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844448

Can someone tell me why you dislike archwing?

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With Empyrean in progress, no doubt archwing will have a considerable part in the gameplay.

But apparently, archwing is considered bad, worse on Uranus submersible so can someone tell me why? I find archwing to be very fun and out of the mainstream gameplay, even the control is smooth enough for me with back roll for fast stop (move backwards + tap shift)

Also, I made a concept that combines atmospheric archgun, submersible archwing, canister throwing, railjack, squad link and armor stripping from ambulas for the third orb to add more spice into the fight because apparently all the fight in warframe is considered boring

(don't kill me pls)

Any objections or reasons why we shouldn't have more archwing in the future?

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Because it's plow-into-obstacles-mode for many maps. It's not always bad, but some maps can be annoying! Especially for newer players!

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30 minutes ago, 844448 said:

out of the mainstream gameplay

This. Is why. It was some of the first island content that didn't help at all with the rest of the game. Parkour and fun movement? No, float around hallways or out in dead open areas. It was Warframe without all the things people expect out of Warframe.

A new mod farm starting from zero again and it only works for that mode.

Enemies zoom up to your face then simply orbit tell you notice them. All of them.

6 directional movement was a half baked change, no modifications to maps or AI to make use of it.

Momentum changes from tight hair pin twitch based movement to Tokyo drifting through over complicated level geometry on corpus tiles that like to catch your foot on every turn. Also never quite knowing if the next 90° turn was going to be a left or right because typical map UI pathfinding is rubbish in the corpus trench.

Tiny tiny drops and a small vacuum bubble unless you used the wings that could bring everything to you.

Nothing engaging to do in that 3 dimensional space past keeping things away from you. The war within quests toyed with it for the first kuva base mission and I liked the idea of it. Never went anywhere else with it since since hiding behind a object to avoid scanners was a pretty big brain moment for too many people.

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Trying to dodge the obstacles, then parking yourself (thanks for the hint about instant stop btw it doesn't work), then just holding your Fire button for 1-2 minutes is not fun, IMO. No real action...

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From what I've gathered it's from the drastic difference to the games primary content and that it takes more effort to get used to the controls than Conclave.

The mode is fun if one takes the time to learn the controls proper but it's also just that: fun. There aren't any other real reasons to do the content outside of Archwing mastery.

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Personnaly, when I got introduced to it, it was a all different branch of mods I'd have to collect and upgrade, huge time investment when I barely had every 90 elemental mods, half of them maxed. And let's not talk about serration which, from a noob's point of view, was a huge task to take on.

So dumping thousands of endo for a handfull of nodes devoid of any cool rewards (beside a few AW mandatory mods), was not gonna happen. And every time I was forced into AW, I'd be reminded of that endo and credit sink I did not take care of.

But as time went by, and maxing AW mods became more and more trivial (compared to the many prime with their last rank missing, staring at me whenever I go into mods), I was able to properly enjoy AW, and empyrean giving much more of a reason to have AW gear ready, can't wait.

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I really dislike the way momentum is handled for archwing, and by extension, Titania. If I fly past something and turn to face it, I expect to continue coasting in my original direction (now backwards), not immediately whip my movement vector around to match my view and crash into the thing I'm facing.

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Just really really bad controls and flow in movement. Also a bunch of awkward animations and bugs that blocks the sight, shoots in wrong directions, drifting steering, bad key combinations, etc. 

I don't mind the concept, but the state it was left in is a joke. I really hope they make something proper of it with Empyrean. 

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Its more that I forget it exists.

Archwing was the first "island" they introduced. Maybe that will change with Empyrean.

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My list is:

1. Bugged compared to general gameplay, my second archwing mission i got 3 mission failed without failing any objectives, just followed the freaking marker BAM failed. Uranus archwing parts is especially slow and clunky, two times i was stuck underwater without a way to ascend.

2. Supposedly in open space you should have a bit more freedom of movement, but a lot of archwing missions is TINY corridors even when visually there is no walls. Add to this huge speed and weird momentum and archwing gameplay is anything but fluid.

3. Archwing is mechanically inferior to general gameplay, why the hell would i play one weapon and weird auto aim melee with aforementioned movement problems while i can get far supperior version of movement, weapon handling, warframe and operator abilities in main game?

