Another great frame rework while Hydroid remains dead

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, GreyEnneract said:

Ah, so Undertow can't kill anything with either of them around.
It's a shame that they spawn so often then.
Thanks for replying!

 

That's the purpose of the Viral + Rad Zenistar I mentioned earlier. It disables Auras while they're inside Undertow and the Viral halves kill times.

Regardless of level enemies are dead in about 7 seconds with base 100% Power Strength. It ends up 90% Max Health damage per second by the end of Zenistar's duration of 45 seconds if somehow anything could actually live that long. Which nothing can. He essentially just plays like Octavia when doing long runs with Undertow.

[(XBOX)Dissodance]

13 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

That's the purpose of the Viral + Rad Zenistar I mentioned earlier. It disables Auras while they're inside Undertow and the Viral halves kill times.

Regardless of level enemies are dead in about 7 seconds with base 100% Power Strength. It ends up 90% Max Health damage per second by the end of Zenistar's duration of 45 seconds if somehow anything could actually live that long. Which nothing can. He essentially just plays like Octavia when doing long runs with Undertow.

If you need to rely on weapons to kill anything with it why not just use the weapons to kill faster than the puddle?  Is the puddle viable. Yes it is. Is it actually as good as or "better" in any way than a weapon or or warframe ability.  No, it isnt.  The only positive the puddle has is the invulnerability but is counteracted by the energy drain.  Building a warframe for DR and just moving and shooting will do exactly the same thing as the puddle faster and to larger amounts of enemies.  You can throw the zenistar and shoot them dead faster than you can puddle them dead.  Thats the problem.

No one is asking for an amazing and extremely overpowered puddle.  What most people want is an ability that is worth using in comparison to weapons.  The majority of new frames are built with that in mind. Take the new ember rework.  All of the abilities listed in the rework have a purpose.  Can weapons do the same thing?  Ya they probably can but they may not be able to do it in a large of area as her abilities.  They have a specified purpose and they are comparible if not better than weapons previously used to do that.

Hydroid had that when he was reworked originally,  with new updates and the way the game is going for future content hes now missing something.  Whether its changing his passive to throw water on the ground, healing himself with water damage, or allowing his puddle to be charged cast on ground instead of yourself something is missing.

[Teridax68]

I'm somewhat confused as to how people are claiming that Hydroid is in any kind of a good state, or that his rework helped him significantly, as he is still infamous for having such a poor kit that picking him is almost an exercise in playing a frame with no abilities at all. His passive is ineffective at best, and at worst unhelpful in how it can unintentionally break stealth. His 1 has anemic damage, knockdown CC that will often make it harder to hit enemies in weak spots than anything else, and at best a Corrosive proc for utility at a time where plenty of other effects can strip enemies instantly of far more armor, all wrapped up in unreliable delayed scattershot mini-AoEs, which the charge-up does not help with in any way (charge-up mechanics are generally not a good idea in Warframe). His 2 is similarly disruptive in its CC, and is a poor fit in Warframe's current movement scheme due to its restrictions. His 3 is a sub-par area denial CC effect that also has the dubious honor of removing most of Hydroid's agency, and while its invincibility and healing augment are useful, Hydroid needs to completely halt his pace in order to benefit from either. His 4, like the rest of his abilities, is more of an inconvenience than a benefit due to how its tentacles throw enemies around unpredictably, and with the rework to loot effects, there have been better frames to outright replace what was arguably Hydroid's only desirable quality, i.e. Pilfering Swarm. There is no part of his ability set that fits in a modern-day Warframe, and everything he does is done immensely better by plenty more frames that also provide more, while also not being quite so horribly clunky. He definitely needs a rework, and while I'm not faulting DE for not giving him attention over Ember or Vauban (both also seriously need reworks), I do agree that they should pay attention to him soon after.

[XenMaster]

His corroding Barrage and Pilfering Swarm the only thing keep him alive.

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Dissodance said:

-Snip-

 

You missed or ignored the entire point of scales to infinity. Define "better" and maybe we can have a debate over something but if you decide to shoot a lvl 1,300 Armored Bombard with your weapon I think you'll find the puddle is quite a lot faster. To add into this. no amount of DR and I mean no value outside 100% can beat invulnerable.

Shooting is not the same thing, DR is not the same thing. Literally nothing you said was objectively accurate. You are comparing practical performance based on your own play style or experience. That is not the same thing as numerical or potential performance.

Don't even get me started on new frame design either. It's complete trash. Step 1: Make a theme. Step 2: Add thematic Avoidance / Mitigation, Step 3: Add thematic Damage output, Step 4: Add thematic low performance CC / Debuff, Step 5: Make it look like they're not coping the same formula for every frame.

