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Jarriaga

That Ember rework... I may start playing her

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Um you just selectively ignore the fact that others have the same damage reduction WITHOUT the need for micromanagement

Yeah but those DR abilities are purely damage reduction with some extra effects on the side. It doesn't provide the same amount of utility that Immolation is providing which basically in a simple word amps to all her other abilities. 

 

41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Considering how much players generally hate ragdolling it's kind of comical that all of a sudden people like it..... oh great it's spammable, so was the old one, just slower.

People blow ragdolling out of proportion because you mainly see it with impact melee. I also think it needs to be toned down for those melee. The ability has cc with armor stripping so does it matter if there's a fire ring or not? 

 

41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

No it's not aoe, it's LoS, if it was aoe it would be 360 degrees.....

The targeting is line of sight the meteor hitting the enemy is an aoe. The effects might be deceiving tho but it doesn't matter because it spreads fire status.

 

41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Actually it's about speed/efficiency and choices... all the change is doing is basically reducing the number of frames and optimal weapons that can do the low content quickly and the options will reduce again when they change the next popular nuke frame.... which in turn increases the time/grind on those levels, you have to look at the bigger picture not just think oooh look they've changed ember to something shiny on a devstream...

Dude, EVERY weapon save for the worse weapons of them all can do low level content quickly. Just grab any weapon you modded and run through it or any warframe with an aoe ability same for everything really. If you want optimal, then the optimal weapons is ignis wraith and amprex, you don't even need a nuke frame. You're speaking of low level content like its high level content. Its not that difficult.

 

41 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

I get it you like the change but personally I don't based on the devstream, I think it's a downgrade, hell I thought the last rework was a downgrade too and it failed to solve the issues they set out to fix, this one fixes the wof issue by removing the frames mobility with that ability. 

My feelings on the change doesn't cement until I get my hands on it but what was shown is a straight upgrade to what she previously had. Just to list them 

  • Passive increases her power strength by 5% for each enemy on fire near her 
  • Damage Reducton from her 2 
  • Damage Amp from her 2 (Immolation)
  • Increased Casting Speed from her 2 
  • Armor Stripping with her 3 
  • An actual 4 that isn't a tickler that was nerfed WoF, also spread fire status if enemies come near each other. 
  • Not an energy whore anymore 
  • Added bonus of heat proc change where DoT stacks AND armor stripping 

Legit everything is just a straight upgrade and fully utilizes the heat proc change. Say what you want but if you seriously think any of this is a downgrade then something is wrong with you.

Edited by ShadowExodus
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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

That rework looks useful, powerful, and self-sustained. It also addresses enemy armor issues and defensive vs. offensive scaling.

Good job Scott! I don't play Ember, but what was shown got me highly interested as a melee player.

I know, right? I actually really liked playing ember through the starchart when I could. I'd love to see her rejoin the ranks of Saryn, Mesa, Volt and Equinox (and everyone else I have forgotten in my excitement... Titania!) 

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31 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

 

The targeting is line of sight the meteor hitting the enemy is an aoe. The effects might be deceiving tho but it doesn't matter because it spreads fire status.

which will only work if the enemies are actually near each other..... as I said it's all very well being shown in simulcrum because it's 'perfect for the shiny' but that doesn't mean it will work well outside of it.

31 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

The targeting is line of sight the meteor hitting the enemy is an aoe. The effects might be deceiving tho but it doesn't matter because it spreads fire status.

Dude, EVERY weapon save for the worse weapons of them all can do low level content quickly. Just grab any weapon you modded and run through it or any warframe with an aoe ability same for everything really. If you want optimal, then the optimal weapons is ignis wraith and amprex, you don't even need a nuke frame. You're speaking of low level content like its high level content. Its not that difficult.

Line of sight... considering how many issues there are with LoS in warframe, not sure that's actually a plus....

Still doesn't change the fact that the option is being removed... and odds are it will lead to the same thing being done to other frames.

