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Balistica

Another great frame rework while Hydroid remains dead

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Posted (edited)

In the last devstream they showed the Ember rework (which is fantastic and makes my main feel neglected) and they talked about frames with bad outdated animations, but they didn't bring up Hydroid.  They also didn't say anything about a future Hydroid update in the post about the farm frame change revert. 
Feels really bad, I stopped playing as much because it feels really grim for Hydroid, I don't feel like his update did him justice and I don't see a rework coming soon.  I feel really cheated I guess, especially since every new rework to old frames gets sooo much more passion and flexibility than Hydroid's did.  
After the farm frame nerf, it really felt neglectful, and I don't even think his uselessness played a part in the revert.  Obviously after the rework, between Nekros and Hydroid, you would always choose Nekros.  But even before that, the only reason you chose Hydroid over Nekros was if you preferred him thematically, which I do, but 3000+ hours in and it really starts to wear on you knowing that the other options in your category are better than you.  I just think it should be a lateral decision to play Hydroid instead of Nekros, or they should both have types of missions they excel at.  But even if they were even in usability, I think both of them should be extended to other roles.  Frames that are purely farm get played so much less because of how few scenarios they fit, but I wanna play Hydroid in other stuff.  
I just feel crushed down a little more every update, my drive to play has been leaving me since the Hydroid rework.  Breaks my heart.

Edited by Balistica
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Just a guess, but maybe the didn't bring up Hydroid, because his last rework still holds up really well?

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

It does?

Yep. Hydroid is an extremely tanky CC frame with pretty good mobility, and plenty lethal if you're not in a rush.

[EDIT]

That said, I do think people don't get the way his kit works together. It takes a while to get used to how important/pivotal a role his 2+3 are in his kit. They're your initiate and escape, the source of your greatest resistance to damage, and a component of scooping up large numbers of enemies to magnify things like the massive damage output of stacking gas procs from melee attacks that hit multiple closely spaced enemies. His 2+3 are also both invincible from the very first frames of their casts, giving you excellent on demand invulnerability (which can be parleyed into healing or status immunity via augments).

Your 1 knocks down and gives you good flexibility to controlling areas around you and places you are not currently present, but also serves as your biggest melee damage steroid as enemies who're knocked down lose awareness of you as they stand, giving you the opportunity to apply melee damage with the same multipliers you would for stealth.

Your 4 looks superficially similar, a zone that CC's cast at range, but functions differently. It doesn't make enemies as vulnerable to melee attacks (if anything, it's terrible in that regard), but keeps them from moving around and works against enemies that often aren't CC'd by your 1+2, and won't be knocked down once they're kicked out of the puddle, namely, anyone under the effect of the Ancient Healer auras. It's also capable of dealing quite a lot of true damage, with damage done scaling both with power strength (per tick) and duration (number of ticks).

Hydroid does not have great synergy with weapons that require a lot of sustained/precision shooting (like the Tenora, single-target beam weapons, slow firing rifles like most sniper rifles and the Grinlok). He's got tons of ways to group enemies up and thrives on using AoE weapons to make the most of the time your vulnerable. Most mag dump weapons, or weapons that fire a couple/three shot sand reload fit fantastically as, provided you've emptied the magazine, you can reload while in puddle.

He is, in many respects, the anti-Vauban. Wanting to react and reflexively deal with situations and keeping moving ahead aggressively, instead of waiting for enemies to fall into your lap.

Edited by TheGrimCorsair
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2 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Yep. Hydroid is an extremely tanky CC frame with pretty good mobility, and plenty lethal if you're not in a rush.

[EDIT]

That said, I do think people don't get the way his kit works together. It takes a while to get used to how important/pivotal a role his 2+3 are in his kit. They're your initiate and escape, the source of your greatest resistance to damage, and a component of scooping up large numbers of enemies to magnify things like the massive damage output of stacking gas procs from melee attacks that hit multiple closely spaced enemies. His 2+3 are also both invincible from the very first frames of their casts, giving you excellent on demand invulnerability (which can be parleyed into healing or status immunity via augments).

