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Vauban & Ember Dev Workshop

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Just now, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

Burning things is fun.

First of all: true, lol

But second of all, every weapon in the game can be equipped with heat damage, and when faced with a choice between Ember's current or new kits and the versatile kit containing infinitely-ish scaling corrosive, non-LoS-dependent viral, and toxin damage, I don't see how anyone would choose Ember over Saryn, short of being a pyromaniac and being obsessed with heat damage over the other, widely more well-known as more versatile and useful elements.

The frames should be reworked with consideration/comparisons to other existing frames. They should fill some kind of functional niche that we'll choose for reasons other than the glee we feel when seeing something set on fire.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

The frames should be reworked with consideration/comparisons to other existing frames. They should fill some kind of functional niche that we'll choose for reasons other than the glee we feel when seeing something set on fire.

With 40+ frames in the game, I think this is impossible. When you start playing the "X is better than Y" game, you may as well keep going until you boil down the roster to, what, five frames? Six? I think every warframe should be its own little "island." So long as they can stand on their own two feet; and don't significantly overlap another frame in terms of playstyle, aesthetic, and abilities; it's acceptable to me. There simply isn't enough niches for everything to be totally unique, and some frames are always going to be "better" than others. I think the only thing that matters is making every frame capable of achieving the same reasonable results in an enjoyable fashion. Sure, Saryn is superpowerful, probably one of the best in the game, and she is fun to use. But so long as Ember is capable of doing the same thing (e.g. kill everything in grandiose fashion) then it's not very important to me if she takes a little while longer or requires a little more effort to do so, so long as I'm having fun doing it.

But this is from the perspective of someone who doesn't deal with Level 200+ Whatevers like a lot of people here can do.

Edited by (NSW)ToadBlue

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Il y a 9 heures, VentiGlondi a dit :

Accelerant was a crutch. It's only purpose was to help with the fact that fire damage ain't all that great.

If Ember's damage scales properly it's not necessary.

Do you really think that Ember damages will increase that much ? I don't think so, she'll get armour stripping (cause they obviously are too busy to finally rework the quite awful current damage mechanics) but that's all. If she's then able to burn Grineers but get nerfed against everything else, i wouldn't call that a successful rework.

That extra survivability is fine but tbh she didn't really need it in the first place if some people weren't complaining about that all day long. Since we'll get stuck with a Gauss clone mechanics (cast X powers to not be screwed) i'd like to see how Ember will perform energy wise too. Cause she gets more defense but no ressource management.

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29 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

When would we choose Ember over Saryn?

Saryn is more inherently tanky by default ...

Apparently you missed the 'Base 50% damage Reduction' bit they mentioned in the video. So she'll likely end up with closer to 75%+ DR when she's got some heat built up (and assuming it doesn't scale with Power Strength) compared with Saryn who doesn't actually have any DR beyond her armor.

Anyway, while I definitely think this kit needs work, Saryn's biggest issue with me is being boring. Honestly the only reason I'll bring Saryn over Ember at the moment is damage type and durability. I'd much rather run around with a short range World on Fire than babysit my spores. Of course, while they're fixing both of my issues they're also removing the play style I like. (yes I can just play Gara, but I find it annoying that I have to play another frame to play the style I fell in love with on Ember.)

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11 hours ago, [DE]Connor said:

Nail Grenade” fires high velocity nails in all directions, inflicting puncture damage to any unlucky enough to be nearby.

nope this one is Bad

change this to something else, it doesn't even fit the idea of "utility" that you want for this whole abilty

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

With 40+ frames in the game, I think this is impossible. When you start playing the "X is better than Y" game, you may as well keep going until you boil down the roster to, what, five frames? Six? I think every warframe should be its own little "island." So long as they can stand on their own two feet; and don't significantly overlap another frame in terms of playstyle, aesthetic, and abilities; it's acceptable to me. There simply isn't enough niches for everything to be totally unique, and some frames are always going to be "better" than others. I think the only thing that matters is making every frame capable of achieving the same reasonable results in an enjoyable fashion. Sure, Saryn is superpowerful, probably one of the best in the game, and she is fun to use. But so long as Ember is capable of doing the same thing (e.g. kill everything in grandiose fashion) then it's not very important to me if she takes a little while longer or requires a little more effort to do so, so long as I'm having fun doing it.

