Another great frame rework while Hydroid remains dead

[000l000]

Il y a 9 heures, Balistica a dit :

In the last devstream they showed the Ember rework (which is fantastic and makes my main feel neglected) and they talked about frames with bad outdated animations, but they didn't bring up Hydroid.  They also didn't say anything about a future Hydroid update in the post about the farm frame change revert. 
Feels really bad, I stopped playing as much because it feels really grim for Hydroid, I don't feel like his update did him justice and I don't see a rework coming soon.  I feel really cheated I guess, especially since every new rework to old frames gets sooo much more passion and flexibility than Hydroid's did.  
After the farm frame nerf, it really felt neglectful, and I don't even think his uselessness played a part in the revert.  Obviously after the rework, between Nekros and Hydroid, you would always choose Nekros.  But even before that, the only reason you chose Hydroid over Nekros was if you preferred him thematically, which I do, but 3000+ hours in and it really starts to wear on you knowing that the other options in your category are better than you.  I just think it should be a lateral decision to play Hydroid instead of Nekros, or they should both have types of missions they excel at.  But even if they were even in usability, I think both of them should be extended to other roles.  Frames that are purely farm get played so much less because of how few scenarios they fit, but I wanna play Hydroid in other stuff.  
I just feel crushed down a little more every update, my drive to play has been leaving me since the Hydroid rework.  Breaks my heart.

Don't think a rework is fantastic until we can test it by ourselves.

People always pick up Nekros cause they're mostly spamming some spin-to-win all day long, his kit is boring as hell and not much effective except if you want to increase your drop chances. Nekros is in a far worse spot than Hydroid atm. Hydroid's kit could definitely get a tweak or two but if you know how to play and gear him, he's damn effective.

Anyway i guess that he'll get a rework at some point cause some of his abilities are now quite dated and since Grendel (soon) is looking a lot like him (but way more mobile) perhaps devs will share its tech, experience or whatever with Hydroid current powers.

[Balistica]

4 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Don't think a rework is fantastic until we can test it by ourselves.

People always pick up Nekros cause they're mostly spamming some spin-to-win all day long, his kit is boring as hell and not much effective except if you want to increase your drop chances. Nekros is in a far worse spot than Hydroid atm. Hydroid's kit could definitely get a tweak or two but if you know how to play and gear him, he's damn effective.

Anyway i guess that he'll get a rework at some point cause some of his abilities are now quite dated and since Grendel (soon) is looking a lot like him (but way more mobile) perhaps devs will share its tech, experience or whatever with Hydroid current powers.

I think nekros's 4 augment makes him good for a lot of content, but I do think he's got a couple missing abilities

[000l000]

il y a 3 minutes, Balistica a dit :

I think nekros's 4 augment makes him good for a lot of content, but I do think he's got a couple missing abilities

People are using his 4th only to give him better survivability. His minions aren't much useful except from a few eximus here and there. Khora's Venari is way better at killing stuff than a bunch of this guys (and it's way less visually disturbing when players are only choosing stupidly flashy colour as energy)

Edited October 5, 2019 by 000l000

[Xepthrichros]

I want frames to have roles and purposes, and that, by definition, means being good at some things and bad at other things, not everyone being mediocre at everything. I've seen people complain about Chroma like you complain about Hydroid, they want him to do more than eidolons, but be viable for stuff like Hydron. I pointed out Hydroid's strengths in interception, survival, and looting .You want him to do more. The danger of whenever people ask for reworks to make their frame which is already good at a few things, to become good at everything, is that DE might interpret the request for reworks the wrong way and the frame ends up so rebalanced so they become jack of all trades and master of none. We have enough jack of all trades already - looking at many of the recent new warframes. Do a bit of everything, excel at nothing, Gauss, Hildryn, Revenant, Khora, Gara, Baruuk, Wisp. All of them only offer fashion to me, I have yet to see any of them offer me a real comparative advantage for why I ought to pick them over some of the older niche frames like Ivara or Chroma or Nidus or Inaros or Rhino or Nova etc. when having a purpose to accomplish. That's all I am saying. And bad frames exist anyway, Nyx is one. That's where I expect to see reworks. Hydroid, still has good purpose and he can stay as he is. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Balistica]

