: his abilities have a travel time. In a higher tier open area you will probably get oneshoted by a nullifier or mowed down by a heavy gunner before the bastille granade even hits the ground lol.

I hope they change it back to something less/non-restrictive in the final release.

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Looks pretty decent overall, but Ive a few questions about some stuff:

Ember: 

  • her 2 (now) is 1 of the few abilities that reduce ability cast times. does a reworked augment includes that for her new 2?
  • wasnt sure if I heard right, but is the armor reduction of her 3 from the ability or the rework for heat dmg (if there is any)? 
  • glad u punish "overheating", but some additional visuals (glowing meter or someting) probably would help if its close to discharge (maybe with a few secs time while being overheated to react on that?)

Vauban:

  • this probably is more a problem about puncture itself, but, could the nail grenade have another status proc? puncture is, well, puncture... (or dmg scaling off the mods on equipped melee wep like khoras 1?)
  • the boost pad looks pretty bad imo. we r ninjas, climbing and jumping around, why would we run on the ground? wouldnt it be easier to handle this like the haste mote from whisp and stack onto some1 and increase their speed of allies that way? (maybe also decrease speed of enemies?)
  • again, about the 2. this time the dmg amp. dmg buff is always nice, but u cant deal dmg when u r dead. the passive already gives extra dmg, so why not a dmg reduction buff instead? some enemies ignore cc and slap their dmg  into ur face anyway and vauban doesnt have anything to counter that. as engineer frame and strategist, wouldnt it be nice to counter that (at least a little bit)?

Thanks for your hard work and keep doing what u r doing!

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Phaeronimus said:

Keyword is addition.
Bastille and Vortex were already there,rockin' it,doing the job..but.. from rest of the kit,Tesla is the one with a distinct purpose out of three,very straightforward,reliable,mobile.
The damage amplification mine is the only part of the minelayer that will see general usage,so I might aswell simply look at his 2nd ability as a dmg buff,nothing more,nothing less.

Yeah I'm wondering about the power wheel too.... The nail mine might be effective against bubble Bois though. 

But Tesla ... Should just be added to his power wheel. I personally don't think it's great enough to be its own power.  His 1 could've been something basic, like a deployable cover that he could move around. 

 

Or maybe it could be made into an exalted pet of some sort. 

Edited by Maka.Bones
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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, RagnaRockrPrime said:

I love how you can aimglide, shoot and throw abilities around simultaneously. It works perfectly. Why making his abilities great, but leaving him open to damage like this? He is already squishy and the fact you could multitasking was one of Vaubans best features.. You are suggesting throwing bastile and then orbital strike? Think about this: his abilities have a travel time. In a higher tier open area you will probably get oneshoted by a nullifier or mowed down by a heavy gunner before the bastille granade even hits the ground lol.

I hope they change it back to something less/non-restrictive in the final release.

Alright, I can appreciate that PoV...

That's a good point, although I still enjoy the new overall changes. 

 

I hope they do remove the movement restrictions 

 

But uh ... If those Teslas which you love so much do their job, then you won't get one shot 😛

Edited by Maka.Bones

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5 minutes ago, RagnaRockrPrime said:

I love how you can aimglide, shoot and throw abilities around simultaneously. It works perfectly. Why making his abilities great, but leaving him open to damage like this? He is already squishy and the fact you could multitasking was one of Vaubans best features.. You are suggesting throwing bastile and then orbital strike? Think about this: his abilities have a travel time. In a higher tier open area you will probably get oneshoted by a nullifier or mowed down by a heavy gunner before the bastille granade even hits the ground lol.

I hope they change it back to something less/non-restrictive in the final release.

^This...all of this...all of my yes.
I hope so too.

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deals extra damage to enemies that are incapacitated?

damage amp buff?

there is actual glass cannon.

vauban needs survivability.

my suggestion is that : every time you make an enemy in a state of incapacitate, you gain damage reduction or armor buff that you can stack up.

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47 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I'm not sure about the really far knockback.... I think their intent was to knockdown, and use that for damage mitigation which ember needs... But idk about the far travel distance with pushing them far away. Great point/question! 

If it was only a knockdown with armor strip it would be great and then my only complaint would be the fireball. Hopefully they get rid of the knockback portion. All in all im hopeful for embers future at least she is being looked at.

