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(PS4)Hopper_Orouk

Heat procs shouldn't reduce armor

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Talinthis said:

for a while i just assumed that it was only ember's flames that melted the armor, but apparently they are redoing the entire element. wonder how they will make corrosive element relevant. stuff like the ignis and atomos just got a whole lot better.

1. It can only strip a small amount of base armor/sec

2. It can only strip up to a certain amount of base armor

3. It can only strip a small amount of total armor/sec

4. It can only strip up to a certain amount of total armor

5. It can only strip up to a certain % of the total armor

6. Armor lost is returned after a certain amount of time despite the fire proc still being in effect (armor strip cooldown)

 

 

There, 6 ways they could go about it without making corrosive irrelevant.

 

 

1 hour ago, Zeclem said:

while its nice that heat is gonna be useful again, it just being another corrosive is both power creep and unimaginative. the mere fact that it can stack with corrosive is gonna make that combo the new "mandatory" on any gun. 

Pretty much anything they change it to would be either unimaginative or a straight up copy paste from something else, if not, it'll likely be a gimmick or useless. I'm fine it it being this one because at least it would serve a purpose for the time being.

 

1 hour ago, Talinthis said:

for a while i just assumed that it was only ember's flames that melted the armor, but apparently they are redoing the entire element.

My only concern with this change is that it might make the Ember rework irrelevant compared to the changes to heat.

Edited by Madway7
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32 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

Pretty much anything they change it to would be either unimaginative or a straight up copy paste from something else, if not, it'll likely be a gimmick or useless. I'm fine it it being this one because at least it would serve a purpose for the time being.

that is a very defeatist attidute. im sure they would be able to figure out something useful if they just asked for ideas if they dont have anything. 

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1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

it would massively devalue corroisve(that does exactly 0 damage on a proc).

Lol what? 

Corrosive doesn't need to do damage on a proc, just using it as your damage type provides a huge increase in damage versus Ferrite armour enemies. 75% ignore and 75% extra due to the weakness. Same for Radiation against Alloy armour.

Even if fire helps with armour strip, it still doesn't have any numerical benefits against armour. Corrosive absolutely still has a place.

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Posted (edited)

I'm personally just not sure how heat fits in with reducing armor.

1. If the heat was intense enough to actually melt the armor worn, chances are the person inside would boil at that point.

2. Certain metallic alloys and compounds (more likely in a sci-fi setting) cannot be re-melted once they've turned into a solid substance except during very specific processes.

3. If the heat was intense enough to actually melt the armor of someone, it would be intense enough to also harm and kill everything unarmored or with far weaker armor around it in a quite wide area. There is a huge freakin difference walking near a furnace melter and a camp fire.

4. Armored troops in WF probably already have highly heat resistant armors that very likely wouldnt be possible to melt through simple fire and heat atleast. Chances are you'd need plasma cutters or similar equipment to pull it off. At which point we get back to point #1.

Edited by SneakyErvin

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Maybe heat can simply amplify damage on targets affected by the status? It would make heat complement corrosive or viral quite nicely.

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35 minutes ago, nslay said:

Maybe heat can simply amplify damage on targets affected by the status? It would make heat complement corrosive or viral quite nicely.

Yea that's exactly what i said and suggested 

People seem to not understand that for soem reason

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1 minute ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Yea that's exactly what i said and suggested 

People seem to not understand that for soem reason

Ah, I see it now. Sorry.

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Oh i thought this armor reduction is only  ment for embers fire but when it also works for guns that will be REALY NICE. I mean: Lich weapons, gun exilus, fire-buff, vauban /ember rework the upcomming Updates are becomming so damn awesome, im incredible hyped for it. For real, its been a long time since i was so happy about an update, now i can think about new builds and also there is a small chance some of my guild-plessure-trash-weapons becomm strong :). 

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6 minutes ago, Dr.Membrane said:

Oh i thought this armor reduction is only  ment for embers fire but when it also works for guns that will be REALY NICE. I mean: Lich weapons, gun exilus, fire-buff, vauban /ember rework the upcomming Updates are becomming so damn awesome, im incredible hyped for it. For real, its been a long time since i was so happy about an update, now i can think about new builds and also there is a small chance some of my guild-plessure-trash-weapons becomm strong :). 

+1 

I'm a console pleb who impatiently waiting for the gauss reworks

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I mean, I would imagine having Heat reduce Armor makes perfect sense.

Reducing Armor doesn't have an effect on Corrosive really, but it helps buff Fire and its damage over time. If you had it strip Armor it could be more effective, but you'd be restricting the amount of damage Corrosive can deal. It does weaken Radiations damage, but you're never going to be using Heat with Radiation, so it's not a big deal.

Nerfing a base Element when it's literally the worst base Element in general doesn't make much sense.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm personally just not sure how heat fits in with reducing armor.