But this is from the perspective of someone who doesn't deal with Level 200+ Whatevers like a lot of people here can do.

Ehhh. I'd agree that it's hard to say that each frame should have a mission they're the best at. There aren't enough mission types to go around for that, after all. But if a Warframe has a very explicit/common purpose or restriction, such as Saryn and Ember both being damage-focused caster frames, I think there should be a tangible reason why you'd choose one over the other, whether it's a substantially different playstyle even in the same mission types, and/or if they were more suitable for different mission-types than the other. My point would be that Ember doesn't have to replace Saryn as the new best "genocide queen" option, it'd just be that even if none of their abilities are the BEST compared to other Warframes, it should average out, she shouldn't have abilities that each rank in the lower 50th percentile of similar abilities. There should be a reason to choose her over Saryn, whether that's a substantially different (in a fun way) playstyle, or a way that she's more suitable/effective at something specific.

8 minutes ago, WolfgangHype said:

Apparently you missed the 'Base 50% damage Reduction' bit they mentioned in the video. So she'll likely end up with closer to 75%+ DR when she's got some heat built up (and assuming it doesn't scale with Power Strength) compared with Saryn who doesn't actually have any DR beyond her armor.

Both versions of Saryn, compared with both Embers, have over twice the amount of armor, a bit more health, and have a self-healing-providing augment, as well as a wide bag of elements that will innately provide her more benefit to mods such as healing return. And currently, Ember's proposed DR option also has the nasty side effect of requiring an additional piece of resource management to pay attention to, that is entangled with the current resource management of energy, with a massive downside of nuking all of her energy if she overheats. And everyone else has already mentioned the fact that, because you're trying to keep yourself from overheating, you keep on subtracting down away from the maximum Overheat DR to avoid nuking the energy. And your comment about them removing the enjoyable component from her really doesn't add much weight to the argument that she shouldn't be buffed to compare to Saryn, or nerfing Saryn so that they're relatively equally valid picks in the game.

Edited by Grav_Starstrider
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6 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

Actually, now that I think about it. Her new 4 has better CC than WoF. Why? It affects everyone on sight, AND pretty much stunlocks them, also spreading to anyone that touches them. If you stun them in the doors then that area is pretty much secured.

It affects enemies on sight only. She has 3rd ability for CC. WoF is still better. But buff it with current rework, the spreading thing.

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Posted (edited)

No more Bastille and Vortex at the same time, still this awful mines no one cares about and his grenades (no one were using anyway) are now mobile...

But hey, dude got a nuke !

I thought they would have been more creative on this quite dated but still interesting frame. Still waiting for testing it myself but so far i'm quite disappointed tbh. We need fun frames, not an upteenth nuker. The only thing they're doing now is to add armor stripping abilities to all dated toons cause the whole armor scaling is damn broken...

Fix armor scaling first, rework damages and then rework older toons. 😮

Edited by 000l000
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Posted (edited)

I just want to preface this post by saying that the team has done a phenomenal job with the visuals of her rework. However, I do have a few grievances with some of her abilities.

Ability 2:
  • Problem: The idea of the meter ramp up is great but if its going to have such a harsh penalty it should offer something more than just damage reduction.

  • My solution is an overheated mode called Phoenix Mode. In this mode ember will emit Accelerant (Her old 2) waves that will stun enemies (Only on the first wave). With this mode she will be able to retain her old niche of buffing heat damage for both her and her squad. Now what about her penalty? While I believe losing your entire energy pool is too harsh, I still want some sort of penalty if you neglect meter management. A solution to this is giving Phoenix Mode a cooldown when you fail to manage the meter. There should be an overflow bar (Just like Gauss' mach meter) attached to the meter which will force ember to cool down when you reach maximum capacity. With this overflow bar you will have a bit of leeway when you manage her meter instead of instantly getting the penalty when you reach full capacity without the overflow bar.

Ability 3:
  • Problem: This ability as it stands right now is very counter-intuitive with her passive. The knockback will only force you to chase after your enemies if you want to get your extra power strength.