At any rate I didn't say Hydroid was fun. I didn't say he was built well either but bad / garbage is not words I would use to describe him.

[Duality52]

17 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I didn't say he was built well either but bad / garbage is not words I would use to describe him.

At best, Hydroid's average. Not overpowering or too underpowered. But again, due to the shift of gameplay compared to two years ago to the present, Hydroid fell out of favor in comparison to frames who offer more results for less effort (Mesa, Saryn, Equinox).

Undertow should not be heavily relied on since it's slow (even with Tidal Surge), and there are enemies that can/will force you out of the puddle (Nullifiers, Ancient Healers and Disruptors, enemies just immune to CC like Kuva Guardians). It's also really easy to drain most of your energy while Undertow as a result due to the enemies drowning and armor heavily reducing your drowning damage, which forces you to rely on something else to strip said armor.

 

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Duality52 said:

At best, Hydroid's average. Not overpowering or too underpowered. But again, due to the shift of gameplay compared to two years ago to the present, Hydroid fell out of favor in comparison to frames who offer more results for less effort (Mesa, Saryn, Equinox).

 

That's how this game goes. Around every 2 years DE has so servery altered the play experience into something else that things fall off the radar.

I learned long ago to play what I enjoy and not what DE tries to push on me.

I did nothing but endurance runs and push frames to their limits for 5 years in Warframe. I like to make builds. I don't like to spend 3 hours in a mission however which is why now I pretty much don't play. I have more plat than I could ever spend so I will never have to subject myself to all that awful game design you're talking about.

So when a player is not bound by rewards, Focus gains and the plentiful other bad designs of the game. How does one define "good"? I mean it's a farming game so technically the fastest method is the best method which means we should all be playing the same two or three frames, right?

Hydroid has a few things he's absolutely broken at doing. Not saying fun. Not saying "good" just powerful which is more than most.

[EinheriarJudith]

only things id like to see go from hydroid are those press and hold gimmicks. i actually like the rest of hydroid now barring some QoL. with ember it looks like DE found a way to cop out of fixing heat damage in general. her reworks isnt going to be good. they could have just gave her DR in world on fire and that would have shut most people up. nah now they gave another frame armor strip because they dont want to take the time to fix armor scale.

Edit: btw adding micromanagement to frames does not make them fun/more fun.

Edited October 8, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[keikogi]

On 2019-10-07 at 12:54 AM, Xzorn said:

 

You missed or ignored the entire point of scales to infinity. Define "better" and maybe we can have a debate over something but if you decide to shoot a lvl 1,300 Armored Bombard with your weapon I think you'll find the puddle is quite a lot faster. To add into this. no amount of DR and I mean no value outside 100% can beat invulnerable.

Shooting is not the same thing, DR is not the same thing. Literally nothing you said was objectively accurate. You are comparing practical performance based on your own play style or experience. That is not the same thing as numerical or potential performance.

Don't even get me started on new frame design either. It's complete trash. Step 1: Make a theme. Step 2: Add thematic Avoidance / Mitigation, Step 3: Add thematic Damage output, Step 4: Add thematic low performance CC / Debuff, Step 5: Make it look like they're not coping the same formula for every frame.

At any rate I didn't say Hydroid was fun. I didn't say he was built well either but bad / garbage is not words I would use to describe him.

Do you realise that your whole point of hydroid having % MaxHP damage is rendered pointless by magus lockdown. Any combination of armor striping and magus lock down can do the same but faster. Any warframe has access to %maxHP damage on top of an usefull kit. 

[Xzorn]

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Do you realise that your whole point of hydroid having % MaxHP damage is rendered pointless by magus lockdown. Any combination of armor striping and magus lock down can do the same but faster. Any warframe has access to %maxHP damage on top of an usefull kit. 

 

How is it pointless? I'm sorry is there only one way to accomplish something? I was unaware of this rule.

It's not specifically doing %Max HP damage either. I said SCALES INFINITELY. This means in both damage and surviving.
Banshee can hit the binary damage cap. Good luck making use of that Solo.
I'm sick of arguing such a basic principal. Keep complaining. I'm sure DE will get right on it. /s

[keikogi]

Just now, Xzorn said:

 

How is it pointless? I'm sorry is there only one way to accomplish something? I was unaware of this rule.

It's not specifically doing %Max HP damage either. I said SCALES INFINITELY. This means in both damage and surviving.
Banshee can hit the binary damage cap. Good luck making use of that Solo.
I'm sick of arguing such a basic principal. Keep complaining. I'm sure DE will get right on it. /s

If you don't leave the puddle the odd nulifier will S#&$ all over your plans. If You do leave it you are going to die.

