More weapon mods should counts as exilus mods

[Rekkou]

After looking at the exilus weapons mods, i'll have to say the choices are smaller than i expected. I hope DE doesn't goes by the rule of "anything that can increase DPS, will not count as exilus mods" Because pretty much anything that can be put on a weapon will increase its dps in some way.

For example, putting tactical pump on Exergis or Tigris would increase their dps greatly because these weapons reloads all the time. So why mods like fatal acceleration does not count as exilus? projectile speed mods increase your effective range and made it easier to hit your target, but doesn't really buff your damage, so these mods should also count as exilus mods.

I say anything that doesn't directly increase your damage should count as exilus mods, including some syndicate mods even if they give you the AOE blast.

[SneakyErvin]

It is tricky with projectile speed because on weapons with max range and falloff it straight up increases the dps. You get a longer range before falloff starts to take effect etc. Reload speed works pretty much the same on all weapons, so it wont impact dps differently between weapon types or even different weapons within the same weapon type.

[Rekkou]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is tricky with projectile speed because on weapons with max range and falloff it straight up increases the dps. You get a longer range before falloff starts to take effect etc. Reload speed works pretty much the same on all weapons, so it wont impact dps differently between weapon types or even different weapons within the same weapon type.

Magazine size and reload speed will always affect your dps, The more bullets you can fire before reloading and the less time you reload means you have more time to shoot and thus more damage. The damage increase from effective range and projectile speed is situational at best while dps increase from faster reload time and  having more bullets to fire occurs all the time.

[Lone_Dude]

16 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Magazine size and reload speed will always affect your dps, The more bullets you can fire before reloading and the less time you reload means you have more time to shoot and thus more damage. The damage increase from effective range and projectile speed is situational at best while dps increase from faster reload time and  having more bullets to fire occurs all the time.

Being able to hit more targets from a longer distance is not "situational at best" lmao

[Rekkou]

7 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

Being able to hit more targets from a longer distance is not "situational at best" lmao

Being in longer distance is already situational

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Rekkou said:

Magazine size and reload speed will always affect your dps, The more bullets you can fire before reloading and the less time you reload means you have more time to shoot and thus more damage. The damage increase from effective range and projectile speed is situational at best while dps increase from faster reload time and  having more bullets to fire occurs all the time.

Aye, but it is equal for all weapons. With projectile speed it varies alot between classes and seperate weapons within classes. Magazine size and reload speed is always proportional to the weapon in question and how it is initially balanced. A projectile speed mod may impact one or more things on a weapon that makes use of it.

For a bow it wouldnt make much difference, it would simply be a QoL change and highly dependant on personal gameplay and how you prefer to lead/aim your arrows, same with something like the Boltor. But when you suddenly slap it on a shotgun or other weapon with falloff damage the dps increase is huge in the end. So it is simply not a balanced mod to fit in a exilus slot because the impact is so different between weapons.

[Rekkou]

18 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Aye, but it is equal for all weapons. With projectile speed it varies alot between classes and seperate weapons within classes. Magazine size and reload speed is always proportional to the weapon in question and how it is initially balanced. A projectile speed mod may impact one or more things on a weapon that makes use of it.

For a bow it wouldnt make much difference, it would simply be a QoL change and highly dependant on personal gameplay and how you prefer to lead/aim your arrows, same with something like the Boltor. But when you suddenly slap it on a shotgun or other weapon with falloff damage the dps increase is huge in the end. So it is simply not a balanced mod to fit in a exilus slot because the impact is so different between weapons.

For some reason people here is trying to make it as if projectile speed mod is giving significant buff and therefore shouldn't be an exilus mods. If any reload speed mods is the one that works differently because some weapons like bows reloads with every shot that reload speed mods is effectively increasing its fire rate. Other weapons have reload speed that is so long that reload speed mod can cut the reload speed by 1 second and give you 1 full dps. Some weapons like Vulkar and Rubico have magazine size so little that any extra shots will increase its dps

With fatal acceleration. Weapon like Tigris only increase in range from 10m to 14m. With maximum distance only increase like 8m. Nothing in this game exist that can make projectile speed mod that powerful. And if they are that powerful then why nobody is using it? Rivens with projectile speed mod should be in demand with high price if anything you said is true.