  • My Solution is something called Pyroclastic Flow. The ability still retains its damage and armor stripping capabilities but this time the enemies will be encased in solidified lava and thick ash preventing them from moving while also damaging them over time. Clarification: I am aware that nezha has a mod called Pyroclastic Flow. I am only suggesting a power that will act similarly to this natural phenomenon. 

Phoenix Down: This would be included in her passive and it will basically give ember a free self revive by spending her whole meter and putting phoenix mode into cooldown. Note: This is just a fun thing they can do for ember's phoenix theme and is definitely not required to make ember good.

All in all I think this rework is a step in the right direction for ember but I really believe they can take it a step further and make her shine.

Edited by Midnight_Crest
Clarification

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All the vauban's CC is trap type.

That means you are not safe out of trap area ofcourse.

We don't want to stuck in trap area and DE either.

nobody can't shoot you? If in defence misson? It is same thing slow nova in defence misson. That kind of hard CC is usefull only we don't need to kill enemy and such situations is not common.

So i think vauban need misson capability outside of trap zone and my idea is survivability buff.

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Alright! The Reworks so far are looking good!

However, there are some issues that I saw with some of them, and here is what I suggest to fix them:

Let's start with Vauban!

1. Tesla Drones

I like the idea of having Teslas chasing after the enemies to stun them, but three problems:

1st: Must Vauban's first abilty something related to shocking someone?

2nd: Let's not go with rollers. Grineer Seeker's grenade roller AI is already not too good.

3rd: Let's do away with this "hold to charge", it is not mandatory to have that, not to mention it's distruptive to flow of actions.

I personally would give Vauban set of grenades for his first ability, akin to his 2nd ability. Although, I suppose it would be too cluttered or too much mechanics showed in one frame.

Here are set of grenades just in case:

1. Gas Grenade: Hinders enemy accuracy while applying Gas proc on them.

2. EMP Grenade: Disables robotics, jams enemy weapons for very short duration.

3.Stun Grenade: Just like the name suggests, stuns enemies nearby upon blast.

4. Fire Grenade: Like Molotov, it's fires stay on ground, applying Heat proc on those who step on it.

But, if it MUST be that Vauban's 1st ability is related to shocking someone, here's a way to improve the current design:

Actual Tesla Drones: Anyone remember Ved Xol? And his Nemes? Anyone who does Index remembers that guy and his Kamikaze drones. Replace the "drone balls" with those Nemes, with Vauban's personal touch to it. Just like Nemes, it flies towards enemies and shocks them, with certain amount of charge. And when it's charges run out, it does Kamikaze charge towards enemies, knocking them down. 1/2/3 drones that scale with Power Strength is good amount, so I think.

2. Minelayer

1. Sticky Ripline: Looks great so far, but, it can be enchanced: Even though it was activated, it continues to pull in more enemies until max capacity reaches.

2. Nail Grenade: Interesting, but, it's lacking. I think it should work more like "Bouncing Betty" instead of "Turret". When enemy comes near, it bounces up and explodes, knocking down enemies nearby, and apply Puncture proc. Perhaps, with chance to cripple enemies (for example: slower movement speed, lower accuracy, confusion. Basically, give them concussion).

3. Boost Pad: Love the idea! However, it is concerning in some way, so here's my suggestion to address them:

1. From looks, it seems Boost Pad doesn't affect enemies. Let's make it affect enemies. However, it should knock them down and make them "fly" towards the arrow's direction.

2. Change how the arrows affect players. Should the player move onto the Boost Pad, they should boost towards the direction they were going when stepping on the Boost Pad.

(I know that it would lower the "fun" factor, but, cmon now, nothing's there to stop you from messing with others in different way, be creative lol)

4. Damage Amp: Like the idea, but, from looks, it seems it's bit low on damage boost. I suppose it's intentional? But, there are other issues I saw:

1. From looks, it doesn't seem like Damage Amp affects enemies. Let's make it so that it lowers nearby enemies' damage by same amount it boosts players damage. However, it would seem like it would just waste the Mine, but, simple way to fix that: it has seperate charge for enemies and players. One charge for enemies, one charge for players. For visual FX to tell what charge it has left for, here's suggestion: Visual FX for enemies is what FX it has currently. Visual FX for players, perhaps having "sparkling aura" for it is good enough.