 

31 minutes ago, ShadowExodus said:

My feelings on the change doesn't cement until I get my hands on it but what was shown is a straight upgrade to what she previously had. Just to list them 

  • Passive increases her power strength by 5% for each enemy on fire near her 
  • Damage Reducton from her 2 
  • Damage Amp from her 2 (Immolation)
  • Increased Casting Speed from her 2 
  • Armor Stripping with her 3 
  • An actual 4 that isn't a tickler that was nerfed WoF, also spread fire status if enemies come near each other. 
  • Not an energy whore anymore 
  • Added bonus of heat proc change where DoT stacks AND armor stripping 

Legit everything is just a straight upgrade and fully utilizes the heat proc change. Say what you want but if you seriously think any of this is a downgrade then something is wrong with you.

You do realise that a large portion of those above are due to the changes to fire status/procs....  they mentioned armour stripping as a status/proc for fire for example. 

  • The passive is only any good if the enemies are actually there.... as we've seen with nidus and to a point with saryn spores, if the player can't get the 'hit' to trigger the mechanics it's pretty useless.  I'm sure we'll likely see a cap on this too.
  • Damage reduction/amp after micromanagement from her 2 - we'll see how useful that actually is in the game rather than simulcrum (ignoring the fact they were still playing with numbers) but I still say I'd prefer a straight up damage reduction ability, I just don't like needing to micromanage stuff. 
  • To be fair just about every frame could do with a casting buff without the need for an ability just to do it.
  • Armor stripping - they mentioned this as being part of the fire proc, not to mention it's pretty redundant if all 4 players are running CP (which is still one of if not the most popular aura)
  • Her 4 has scaling now, unlike the old one... give the current one enemy scaling and the new fire status/procs and it wouldn't just tickle enemies.
  • Energy whore...um with all that micromanagement for her 2 you might find she's going to be heavier than the current ember which tbh is anything but an energy whore compared with other frames with drain abilities. 
  • Another feature of the fire proc not ember specifically....

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Posted (edited)

I'm surprised how noone mentioned that her new 2 and 3 are kinda similar to Gauss' 2+4 and 3 respectively:

2. Another meter that is increased by casting abilities, gives DR and increases speed.

3. Another radial Heat damage ability.

If there was no Gauss, I would really like Ember's new abilities, yeah, they are cool and stuff, but I'm disappointed that DE showed their laziness here 😞

Edited by bl1te
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1 hour ago, bl1te said:

I'm surprised how noone mentioned that her new 2 and 3 are kinda similar to Gauss':

2. Another meter that is increased by casting abilities, gives DR and increases speed.

3. Another radial Heat damage ability.

If there was no Gauss, I would really like Ember's new abilities, but... Yeah, they are cool and stuff, but I'm disappointed that DE put so little creativity 😞

to be fair I did kind of think that they're pretty similar, although you could argue that gauss copied ember first for the radial heat damage.  I also felt the same goes for the 'concept' behind embers new 4 and vaubans new 3, they both shoot stuff from in the sky (even indoors), one is to a single spot, one is to more than one target but the core idea of an orbital attack is the same.

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Posted (edited)

I think people are really underselling how strong of a damage buff Accelerant actually was, here. Though it was often awkward to use since heat wasn't that great of a damage type on its own. But it sounds like heat procs are about to get a lot better, so accelerant could've been REALLY good here. I wonder if it'll become an augment for her 3 or something...? They were both kind of just big waves of fire you shot off, anyhow, with differing effects.

Edited by OvisCaedo
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Gauss+New Vauban mashed together lazy style. Will switch to Saryn to keep Void Fissure Exterminations under 3 minutes.

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8 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

That rework looks useful, powerful, and self-sustained. It also addresses enemy armor issues and defensive vs. offensive scaling.

Good job Scott! I don't play Ember, but what was shown got me highly interested as a melee player.