[peterc3]

4 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Because pretty much anything that can be put on a weapon will increase its dps in some way.

Welcome to the reason the idea was terrible since the first time someone suggested it on this here forum. There's no reasonable way to allow any kind of DPS affecting mods to the slot without it just acting as yet another slot.

[Lone_Dude]

6 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Being in longer distance is already situational

Uses a weapon that has specific range limitations @ range is situational. Sweet.

If a weapon CONSTANTLY has to be used with considerations towards it's range stat it's not "situational". It's a factor at all times. Adding a range mod on top directly incrceases it's combat efficiency. If we take Zarr as an example, it's pellets will fly farther, thus reaching more enemies at longer range. It's like saying that punch through doesn't increase DPS "because it's situational" in a musou-like game where you fight crowds of enemies.

Not like I would mind range mods fitting in the exilus slot, because certain weapons really need said range.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Lone_Dude
I cant into english

[Mephane]

9 hours ago, Rekkou said:

After looking at the exilus weapons mods

Is there an official list? All I know as examples so far are silencing mods and ammo mutations, the wiki has nothing yet, the official dev stream post has nothing, this subforum doesn't have a thread listing them either.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Rekkou said:

For some reason people here is trying to make it as if projectile speed mod is giving significant buff and therefore shouldn't be an exilus mods. If any reload speed mods is the one that works differently because some weapons like bows reloads with every shot that reload speed mods is effectively increasing its fire rate. Other weapons have reload speed that is so long that reload speed mod can cut the reload speed by 1 second and give you 1 full dps. Some weapons like Vulkar and Rubico have magazine size so little that any extra shots will increase its dps

With fatal acceleration. Weapon like Tigris only increase in range from 10m to 14m. With maximum distance only increase like 8m. Nothing in this game exist that can make projectile speed mod that powerful. And if they are that powerful then why nobody is using it? Rivens with projectile speed mod should be in demand with high price if anything you said is true.

You are missing my point.

Reload Speed or Magazine Size = linear increase that is the exact same for all weapons since it effects one specific thing.

Projectile Speed = Non linear scaling since it acts differently on several weapons and classes in the game. So on some it is just far more powerful than anything else for the slot, which means that some weapons/classes will get 3 times as much out of it as another.

And no, they would not be in demand on Rivens because there are far more better stats to pick from in the pool, just as you rarely use it on a normal mod slot over primary stats. My point is that as an exilus mod it is far too powerful on several weapons because the dps increase is far more significant than that of reload speed or mag size. It is a stats that simply isnt balanced across the board, so would yield a far higher benefit that what is fitting for a exilus slot.

edit: And if we start demanding projectile speed we need to start demanding +range mods aswell for other weapons. A mod that is mandatory for some very powerful weapons since it significantly increases their dps. That would mean they'd remove all trade offs for said weapons since they could always max their range. And when that happens we need to start demanding reach mods for melee when those weapons get their exilus aswell. It will turn into a bad cycle of power creep on power creep in a game with already too much of it and no actual need for it.

Edited October 6, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Renegade343]

Eh, I would only consider silencer mods and the PVE/Conclave mods for weapon exilus. Those are pretty harmless enough, given that they confer really small benefits.

[Rekkou]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

-snip-

That's because your point is wrong. Your point was made under the idea that adding some range will just make some weapons becomes so powerful. But in practicality, it's just not. At this point you're just exaggerating and making stuff up to help your point.

 

7 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

Uses a weapon that has specific range limitations @ range is situational. Sweet.