Your 1 knocks down and gives you good flexibility to controlling areas around you and places you are not currently present, but also serves as your biggest melee damage steroid as enemies who're knocked down lose awareness of you as they stand, giving you the opportunity to apply melee damage with the same multipliers you would for stealth.

Your 4 looks superficially similar, a zone that CC's cast at range, but functions differently. It doesn't make enemies as vulnerable to melee attacks (if anything, it's terrible in that regard), but keeps them from moving around and works against enemies that often aren't CC'd by your 1+2, and won't be knocked down once they're kicked out of the puddle, namely, anyone under the effect of the Ancient Healer auras. It's also capable of dealing quite a lot of true damage, with damage done scaling both with power strength (per tick) and duration (number of ticks).

Hydroid does not have great synergy with weapons that require a lot of sustained/precision shooting (like the Tenora, single-target beam weapons, slow firing rifles like most sniper rifles and the Grinlok). He's got tons of ways to group enemies up and thrives on using AoE weapons to make the most of the time your vulnerable. Most mag dump weapons, or weapons that fire a couple/three shot sand reload fit fantastically as, provided you've emptied the magazine, you can reload while in puddle.

He is, in many respects, the anti-Vauban. Wanting to react and reflexively deal with situations and keeping moving ahead aggressively, instead of waiting for enemies to fall into your lap.

Calling him "extremely" tanky is "extremely" generous, all the new frames and reworks come with mad damage reduction or sustain, and the ones that don't come with lots of cc or damage.  His armor, health and shield are nothing special, especially his armor seems super low for the kind of frame he is.  You could say his 2 and 3 make him tankier, but those abilities have a plethora of problems.  His 2's scaling have been distributed all weird, so instead of the wave size scaling with range, and the distance scaling with duration, it just has the single scaling, and I think that was a dumb oversight in the Hydroid rework. 
His 3 also has problems when modded for, that being any reasonable range on the pull can only be achieved by dumping insane range mods into your build, and we both know Hydroid is sooo hard up for mod space.  In comparison to the new frames that only need 1 or 2 stats high to be functional, he needs most of his ability stats increased to make him just survivable, but then he also NEEDS his augment if you're farming with him, and on top of that, you still need to find room for Vitality/Redirection, and Adaptation to survive late game content.  (I think his augment should be integrated into his kit btw, they make a point of doing that for frames when an augment becomes core to their identity)

Just as well, when modded for 3 you end up spending an unreal amount of energy or time, to kill the same amount of enemies that other frames can do way faster, for way cheaper, from way farther.  By nature of the ability, it's not even clear to others that you can shoot into the puddle, but why would they even do that.  In a normal mission most enemies die before they get to you, because your teammates are playing reasonable frames.

  And all frames are plenty lethal if you don't want to rush, that's just like a contrarian way to say if he can kill at all he's fine.  I don't think it's unreasonable for me to want him to bring a similar amount of power to the table as other frames.
  Your 1 and 4's cc is incredibly inconsistent, and his 1 has a massive charge time and an underwhelming duration and range even when modded for.  It's very often for unclear reasons, enemies will just be walking around in your 4/1.  But not only that, as far as cc goes, it's sooo underwhelming.  No matter what genre of character we compare him to, he gets outperformed, tanks, cc, dmg, buffs, heals.  He goes even in farming with Nekros BARELY, he still has to work so much harder than Nekros, and his ability doesn't produce as much, but it's fairly negligible.

If you don't think it's necessary for all frames to be on the same level, I would argue that it IS necessary to benefit the most amount of people, and that the game only stands to gain from this.  In 2 worlds where 1 game has all the frames of roughly equal power, and 1 game where the frames very drastically in power level, it seems obvious which would make the most people happy.

In summary, I'm butthurt

 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yeah, he’s a little on the slow side, but he gets the job done just fine.

So is it ok for me to want him to kill at the same speed as other frames.  Do you think it's worth changing if he's under the normal standard?  Also what job is he getting done just fine?  Like lvl 120 content or like farming argon crystals on mot, because personally I want to use him in the same content I use Frost/Rhino/Saryn/Wukong/Inaros/Excalibur/Hildryn/Chroma/Volt and so on.  But as it stands I have to sacrifice more and more effectiveness the higher level I play, just to enjoy Hydroid's theme.  So do you think I'm justified in wanting him to perform as well as these others?