2. From looks, it doesn't seem like the Damage Amp stacks. Perhaps, it can stack on players indefinetally, but with diminishing return?

3. Orbital Strike

That looks awesome! Hopefully the Orbital Strike's damage scales off of Vauban's primary/secondary or both?

I suppose it is fine enough by itself. But, I do hope it scales off of Vauban's weapons.

Although, the casting animation is bit problematic, it gives off the impression that it affects player's movement. Let's not have that.

4. Bastille/Vortex

Great work on that! But, small issue: and that is the casting animation.

From looks, it looks like it affects player's movement. Let's not make it affect player's movement.

 

Now, onto Ember! ...well, before that, short talk about Heat proc.

At the moment, Heat proc is underwhelming. Heat proc itself should be worked on for Ember to be more effective with her kit.

1. Fireball

Let's do away with the "hold to charge". Instead, give her "hold to cast". Allow me to explain:

Holding to charge the ability doesn't really do well for flow.  And from looks, it appears that the intention for "hold to charge" is to boost damage output in exchange for energy. No need to have that gimmick. Instead, change her Fireball to "tap to cast", and when casted, she shoots multiple Fireballs with napalm, up to 3/4/5 (doesn't scale off of Power Strength or her Immolation), with either random spread or fixed spread (akin to Frost's 2).

2. Immolation

Like the idea, but, the current "overheat" is not very appealing. Let's do away with "if she overheats, she exhausts wave of heat, expanding ALL energy" idea. However, I recommend that her "overheat" works like this:

Casting her abilties other than 2 while her "Immolation" is active, dealing heat damage, taking heat damage should boost her "overheat" build up. Her "overheat" will give boost to her other abilties as it builds up while giving her bonus heat damage to her weapons. And upon reaching "overheat", all of her abilities get major boost. For example, her Fireballs deal much more damage while getting larger napalm radius. Her Fireblast stripping ALL armor AND shield (more on that later). Her Inferno dealing more damage(also more on that later).

Now, to counter that powerful boost? Her Immolation being Duration based ability. Since, seems like you want Ember to have "cooldown". And once her duration runs out, her "overheat" and heat damage dealt during her "Immolation" should expand out, dealing damage to nearby enemies.

Although, I suppose her "Immolation" being 4th ability is more recommended with this suggested change.

3. Fireblast

Her Fireblast is looking good, although, I would suggest to give her Fireblast not only ability to strip shield, but also that upon cast, leaves flaming ground, similar to Oberon's 2. However, it expands instead, dealing more damage as it expands (with more chance to proc Heat), but doesn't go past Fireblast's radius (damage scaling off of her Immolation). I don't see the reason for her Fireblast to have armor stripping and shield stripping ability, I see it being more of her Inferno's case to do so.

4. Inferno

Love the idea of Inferno, but, I see more room for improvement.

Let's take her Fireblast's ability to strip armor and (suggested) shield stripping and give it to her Inferno. And I also suggest that her Inferno, upon hitting the ground, leaves flaming residue, that deals more and more damage as it lasts. Enemies hit by Inferno should take more damage from Heat damage, along with her other abilities, while her "overheat" level boosts the damage and armor(and shield) stripping power.

Well, that is all from me. Perhaps some of my suggestions are not suitable, but, all I wish for is for Vauban and Ember to be taken out of their current miserable state and made more viable and good while being fun.

I hope for great rework!

 

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Posted (edited)

Not gonna lie, i'm quite disappointed by Vauban's uninspired rework so far. Tesla grenades, mobile or not, are bad - Wisp's shock reservoir alone is better than this thing. Vauban needs more than that to be funnier and more effective.

Get rid of his mines, completely. This power should never have been a thing in the first place and needs a complete replacement.

Orbital strikes ? What, how, from where, with who. Well this is quite a common skill in many games, not sure Vauban really needed it but hey, obviously all frames need nuker skills to please the crowd. Perhaps this time i'll kill the whole map before the player next to me.