4. Mods hunting is weird, most usefull archwing mods is tied to missions or mission types, you can't just play a dozen or two of random archwing missions and gather most of the basic mods. When i went into modding for profit taker i had like 2 or 3 mods from my desired heavy weapon loadout, and i just bought everything, because besides occasional mastery points farm i can't be bothered with repeating archwing missions over and over again.

5. No meaningful rewards, WF is looter shooter and if shooter part of archwing fails and absolute majority of rewards is bad, then there is no reason to return.

In the end the only time i don't cringe from archwing is when i use it for mobility in Orb Vallis / Plains of Eidolon.

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It has rendered all forms of movement obsolete on Open world maps and that I still have PTSD from buggy archwings missions.

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2 hours ago, 844448 said:

Also, I made a concept that combines atmospheric archgun, submersible archwing, canister throwing, railjack, squad link and armor stripping from ambulas for the third orb to add more spice into the fight because apparently all the fight in warframe is considered boring

Before I state my stance on Archwing, let me just say one thing. That is WAY too many mechanics for one fight, like the opposite extreme of the Wolf of Saturn Six's mechanicless slugfest fight.

Mechanics need to be meaningful in their design, similar to how the Ropalolyst (or however you spell it) has some basic mechanics that make the fight unique without being excessively complex. Trying to tie together too many things is a bad idea because it becomes complex for the sake of complexity, not for fun factor. It is a tough balance of complexity and simplicity that needs to be attained for a fight to be interesting, though every fight will eventually get boring as players learn it, that is just simply how learning is after all.

On-topic: I actually love Archwings conceptually, but in their current state they suffer from "missed potential" syndrome, as well as have a few issues that just feel clunky.

Firstly, the slippery controls in space just feel utterly irritating in trench run maps, in open space it isn't so bad, but small corridors aren't designed for the speeds and slippery controls and I just hate having to slam on the breaks just to slip through one small corridor. Also getting turned upside down with no way to right myself easily is another issue I have, it is disorienting, especially in the same Trench Run maps.

I also personally hate how almost all Archweapons are behind syndicates for whatever absurd reason DE has for that being a thing. There is also the problem of some basic mods being painfully rare, I still don't have a basic electricity Archgun mod for example.

The problem stems from not having enough content for Archwing and not having enough adjustment put into Archwings themselves to make the content more accessible and intuitive.

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I like Archwing but i don't like the " underwater " levels as they are so slow and confined as heck for the most part, same for some space levels where you can bounce off all the walls like a pinball. Also our archwing takes too much time to brake.

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Controls.

In space you just go all over the place like a drugged fly. In closed areas you're slamming into walls because of how slow the controls are.

In water you can control yourself much better but now you're slower than a snail. And of course some enemies stun you just to be annoying.

At least the dumbass experimental or whatever mod can be turned on and off. Makes it easier to control and navigate.

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In my opinion.
I've always liked archwing... in concept...
But
It controls TERRIBLY, like the WORST...

As an example:

  • Hold sprint and do a U-Turn
    • The archwing will instead fly sideways...
  • Hold to fly backward and then hold sprint
    • The archwing will instead fly FULL SPEED FORWARD...
  • Speed NONSENSE
    • 0 to Full Speed = 0.5 seconds
    • Full Speed to 0 = 10 seconds
  • Fly Full Speed Forward, then press Menu
    • The archwing will CHANGE DIRECTION for NO REASON AT ALL
  • Fly Full Speed Forward, then release all buttons and JUST AIM towards a target...
    • The archwing will change direction instantly at full speed, to match the AIM direction.
    • TOTAL BS!!!

An abomination...

When it first appeared it was nice and tight but then every iteration of archwing gets worse...
It was like a Jetpack at first... Now is a inbred mix of a Zeppelin and a Jumbo....
It doesn't steer well
It doesn't keep momentum well
It doesn't accelerate well
It doesn't break/stop well

The only USABLE archwing is Itzal because the 2nd power do a instant full stop.

The developers are trying to make it feel cool but instead they should just FIX IT...

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2 hours ago, 844448 said:

But apparently, archwing is considered bad, worse on Uranus submersible so can someone tell me why?