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Hydroids is both the most balanced frame after the rework and one of the most contrary frames to modern warframe.  His kit is great and blends well together but doesnt make sense for the current state of the game.  He requires adaptation or armor stacking to survive against higher level enemies (like a lot of the first frames that didnt have DR or shielding built in), but he also doesnt allow for movement to try and limit damage sources.  His abilities either require you to be stationary or charge for longer periods of times to make worthwhile.

Hydroids my favorite frame but its hard to spec him for late game without quickly running out of slots to mod him simply to do what every other frame can do easier and better.  He isnt a bad frame, and a lot of what would fix him is already present in his kit. 

Hopefully a Hydroid deluxe is coming in the horizon and DE can streamline him for future content.  Seeing a hydroid is like seeing a unicorn right now.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

Hydroids is both the most balanced frame after the rework and one of the most contrary frames to modern warframe.  His kit is great and blends well together but doesnt make sense for the current state of the game.  He requires adaptation or armor stacking to survive against higher level enemies (like a lot of the first frames that didnt have DR or shielding built in), but he also doesnt allow for movement to try and limit damage sources.  His abilities either require you to be stationary or charge for longer periods of times to make worthwhile.

Hydroids my favorite frame but its hard to spec him for late game without quickly running out of slots to mod him simply to do what every other frame can do easier and better.  He isnt a bad frame, and a lot of what would fix him is already present in his kit. 

Hopefully a Hydroid deluxe is coming in the horizon and DE can streamline him for future content.  Seeing a hydroid is like seeing a unicorn right now.

Wait if every other frame can do his job easier or better, by definition he is bad.  He doesn't meet the common standard of all the other frames.  If I just changed the word "bad" for the word "worse", I'm sure you would agree, but that's a dumb word game.  If he's ""worse" but not "bad" he still needs to be changed. 

Everyone seems to be allergic to coming out and saying a frame is bad.  Google's definition of bad is "of poor quality or low standard", Webster's definition is "failing to reach an acceptable standard".  He meets both these definitions.  You could say acceptable is subjective, but I would argue the most optimal standard would be that of the current best or average warframes.  We don't even have to use the word bad because it insults too many people, we can just say, like, unacceptable, poor, unfavorable, undesirable, detrimental, worse, subpar, below standard.  It's really just synonyms but people won't have such a natural bad reaction to the word.

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1 hour ago, Balistica said:

So is it ok for me to want him to kill at the same speed as other frames.  Do you think it's worth changing if he's under the normal standard?  Also what job is he getting done just fine?  Like lvl 120 content or like farming argon crystals on mot, because personally I want to use him in the same content I use Frost/Rhino/Saryn/Wukong/Inaros/Excalibur/Hildryn/Chroma/Volt and so on.  But as it stands I have to sacrifice more and more effectiveness the higher level I play, just to enjoy Hydroid's theme.  So do you think I'm justified in wanting him to perform as well as these others?

Sounds like you’re not using the puddle enough.

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Played Hydroid for a while now (outside of lazy puddle and pilfering setups), and I get that people don't like Undertow cause of its encouragement to AFK but he is far from being the worst frame in the game. His entire kit still spells lockdown/CC and he does both of them fine. Tried a few Sortie runs without using EHP mods, and only his abilities (avoiding Undertow) and so far the only times I took damage was if I was actually AFK. Yes, I know Sortie isn't exactly ""high level"" in 2019 standards, but that's usually the highest level a majority will go (or level 120 in arbitrations).

The thing about Hydroid is his niche and playstyle, he isn't a DPS oriented fast-paced frame like Volt/Excalibur/Wukong, just a CC frame with some scaling damage and a breather via Undertow. Not against DE reworking Hydroid's entire style to be more fast paced, but Hydroid is far from the worst frame in the game (Looking at Nyx/Atlas which just need touchups), and also development time for Railjack....

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Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Sounds like you’re not using the puddle enough.