Why merging Bastille and Vortex. What if we enjoyed using both ? It feels like a huge nerf to me at this point. You keep powers no one cared about but prevent us from using both of his only two actually useful skills ? Not sure it's a wise move. Plus this thing is completely stupid in many kind of situations, if i'm using a Bastille that's because i don't want enemies to get access to whatever is inside of it. I don't care about all enemies getting suck in my cryo or my VIP - if any drone, energy leecher or "dispeller" is in the vicinity i'm stuck with all of this enemies over me. Bastille is made to repel enemies, not the opposite, it doesn't make any sense.

Armor scaling addition, once again you're stuck with adding armor stripping to every single frame cause your damage and armor scaling mechanics are basically broken. Perhaps fixing that first would allow more inspired additions than an upteenth "remove all but 100% armor" effect. And tbh (even if armor stripping is always useful as long as it isn't reworked) i didn't have any concern about armored enemies when i was playing Vauban. Enemies stuck in bastille are easy kill, enemies stuck in Vortex are easy kill too.

Perhaps i did miss it but where's our "help me out, my vauban is dying when i'm going from Bastille A to Bastille B" skill ? I don't know, remove his current 2nd and make him use an osprey or anything that would help him the same way Venari saves Khora's arse quite a lot. Vauban needed mobile support, not mobile grenades... Make it buff the entire team or whatever, i wouldn't mind Vauban being a better support at this point. Guy is still lacking of synergies, even casting another skill into Bastille could have made it deal damages or whatever.

Remove his awful current skills, make his skills better synergize, make him a better support than a master of CCs only, i don't mind a nuke but why an orbital strike instead of a Vortex rework ? Vortex could have exploded too.

Edited by 000l000
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Ember Rework => 21/20
Vauban Rework => 65535/20

The Vauban Epicness of the Pime Trailer is there now, that's exactly what we needed, and damn the idea of combining the vortex and the bastille to not loose anything and still be capable of adding a damage skill is just genious ! The particles too <3. I'm impatient to have him on my hands !

Ember, that's a great rework, but I feel that the animations lack abit of Badassitude, the particles of the new 4th ability are perfect but the overall animation is not enought for me. Especially her first ability, right now it's a one handed skill but why not making the taping one handed and the channeling a two handed "kamehameha" styled animation that would have a damn badass animation for it ?

Same for Vauban indeed, I like the idea of the 1st ability channelling beeing him juggle with three grenades, but where is he getting them from ? The tapping can stay a one handed ability that he just cast it out but the channeled version should definitly have a two handed animation for it to me.

One more thing about Ember, the old 3rd ability animation was kinda nice in the regard of "I smash the ground and then a pulse of fire spread". I totally understand that you won't reuse the same animation as it's the same as the grineer ground punch, but I really feel that she lack the epicness of the fire-bearer she should be.

 

About the HEAT proc ! Hell yeah I love that new idea, it can become one of the best damage type in the game if you make the entire heat proc making armor melting. But I think that you need to not stop at that, cause we already have Corrosive beeing an armor stripping so it would make redondant. My idea about that is that while Heat proc is effective it slowly melt down the armor, the more time it heats the more the armor melt. This could also increase the DoT over the time cause in the reality the longer a metal is heated the more hot it become (thanks captain obvious xD) so technically a grineer should melt harder by time, so exponential damaging. But then it could become too OP so here is my conterpart idea: After a heat proc, there should be a "buff/debuff" fora duration which would be the "cooling" of the metal, which ends into a boost of the armor value. That was the heat proc could be abit like Viral, removeing temporary a big chunk of the enemy defense but then regranting it back. And even worst, imagine if a metal armor is beeing heated so hard that it turns to "white metal", and then let's say a Frost come and deal cold damage to him... Let's double the armor value ? =D That would make a very interesting way to think of how we play together in the team without too much code difficulty (i think it won't be too hard to make for the devs as it's technically a "if heat_post_proc_active and cold_proc_active then do_double_armor_proc" but that's your part of the job xP)

I'm gonna think on my own of other ideas on how we could have the other damage type more interesting and post it on another topic !

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Are we getting forma for the reworks if we already have ember/vauban?