If you make some effort to get used to controls and to level up the archguns and wings themselves, it is not that bad. However, it seems that DE does not update the mode and it is quite static, which might change with Empyrean, hopefully for the better. IMHO, there are a few specific things that are conceptually not well implemented.

1. Collision, especially in tiny spaces. Enemy AI constantly getting stuck there as well, just sitting, cannot move. Loot can also get stuck.

2. Large maps apparently cannot be rendered normally, probably due to technical issues. Tiny paths in some maps with horrible collision do not help.

3. Weirdly small passive vacuum and affinity radius. Too small, considering the movement speed. So, it is essentially impossible to stay in the affinity range causing slow leveling and not encouraging cooperation.

4. Projectile weapons and powers, which makes it essentially impossible to aim and hit anything at a distance with any precision. Seriously, a rocket of Elytron traveling at 50 meters per second? A blast from Velocitus which flies away slower than an arrow from Rakta Cernos?

5. Very clunky melee hit detection, tiny radius.

6. Disorientation, losing sense of direction, lack of controls to auto-orient or auto-pilot, which is very much needed. Add to this glitchy waypoint markers and bad minimaps for even more confusion.

7. Lack of farmable, difficult and endless missions. Uranus interception is the only endless mode. However, it suffers from tiny affinity radius (impossible to level up efficiently), tiny vacuum radius (impossible to acquire loot, which is drifting away while you are trying to chase it), and weird difficulty spike after the first rotation C.

8. Somewhat inferior enemy design, limited variety, and limited mechanics. Seems like DE has not put any significant effort in this direction, not recently.

Overall, it is serviceable, I personally like it but it has very few missions and very limited options.

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because it needs a massive rework:
1) it should have a collimator at the very least (360° freedom of movement has some drawback, but a collimator is the solution)

2) it should have a more streamlined navigator (the current map/tag is extremely inefficient

don't misunderstand: I like archwings, and would like to see more optional content featuring them, but it's beneficial for the entire community to honestly and clearly point out the current flaws.

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- the levels are not consistent with the controls... it's so bad even ennemies get stuck

- the rewards are not good (no endo / kuva / riven / arcane)

- there is not even easy way to level up (Salacia is the most efficient, but still it's nothing like Hydron or ESO)

- most weapons are not fun to get (forced trades)

- there are no high level endless modes to have fun with

- few archwing, some are good but Elytron is trash

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i dont mind it but its nearly unusable on venus/earth open worlds. everything shoots a bullet at you that knocks you out of it that you cant really see.

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4 hours ago, Firetempest said:

This. Is why. It was some of the first island content that didn't help at all with the rest of the game. Parkour and fun movement? No, float around hallways or out in dead open areas. It was Warframe without all the things people expect out of Warframe.

A new mod farm starting from zero again and it only works for that mode.

Enemies zoom up to your face then simply orbit tell you notice them. All of them.

6 directional movement was a half baked change, no modifications to maps or AI to make use of it.

Momentum changes from tight hair pin twitch based movement to Tokyo drifting through over complicated level geometry on corpus tiles that like to catch your foot on every turn. Also never quite knowing if the next 90° turn was going to be a left or right because typical map UI pathfinding is rubbish in the corpus trench.

Tiny tiny drops and a small vacuum bubble unless you used the wings that could bring everything to you.

Great! Amazing! Wonderful! Let's spend 2+ years and make a bigger system like that and call it Empyrean.

What can go wrong, am I right? :crylaugh:

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6 hours ago, 844448 said:

With Empyrean in progress, no doubt archwing will have a considerable part in the gameplay.

But apparently, archwing is considered bad, worse on Uranus submersible so can someone tell me why? I find archwing to be very fun and out of the mainstream gameplay, even the control is smooth enough for me with back roll for fast stop (move backwards + tap shift)

Also, I made a concept that combines atmospheric archgun, submersible archwing, canister throwing, railjack, squad link and armor stripping from ambulas for the third orb to add more spice into the fight because apparently all the fight in warframe is considered boring

(don't kill me pls)

Any objections or reasons why we shouldn't have more archwing in the future?

it literally makes some players sick (the dedicated archwing levels, its fineish in the open world, honestly they should remove that auto orientate thing that happens that makes it so your flying upside down etc in relation to the background.

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