Wait are you saying the puddle kills as fast as the abilities on other damage frames.  Maybe if Hydroid had 4 extra mod slots and there were a few more range mods in the game, slap like 3 strength mods on, some efficiency, some tank so you can do big boy content, and by golly ur right.  Find me the Hydroid that kills as fast as Saryn, or Mesa or any defense frame and I'll be astonished.
Listen I don't think it's thank controversial, when Hildryn came out, she only had to mod for like 2 things then just spam tank mods.  Same with Gauss, 1 or 2 ability stats then just spam tank.  It's the way the game is going and Hydroid got left behind.  I don't use the puddle anymore, because I know that whatever mobs I can kill with that, I can kill faster with Adaptation, Vit/Red, some range, and my weapons.  The game doesn't favor sitting in one spot and that's his whole kit.

Maybe if his 2 scaled in size with his range, I could sweep enemies through levels, then drown them all at once.  That took like 2 seconds to come up with, it's really not a very convoluted idea, but they missed that simple dumb idea in the rework.  He needs more base range on the puddle pull.  Just like with Hildryn and Gauss, he shouldn't have to mod for everything.

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Just now, Balistica said:

Wait are you saying the puddle kills as fast as the abilities on other damage frames.  Maybe if Hydroid had 4 extra mod slots and there were a few more range mods in the game, slap like 3 strength mods on, some efficiency, some tank so you can do big boy content, and by golly ur right.  Find me the Hydroid that kills as fast as Saryn, or Mesa or any defense frame and I'll be astonished.
Listen I don't think it's thank controversial, when Hildryn came out, she only had to mod for like 2 things then just spam tank mods.  Same with Gauss, 1 or 2 ability stats then just spam tank.  It's the way the game is going and Hydroid got left behind.  I don't use the puddle anymore, because I know that whatever mobs I can kill with that, I can kill faster with Adaptation, Vit/Red, some range, and my weapons.  The game doesn't favor sitting in one spot and that's his whole kit.

Maybe if his 2 scaled in size with his range, I could sweep enemies through levels, then drown them all at once.  That took like 2 seconds to come up with, it's really not a very convoluted idea, but they missed that simple dumb idea in the rework.  He needs more base range on the puddle pull.  Just like with Hildryn and Gauss, he shouldn't have to mod for everything.

You’re trying to compare Hydroid (a B tier Utility/CC frame) to Saryn (an A+ Damage/debuff frame).

I never said Hydroid was this top tier frame. I mean he used to be until ESO rolled around. Also Melee attacks no longer going through walls meant he could no longer use zenistar with his 3. 
 

Look Hydroid is no Nidus, but at least he’s no Revenant. He has access to armor strip, self/team healing, CC, scaling damage, and a pet squid. He doesn’t need a rework, and probably won’t for quite a few years.

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3 minutes ago, 4holes said:

Played Hydroid for a while now (outside of lazy puddle and pilfering setups), and I get that people don't like Undertow cause of its encouragement to AFK but he is far from being the worst frame in the game. His entire kit still spells lockdown/CC and he does both of them fine. Tried a few Sortie runs without using EHP mods, and only his abilities (avoiding Undertow) and so far the only times I took damage was if I was actually AFK. Yes, I know Sortie isn't exactly ""high level"" in 2019 standards, but that's usually the highest level a majority will go (or level 120 in arbitrations).

The thing about Hydroid is his niche and playstyle, he isn't a DPS oriented fast-paced frame like Volt/Excalibur/Wukong, just a CC frame with some scaling damage and a breather via Undertow. Not against DE reworking Hydroid's entire style to be more fast paced, but Hydroid is far from the worst frame in the game (Looking at Nyx/Atlas which just need touchups), and also development time for Railjack....

I feel like most people would rather play Nyx or Atlas in a random mission type than Hydroid.  Nyx has consistent cc and a really good armor strip.  Atlas's tank is integrated into his kit in a way that allows him to stay productive while staying tanky.  Not only that, but both of their reworks were undeniably good for them, especially Atlas's.  I seriously think Hydroid's was a lateral movement, before the rework he was better at spamming pilfer on the move.  I wanna know which DE staff member thought that more cast times was a fun idea.