1. If the heat was intense enough to actually melt the armor worn, chances are the person inside would boil at that point.

2. Certain metallic alloys and compounds (more likely in a sci-fi setting) cannot be re-melted once they've turned into a solid substance except during very specific processes.

3. If the heat was intense enough to actually melt the armor of someone, it would be intense enough to also harm and kill everything unarmored or with far weaker armor around it in a quite wide area. There is a huge freakin difference walking near a furnace melter and a camp fire.

4. Armored troops in WF probably already have highly heat resistant armors that very likely wouldnt be possible to melt through simple fire and heat atleast. Chances are you'd need plasma cutters or similar equipment to pull it off. At which point we get back to point #1.

Gallium is a solid in Warframe's universe while people in heavy body armor take no fall damage and a kid in a leotard dies if he trips off a two-foot cliff.

Trying to apply logic when it's obvious this is a gameplay mechanic added to help out Fire as an element is a little odd. It's not meant to make sense, it's meant to be cool and effective.

Edited by (XB1)Graysmog
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How people say it won't affect usability of corrosive.

Heat will do dmg per sec and remove armor - Corrosive just remove armor, LoL. Only if there will be some big difference on how both work.

Overbuffed status effect and people trying to compare with real stuff, really????

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Lol what? 

Corrosive doesn't need to do damage on a proc, just using it as your damage type provides a huge increase in damage versus Ferrite armour enemies. 75% ignore and 75% extra due to the weakness. Same for Radiation against Alloy armour.

Even if fire helps with armour strip, it still doesn't have any numerical benefits against armour. Corrosive absolutely still has a place.

This is a very novice look at things. Technically the 75% armor reduction will do next to nothing for you at high levels, given that 25% of 5000 armor are still 1250 armor what equals still over 90% damage reduction and 75% more to lets say 400 damage after that 90% reduction are just 300 extra damage. This is the reason why the majority of our communtiy claimed 2014 that her Boltor prime\soma does fall off in damage at L80, even if the damage stays the same, it is the armor value on the target that simply rises. This opinion did not change over the years for most, hence we see all kinds of posts that DE can't nerf damage and that we need more damage. However damage was never the issue, not in 2014 and certainly not today, the issue are people that do not understand how armor scaling affects her weapons and how to utilize status mechanics against it.

This is a status weapon what I use since 2014 to actually defeat armor, build around the frame that started this stupid idea for DE:

Bu7OwMY.jpg

This is a L155 corrupted gunner, out of armor after 3 rounds, dead after 4 and this will not change much if you set that number to L200 or L1000, given that what really makes the enemy units hard to kill with pure damage weapons is not her HP it is her armor value:

WQNh4YQ.jpg

6yDbPoo.jpg

Heat allready is the best choice for this kinds of weapons, it does more damage against unarmored targets then cold by the 25% bonus and has a dot on top of that.It does not need a armor reduction function or fully stackable dots on top of that, because at this point we would most likely just slap viral/heat on that weapons and never use corrosive again. This weapons do not need more damage, what viral would do by the proc and by the bonus damage vs flesh, they did not even need the 300% damage increase they got over the years since 2014 given that doing raw damage is not what this weapons are good at, it is prenetraing a very high damage reduction on the target that is otherwise a huge issue.

Edited by Djego27
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I'd prefer if they took a look at armour scaling, and tweaked it to not be so oppressive at higher levels. We need all this armour stripping or bypass stuff because effective health gets -disgustingly- high on armored enemies as level goes up.

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I personally look forward to the elemental change, maybe they will do something with magnetic in near future too. 

As for the heat, 

In its current state heat is not all that preferred (gas and radiation as combined element are not considered). 

So I have heat on maybe 15% of my weapons as an actual damaging element, mostly due to innate elements or due to riven rolls. I would love to see an actual reason to use heat mods in weapons instead of as a filler. 

Also I am not sure armor stripping  would be right "armor tampering" perhaps would be better, 

People assume armor will melt to be less effective but this is not necessary.

most armor is made of interconnected parts, not all parts have the same heat coefficient, ever seen steam pipes burst in winter? All your nails, rivets, straps can crack, it can expose certain parts and make your overall armor less effective.

Layers can be peeled away if heated in a flash. Without the insides noticing much difference. 

So I am OK from a "makes sense" standpoint. 

Now for the actual usage I have some doubts.

It can obviously not be better than corrosive, it needs to be either slightly worse or just as good.

Maybe somewhere between shattering impact and corrosive.

Each time a heat proc occurs the base armor is reduced a fixed amount, but any damage received during this time also reduces armor further by half or equal amount of original. 