I thought they said something in this recent Devstream about Pablo working on her. At least that's what I inferred when they mentioned his name. I'm guessing I'm incorrect though?

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8 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Accelerant was a lot of damage and was one of the best parts about ember.  Glad they're making heat procs relevant now, because as a damage type it has been bad for years in comparison to many other damage types.  

If you want to speedrun low content, put tons of range and strength on saryn and go to town with her 4 basically auto killing low level mobs with ease.  There are other frames, this change to ember is an overall positive in comparison to where she was previously.  

Anything can speed run low level content, I want to take ember into endurance. I don’t feel as though it’s fair that any warframe gets shunned into being a trash clearing machine. 

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1 hour ago, z3us32610 said:

I thought they said something in this recent Devstream about Pablo working on her. At least that's what I inferred when they mentioned his name. I'm guessing I'm incorrect though?

Scott handled the rework. A few weeks ago when posting some Vauban rework gifs in Twitter, he said he had some ideas for reworking Ember as well. 

They referred to Pablo when mentioning the design of her overheat meter, which was very distinctive. 

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I hate to copy/paste my own words from different discussions but this is my opinion on the Ember Rework:
 

51 minutes ago, GentlePuppet said:

Ember's rework looks interesting. I've taken a look and thought over the rework. And while I don't have any numbers to go on this is what I personally think.

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

  • New Passive - Spicy: Gains ability strength based on the number of enemies on fire within a range around her. Numbers aren’t final and are pending testing.

This sounds very promising. While I sometimes use her current passive to quickly charge up energy, either with some self procing fire weapons or those lil patches of flaming soot, this sounds much nicer to have.

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

  • First Ability - Fireball: This hasn’t changed too much. We fixed a lot of animation latency, should be able to spam it more easily.

This just sounds like a straight up buff if anything.

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

  • Second Ability - Immolation (Replacing Accelerant): When cast, Ember Immolates herself with protective fire armor. Her current level of self-Immolation is indicated by a unique UI indicator; the higher the heat, the more damage resistance, and the more effective Ember’s other abilities become.
  • Your first and fourth abilities contribute to this meter, your third lessens it. Make sure to manage it carefully, because if you fill it completely, you will overheat and unleash a wave of fire, expending all your energy.

Before Update 11.5 we had Overheat which was replaced by Accelerant. Overheat was basically exactly the same thing as Immolation but without the overheating ui part of the ability and instead of boosting abilities it would boost damage. So Immolation is just Overheat 2.0.
While I like this one I also hate it. I love the idea of once again having damage resistance on Ember so she's not as squishy in high level areas, but I also do like to use Accelerant. Using it to stun dangerous targets to unload into their faces or to coat a large area and then spam fire blast to quickly evaporate enemies will be missed. It's replacing a stun/damage boost ability with damage reduction. IDK if it'll be duration based or channeled. It sounds like it'll be channeled, But we'll have to see.

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

  • Third Ability - Fire Blast: This no longer uses duration, and instead is an AOE ability focused on armor stripping and CC. Knock back enemies upon cast, and melt their armor off! 

It looks like when they replaced Accelerant with Overheat 2.0 they combined Accelerant with Fireblast except they removed the fire damage boost it gave, and made it strip armor. Also instead of the enemies panicking (temp stunned) from being set on fire they just get knocked down which is basically the same thing. Sounds like it's a 2 in 1 spam move if it still deals damage. You can blast off armor and then it should deal more damage when you cast it again. But it probably won't deal as much damage as the old 1 2 of Accelerant then Fireblast currently does. So this could be a good buff or a nerf. (Stripping armor is always a plus tho so...)

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

  • Fourth Ability - Inferno (replacing World on Fire): Upon casting Inferno, all enemies currently within sight are struck by a fiery comet, lighting each target ablaze. As they run around with their pants literally on fire (those liars), they can also catch other enemies alight, spreading the blaze.