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5 minutes ago, Balistica said:

I feel like most people would rather play Nyx or Atlas

I haven't seen any Nyx player for ages, and even rare Atlas players before the Atlas PA (maybe cause Jordas farm? idk). Chaos' CC isn't the best (cause enemies can still shoot under Chaos) but yea it still works, Atlas just needs more tweaks to Tectonics/Rumblers to be a nice frame. Nyx has more prevalent issues on her Mind Control having poor AI, and Absorb being an actually bad invulnerability/nuke mode for 2019 Warframe. Even Undertow doesn't drain energy as fast as an Absorb Nyx under fire, and Undertow actually can kill anything in its pool faster than Absorb ever will.

For Hydroid, the thing about old pilfer is that you'd actually need to gimp your range to get the Tentacles to spawn properly (along with the 12 tentacle limit). New Hydroid can easily do 12 tentacles for cheaper energy, and if you want to cover a bigger area you have to hold longer. Basically, cheaper tentacles in a more focused area or charge for more coverage.

I do think the charge times need to be shortened, and Tempest Barrage's extra duration should be innate. No real reason to charge Barrage since super low damage, and the bonus duration could just be innate instead of a 2.5s wait time. 

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Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re trying to compare Hydroid (a B tier Utility/CC frame) to Saryn (an A+ Damage/debuff frame).

I never said Hydroid was this top tier frame. I mean he used to be until ESO rolled around. Also Melee attacks no longer going through walls meant he could no longer use zenistar with his 3. 
 

Look Hydroid is no Nidus, but at least he’s no Revenant. He has access to armor strip, self/team healing, CC, scaling damage, and a pet squid. He doesn’t need a rework, and probably won’t for quite a few years.

I've gone through every category he could fit into and compared him to every frame, I'm not comparing him to Saryn exclusively, BUT, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a rework with that much love put into it.  CC/Tank/Dmg/Buff/Stealth/Farm  He's the very worst in all his brackets, except for maybe a few.  Now am I saying he's bad? No, of course not, he's just measurably worse in all the roles he could possibly fit into.  
Just because he has access to certain augments, doesn't mean they are good for him.  His heal puddle, his corrosive barrage, and his cleanse wave, shouldn't even be a thing, they should be integrated into his kit.  You CAN'T take this proposed build into reasonable level, you just can't.  You can have 1 augment, but even then you're so pressed for mod space.  His scaling damage needs strength and range to work, but a lot of it, and the strength doesn't even benefit your other abilities at a reasonable level.  Then you need efficiency for the puddle right, well that's already 3 ability stats for just that one ability before you've even thought about tank stats and augments.  So then you need Redirection or Vit, Adaptation, Rage if you want it, Natural Talent if you want it, and an augment.  Then on top of that, it won't even out clear a Hydroid running full tank, no abilities on a sortie map.

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2 minutes ago, 4holes said:

I haven't seen any Nyx player for ages, and even rare Atlas players before the Atlas PA (maybe cause Jordas farm? idk). Chaos' CC isn't the best (cause enemies can still shoot under Chaos) but yea it still works, Atlas just needs more tweaks to Tectonics/Rumblers to be a nice frame. Nyx has more prevalent issues on her Mind Control having poor AI, and Absorb being an actually bad invulnerability/nuke mode for 2019 Warframe. Even Undertow doesn't drain energy as fast as an Absorb Nyx under fire, and Undertow actually can kill anything in its pool faster than Absorb ever will.

For Hydroid, the thing about old pilfer is that you'd actually need to gimp your range to get the Tentacles to spawn properly (along with the 12 tentacle limit). New Hydroid can easily do 12 tentacles for cheaper energy, and if you want to cover a bigger area you have to hold longer. Basically, cheaper tentacles in a more focused area or charge for more coverage.

I do think the charge times need to be shortened, and Tempest Barrage's extra duration should be innate. No real reason to charge Barrage since super low damage, and the bonus duration could just be innate instead of a 2.5s wait time. 