29 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

I want frames to have roles and purposes, and that, by definition, means being good at some things and bad at other things, not everyone being mediocre at everything. I've seen people complain about Chroma like you complain about Hydroid, they want him to do more than eidolons, but be viable for stuff like Hydron. I pointed out Hydroid's strengths in interception, survival, and looting .You want him to do more. The danger of whenever people ask for reworks to make their frame which is already good at a few things, to become good at everything, is that DE might interpret the request for reworks the wrong way and the frame ends up so rebalanced so they become jack of all trades and master of none. We have enough jack of all trades already - looking at many of the recent new warframes. Do a bit of everything, excel at nothing, Gauss, Hildryn, Revenant, Khora, Gara, Baruuk, Wisp. All of them only offer fashion to me, I have yet to see any of them offer me a real comparative advantage for why I ought to pick them over some of the older niche frames like Ivara or Chroma or Nidus or Inaros or Rhino or Nova etc. when having a purpose to accomplish. That's all I am saying. And bad frames exist anyway, Nyx is one. That's where I expect to see reworks. Hydroid, still has good purpose and he can stay as he is. 

Just because your frame excels at one or two modes, doesn't mean they're as useful as the other frames in that mode.  So I didn't even respond to that point because why would I, my claim was obviously that in the modes he's good at, which is very few, he gets outperformed by everybody.   I think you can make all of the frames of similar power, IN THEIR ROLES, that means that Frost would be about as good as Gara and Limbo, but none of them would ever be considered especially good at exterminates or other mobile modes.   These are clearly not Jack of All Trades characters, these are defense characters, sharing a common standard for usefulness. 

They didn't lose their identity, I prefer the playstyle of certain ones over others.  I feel like this proves that you can get characters to a similar power level without them losing their core mechanics or identity.  This world you want where Gara has a clear power advantage over the other two, shouldn't exist, it's too detrimental to the people who like the themes of the other frames.  If you think a warframe's identity is attached to it's power level, then that's just how you choose what frames to play, but most people pick based on mechanical preference.  Anyway I never said all characters should be of similar power IN ALL MISSIONS, just in the missions they specialize in.  I also believe all characters should have a fair amount of missions they meet this standard in.  

We just disagree on what draws us to characters, you want clear power advantages, I want to choose based on theme and mechanical style.

Also there is no danger in asking for reworks, all the frames that have gotten really potent reworks have been met with overwhelmingly positive critique. 

[Xzorn]

What is worse about Hyrdoid? He scales to infinity and he can't die unless you make a mistake.

DE fully intended to nerf Undertow stacking but left it. Hydroid is straight up broken. Campy as hell but quite effective. The fact DE never got around to fixing Undertow's billions of damage stacking shows this game is entirely driven by popularity and not actual effectiveness. That's even just Solo. Throw a Nidus in the mix and Larva enemies into Undertow and Hydroid can hard carry an entire group without a single shot fired.

General rule of thumb in Warframe; the most powerful stuff in the game is what people aren't playing.

...and you should feel a huge determent picking Gara for a Defense mission. She sucks at it compared to Limbo and Frost. Even then unless everyone wants to melee or use Exalted weapons Frost is clearly better for group objective Defense. Immortal Globe being another thing DE said they were going to nerf and haven't.

[Balistica]

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

What is worse about Hyrdoid? He scales to infinity and he can't die unless you make a mistake.

DE fully intended to nerf Undertow stacking but left it. Hydroid is straight up broken. Campy as hell but quite effective. The fact DE never got around to fixing Undertow's billions of damage stacking shows this game is entirely driven by popularity and not actual effectiveness. That's even just Solo. Throw a Nidus in the mix and Larva enemies into Undertow and Hydroid can hard carry an entire group without a single shot fired.

General rule of thumb in Warframe; the most powerful stuff in the game is what people aren't playing.

...and you should feel a huge determent picking Gara for a Defense mission. She sucks at it compared to Limbo and Frost. Even then unless everyone wants to melee or use Exalted weapons Frost is clearly better for group objective Defense. Immortal Globe being another thing DE said they were going to nerf and haven't.

