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Ember and Vauban Revision Discussion


PsiWarp
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According to the latest info from Devstream 131, Ember and Vauban will be receiving major changes to their abilities listed below for your convenience.

 

Ember

Heat Status Effect:

  • Damage from multiple procs of Heat can stack. Now also reduces enemy armor, amount and method (melt over time, or a chunk removed instantly, etc) are being tested.

Passive (New):

  • +5% Ability Strength per enemy being burned by a Heat proc within 10 meters from Ember. Currently uncapped.

Fireball:

  • Fixed latency problem causing tap-cast and hold-casts to require precise player hotkey input. Now should feel smoother when you spam the ability.
  • Builds heat for Ember's new 2nd ability, Immolation, for its Heat meter.

Immolation (New 2nd Ability):

  • Activate for an initial energy cost to give Ember 50% damage reduction and maintains a Heat meter above the ability icons. Damage reduction percentage scales up as Heat meter rises.
  • Heat is a new resource unique to Ember. Heat slowly rises while the ability is active. Ember can heat up faster by killing enemies, casting Fireball and her new 4th ability, Inferno. Ember can release heat by casting Fire Blast.
    • The higher the heat meter, the more damage Ember's abilities deal, as well as increasing the casting speed.
  • When the heat meter is full, Ember automatically releases it all as an area of effect with high damage, depleting the meter, ending the ability, and also potentially draining her Energy (being tested). To prevent energy drainage, use Fire Blast to expend some Heat or end the ability early by deactivating it.
  • Currently does not have energy drain per second.

Fire Blast (Reworked):

  • Lingering ring of fire is removed.
  • Expanding firewall inflicts Heat damage, proc, and also reduces enemy armor amount based on the Heat meter level from Immolation.
  • Releases an amount of heat from Immolation's Heat meter per cast.

Inferno (New 4th Ability):

  • Ember summons fiery comets that come crashing down from above, onto each enemy in range and in her field of view. Enemies hit by the inferno are blasted away by the explosive impact, receive damage, suffer a Heat proc, and emits a spreading wildfire area of effect debuff on them that sets other nearby enemies ablaze.
  • Builds heat for Ember's Immolation Heat meter.

 

Vauban

Passive:

  • Remains the same, still provides +25% damage against incapacitated enemies.

Tesla:

  • Tap-cast throws 1 Tesla onto the ground that deploys into a miniature roller. The Tesla roller will follow Vauban if there are no enemies nearby, then attach to an enemy to keep it stunned with electricity, dealing damage and proc, while also generating an area of effect electrical pulse around their target to damage other enemies in range.
  • Hold-cast to juggle up to 4 Teslas, release to throw and scatter them out to deploy them into their roller forms.
  • Tesla rollers have a limited amount of charges before they expire.

Minelayer (All-New Mines):

  • Energy cost reduced to 25 energy per cast.
  • All four mines have been replaced with new additions.
    • "Sticky Ripline" - throw next to enemies, energy lines latch onto them and pull them into the mine ragdolled and unable to move. The energy lines are elastic- enemies stuck to this mine will be pulled back into the mine if they are knocked away. This mine can also attach to enemies or allies you throw it at, causing enemies to be dragged along for the ride.
    • "Nail" - deploys a mine that shoots energy nails at enemies in range, dealing Puncture damage and proc, while knocking them back slightly on hit. Appears to function similar to the Azima's bullet disk.
    • "Boost Pad" - deploys a speed pad on ground pointing toward the throw direction, works similarly to Bounce. Move across the pad to propel yourself toward the pad's arrow direction at high speed. Deploy multiple pads to keep speeding up, being especially noticeable on Landscapes like Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis. Can be set-up to pinball around.
    • "Damage Amp" - throws a mine onto the ground that homes in on Vauban or nearby ally Warframes that come in range to stick onto them. Provides a direct damage bonus for a duration to the recipient.

Orbital Strike (New 3rd Ability):

  • Vauban performs a power throw to launch an orb toward the targeted location. When the orb lands, a cannon from orbit charges up to launch a devastating torrent of energy onto the beacon, dealing area of effect damage to all enemies in the radius, as well as blasting them away.
  • The damage this ability deals scales with the level of enemies standing near the beacon.
  • Can throw multiple orbs one after another, strike after strike.