I think they're all 3 rare players, but when proposed with what someone would rather play, I think very rarely will they say Hydroid.  Most Atlas players don't play him for the 4 they play him for the 1 2 and 3, so I don't think Atlas players really care about the 4 so much.  And I much prefer Nyx's cc to Hydroid's because Nyx's cc consistently hits everybody in the predicted area.  This might not even really be a complaint about the balance of Hydroid, just that sometimes enemies just don't care about his 1 or 4.  I agree that Nyx's 4 got left behind in her rework, it's impossible to charge to max so you'll never see it's massive base charged range, and it costs too much energy.  Anyway the only way puddle is killing anything is if you've modded for strength and range which means you have 150 health and shields, or you have no efficiency or augments, so might as well play Nova.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Balistica said:

Wait if every other frame can do his job easier or better, by definition he is bad.  He doesn't meet the common standard of all the other frames.  If I just changed the word "bad" for the word "worse", I'm sure you would agree, but that's a dumb word game.  If he's ""worse" but not "bad" he still needs to be changed. 

Everyone seems to be allergic to coming out and saying a frame is bad.  Google's definition of bad is "of poor quality or low standard", Webster's definition is "failing to reach an acceptable standard".  He meets both these definitions.  You could say acceptable is subjective, but I would argue the most optimal standard would be that of the current best or average warframes.  We don't even have to use the word bad because it insults too many people, we can just say, like, unacceptable, poor, unfavorable, undesirable, detrimental, worse, subpar, below standard.  It's really just synonyms but people won't have such a natural bad reaction to the word.

He isnt necessarily bad, he just lacks mobility or DR in his kit.  Change the puddle charge to a targeted puddle and still allow mod augment use with it and a lot of hydroids weaknesses are fixed.  He doesnt have tons of DR but now has the ability to move as well as provide a healing station to his party.  Has active CC that can be doled out to areas. 

 

Edited by (XB1)Dissodance

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13 minutes ago, Balistica said:

Anyway the only way puddle is killing anything is if you've modded for strength and range which means you have 150 health and shields, or you have no efficiency or augments

Yea, Atlas is fun to play with but I prefer if he gets more use out of Tectonics and Rumblers and not just the 3+1 spam. Puddle also, doesn't take forever to kill an enemy. It damage scales the more enemies you drown, and each of them takes %of their HP as damage.

Average kill times in a normal Undertow for me is around 5 seconds at 100% Strength (of course it won't replace Saryn/Equinox since it isn't a dedicated DPS frame). I usually focus on 130% efficiency and 100% strength, everything else goes into range/duration, no HP/shield mods either. Only augment I usually run is the acid rain augment, pilf swarm if in premade polymer squads.

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11 minutes ago, 4holes said:

Yea, Atlas is fun to play with but I prefer if he gets more use out of Tectonics and Rumblers and not just the 3+1 spam. Puddle also, doesn't take forever to kill an enemy. It damage scales the more enemies you drown, and each of them takes %of their HP as damage.

Average kill times in a normal Undertow for me is around 5 seconds at 100% Strength (of course it won't replace Saryn/Equinox since it isn't a dedicated DPS frame). I usually focus on 130% efficiency and 100% strength, everything else goes into range/duration, no HP/shield mods either. Only augment I usually run is the acid rain augment, pilf swarm if in premade polymer squads.

But that build is so bad for high level content.  Hydroid doesn't have a way of creating energy for himself and a reasonable amount of enemies in puddle is so harsh on his energy pool.  Then when you come out to move or when you total bankrupt on energy you just die.  While puddle doesn't take "forever" to kill, it takes longer than all other primary sources of damage in other frames' kits.  The reward isn't nearly worth the work you put in.  I don't think people care if it promotes an afk playstyle, I just think nobody wants to play an immobile glass cannon with the slowest map clearing abilities in the game.  The ideal scenario where all the enemies on the map are born into your puddle so you can start your dps clock is just fantasy.  Realistically, enemies trickly into the map and you lose your energy before you drown a few, or you're waiting way longer than any other frame would just for the satisfaction of drowning all the enemies at once.  Why would I sit in puddle and watch enemies die running toward me, when I can just play the normal frames and kill enemies before they get to hydroid.  