If we are going to leave nulifiers out od the converaation. You can do a more usefull version of infinitily scaling damage with limbo , cataclism , armor stripping gun and arcane magus lockdown. 

[Xzorn]

11 minutes ago, keikogi said:

If you don't leave the puddle the odd nulifier will S#&$ all over your plans. If You do leave it you are going to die.

 

Yea, if only he had an ability that could break down Nullifier bubbles quickly and CC them before leaving the puddle....
Wouldn't it be cool if it also striped armor and he could use it while being in puddle? Man... if only.

btw Limbo can deal with Nullifiers fairly well. Just needs Rolling Guard and out of everything you've mentioned Garuda scales best with lockdown.
She just can't fight Grineer.

[swiftasacoursing]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Yea, if only he had an ability that could break down Nullifier bubbles quickly and CC them before leaving the puddle....
Wouldn't it be cool if it also striped armor and he could use it while being in puddle? Man... if only.

shhh don’t reveal every hydroid main’s secret

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

out of everything you've mentioned Garuda scales best with lockdown.
She just can't fight Grineer.

^^ Very true

[Duality52]

16 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I learned long ago to play what I enjoy and not what DE tries to push on me.

Indeed. I'm somewhat bummed to see the same popular frames/weapons (Mesa, Saryn, Ignis Wraith, Catchmoon, Fulmin, people who bring those to an Elemental Enhancement?) over and over when there are other choices that, while they can be inferior, it provides that spice of life in the game that you don't see often.

It's also how I keep myself occupied even though I reached MR 27; return to something I've tossed aside before and try them again rather than keep using the same loadouts. As an example, Atlas Prime Access right now provided me the opportunity to return to playing Atlas again for fun. I'm still working on the Tekko Prime even though many despise Fists and Sparring weapons.

[EinheriarJudith]

35 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Indeed. I'm somewhat bummed to see the same popular frames/weapons (Mesa, Saryn, Ignis Wraith, Catchmoon, Fulmin, people who bring those to an Elemental Enhancement?) over and over when there are other choices that, while they can be inferior, it provides that spice of life in the game that you don't see often.

It's also how I keep myself occupied even though I reached MR 27; return to something I've tossed aside before and try them again rather than keep using the same loadouts. As an example, Atlas Prime Access right now provided me the opportunity to return to playing Atlas again for fun. I'm still working on the Tekko Prime even though many despise Fists and Sparring weapons.

i only despise them because of poor hitbox. infested are the worst to melee with anything that isnt a polearm. i also agree with xzorn on that post. ill prolly shelf ember as adding micromanagement for no reason is not interesting to me in the slightest.

[NightmareT12]

21 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i only despise them because of poor hitbox. infested are the worst to melee with anything that isnt a polearm.

I don't think it's even the hitbox: Anything CQC feels worse because Melee 2.0 (and I guess 3.0) is basically a hack and slash implementation of sorts, but without a key feature: Lock on enemy. So you can't really make it work *properly* with short range weapons.

[Monolake]

I love how Hydroid is supposed to be a CC frame, but all his skills are rendered useless by the demolysts in the new latest mode

Edited October 8, 2019 by Monolake

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Duality52 said:

Indeed. I'm somewhat bummed to see the same popular frames/weapons (Mesa, Saryn, Ignis Wraith, Catchmoon, Fulmin, people who bring those to an Elemental Enhancement?) over and over when there are other choices that, while they can be inferior, it provides that spice of life in the game that you don't see often.

It's also how I keep myself occupied even though I reached MR 27; return to something I've tossed aside before and try them again rather than keep using the same loadouts. As an example, Atlas Prime Access right now provided me the opportunity to return to playing Atlas again for fun. I'm still working on the Tekko Prime even though many despise Fists and Sparring weapons.

 

That's what got me into endurance runs so long ago. There is no meta.

You can combine all sorts of frames, weapons, arcanes and builds to accomplish the goal of just pushing hard as you can against the meanest enemies you can. Of course it's intrinsic. You get nothing for doing it other than fun with possibly deeper knowledge of frames and mechanics in the game which for the most part is slowly becoming useless knowledge in the Warframe of today with all it's immunity and trivial content. Why I mostly just speed grind or avoided that stuff.

I got my Arcanes / weapons from PoE and Fortuna and never went back unless a Riven forced me to.

Power Creep has just made the time investment to test out different builds unreasonable at this point so I no longer really play. All this content drought and players wanting new content while the whole time I was being entertained by the same few missions they released years ago just by combining different methods.