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So some more thoughts on Ember. Remove overheat's complete energy drain. Add a passive meter drain (fire needs fuel, its gonna die without it). Put a small energy drain at 100% meter if you want a "drawback" to the ability. Make her 3 stun (like what accelerant does) instead of knockdown. Knockdowns are not a very good form of CC given how many units can resist them. Roll Accelerant's fire damage multiplier into it as well, albeit with reduced numbers perhaps. The meter drain can stay on her 3. No thoughts on her 4.

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5 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Yeah I'm wondering about the power wheel too.... The nail mine might be effective against bubble Bois though. 

But Tesla ... Should just be added to his power wheel. I personally don't think it's great enough to be its own power. 

 

Or maybe it could be made into an exalted pet of some sort. 

I think they didn't wanna remove the Tesla name and merge the ability for the sake of aforementioned 1st abilty...TESLA.
If you ask me,in an ideal world..the Tesla would of been the damage portion of his abilities,in a form of an exalted ability that depends on duration,not a channel.(a man can dream)

Better utility minelayer,survivability-esque 3rd ability and the current Bastille/Vortex merged for his 4th.

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Posted (edited)

While I welcome the attention finally being give to two frames that deserve it:

 *You need to learn from Titania and give Vauban a non novelty reason for him to be used when he wouldn't be already, ie competitiveness with other frames.

* As for Ember, it's a little worrying that this re-work will now mean that people, (like me,) who currently use Ember for invasions, won't be able to use her for the same role now.

Some tankyness is great, but unless her damage is able to scale, her role a fly-swarm-spotter, has been lost just so she can do a sudo Nezha/gara//trinity impersonation.

That sounds a bit dangerous.

Edited by TheArcSet
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Posted (edited)

One idea to entertain for Ember's Immolate ability is that when things overheat they tend to take gradual damage over time.  Gradual DoT that scales the longer immolate stays capped, combined with a warning in the center of her hud would probably work really well as opposed to an energy drain.

Edited by FlashExe
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Posted (edited)

Allow me to preface what I say with... this.
Yh7y1kq.png

 

This figure hasn't changed for the past... I want to say close to 2 and a half years? Ever since the WoF range nerf. Core concern that'll be THE deciding factor on whether or not this rework will meaningfully revive Ember for me or not, is in regards to LoS and AOE. Couldn't help but notice that you mentioned her 4 will be, "enemies in sight," which implies that anything ducking behind any piece of level geometry or other obfuscation will not be targeted. 

 

The above image's stats did not come from terrorizing low level missions, contrary to the popular accusation leveled at Ember - it was all from top-of-the-star-chart void key and relic farms. The gameplay hinged entirely on using World On Fire, with the Firequake augment, as a form of on-screen damage-based radar (the insignificant damage numbers, varying from enemy type to type, functioned like very informative radar pings [fodder, heavies, ancients, disruptors, nullifiers {discrepancy between lack of numbers but a huddle of enemy markers on actual radar}]) and momentary pre-emptive engagement cover, precisely because it could strike and knock down enemies behind walls and out of sight, before I'd have to turn the corner for a facefull of automatic hitscan lead. 

 

Damage reduction on her 2 sounds nice, but in high levels of play if that figure constantly fluctuates or is able to just disappear from using other abilities "too much," it doesn't meet the exacting standards of what's required of a useful survival ability. When enemies start dealing real damage, a few single digits percent on damage reduction sources make the difference between shrugging and laughing hits off, and getting one-shot. So if the damage reduction figure has to fluctuate from having to regulate the heat gauge via discharging her 3 periodically, and that spelling a dip in the protection amount, it objectively makes the move more of casual-tier fluff than anything to actually count on and place much real stock in to play around. 

 

To illustrate: Let's say for the sake of this example that Immolation grants 90% DR when at high heat. Combine that with a healer specter that supplies another 90%. You'd be looking at a combined 99% DR. Let's say we happen to pause to look at this dynamic at a point in the mission where said 99% damage reduction is enough to not get one-shot by something looking your way - now if you have to use Ember's 3 to drop that heat meter, so that it doesn't escalate to full and basically kill you, and let's say it drops your heat meter by 20 or 30% (just a ballpark guess), and that'd bring the damage reduction of Immolation down by the same amount, the amount of damage you'd be looking at, at 97 or 96% total DR is 3 or 4 times what you were taking before at 99%, or even more if you had been using more-yet sources of DR, and now what would have been a livable scrape is instant death. To have the DR fluctuate by even a little bit results in it being no more useful than its lowest potential amount where it counts.