Bastille (New 4th Ability):

  • New casting animation being worked on, fancy twist in the air and throw.
  • Tap-cast throws a Bastille orb, once deployed suspends enemies already in range or coming into range. Enemies in Bastille have their armor stripped over time; the longer they stay suspended, the more vulnerable they become. Ally Warframes inside Bastille gain bonus armor based on the amount stripped from the enemies within.
  • Hold-cast throws a Vortex orb, once deployed constantly drags in enemies to the center ragdolled, receive damage per second, and Magnetic procs.
    • Launching an Orbital Strike orb into the Vortex centers the strike there. Once the strike hits, enemies that survive will still stay trapped in the Vortex.
  • Holding down the ability key will convert all active Bastilles into Vortex. If multiple Bastilles are in range of each other, converting them into Vortex will cause them to move toward each other until they collide, dragging along all the enemies trapped inside them.
    • When a Bastille's duration ends, it will briefly turn into a Vortex for a short time before it disappears.
  • Can deploy multiple Bastilles and Vortexes.

 

^ Also check this out, worth the read!

Edited by PsiWarp
updated with info from dev workshop
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I noticed on Ember's new #2 that it kinda sneaks up to the max; I think it would be cool if there was a 5-sec grace period where the screen lights up in flame or something before it reaches max just as an indication to the player that her 2 is about to cap. 😄 fun looking reworks!!

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Losing Accelerant seems like a big nerf to Ember's survivability, this would most likely put her below Banshee in terms of squishiness without some form of CC like Accelerant's stun. Her new passive requiring enemies to be within 10m is a suicide mission unless it scales with range. Honestly I would combine Accelerant and Fireblast, keeping the stun from Accelerant and the AoE/Heat Dump from Fireblast (Immolation fulfills the increased heat damage from Accelerant already). I suppose this is nothing that Adaptability couldn't patch up but I think its worth looking at. Another solution would be giving Ember DR as her Immolation meter fills, this has been a very common suggestion in past Ember discussions, and its a good idea imo. 

 

I missed the bit where Immolation actually gives up to 50% DR, woops. Embers looking great boys (though 50% is a bit small but I'll take it). I do hope her passive scales with range still though.

 

Vauban looks a bit more like Nidus in that he seems to rely on pulling enemies in and killing them, however his cast times are far too slow, Natural Talent would be a must have if it shipped like this. The orbital strike is cool and all but a grenade that just explodes on contact would be far better than something with a 3 second charge time. His Tesla need to be pretty numerous to be useful, if you could have up to atleast 12 at once that would probably be best. Other than those things, I did like what was shown of him.

Edited by Pandabarrel
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I...am not happy that Minelayer is still present, even with the cost reduced (thank god) it still seems like a clunky thing to have to cycle through them and set them up, the first and 3rd mine specifically don't seem that useful unless they do something else.

Tesla still being around is questionable, but as long as the numbers are at least buffed (and casting 4 at once doesn't cost the same as using the ability 4 times) I guess the more mobile nature of them could be a good fit.

His 3 and 4 are fine though, Vauban needed a damage ability and both Vortex and Bastille taking up separate slots was rather redundant in terms of his kit's design.

As for Ember, I hope they cap that ability power increase because having an endless scaling power increase seems like a bad idea and just more power creep.

Having a damage reduction ability on her 2 is neat, they are still in the testing range but it works well as an option for solving the squishy issue.

Also I feel the need to say this: Ember has reached level 31! Ember learned Meteor!

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5 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

Losing Accelerant seems like a big nerf to Ember's survivability, this would most likely put her below Banshee in terms of squishiness without some form of CC like Accelerant's stun. Her new passive requiring enemies to be within 10m is a suicide mission unless it scales with range. Honestly I would combine Accelerant and Fireblast, keeping the stun from Accelerant and the AoE/Heat Dump from Fireblast (Immolation fulfills the increased heat damage from Accelerant already). I suppose this is nothing that Adaptability couldn't patch up but I think its worth looking at. Another solution would be giving Ember DR as her Immolation meter fills, this has been a very common suggestion in past Ember discussions, and its a good idea imo.

Vauban looks a bit more like Nidus in that he seems to rely on pulling enemies in and killing them, however his cast times are far too slow, Natural Talent would be a must have if it shipped like this. The orbital strike is cool and all but a grenade that just explodes on contact would be far better than something with a 3 second charge time. His Tesla need to be pretty numerous to be useful, if you could have up to atleast 12 at once that would probably be best. Other than those things, I did like what was shown of him.

I'm not sold all parts of her re-work but, hasn't accelerant been replaced with damage reduction as well as buffs?
I'm more concerned that most of her abilities now seem to do damage overtime, rather than killing, so that currently uncapped power strength may be very necessary.

A good point with Vauban, though hopefully the real/final animation times will be much better.

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5 minutes ago, Aldain said:

As for Ember, I hope they cap that ability power increase because having an endless scaling power increase seems like a bad idea and just more power creep.