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1 hour ago, Balistica said:

But that build is so bad for high level content.  Hydroid doesn't have a way of creating energy for himself and a reasonable amount of enemies in puddle is so harsh on his energy pool.  Then when you come out to move or when you total bankrupt on energy you just die.  While puddle doesn't take "forever" to kill, it takes longer than all other primary sources of damage in other frames' kits.  The reward isn't nearly worth the work you put in.  I don't think people care if it promotes an afk playstyle, I just think nobody wants to play an immobile glass cannon with the slowest map clearing abilities in the game.  The ideal scenario where all the enemies on the map are born into your puddle so you can start your dps clock is just fantasy.  Realistically, enemies trickly into the map and you lose your energy before you drown a few, or you're waiting way longer than any other frame would just for the satisfaction of drowning all the enemies at once.  Why would I sit in puddle and watch enemies die running toward me, when I can just play the normal frames and kill enemies before they get to hydroid.  

Note that I usually run this for Sorties and such, and alot of frames don't have a way to generate their own energy outside of Zenurik. I mentioned that my playstyle is not exclusively tied to just undertow, and you do not exactly need to plop down in your 3 and move slowly. You can combo it with tidal surge to grab a mob yourself, and as already said Hydroid is not really designed as a map clearer like the popular DPS frames (and that is up to DE to even decide if they want Hydroid to be a DPS frame).

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7 minutes ago, 4holes said:

Note that I usually run this for Sorties and such, and alot of frames don't have a way to generate their own energy outside of Zenurik. I mentioned that my playstyle is not exclusively tied to just undertow, and you do not exactly need to plop down in your 3 and move slowly. You can combo it with tidal surge to grab a mob yourself, and as already said Hydroid is not really designed as a map clearer like the popular DPS frames (and that is up to DE to even decide if they want Hydroid to be a DPS frame).

They should probably decide if they want him to be an anything then double down on those features.  But he definitely has a very high energy cost for not having a way to replenish when compared to other frames.  Especially if you're pulling in this fairy tail amount of enemies.  Like I said though, I feel like it would always be faster to race through the mission with a fat health bar and a good weapon than to move from place to place and puddle.  That just really only speaks on how good he is at mobile modes anyway, as far as defense frames go, he's still one of the worst options for defense or intercept.  Any other wall or bubble frame > Hydroid for sure. 

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He's perfectly fine. His abilities fit thematically. He does looting. He also helps lock down  areas in modes like Interception or Survival, and is also part of the open world toroid farm. Some people spend majority of their time in those modes, it is good enough. 

To say he is bad because he does only a few things things is like saying Ivara is bad cos she's mainly for Spy or Chroma is mainly for Eidolon killing.

If you think all the above niches are bad - your alternative is far worse. Rebalancing all the niche frames into jack of all trades, arriving at a game where we have 40+ frames that are actually not unique in any way, just fashion reskins of one another, offering now real comparative advantage to one another, and are literal fashion frame.

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2 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

He's perfectly fine. His abilities fit thematically. He does looting. He also helps lock down  areas in modes like Interception or Survival, and is also part of the open world toroid farm. Some people spend majority of their time in those modes, it is good enough. 

To say he is bad because he does only a few things things is like saying Ivara is bad cos she's mainly for Spy or Chroma is mainly for Eidolon killing.

If you think all the above niches are bad - your alternative is far worse. Rebalancing all the niche frames into jack of all trades, arriving at a game where we have 40+ frames that are actually not unique in any way, just fashion reskins of one another, offering now real comparative advantage to one another, and are literal fashion frame.

If ivara was tremendously worse than the other stealth frames or tremendously worse than the other damage frames then she would be "bad".  But comparing them is unfair, Ivara does competitive single target damage, and her stealth is unique to her and effective.  Same with Chroma, it's not a fair comparison.  He is used dominantly for Eidolon hunting, but he offers a super flexible damage and resistance buff.  I predict people don't play him because his kit is very intricate, and you need a bunch of forma to play him at a high level, so I just don't think it's a fair comparison.  

Frames in the same category should be of similar power, so all frames that have kits that specialize in defending an objective should probably all be around the same power level.  When I pick between Gara, Limbo, or Frost, I don't feel like I'm being a huge detriment to myself just because I like the theme of one over the other, even though they're worse.
But just to be clear, I wanna confirm that you believe it's optimal for some of the frames to be worse than others.  Do you believe that the only way to get them close to eachother in usability in their given roles, is to make their abilities the exact same but with different textures?  Or is that just a radical exaggeration of what I was saying.

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