 

Now with this new iteration of her 4 being as it is, it's not a total deal-breaker for it to be limited to what's in sight. However, the lack of reliability in her survivability aspect, as mentioned above, leaves her new kit with a glaring potential weakpoint - the LoS constraints. So the most pressing question I have is: do any of her other abilities get to keep any old-tech AOE functionality - the kind that ignored obstacles in the terrain and worked purely off of range - can her 3 keep this aspect, to use for at least some measure of fleeting cover for engagements? 

Edited by Tau.
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He gains armor from being in bastille while enemies are in it I believe.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb 990k:

He gains armor from being in bastille while enemies are in it I believe.

He will be, after the rework.

Currently his defense is hard CC. That's why is former passive was borderline useless, if nobody can shoot you, why bother with armor?

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Posted (edited)

Ember

-why does she need to spawn meteors? Why not just have the enemies spontaneously combust like they do now with her 4?  Why not pretty much have the same mechanic when the new added functionality? 

I'm not a fan of the rework so far. Id much rather improve what she has than just practically creating a new fire frame. 

World on Fire was a cool spontaneously combust ability that just needed some QoL tweaks and added functionality. I don't like removing, what felt like to me, to be her signature ability- only to replace it with a  generic meteor shower Los move. 

 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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losing all you energy on embers new 2 is way too harsh but otherwise Im suuuuper excited her new kit looks amazing and I cant wait to try it

as for booben
the new speed pad thingy seems pointless so maybe consider taking that out? or atleast streamline it to be more useful
also the nail bomb is concerning if its just flat nonscaling dmg could it scale off from your primary or something?
all the other stuff was just oof yes plz

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41 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Oh, big joice. Ember joined the ranks of foolproof Frames with a passive as a skill, generic DR and inbuilt Armor strip, manageable for every player with 43 chromosomes. The avarage Tenno will wet his pants.

At least Fire got a look at, this is something.

Found the try-hard lol

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So let's jump in shall we. This is coming from the perspective of a player who enjoys fun but ultimately "useful" frames in the game. Here we go. (TLDR summary at the bottom).

Embers Passive: I am not too sold on this tbh. 10 meter range is way too short but ultimately I just don't think it suits her new kit. If she had a roomclearing nuke I could see this working, like, put a bunch of enemies on fire and then unleash something devastating. But it doesn't seem like she has that (maybe her 2 or 4?).

Embers 1: Fireball is still very underwhelming. I just can't really see any scenario outside of while reloading, that I would use this ability. You have to aim at an enemy and press 1. Why not just shoot your weapon? It will most likely deal more damage.

Embers 2: Immolation fixes the biggest issue with Ember - she had no Damage Reduction or reliable Crowd Control. Now she has 50% DR, which will increase along side the immolation meter. I would imagine her DR being capped at 90% like most abilities. The question is if you would need to be at the edge of the meter (right before it "breaks" and drains all your energy) or it will be more forgiving. Either way, a minimum of 50% DR is of course really good. My biggest question here is why isn't this her passive? There is no energy drain, so it seems to me that once you activate it you will pretty much keep it on permanently. Energy is super easy to manage in Warframe, so I don't see a scenario where I wouldn't have energy for her 3 to "cool" the immolation meter. When the immolation meter breaks it's supposed to do big aoe damage and drain all your energy, which I personally find really interesting but it's gotta be some serious aoe damage for me to do it intentionally.

Embers 3: Fire Blast, not much to say here. It strips armor in an AOE, deals damage and seems to have a guaranteed heat proc. So this would actually synergize quite well with the passive if the passive had a longer range. It also seems to have a knockdown, so some light cc is always welcome. Depending on numbers though I imagine this will primarily be used to simply manage the immolation meter and not for the damage or armor stripping. 

Embers 4: Official forums thead reads: "Upon casting Inferno, all enemies currently within sight are struck by a fiery comet, lighting each target ablaze in a personal ring of fire". This ability raises a lot of questions for me. If you go to the twitch video at 34:45 you will see Rebecca casting this ability a few times quite far from enemies and I think it only connects the last time she casts it, when the enemies are not in line of sight because of the pillar. Anyway, my main question is if it will hit every enemy in front of you within range. Lets pretend 30-50m range. So the enemies on your far left and far right are obviously not standing near eachother. So will it hit both groups? Or will it only have one hit zone? Is it only FOV or 180 degress in front of you? I really hope it will hit every enemy within range with a meteor regardless of where they are standing. I fear it will only be in one zone. That would simply make her too weak compared to other room clearing frames. Heck, even having it only hit "all enemies in front of her" seems a bit weak when you have frames like Equinox, Saryn and Volt who can clear entire rooms regardless of angle. Also, each target being ablaze in a ring of fire seems neat but think about it; Who will they spread this to? If it's only 1 zone that will be hit - very little spread. If it hits every enemy in front you, well, they are all ablaze, except maybe the enemies who are yet to spawn/run in. 