Almost had me there for a second

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, Balistica said:

We just disagree on what draws us to characters, you want clear power advantages, I want to choose based on theme and mechanical style

I actually also want mechanical style. But, mechanical style should not just exist for the sake of it. It should fit thematically and it should offer advantages over something else. Does it kill faster? Or does it offer a new way to mitigate damage? Or maybe both?  Does it make me have a new kind of mobility? Mechanical differences that appeal to me recently, are things like the improved  Wukong Cloud walker, the preview of Grendel's rolling. And Gauss, this newer frame almost appealed to me thanks to his Mach Rush, but its the other abilities that make wonder if he's worth it. By the way, I still use all the new frames, but for fashion and mucking around. When I want to get things done fast, or guarantee success for myself or the team, I won't bother with them..  If something requires pressing 5 button to accomplish the same thing someone else can do with one button, the 5 button character is a turn off. 

 

2 hours ago, Balistica said:

Just because your frame excels at one or two modes, doesn't mean they're as useful as the other frames in that mode.  So I didn't even respond to that point because why would I, my claim was obviously that in the modes he's good at, which is very few, he gets outperformed by everybody. 

Don't know what you are talking about. I've seen Hydroid dominate an interception game to the point I was wondering where are all the enemies. Turns out they were all drowning in his puddle. He's not as bad as you make him to be. 

Funny enough, you claim you care only about mechanics and theme but by saying he's outperformed, you are asking for a power increase.

I think it is more of a perception problem. I perceive Hydroid is good enough. You perceive him as bad, even though you main him. Well okay then.

[GreyEnneract]

"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good enough'."*

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, Balistica said:

Almost had me there for a second

 

You're over here talking about his trash meta loot stat that DE should have gotten rid of globally when Hydroid does %Max HP/s stacking damage and strips armor in a second while being immortal. He literally kills anything and everything in a few seconds regardless of level and has far less annoying team synergy than Mag or Zephyr.

Maybe you just don't know how to play or optimize the frame's value or don't understand he's very campy bordering on Octavia levels of sleep mode.

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

You're over here talking about his trash meta loot stat that DE should have gotten rid of globally when Hydroid does %Max HP/s stacking damage and strips armor in a second while being immortal. He literally kills anything and everything in a few seconds regardless of level and has far less annoying team synergy than Mag or Zephyr.

Not everything is about power level. You know why Hydroid is unpopular, his kit looks underwhelming. 

He has a canon barrage , cool. You try to recast it , only 1 active at a time.

He turns into a wave, cool. You use the skill and you become the tinies wave I've ever seen.

He turns into water , lame. It is effective , but really boring and slow.

He call forth a MOTHER#*!%ING KRAKEN. the actual skill just summons a useless kraken head and a bunch wacky inflatable TUBEMEN 

Do you think after that primed disappointment anyone would bother themselves into learning each skill mechanics and realise that the "most exciting skill "( the puddle ) use broken mechanics. NOPE. They just level him in pub game and forget he even exists. Sometimes that guy wants to farm and he learns that Hydroid has a loot argument. He removes hydroid of the trash , slaps the argument on his build. Them farms for a few hours. Hydroid finally gets some play respect , now his place is the storage. Until the player needs to farm again , he will stay there.

[Balistica]

11 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Not everything is about power level. You know why Hydroid is unpopular, his kit looks underwhelming. 

He has a canon barrage , cool. You try to recast it , only 1 active at a time.

He turns into a wave, cool. You use the skill and you become the tinies wave I've ever seen.

He turns into water , lame. It is effective , but really boring and slow.

He call forth a MOTHER#*!%ING KRAKEN. the actual skill just summons a useless kraken head and a bunch wacky inflatable TUBEMEN 

Do you think after that primed disappointment anyone would bother themselves into learning each skill mechanics and realise that the "most exciting skill "( the puddle ) use broken mechanics. NOPE. They just level him in pub game and forget he even exists. Sometimes that guy wants to farm and he learns that Hydroid has a loot argument. He removes hydroid of the trash , slaps the argument on his build. Them farms for a few hours. Hydroid finally gets some play respect , now his place is the storage. Until the player needs to farm again , he will stay there.

