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MiMiren

Please stop adding armor strip to every warframe and just redo the armor scaling

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I just learned about the ember rework. It's fine and all but by now its quite clear that armor, as is, makes a lot of warframe abilities and weapons ineffective.

This has been going for years. The sooner you adjust it, the easier it will be for you to design everything else in this game in the future.

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no, it's a design of the game and it's very pertinent up to where the rewards are.

if you wanna go fight lv 400 for absolutely no rewards, that's your prerogative.

you sound like someone who is just repeating the gibberish of others.

Every dps warframe has a way to deal with armor and that's how it should be. 

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16 minutes ago, MiMiren said:

I just learned about the ember rework. It's fine and all but by now its quite clear that armor, as is, makes a lot of warframe abilities and weapons ineffective.

This has been going for years. The sooner you adjust it, the easier it will be for you to design everything else in this game in the future.

Honestly, armor can be negated by more than just abilities, if you plan ahead.

Ferrite Armor: Corrosive damage, Corrosive Projection, Puncture damage, Toxin damage, Shattering Impact.

Alloy Armor: Corrosive damage, Corrosive Projection, Radiation damage, Puncture damage, Cold damage, Shattering Impact.

In both cases, the listed sources either strip armor or deal additional damage to that armor type.
Further, Slash procs completely ignore armor.

Adding armor stripping to Warframes that specialize in crowd control is, in my opinion, a Good Idea, since that frees up mod space on my weapons for additional damage or utility mods.

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I was thinking this every time it was mentioned. they could do both... but with most frames not having armor strip... well... meh?

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Pretty sure their eventual damage overhaul, whenever it happens, will include some changes to how armor works, just like the last one did years ago. Doesn't mean they can't throw in other ways to deal with it in the meantime--especially for frames who, like Ember, are both lacking in useful utility and also suffer a lot because of high-level armor scaling.

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eventual damage overhaul

I think damage 3.0 was canned but I do think I remember Steve tweeting earlier in the year about trying some stuff with damage/armor and Railjack.

 

I don't really understand how armor scaling isn't crazy - I don't know the exact math but there is a noticeable difference when you get to higher levels, and it is not just lots of health. At level 100 the "heavy" infested unit has 59,000 EHP. The "heavy" corpus unit has 90,000. The "heavy" Grineer unit has 976,000. There are ways to deal with armor but it feels like slash/corrosive are really the go to elements in particular because they help deal with armor. 

Adding all these armor reducing methods and powers is great but I'd rather address armor itself (and on a side note powers just scaling terribly regardless). Maybe cap the damage reduction at a certain level. Or make it so if an enemy has 60% DR because of armor, keep that the same DR no matter the level? Or something so armor reducing is still helpful in TTK but doesn't feel so necessary. Just close some of the massive gap between stuff that has armor reducing methods/weapons and those that don't.

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I find it a bit problematic that both reworks (with a DPS-ish and a CC / support) have armour stripping as one major(-ish) selling point. I mean, there are a lot of ways to deal with armour—and that's pretty much where I see the problem. We have all these manners of dealing with armour it's almost unfathomable, yet it's still important that these new abilities strip armour...?

It's kind of why, in the past, I've suggested a separate (and non-faction-specific) damage reduction value that things like Puncture and these abilities could affect instead. Something (generally) non-scaling where it can go into the negatives and become damage amplification, and armour can be its own health class instead.

I mean, clearly, in the interim of a fix (if any exists), frames like Ember and Vauban do need armour stripping of some kind. But at the same token, how are we still adding new ways to strip armour with a lot of nods all around?

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43 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

We have all these manners of dealing with armour it's almost unfathomable, yet it's still important that these new abilities strip armour...?

Rhetoric question or do you really don't know? 

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5 minutes ago, MiMiren said:

Rhetoric question or do you really don't know? 

Rhetoric. It probably shouldn't even have a question mark for how I phrased it, tbh...

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I have to say that Augments like Seeking Shuriken and Corroding Barrage start to look a little lame, when so many 'frames are getting armour-stripping as an innate property of their abilities.

Also, in the Devstream we saw Bastille removed all the armour... which is kinda bad. 'Cos unless you're planning to Bastlle every enemy you fight, Status weapons with Corrosive would be the order of the day in missions with Armour. Removing the Armour loses the 75% damage bonus Corrosive gets against Ferrite Armour... the extra 25% from Vauban's passive doesn't really make up for that! Hopefully that'll get tweaked.

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1 hour ago, ldegroodt115 said:

and on a side note powers just scaling terribly regardless

This is a financial decision, not a mechanical one.