Instead of a channeled ability that burns and temporarily stuns enemies near you, it's a single use cast that lights enemies around you on fire and from the wording it sounds like they will panic and run around bumping into each other (or not maybe they'll just still walk/run around normally) and they spread the fire to others (Like Saryns Spores but they spread based on contact instead of shooting them.) It does sound a bit like a downgrade to me cause it's no longer a controlled forced proc and is reliant on rng of enemies running into each other.
We'll have to wait until we can test it our selves but I'm not sure I like that her 4th is getting replaced. Even with the range nerf it previously got I think I'll still prefer World on Fire over Inferno.

━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

It seems like they're changing her from being a mostly passive/slightly active dps with the ability to stun to a more supportive and mostly active dps frame designed to strip armor.

Overall I have to say I'm not entirely sure I like it. With the theoretical merging of Accelerant and Fireblast that should mean that her 2 isn't necessarily replacing anything but is added to her set while Fireblast just got some stuff added to it. This on paper sounds pretty ok, but we'll have to see when she gets released if it's any good.

Now, I think the only 2 reasons people are saying to "rework" ember was mainly because of Update 11.5 when you replaced Overheat and then Update 22.12 where you changed World of Fire, so once you fully heated up the range was reduced by double while the damage increased by 100%, instead of just being the set damage being at the set range that it was. These are what really set off the whole "ember was nerfed into the ground" and "ember sucks now" debates.
I Imagine if you kept the current rework you have set up but instead of changing World on Fire to inferno you reversed the range penalty, so it starts at half the range and reaches full range one fully heated up, as well as probably increasing the heat up time and either removing or lowering the damage bonus, then people would be very happy with this rework. I'm sure there are people who are already happy with the current rework you have set but I'm not 100% on it.

 

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4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Scott handled the rework. A few weeks ago when posting some Vauban rework gifs in Twitter, he said he had some ideas for reworking Ember as well. 

They referred to Pablo when mentioning the design of her overheat meter, which was very distinctive. 

Ahh, I figured I had misunderstood something in there lol. Thanks for clearing that up

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can finally pull her out of the trash tier bin 😛

how good she will actually be, remains to be seen.

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The more I re-watch the rework breakdown, the more I like it.

I just bought an Ember skin even though I don't use her. I'm that excited. 

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Posted (edited)

I both like and dislike her rework. Don't get me wrong, the good things are GOOD, but she's an entirely different Warframe now, and some things need further improvement:

Overall style change: Fireball was rather useless, Fire Blast sadly only saw use in niche situations, while Accelerant was spammed with WoF being on almost the entire time. The GOOD thing about old WoF, however, was the relaxed style - you could parkour and shoot and pay attention to the environment very well. I'm gonna miss that. And while Accelerant was excellent, it felt rather... placeholdery, in a way. However, if Fireball was made a better area denial skill, and Fire Blast had better utility (like the new armor strip), with Accelerant doing something different (like the "wildfire" effect of the new Inferno) along with the new FIre-proc mechanic, I'd be SUPER happy. But alas, the Warframe was entirely changed.

New style = Activate 2, spam 4 (1 is likely never gonna be used, still), use 3 to take down the overheating, rather than using it for its actual purpose. See the problem? The new overheat mechanic is what ruins everything. It's stressful, it takes away attention from the battefield over to a new and boring meter and it makes one ability (Fire Blast), not really used for its actual effect (i.e. its CC and armorstrip), but rather to make sure you don't lose all your energy (!). If the overheat mechanic was removed, I'd find the new Ember's kit nice. But as it is propsed currently, I instead hate it. It not only removes the relaxing part of her style, it swings the pendulum around entirely and makes her stressful. Yuck!

And: Fireball is still useless. It still uselessly has the charge-up mechanic (which also clashes with her augment). It still has a uselessly tiny lingering flame area. Remove the charge. Increase the flame area. Maybe it'd have a use then as an area denial skill, with costant fire-procs to melt armor and stack some DPS.