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I have only one question - why does Vauban need Sticky Ripline if he already has Vortex which does the same thing? Or am I missing something?

Maybe change it into deployable medkit/ammo box/shield battery/etc?

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8 hours ago, Maka.Bones said:

Fireblast won't knockback enemies that already have fire procs. 

@Arcira ^this.... it seems most of us didn't notice this during the devstream (myself included)

Sorry but that doesn´t really solve it for me either. Sounds like the perfect ability in her kit to enable her passive and finish enemies with WoF. But if you push them back initially you are probably better of spamming WoF which renders Fireblast more or less obsolete.

I have added a suggestion about a similar version but with a knock down variance. I think it would fit the combo and cc aspect better.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Found the try-hard lol

Found the 43 chromosome guy.

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Posted (edited)

Well.

All I ask for is basically a heat buff on her 3 (and the knockback removal by default) and look where we are. DE has a track record of forgetting about released stuff so I’m hoping to get my feedback in before the thing happens. It’s likely she won’t need it after all, especially if her gauge gives decent damage, but we can all use more buffs that don’t need an augment to be used.

Another point: level 200 butchers are about as tanky as a level 50 heavy gunner. Keep that in mind when you look at the damage.

Also they don’t always listen, case in point the recent Arbitrations rework.

and if an objective of the kit is to set enemies alight to negate the knockback (which it is) that still doesn’t warrant a knockback throwing any mob who’s in range but hasn’t been burnt yet out of range.

Edited by RWBY-WhiteRose

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

no she doesn't. her passive grants more strength and the fire proc strips armor resulting in more dmg. let's actually play the rework to see if accelerant is 'needed' 

...

just wait for it to come out and play it before coming to conclusions 

An absolutely not from me. Once they actually release her kit to the public it´s very unlikely they will make fundermental changes anymore.

8 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

again, fire procs do that now 

when you look at it as a whole, accelerant wouldn't really be needed. fireball is doing decent dmg along with WoF (one of these 2 now scales with enemy level iirc) and the buffs from the heat meter, buffs to the fire proc, all of this should help out more 
 

They said they where thinking about a armor melt effect and heat damage isn´t unique to Ember other warframes, weapons, etc get the same benefits. Also we don´t know about Fireball/WoF damage but from my experience offensive abilities where always struggeling in terms of dps due to there lack of scaling options and removing one probably increases this problem rather than solving it. But in the end that depends on how much damage is effictively provided by her passive and Immolate.

If they really have to sacrifice an ability for immolate (which I think would be better suited as her passive) Fireblast would be the better choice in my opinion. Accelerant provides better utility, cc and in general is more consistent as an "oh S#&amp;&#036;" button.

 

Edited by Arcira

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Posted (edited)

First off I am honored by that little trolling you did with using the Boar Prime in the presentation, very subtile and clever if it was intentinal.

 

Passive: Well given that you strip Ember of 95% of her damage you better throw in lots of powerstrength. :facepalm:

Fire proc stacks: Why? CC procs should not stack damage, they are there for CC what is very useful on any frame that has to use CC to stay alive at high levels like our current Ember and fire procs on Ember are allready devastating:

Ds7Ck4P.jpg

483k damage single shot + 2,67M fire dot(because we really did need primed bane mods DE?) + AOE viral proc that does cut that poor enemy units HP into halve. This is before you throw in arcanes and cat buffs to troll that poor Chroma in your sorti a bit for doing less damage then Ember...

Btw please correct me if I did do the dot calculation wrong(2500 base damage, 0,9 + 0,6 + 1,03 heat mod multiplier. 1,55x from the bane mod, 4,4x crit multiplier on a 2x headshot buffed with 500% accelerant). Given that dead targets are unfortunally 100% immune to my awesome dot damage I rarely calculate it, given that it hardly is relevant even at L150+. :thinking:

Acellerant vs Ignition:

Years ago you stated that Ember should be a offensive high damage frame, what the switch from Overheat to Acellerant did archive, giving Ember the damage to compeete with other damage frames at high levels if the players chose to utilze it's effect on weapon damage. It is not really the abilities fault if people do not use it, however it would be probably far more clear if you added in the tooltip that it also affects weapon based damage to newer players.