If a weapon CONSTANTLY has to be used with considerations towards it's range stat it's not "situational". It's a factor at all times. Adding a range mod on top directly incrceases it's combat efficiency. If we take Zarr as an example, it's pellets will fly farther, thus reaching more enemies at longer range. It's like saying that punch through doesn't increase DPS "because it's situational" in a musou-like game where you fight crowds of enemies.

Not like I would mind range mods fitting in the exilus slot, because certain weapons really need said range.

Yes, that is exactly what situational means. You're thinking a situation where just because you add some range then any shotgun won't have any fall-off and can be used on any distance, it's just not. For most shotgun the increase is just 4-8m, for Zarr it's just 6m increase from 10m. That hardly made it long range viable.

Seriously people do you even know how much gain you get from a projectile speed mod? it's just 40%-60% At the very best they're gonna be small help, which is why they should be an  exilus mod. They're not gonna turn any shotgun into sniper or any projectile speed weapon into hitscan. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Rekkou

[Rekkou]

5 hours ago, Mephane said:

Is there an official list? All I know as examples so far are silencing mods and ammo mutations, the wiki has nothing yet, the official dev stream post has nothing, this subforum doesn't have a thread listing them either.

You can see it on devstream. Primary (Shotgun) now has exilus tab, with Reloads speed, magazine size, silencer mod, ammo mutation, and some mods with mobility aspect in it.

[SneakyErvin]

8 hours ago, Rekkou said:

That's because your point is wrong. Your point was made under the idea that adding some range will just make some weapons becomes so powerful. But in practicality, it's just not. At this point you're just exaggerating and making stuff up to help your point.

No it isnt wrong because it is in comparison to the other mods. Projectile Speed simply has too many variables depending on the weapon. If it was just about reaching point A to B faster it would be nothing but a QoL thing, much like how it is with bows. And since this would be a thing to increase the dps further on already OP weapons it is something that is hardly needed.

Imagine Catchmoon with a free slot to increase min and max range with 40% along with an already quite long range and low falloff. Or as I said, if this becomes a thing we'd have to add +range mods aswell to exilus for other weapons. Then suddenly you have Amprex with no drawback any longer for maximizing range, which is a massive straight up DPS booster for that gun. They need to be very careful with what they do since the power creep is already out of hand.

[Rekkou]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

-

Don't need to imagine it, i've already played with it and the increase is far from significant to make it OP.  Amprex doesn't even take projectile speed mod. Again, you're just exaggerating something small and make it looks like a bad thing.

Everything i need to said have been said. There is no point continuing this because you'll just said the same thing with different words.

[z3us32610]

On 2019-10-05 at 4:41 AM, Rekkou said:

After looking at the exilus weapons mods, i'll have to say the choices are smaller than i expected. I hope DE doesn't goes by the rule of "anything that can increase DPS, will not count as exilus mods" Because pretty much anything that can be put on a weapon will increase its dps in some way.

For example, putting tactical pump on Exergis or Tigris would increase their dps greatly because these weapons reloads all the time. So why mods like fatal acceleration does not count as exilus? projectile speed mods increase your effective range and made it easier to hit your target, but doesn't really buff your damage, so these mods should also count as exilus mods.

I say anything that doesn't directly increase your damage should count as exilus mods, including some syndicate mods even if they give you the AOE blast.

Im curious, are you saying that you took a look at so-called "quality of life"mods for weapons and you found there was less than you expected? Because your first sentence intimates you know which ones are exilus and which ones aren't.

[Rekkou]

Just now, z3us32610 said:

Im curious, are you saying that you took a look at so-called "quality of life"mods for weapons and you found there was less than you expected? Because your first sentence intimates you know which ones are exilus and which ones aren't.

You can look it on the devstream 131. They show the available exilus mods for shotguns. 

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Don't need to imagine it, i've already played with it and the increase is far from significant to make it OP.  Amprex doesn't even take projectile speed mod. Again, you're just exaggerating something small and make it looks like a bad thing.