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"How do we make a frame not suck?"
"Give it armor-strip and call it a day."

But on a serious note, I do agree. I'd much rather have the system adjusted to something more functional, than be given more shortcuts to deal with the crazy system we have now.

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I kinda agree, but i also realized that changing armor scaling inherently it would make weapons more powerful too. 

It is better to give every frame a method of scaling that makes killing tougher enemies reliant on effort from the frame rather than just spamming Ignis and Arca Plasmor.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I kinda agree, but i also realized that changing armor scaling inherently it would make weapons more powerful too. 

It is better to give every frame a method of scaling that makes killing tougher enemies reliant on effort from the frame rather than just spamming Ignis and Arca Plasmor.

Shield and Health can be proportionately increased if necessary.

Every time they add another armor-stripping ability is another DElay on changing what is obviously wrong by now.

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16 minutes ago, MiMiren said:

Shield and Health can be proportionately increased if necessary.

Every time they add another armor-stripping ability is another DElay on changing what is obviously wrong by now.

I wouldn't mind this, but there's also been feedback against bullet sponges for years too. So simply adding more flat health to have to burn through is generally hated by players.

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7 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I kinda agree, but i also realized that changing armor scaling inherently it would make weapons more powerful too. 

It is better to give every frame a method of scaling that makes killing tougher enemies reliant on effort from the frame rather than just spamming Ignis and Arca Plasmor.

This method is in the game since years, it is called status weapon. However people do not utilize it today, same as they did not in 2014, because they if a weapon does less damage it will scale worse. Ember in particular is actually one of the most insteresting to play frames with this weapons, given that accelerant does work on most of this this kind of weapons better then a damage buff to all damage types(Chroma, Nova, etc.).

People do believe that if on frame like Ember, when her 4 stops to kill at L30(actually it does deal with cannon fodder up to L100 with the help of accelerant reasonable well) that she is bad vs armor. However if you grab a simple status weapon like the Mara Detron or Staticor, build it corrosive\heat and press 2 this armored targets will die at L100 just as quick as they do at L150, because the weapon will remove the armor and heat is bonused vs her normal HP(what actually scales far less agressive then on Infested).

Basically we got like 3-4 times the damage on weapons and scaling ability damage now, compared 2014 because the community uses mostly the wrong tools and insists that this tools should be effective.

Armor scaling however is indeed poorly designed. This is because puncture, radiation or corrosive, what not only deal bonus damage but also ignore a percentage of the armor on the target that is as high as her bonus damage do not provide scaling. Mostly because a target with 4000 armor will still have 1000 armor after a 75% reduction what is still massive and the reason why people assume her damage does "fall off". A much better design would be for example if the 75% or 50% is removed from the actual resistance that armor gives, what would provide fairer results, but then again DE has not only to rework armor scaling, but also weapon damage and enemy HP.

 

 

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On 2019-10-05 at 12:12 AM, (PS4)cdzbrbr said:

no, it's a design of the game and it's very pertinent up to where the rewards are.

if you wanna go fight lv 400 for absolutely no rewards, that's your prerogative.

you sound like someone who is just repeating the gibberish of others.

Every dps warframe has a way to deal with armor and that's how it should be. 

That was rude. 

 

The original poster makes a good point though. Armor scaling creates a situation where Grineer or other armored units scale in hit points faster than any other health type in the game. It IS a problem, and I would argue it is a bit of a flaw in the design of the game.

 

However, it's too late to change it (in my opinion). If they were to change it now, think of how many other things would need to change. This is just part of the game now and it's find because they have given us many tools to solve the problem for ourselves. 

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Il y a 4 heures, Flying_Scorpion a dit :

The original poster makes a good point though. Armor scaling creates a situation where Grineer or other armored units scale in hit points faster than any other health type in the game. It IS a problem, and I would argue it is a bit of a flaw in the design of the game.

Arbitration drones are pretty much killing everything upon death except from Grineers, who basically don't care about anything without a few dozen corrosive procs first.

OP is right, armor scaling is broken, damages need a rework (as opposed to what i read above - gearing everything corrosive or slash isn't the answer, it's basically what's wrong in current balance) and infested/Corpus need better survivability mechanics.

There's a reason why players are using weapons that can bypass enemies armor, it's just a waste of time when you need 20-30 corrosive procs to begin to deal damage. So we're stuck with only a few viable builds that also make a lot of weapons not worth - slow firing status weapons for example.

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En 5/10/2019 a las 1:12, (PS4)cdzbrbr dijo:

Every dps warframe has a way to deal with armor and that's how it should be. 

So Nyx is DPS now, ok...

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