Acellerant is one of the best AOE stuns in the game and the thing that makes Ember effective at high levels solo defence or interception, giving her more utility then the frames with that massive damage reductions, like Chroma, that have close to no CC. It is also sujectivly more fun, because it is something you do as a player to stay alive instead of just turning a ability on and be done with it, like all your other great damage reduction mechanics that you mostly put into the game to avoid actually fixing high level mechanics and testing your game properly.

Mechanics like:
Enemy accuracity is way higher against solo/host players, similar like it was till you fixed that in U17 and made frame like Ember enjoyable to solo high levels with.

Enemy damage scales to a point where everything just one shots you, the reason why back in the days we mostly did CC everything and today nearly every new frame is basically compleetly unable to die on the starmap. A system where any frame with some defensive mods could take 1 or 2 hits at high levels would fix that and reduce the more and more growing imballance between frames that can take everything to the face at L100 and others that are instantly dead if hit by even just cannon fodder units.

Ancient hooks are aim bot accurate vs solo players at high levels, are affected by toxic auras(that has a 100% uptime at high levels) so they ignore shilds and can proc toxic or slash. All of that like 20 times per minute, because the unit is conded to do the hook as the first action when it spawn. So a mechanic that was intendet against people afking at high places in stuff like the old ODD creates big issues for me soloing high level stuff on Ember.

Why nullifiers, a unit that does garanteed can get a shot off against CC based frames at high levels have a lanka that instantly kills frames like Ember there. Is this really good design that encurages the player to improve the gameplay for high levels?

Why does the infested moa tar does have scaling HP so you can not remove it at high levels or Osprays somehow develop multishot droping 2 orbs after L100 on top of scaling damage? All this mechanics are there to encurage the player to use movement instead of staying still and getting killed at low levels and while becoming massive AOE one shot kill death traps at high levels for no good reason. 

Why is it intendet that if you land in front of the bunker in the 2. orb mother contract you instantly die solo, because brusas that bombard the area are to far away for CC and the Ambulas in front of the building one shot you because they are immune to CC like accelerant. So you press the revive button, kill the 2 ambulus in 2 seconds each and continue with your mission. This is not good design, given that it hardly affects tank frames and makes frames that realy on CC like Ember just less enjoyable to play for no reason at all.

Basically you remove anything what makes Ember a interesting to play fairly specifc super high weapon damage frame at high levels today for a damage reduction that a well ballanced damage frame with lots of CC like the current Ember should not need to stay alive against better tested and ballanced mechanics at high levels.

 

Fireblast

Why does a frame that is one of the most effective vs armor in the game, given the way accelerant scales on status weapons, does need a anti armor ability? Ember since I play the frame(2014) always was compared to other high level high damage frames like the 2.0 Saryn before the rework that killed the fun of the frame for me, mag or volt  the frame that did bring the best scaling vs armored targets at high levels to the table. The reason for that is that a corrosive/heat status weapon will always be more effective on Ember then on other frames, given it does remove the armor protection and given that Ember just scales bonused heat damage(what is the ideal for the propose of killing units without armor) while not suffing any real loss in damage from using the 60% status mods vs 90% damage mods like you do with just normal damage bonuses that affect all the damage types.

This is what Ember does to L155 armored units without CP, you can kill them in 1-2 seconds and you will continue to do so if you keep raising that level, given that corrosive/heat status weapons do scale favourable against infinite armor protection and Ember does the highest damage to the HP of the units after they lose her armor with that weapons.

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Even against units that have a build in damage reduction on top of her armor like the Nox, Ember is more effective than most alternatives for damage dealing, given that acellerant lets you do a lot of the ideal damage vs that unit and acclerant is the best damage buff you can have for this kind of targets on your status weapons:

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You basically remove the thing that makes Ember very good against armored targets and give her a armor reduction ability so people that do not understand how status wepons work now also can do damage against armored targets at higher levels? That sounds incredible backwards, reduces the impact a player has when it comes to play his damage frame at high levels good, making it less rewarding and most likely even far less effective given that you lose all the bite the current Ember has with status weapons if you lose accelerant.