Cease this, you're falling for his trolling.  Anyway his puddle is only op in a paper scenario where like 6+ enemies spawn into it so they don't have to walk to you and you never have to come out.  In practicality, enemies take too long to trickle over to you and you get outdps'd by all the other frames, then when you run out of energy you have no sustain or way to get energy back, and since you dumped all your mods into your puddle (because it takes hella mods) you instadie in high level.  So it's not OP, it's for sure underpowered.  If we charted up time to kill in comparison to other frames, his would undoubtedly be very low in comparison to most other frames.

Edit* Just to be clear I mean map wide time to kill, or threat range I suppose.  Not time to kill from when an enemy steps into a puddle.  

Edited October 5, 2019 by Balistica

[Xzorn]

I'm not trolling there's just obviously a total lack in understanding of Hydroid going on here.

I mean first is the obvious that he can very much have more than one instance of Barrage active.
That and it being AoE is a key part in how he strips armor so quickly. You don't hold it either. You spam the hell out of it.
The second is you think enemies have to walk over while using Undertow when he pulls enemies in from a mile away and rapidly.

I'm not saying he's fun. In fact I already said playing him optimally is boring as Octavia but he's quite strong and you don't even really need to use him that way to get quite far. Does he ever stop being campy? Not really but he's also got some interesting group interactions besides the loot bot he's being claimed as.

______________

I'll lay it out step by step.  Find a hallway, room, some place with a good view. Use a Viral + Rad Zenistar. Slot Corrosive Barrage. Equip an Energize set. Throw Zenistar above you. Puddle and start pulling enemies in while spamming Barrage on yourself. Do this until you need to refresh Zenistar. Pop out, get like 10 procs from Energize on the enemies you killed. Throw Zenistar up again and repeat. It's a literal endless strategy. Scales forever and it counters Ancient Healer Auras well and Nullifier bubbles.

Other method is to Tentacle Swarm and Barrage spam a choke point. Survives just as well but doesn't scale forever. About lvl 300-400 but keeping the Viral + Rad Zenistar or any weapon able to proc Rad will keep him safe from Nullifiers and counter Healer Auras. Barrage and Tentacles will pretty much lock down everything else.

These are Solo tactics. His group tactics should be obvious enough I hope. He turns a massive single target DPS source like a sniper into AoE.
This is why DE keeps everyone playing against kid-friendly enemies. Players don't even know when something is busted good cuz all they can compare to is some lame AoE frame that doesn't scale past that trivial content. "Saryn takes all meh kills in ESO" yet you'll rarely see a Saryn Solo a 2 hour run. Wonder why...

[Balistica]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I'm not trolling there's just obviously a total lack in understanding of Hydroid going on here.

I mean first is the obvious that he can very much have more than one instance of Barrage active.
That and it being AoE is a key part in how he strips armor so quickly. You don't hold it either. You spam the hell out of it.
The second is you think enemies have to walk over while using Undertow when he pulls enemies in from a mile away and rapidly.

I'm not saying he's fun. In fact I already said playing him optimally is boring as Octavia but he's quite strong and you don't even really need to use him that way to get quite far. Does he ever stop being campy? Not really but he's also got some interesting group interactions besides the loot bot he's being claimed as.

______________

I'll lay it out step by step.  Find a hallway, room, some place with a good view. Use a Viral + Rad Zenistar. Slot Corrosive Barrage. Equip an Energize set. Throw Zenistar above you. Puddle and start pulling enemies in while spamming Barrage on yourself. Do this until you need to refresh Zenistar. Pop out, get like 10 procs from Energize on the enemies you killed. Throw Zenistar up again and repeat. It's a literal endless strategy. Scales forever and it counters Ancient Healer Auras well and Nullifier bubbles.

Other method is to Tentacle Swarm and Barrage spam a choke point. Survives just as well but doesn't scale forever. About lvl 300-400 but keeping the Viral + Rad Zenistar or any weapon able to proc Rad will keep him safe from Nullifiers and counter Healer Auras. Barrage and Tentacles will pretty much lock down everything else.