Eg:

Base armor : 100

Current levelled armor value: 500 

Multiplier :5

Heat proc base armor reduction : 2

Armor reduction on every damage instance : 2

Number of damage instances by player during proc : 5

Total  base armor reduction : 12

Tampered Base armor : 88

Tampered effective armor : 440

 

That's just my thought though, could always be better balanced with right numbers. 

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I agree with you it seems like a lazy fix.

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Posted (edited)

Eh, I'm not concerned. I think Magentic and Electric need more help than Fire does, frankly, but my guess is that the single-elements don't get used in general (Fire, Electric, Cold, Toxin) because the dual elements are used more often (as it results in adding tons of damage/status chance).

But IPS is what really needs work. Slash is powerful, the others are meh.

Edited by DrakeWurrum

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Posted (edited)

I am looking forward to change heat

But armor stripping is not the solution, it's lazy and very unnecessary 

No matter how many people like it, it would destroy what little balance we have left 

Having multiple heat procs to increase heat damage is a better option

More heat damage means better ticks 

 

 

Let's take gauss for example

If heat melts armor

Gauss now has 2 ways of armor stripping 

Imagine using firewalker bullet jump mod and just stripping armor left and right by just jumping

 

It's ridiculous and you guys didn't think it through enough

 

Edited by (PS4)Hopper_Orouk
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Maybe because armor scaling is a real trouble with enemies at high levels? of course most of you agreeing with OP might not even use Corrosive Projection to mitigate the Damage Reduction that heavily armored enemies have. For those complaining "but muh cc!" yeah, cc is super relevant in the current gameplay! isn't that why Vauban got a rework?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, (XB1)Graysmog said:

Gallium is a solid in Warframe's universe while people in heavy body armor take no fall damage and a kid in a leotard dies if he trips off a two-foot cliff.

Trying to apply logic when it's obvious this is a gameplay mechanic added to help out Fire as an element is a little odd. It's not meant to make sense, it's meant to be cool and effective.

Sure the game has several flaws when it comes to logic, that doesnt mean they should add more.

A simply damage multiplier to targets effected with heat would be better since it would naturally reflect lack of situational awareness of a target that is engulfed in flames, making it easier for the attacker to get off cheap shots on exploited areas. Reducing armor is an extremely fringe option since it makes zero sense really, especially with the armors in the WF universe. We are afterall talking regular fire for the most part here versus armors that are so much more advanaced than what we have today and in our day and age we already have armor options that are more or less immune to fire and heat.

In the end they went with a lazy solution.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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Posted (edited)

I agree that Heat shouldn't reduce armor. It runs the risk of making it real easy for Heat to just be universally superior to corrosive, on top of it muddying damage identity. I think just having new applications of Heat status refresh or even stack stun duration, while also stacking damage like Slash and Toxic, would be enough to fix Heat.

I also don't like that they keep shoving armor removal on new stuff to "fix" the problem with armor scaling. It's an ugly band-aid solution that shoehorns you into specific weapons, frames and builds. Because the insane armor levels make certain enemies nigh-unkillable without it.

At the same time, I'm pretty sure armor scaling was introduced to prevent players from breezing past hordes of enemies in high-level content. But if you do happen to have an armor removal build, you do that anyway.

They need to solve the problem at the source, and reduce armor scaling with levels. Armor scaling at all is already weird, since it reduces damage taken by a percentage. The more damage dealt, the more damage Armor reduces, by default with zero scaling.

They should instead just increase the health scaling if they want enemies to be tougher at higher levels.

Edited by Gr1mwlf
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4 minutes ago, Gr1mwlf said:

I agree that Heat shouldn't reduce armor. It runs the risk of making it real easy for Heat to just be universally superior to corrosive, on top of it muddying damage identity.

I also don't like that they keep shoving armor removal on new stuff to "fix" the problem with armor scaling. It's an ugly band-aid solution that shoehorns you into specific weapons, frames and builds. Because the insane armor levels make certain enemies nigh-unkillable without it.

At the same time, I'm pretty sure armor scaling was introduced to prevent players from breezing past hordes of enemies in high-level content. But if you do happen to have an armor removal build, you do that anyway.

They need to solve the problem at the source, and reduce armor scaling with levels. Armor scaling at all is already weird, since it reduces damage taken by a percentage. The more damage dealt, the more damage Armor reduces, by default with zero scaling.

They should instead just increase the health scaling if they want enemies to be tougher at higher levels.

Agreed on most points. I'd prefer the problem of armor scaling be fixed at the source, but since DE seems to be in no hurry to do that, I'm fine with at least getting a few more viable options.

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I don't get what's the problem with armor scaling. It makes enemies tougher as they go up in levels. Isn't that how it should be?

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14 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

I don't get what's the problem with armor scaling. It makes enemies tougher as they go up in levels. Isn't that how it should be?

Because past level 100, health and armor scaling is game-breakingly ridiculous.

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