WOF

World on Fire was good for CC for higher levels before you added the range reduction in favour of more damage(something the current Ember does not need) and damage falloff, keeping the CC range would have been the much better design. WoF while it did not continue to be the community favorite for hands free damage does all things considered, if you happen to press that 4 button just as much as on other damage farmes with a similar AOE 4 still the same thing at low levels.

Conclusion:

I, as somebody playing Ember for years, do not understand why you destroy all the progress you made over the years to make Ember a well ballanced and interesting to play damage frame at high levels on behalve of feedback from people that do for the most part not understand how the frame works or is simply consider it as to much effort to play for them. This is because the game has no shortage on overpowered low effort frames they could play instead if they prefere that. I in contrast absolutly hate reworks like you did with Saryn 3.0, given you turn a fairly well ballanced and interesting to play weapon based high damage frame(that has pros/cons at high levels vs other alternatives) into a incredible boring press 1 for map wide armor strip and endless hands free damage, on top of it also stripping it of all the interesting interactions that spore had with status weapons to a point where weapon choice, looking out for procs, having to know how to mod your weapons for that frame to do high damage and when to spread spores or when to launch your status weapon based AOE nuke has no influence at all, you will be just as good as damage dealer then the other Saryn over there that does happen to be afk, because he just as you did press 1.

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This Saryn did not need a rework, similar as this Ember does not need one, especially not one that just strips her of all her unique scaling mechanics with accelerant and of 95% of the damage your damage frame currently can do. This rework sounds to me like you try to fix Ember by actually making the frame scale and perform just as poorly as the community here on the forum suggests it does nearly every 2. day for the last 5 years I happen to play the game. The design of the current Ember is actually very good(it really got better over the years and is on one level with Volt or Mag what are also very well designed and interesting to play frames), it is just that if you do not utilize your mechanics and what they can do for you, you will not do high damage, what is again just as how Mag or Volt works.

Edited by Djego27
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Posted (edited)

 

8 minutes ago, Arcira said:

An absolutely not from me. Once they actually release her kit the way it was presented to the public it´s very unlikely they will make fundermental changes anymore

Agreed. 

5 hours ago, mikakor said:

it may already been said before, but...

her 4 is better not be a Line of Sight, this would totally destroy this ability.

her heat meter shouldn't give drawback. at all. period. Ember didn't had this before, she shouldn't have this now. this is making an old warframe more complicated than what it needs to be. it should be an indicator of your DR until it gets to the max, and that's it. not actively screwing up your gameplay. you are FORCED to use an ability just because using your kit is actually bad for you and mess you up. this, as a feeling, sucks. nothing in her actual kit deserves... anything about that. no drawback at all. there shouldn't be.

Ember is being presented as another gauge warframe intended on promoting less-afking, and if it gives decent self buffs then I don’t care much. The penalty of completely removing her ability to cast or to survive via CC or if you screw up is a little too punishing but I’m fine with it though I’d prefer the ability to go on Cooldown mode instead, or have a constant high passive drain on 100%. She should still be able to survive via alternate methods, not be a sitting duck. The rest of her kit looks okay but is likely to not actually have good damage.

And my money is on the fireball cast being limited by line of sight to the player, and the spread limited by line of sight to the enemy. (Should avoid holding spawns too much.) hopefully that last bit isn’t the case though, but for a power the 1st makes a lot of sense.

Edited by RWBY-WhiteRose

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No offense but that Ember rework just looks bad. I can't believe yet another Ember nerf is being passed off as a "rework". She's had a rougher time of it than the meme queen Mag at this point. I mean, I had actually joked a few weeks back that the next Ember rework would be just removing her one good ability and slightly altering the 3 others and calling it a success, and yet here we are and it's not memes. Leave World on Fire alone or buff it up to the current era and maybe lower her energy consumption a bit. That's all it would take to actually fix Ember for the average player. WoF combined with accelerant is the one thing that Ember has going for her that gives her a unique role in fissures over other frames. This new rework will just make her an inferior version of Mesa/Saryn and give her no real viable place in the meta and will be used even less than Ember currently is. Sincerely hoping the 2 and 4 reworks get reconsidered, but I'm sure it's far too late in development for that. RIP Ember, you've served me well these years.

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