TLDR Summary: I think there are some really good ideas here and honestly a lot is gonna come down to the numbers on her 4 (Range and damage) and whether or not there is any point to breaking the immolation meter from her 2. So I will not pass final judgement yet. I am a bit worried though that her damage will be too focused on smaller areas instead of the meta aoe. 

Wishful thinking: Make Immolation (new 2) her passive and maybe let it activate automatically after a small cooldown when the immolation meter breaks. And make it worth it to break the meter from time to time, to have cool nuking moments.

Make her 1 exalted: Pressing Mouse1 repeatedly spams fireballs from both hands dealing great damage, draining energy per fireball and building immolation meter. Holding Mouse1 does a flamethrower like move. 
New 2: It could be her old 2 Accelerant, a small aoe WoF or something completely new (If immolation becomes her passive). 
Make sure her 4 has the right numbers behind it. 

Those are my thoughts and wishes. What do you guys think about this and what was presented? 🙂

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Ember is one of my favorite frames. I don't like them changing so much about her. But oh well, what can I do. 

I really hate replacing her WoF with a generic meteor move. It also irks me that they come from the "sky" instead of being a power coming from her. 

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1 hour ago, mikakor said:

i would rather say that instead of this, or even both, that when we get to 100 per 100, we get a visual warning in the middle of our HUD , like big red flashy icon on our aim visor, with written on it "/!\ OVERHEAT /!\" so we know that we have to discharge a bit of our heat metter, giving us something like a 3 period grace before we actually lose all the energy. does it sounds nice to you?

sorry double post >.>

This is really nice actually. a 3-5 seconds warning where the corner of the screen starts to get hotter (with the energy color) would be a good thing. Also, as others said before we need the Damage Reduction for high level content, so we need to have a way for Ember to keep a high meter, but not overdo it. It could be like Gauss, you can safely keep 80% of the meter, but doing something will make it go towards 100%. Maybe the Ultimate makes her go into overheat. 

OR we could do it another way. For instance, reduce Fire Blast's drain to 25% of the heat meter, instead of 100%. Wih this you have more control over the heat growth while not sacrificing your entire damage reduction.

 

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42 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So some more thoughts on Ember. Remove overheat's complete energy drain. Add a passive meter drain (fire needs fuel, its gonna die without it). Put a small energy drain at 100% meter if you want a "drawback" to the ability. Make her 3 stun (like what accelerant does) instead of knockdown. Knockdowns are not a very good form of CC given how many units can resist them. Roll Accelerant's fire damage multiplier into it as well, albeit with reduced numbers perhaps. The meter drain can stay on her 3. No thoughts on her 4.

Her 3 strips armor, which is better than fire damage multiplier.

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Just now, HolySeraphin said:

Her 3 strips armor, which is better than fire damage multiplier.

Sure, but I'd like a bit more than a knockdown and some armor strip for a meter draining ability. Plus armor strip does nothing vs most corpus an infested, weak as they may be.

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1 hour ago, Culaio said:

The fact that weapons exist is not an excuse, it it was vauban wouldnt need rework I mean I could as well use magus repair operator arcane for survivability and magus lockdown for CC, I shouldnt be forced to use those things to fix problems frame has.

I do agree that this rework is major improvement in every way, I will give it a chance, probably will fool around with speed boost stuff for few  weeks then never use vauban again until next rework because I know people will call for another rework in the future, I was hoping this rework would put vauban on par with best frames since people were asking for this rework for so long sadly it didnt happen

 

its not bad rework its just that its also not great rework either(its not Pablo tier rework), there are better alternatives.

actually consider this: the problem vauban has isn't "his kit is bad" now; it's just that CC as a whole just doesn't work as well, not his kit in itself. Even with those mobs considered he's still plenty good, especially now that he has methods of dealing with them quickly (His minelayer's damage buff)

Also by your logic the presence of nullifiers makes every single warframe need a rework. What are your definitions of "best frames" perchance?

I'm sorry if I sound offensive, but I just feel like this is what I've been waiting for, and I'm hyped.

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