These are Solo tactics. His group tactics should be obvious enough I hope. He turns a massive single target DPS source like a sniper into AoE.
This is why DE keeps everyone playing against kid-friendly enemies. Players don't even know when something is busted good cuz all they can compare to is some lame AoE frame that doesn't scale past that trivial content. "Saryn takes all meh kills in ESO" yet you'll rarely see a Saryn Solo a 2 hour run. Wonder why...

lol

[Duality52]

In short, people want to do less effort for more results.

Due to this, Hydroid falls out of favor and Hydroid isn't on DE's priorities right now (Ember and Vauban, Grendel, as well as Empyrean).

Hydroid's rework was based around the current setting of Warframe's gameplay from two years ago, which was radically different in comparison to today (presence of enemies just straight up immune to CC like some Amalgams, larger Raknoids, etc. and just in general kill everything such as [E]SO).

[Leqesai]

Hydroid is dead?

This is news to me. I absolutely love his kit and playstyle. He wrecks at pretty much all levels, gives loot, and has awesome visuals on his abilities. 

If you don't like hydroid maybe it's because his playstyle just doesn't match with your preference.

[-Kobolt]

poor squid boy

he's pretty boring to play 😢

Edited October 5, 2019 by -Kobolt

[Balistica]

3 hours ago, Duality52 said:

In short, people want to do less effort for more results.

Due to this, Hydroid falls out of favor and Hydroid isn't on DE's priorities right now (Ember and Vauban, Grendel, as well as Empyrean).

Hydroid's rework was based around the current setting of Warframe's gameplay from two years ago, which was radically different in comparison to today (presence of enemies just straight up immune to CC like some Amalgams, larger Raknoids, etc. and just in general kill everything such as [E]SO).

Preach it brother

[(XBOX)EPOSSTYLE]

Hydroid needs a deluxe skin that has nothing to do with that pirate angle.

Speed his 3 up and make it highly steerable

A way to increase damg with his 4

Besides that I could think many different betterments than what's on offer 

[Balistica]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

Hydroid needs a deluxe skin that has nothing to do with that pirate angle.

Speed his 3 up and make it highly steerable

A way to increase damg with his 4

Besides that I could think many different betterments than what's on offer 

His abilities should paint the ground with water without him having to become imobile, then his 3 would sink any area that's wet.  His 1, 2, and 4 would create huge areas of water, and his 2 should increase in size based on range, with distance scaling on duration.  I think that sounds way more fun and like more consistent cc.  It would also make his drowning damage more viable.

[Cibyllae]

On 2019-10-04 at 1:04 PM, Balistica said:

(which is fantastic and makes me my main feel neglected)

fixed

[GreyEnneract]

Can someone here post a video of Hydroid trying to kill enemies with Undertow while an Ancient Healer and Disruptor are inside at the same time?

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

Can someone here post a video of Hydroid trying to kill enemies with Undertow while an Ancient Healer and Disruptor are inside at the same time?

Why would anyone post a video of doing something so blatantly foolish? You use your 4 to immobilize them and other enemies you've collected then move away to kill with your ranged weapon. Or use your zaw if that's your thing.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

Hydroid needs a deluxe skin that has nothing to do with that pirate angle.

Speed his 3 up and make it highly steerable

A way to increase damg with his 4

Besides that I could think many different betterments than what's on offer 

1. Agreed.

2. That's what your 2 and not being in your 3 is for. You do know how to bullet jump, right? Dodge roll? Use weapons?

3. Casting it from puddle doubles the damage it deals per tick.

[GreyEnneract]

5 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Why would anyone post a video of doing something so blatantly foolish? You use your 4 to immobilize them and other enemies you've collected then move away to kill with your ranged weapon. Or use your zaw if that's your thing.

Ah, so Undertow can't kill anything with either of them around.
It's a shame that they spawn so often then.
Thanks for replying!

[Balistica]

47 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

Ah, so Undertow can't kill anything with either of them around.
It's a shame that they spawn so often then.
Thanks for replying!

I feel like the real gotcha is, why would you use puddle to kill a group of enemies, when you can just kill the group of enemies outside of puddle faster.