[PsiWarp]

I'd like Tentacles to drag enemies they capture to the base of the tentacle, instead of throwing them around. Easier to aim at and kill with guns, enables ground finisher for melee, and helps Undertow drown them if the tentacles are on top of the pool.

[Howtoshootgun]

13 hours ago, Xzorn said:

All this content drought and players wanting new content while the whole time I was being entertained by the same few missions they released years ago just by combining different methods

Yea think thats the obvious trap they fell into. If your content is repetitive/cant sustain players alone you gotta offer radically different (optimally viable) ways to play it. Just look at Diablo or the like - same S#&$ for years but different builds and the randomized drops leading to (mostly) different setups kept it fresh.

Warframe now is just max deepeess and everyone burns thru the little content bites and then gets bored. They try to counter that by introducing bullS#&$ty immune or spongey enemies it seems. Its partially a player made problem. When arbitrations were new i actually pugged again and it was pretty fun for a while but then the speedvas started filtering in and the ol "dont use chaos it makes everything slower" song started again. Everything which isnt max dps meta exploding a room in one second must die but oh no we burned thru the starchart and now theres nothing to do. And DE actively supports this with their design. Just look at the murked Nyx rework. DPS and armor stripping introduced into what used to be a pure CC frame. And a CC passive sacrificed for a lousy dps gain. Still pissed after all this time better stop before rant about ~~*rework*~~ again bai

Edited October 9, 2019 by Howtoshootgun
:3

[Xzorn]

32 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

And DE actively supports this with their design. Just look at the murked Nyx rework. DPS and armor stripping introduced into what used to be a pure CC frame. And a CC passive sacrificed for a lousy dps gain. Still pissed after all this time better stop before rant about ~~*rework*~~ again bai

 

Oh man, 900 hours in-mission on my Nyx and haven't played her since that rework and I agree. Would even go further to say it's a good example of what's happened to the game over time. I can't think of any other game where CC is considered a bad thing. Esp the strong as hell CC we have in this game or had I should say.

One of the Path of Exile creators did a good conference at GDC about sustainable content and making a game to be played forever. They touched on a lot of what I always found to be basic concepts that elude DE to this day. Things like integrating layers. Diablo does this as well. The core game is built so that content not need be drastic in order to fundamentally alter the game enough to remain interesting to players. Diablo even does the bare minimum of this.

Warframe instead makes these mini-games of content that have near nothing to do with each other. A good example would be the Vallis Alert system. Why is that not in other parts of the game? It's a great way to allow players to choose their own level of difficulty naturally as they play. Why aren't their multi dynamic missions like Bounties in the normal game? Why can't I pick a mission that starts out as a Defense then turns into a Survival.  Mini-bosses. Alternate objectives with bonus rewards. All these things could be in one single mission and randomized to a point where playing the same thing doesn't feel stale as quickly.

When done well these layers of content also appeal to a larger audience without alienating any specific group. You could be the guy who wants to stack 5 stars, fight mini-bosses while trying to survive and complete a side objective against lvl 400 enemies all at once or you could be the guy who just chills and does random objectives. Then all they have to do is add a new frame, a new boss or a new objective and the whole thing gets invigorated with play value again.

[AzulMage]

Really, the problem with Hydroid is the same as the game overall and what has been mentioned by many of you above. He is really a CC frame (though I still question his 1 and 4 CC effectiveness at times since they aren't hard  CC and/or create chaos) in a game that is actively making CC less relevant. New enemies are armored/healthed up like crazy and immune to  all CC (Hydroid cannot do anything to Demolyst for example). So damage is the way to go.

 

Sure, his 3 has infinite scaling....but many things are immune to his 3 because it's firstly a CC move. Also,as many have said, regardless of the infinite scale it's usually a slower way to kill high level enemies.

Maybe the solution would be to make CC relevant again. I've asked about it before on Dev stream threads because I remember a previous dev stream where they said they would address CC not being used anymore

[(PSN)yandelyandel2000]

What about combining Tidal Surge with Undertow?

Leaves for a new ability and a more streamlined mobile/CC Undertow 

I'd say that Vauban's Vortex and Bastille needed less reason to be combined (and those did combined) than Tidal Surge and Undertow

[EinheriarJudith]

9 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

I'd like Tentacles to drag enemies they capture to the base of the tentacle, instead of throwing them around. Easier to aim at and kill with guns, enables ground finisher for melee, and helps Undertow drown them if the tentacles are on top of the pool.

id make the tentacles grab and hold them in place (no ragdoll), allowing players to shoot the enemy or tentacle to deal damage. dead bodies drop to the ground allowng them to grab and hold more enemies. while storing the damage already absorbed from gunfire for its duration.

Edited October 9, 2019 by EinheriarJudith