Everything i need to said have been said. There is no point continuing this because you'll just said the same thing with different words.

Please read before answering. I said if projectile speed mods are added we need to add range mods aswell, hence my Amprex comment. Range on Amprex is a massive boost to dps but it is in the end still just range as you put it.

And 40% increase is significant because you gain near 50% more range before falloff sets in, which is at 28m with projectile speed on catchmoon, a weapon that is already OP. It is also not about exaggeration, it is about what fits in a exilus spot without adding too much to the weapon. Exaggerating would be saying it equals a regular mod slot, which just isnt the case here, it is simply a comparison between exilus worthy mods. And projectile speed simply doesnt fit due to the very diverse nature of the stat depending on the weapon.

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Sorry about that, but the point doesn't change much. You say that adding range shouldn't be added because a lot of weapons has weakness that is limited range. And adding range just make them flawless. But a lot more weapons has weakness that are few magazine size and slow reload speed. Adding these mods to exilus mods would also remove their flaw. So it's hypocritical to allow magazine size and reload speed mod, but banning projectile speed and range mod from being exilus because it'll make some weapon have no drawbacks? And increasing range from 20 to 28m is far from significant, 28m in warframe is still short. You'll be changing a short range weapon to a short-ish range weapon. It's not even enough to qualify as medium range weapon.

And this is exactly your point, the problem you have with projectile speed and range mods also exists with magazine size and reload speed mod. Some is irrelevant but some other would provide huge benefit. But somehow you just refuse to acknowledge it and only see it as problem on projectile speed mods. If you're not okay with projectile speed and range mod being added then you shouldn't be okay with magazine size and reload speed mods and vice versa.

[z3us32610]

2 hours ago, Rekkou said:

You can look it on the devstream 131. They show the available exilus mods for shotguns. 

Ahh, I didn't see the part where they showed the mods. I'll have to rewatch it. Thanks

[Lone_Dude]

12 hours ago, Rekkou said:

"Blah-blah I don't want to listen because I'm right and having to constantly consider the range because that's literally how weapon operates is still situational"

Try tiny bit harder and your brain will leak out from all the pressure you exert. Anyway, "small help" or not, it still proves my point. 40-60% increase is not some tiny difference. It's 40-60% - more than a half lol. It's not 15% unlike exilus mods for warframes, it's 3 or 4 times higher. Stop trying to make up an excuse for it and just admit that you want that sweet range increase no matter what it takes, because I'm sure that I do lmao. I think devs will most likely add it later anyway, since they consider reload speed a non-factor when it comes to DPS. So yeah, not like any of it matters, still, you seem like a person who will slam their head into a wall as long as it has "no u" written on it, so I suppose you do you. At least I read some interesting stuff from that Ervin guy, so thanks.

[Rekkou]

1 minute ago, Lone_Dude said:

Try tiny bit harder and your brain will leak out from all the pressure you exert. Anyway, "small help" or not, it still proves my point. 40-60% increase is not some tiny difference. It's 40-60% - more than a half lol. It's not 15% unlike exilus mods for warframes, it's 3 or 4 times higher. Stop trying to make up an excuse for it and just admit that you want that sweet range increase no matter what it takes, because I'm sure that I do lmao. I think devs will most likely add it later anyway, since they consider reload speed a non-factor when it comes to DPS. So yeah, not like any of it matters, still, you seem like a person who will slam their head into a wall as long as it has "no u" written on it, so I suppose you do you. At least I read some interesting stuff from that Ervin guy, so thanks.

I never hide the fact that i want to use projectile speed mods, they will be nice QoL to some weapons. And did you just literally think because a number is bigger then the result would be significant? It's 60% of range, while 15% from power drift can directly contribute to damage and scaling and was meant to stack with other warframe mods. 

And seriously? you're throwing insults and lying as if i'm the one acting childish and expect no one here notice you're the one doing exactly that? Just look at your text, if you really think that is what civil people would wrote, then that explains a lot about you.