Fire Blast I like. Simple but effective, and SHOULD imo be her main AoE CC skill (rather than a tedious "overheat-remover")

Inferno seems ok, albeit spam-requiring and making Fireball even more redundant than old WoF (since it has a much quicker effect at a very long range). Not to mention, WoF would've functioned MUCH better with the new Fire-procs (constant ticking, both for DPS-stacking and armor-melting). Overall, don't like the change, but I could live with it.

Immolation I hate, as already explained, due to the whole overheat mechanic. Not to mention; It seems to be another fashionframe destroyer.

Edited by Azamagon

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure yet.. I'm kinda .. pissed that accelerant is gone.. with the augment it was quite nice..

I don't like her 1. It's just meh in actual combat especially in high level. (Don't know the impact of the new armor strip from fire though, but then again only useful against 1 1/2 factions)

Her 2 is cool, good to see the squishyness removed.

Her three.. meh, I didn't like the first iteration of it, gonna take me a while to decide if I like it.

Her 4.. idk man, sounds good on paper but then again, I need to see and use it in actual combat where the enemy isn't lined up perfectly,..

All in all I'm rather sceptical towards the rework.. we'll see.. 

Edited by (XB1)TyeGoo

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Im really looking forward to play her again! She was my first prime warframe and i loved playing her but in the current she is so bad that she barely, just barely, visble for sorties. The rework looks solid and hopefully, she will be a force to be recon with

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I said it before and will say it again, what reason does she LOSE an ability while Vaub gets his combined into a HOLD/QP? Accel should still be on her kit as well as her passive she has. Hek, she is the ONLY frame that gets something from her element and players have been crying that frames get effected by the element they are. Yet, no one has said nada about these depowers cuz we all in the "SHINY! NEW!" stage.

Am I the only one who thinks these changes would have been better on a new Fire frame more for dealing with Meteors and such instead of a Fire frame built to run wild through a forest and burn? Ember feel is staying grounded and sending waves of fire around.

I dunno ... She should have had these powers added to her kit instead of replacing them.

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37 minutes ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

I said it before and will say it again, what reason does she LOSE an ability while Vaub gets his combined into a HOLD/QP? Accel should still be on her kit as well as her passive she has. Hek, she is the ONLY frame that gets something from her element and players have been crying that frames get effected by the element they are. Yet, no one has said nada about these depowers cuz we all in the "SHINY! NEW!" stage.

Am I the only one who thinks these changes would have been better on a new Fire frame more for dealing with Meteors and such instead of a Fire frame built to run wild through a forest and burn? Ember feel is staying grounded and sending waves of fire around.

I dunno ... She should have had these powers added to her kit instead of replacing them.

Technically Accelerant is still in her kit entirely as her new Fire Blast. Accelerant gave a minor CC effect and increased fire damage, while her new Fireblast ragdolls enemies (stronger CC) and removes armor (a more practical damage boost than Accelerant). We also don't yet know what's happening to her augments yet and might just be strapped back on as they currently are.

Accelerant was her only "good" ability before, hopefully now her only bad ability will be Fireball. This is like the Wukong situation where his rework more than justified removing Defy when it was his only good ability.

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Got a 75% off, ripped myself off by selling a Jolt for 45p, and bought her deluxe skin. She's 180p on the Switch Primed, so I'll farm for more plat after I finish finally farming for her parts. I've neglected so many warframes in favor for their primes. Unfortunately, on the Switch, we've never gotten the chance for her Prime I think.

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21 hours ago, FoxyKabam said:

I don't really like the passive, 10m is pretty short range on a frame that will be tossing groups of enemies away from her with her 3. I'm glad world on fire is gone, the new one looks a lot more fun to use.

Scott has recently said on Twitter they are playing around with using affinity range instead.

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