+5% Ability Strength /enemy being burned by a Heat proc within 10 meters from Ember. 10 meters is not very big, and unless it scales with range it won't do much. And lets be real, If you have enough enemies nearby for that passive to start making a real effect, you're probably about to go down.

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20 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I...am not happy that Minelayer is still present, even with the cost reduced (thank god) it still seems like a clunky thing to have to cycle through them and set them up, the first and 3rd mine specifically don't seem that useful unless they do something else.

Tesla still being around is questionable, but as long as the numbers are at least buffed (and casting 4 at once doesn't cost the same as using the ability 4 times) I guess the more mobile nature of them could be a good fit.

His 3 and 4 are fine though, Vauban needed a damage ability and both Vortex and Bastille taking up separate slots was rather redundant in terms of his kit's design.

As for Ember, I hope they cap that ability power increase because having an endless scaling power increase seems like a bad idea and just more power creep.

Having a damage reduction ability on her 2 is neat, they are still in the testing range but it works well as an option for solving the squishy issue.

Also I feel the need to say this: Ember has reached level 31! Ember learned Meteor!

Honestly, as for the power strength, because she only has 2 direct damage abilities and needs to stand in a burning, but still living, crowd to get the buff, I'm not too concerned about it; it seems really niche that you'll ever have anything to use that strength on and once you do, it's up in smoke, in fact it currently seems less useful, if more usable, than her current passive and less effective than other cc-sweep abilities.

That's the main problem I see with this proposal, getting the most out of her abilities requires you to not kill enemies, which never goes over well; Wildfire sounds really cool, but unless your 2 hours into survival, you're probably hoping that dropping a meteor on only the enemies you can see, actually kills at least those; hopefully the mentioned splash is good.

Edited by TheArcSet
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8 minutes ago, TheArcSet said:

I'm not sold all parts of her re-work but, hasn't accelerant been replaced with damage reduction as well as buffs?
I'm more concerned that most of her abilities now seem to do damage overtime, rather than killing, so that currently uncapped power strength may be very necessary.

A good point with Vauban, though hopefully the real/final animation times will be much better.

I missed that and edited my first comment when I saw it, woopsie.

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1 minute ago, TheArcSet said:

That's the main problem I see with this proposal, getting the most out of her abilities requires you to not kill enemies, which never goes over well; Wildfire sounds really cool, but unless your 2 hours into survival, you're probably hoping that dropping a meteor on only the enemies you can see, actually kills at least those.

That's a problem that I didn't think about initially either, maybe the intent players will build for negative strength and rely on the passive to ramp it up even higher, though as I say it that seems a bit like a dumb idea.

3 minutes ago, Pandabarrel said:

+5% Ability Strength /enemy being burned by a Heat proc within 10 meters from Ember. 10 meters is not very big, and unless it scales with range it won't do much. And lets be real, If you have enough enemies nearby for that passive to start making a real effect, you're probably about to go down.

10 meters might be why it is currently uncapped scaling, I'd say if they introduced a cap they could increase the range safely, but overall I'm still shaky on this passive, the idea is good on paper but the execution feels very "work in progress" at the moment.

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Embers passive is a fine passive, it's bonus power strength to a frame that you're already going to be building power strength on. 5% is acceptable as in most cases you're going to be facing more than 1 enemy.

As far as passive goes, it's a buff from her current that's more applicable. At best it's a bonus, not a core part of her kit.

 

Edited by Buzkyl
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Just now, Aldain said:

10 meters might be why it is currently uncapped scaling, I'd say if they introduced a cap they could increase the range safely, but overall I'm still shaky on this passive, the idea is good on paper but the execution feels very "work in progress" at the moment.

Yeah agreed, both reworks seem very WIP atm. I do see a lot of potential in Ember though, I'm looking forward to it.

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Just now, Pandabarrel said:

Yeah agreed, both reworks seem very WIP atm. I do see a lot of potential in Ember though, I'm looking forward to it.

I actually like the AOE armor strip on her 3 at the moment, it also looks like it feels better to use.

At least it is a decent start.

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I feel the vauban update is leagues ahead of the ember update. For ember I think the biggest change is moving her passive and 2 passive. Make her passive the fire bar that builds up, and make her 2 have a passive that while active you gain bonus strength for enemies in a certain radius. This means she can always have the firebar active without using energy, while also being able to mod the range of the “enemies in range give strength” passive. 

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There seems to be a good number of abilities that deal damage, but do not scale based off of weapon mods.  Historically these skills have usually been underwhelming, and I don't see these being much of an exception.  I expect a lot of players will be disappointed if their huge laser beams can't even kill the light mobs in high level missions.

Edited by Zekkii
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