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(PS4)Hopper_Orouk

Heat procs shouldn't reduce armor

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

That's really not a problem then, considering you don't encounter enemies over level 100 outside of simulacrum.

 

To clarify:

I believe the current scaling works great, making it clear you're NOT intended to fight enemies over level 100.

The problem isn't the scaling, it's the players trying to go for e-peen survivals for no reason. The scaling is fine, you trying to break it isn't.

STOP trying to fight these enemies. Stop trying to make DE break their game even harder so you can move the level goal post higher.

A rule of thumb: If the enemy's scaling is getting out of hand, extract. Done.

First off, I agree with you that enemies up to level 100 sort of work as designed. I don't really think armor is a problem at all. I also think that Corrosive Projection is hilariously over-valued for just about everything. Edit: I want to qualify that this is after a sufficient level of gear and mods has been obtained. It only gets easier.

However, I'm not sure if you're arguing for or against changing Heat procs to remove armor.

If Heat reducing armor isn't a big deal, then why add it in the first place? If you are fine with Heat reducing armor, because it already isn't a problem, isn't that just power creep and contributing to moving the goal post? If that soft cap of level 100 enemies is there for a reason, wouldn't allowing heat to also reduce armor fly in the face of that design?

Sorry if I am misunderstanding what you wrote. It just reads to me like circular reasoning. Again, not disagreeing with you but I wouldn't mind some clarification.

Edited by ArcKnight9202

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17 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

However, I'm not sure if you're arguing for or against changing Heat procs to remove armor.

Neither. I'm not gonna argue about something DE said once on a devstream, because before it makes to the game it will change 50 times rendering any argument pointless.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well this went quite hectic

 

All i wanted for fire was to be a damage multiplier

Viable for all factions

Currently the only elemental good for all factions is viral, it's neutral against every faction, and halves health which effectively means double damage

The "realistically bleh bleh-bleh" is irrational 

Because radiation doesn't make you hit your friends

While magnetic procs in the game doesn't attract other enemies

 

The whole reason behind the change is to make fire creatively effective against most factions

Again the prime best solution is to make enemies vulnerable to fire damage with every heat proc

It's like corrosive but works against everyone

A "universal corrosive" if you may

Well corrosive works pretty well for a universal as the only thing its weak against is proto shields at -50% and only 1 other element shares this sole reduction in damage and thats fire and only 17 enemies have this health type before armor or flesh (10 are bosses) besides that no bonus or penalty in how much you do. 

Viral damage has a -50% to infested and a -25% to machine health types every element has + and - health type just that its effect or the amount you deal outweighs the resistance most elements have this amount/benefit of effect > resistance trade even the raw ones fire DOT panic, cold slow, toxin DOT ignore shields, and shock chain stun.

The only damage elements i'd say need a looking at would be Magnetic (only affects one faction) and Void (-50% to cloned, fossil and machine and no bonuses) and if you wanted a universal effective element: Slash.  Slash procs deal true damage when it procs it's why people love it so much armor/shields doesn't matter when you can do idk gonna spit ball a number that sounds right 50k+ true damage 4-6 times from one attack getting the proc that can also crit and benefit from locational damage multipliers.

On a side note i'd like to add fire now has a kinda full circle moment with armor and i find it very entertaining

  • Effect of armor: damage reduction reducing fire damage
  • Effect of  fire: reduction in armor increasing fire damage
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4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Neither. I'm not gonna argue about something DE said once on a devstream, because before it makes to the game it will change 50 times rendering any argument pointless.

Maybe they said it on the devstream to see what the players think before making up their minds, since saying it on the devstream always results in the community discussing it openly over social media - forums, facebook, reddit, youtube, etc etc.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

For 180% (or more).

Nope. It is like using chroma and thinking that put a serration on the weapon will give you increase in 165% more dmg. That 180% element won't actually be 180% dmg increase since I'll already have some element on the weapon, and since element doesn't increase base dmg of the weapon, it is even lower.

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That ignores 75% of ferrite armour, and gets a 75% damage boost on top of that.

Who cares about ferrite armor enemies. And they are usually weak against Viral and Fire on the flesh part, think I'd use that for 2 elements, if I'd use 2.

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

If, say, an enemy has 5,000 ferrite armour and you shoot them with a gun that does 400 heat damage and 400 corrosive damage (difficult to manage, realistically the corrosive damage will be significantly higher than a single element's damage).

Oh man, that's a elitist way to think dude.

 

Edited by MPonder

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10 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Maybe they said it on the devstream to see what the players think before making up their minds, since saying it on the devstream always results in the community discussing it openly over social media - forums, facebook, reddit, youtube, etc etc.

the pitched idea seems pretty balanced/close to final form just we can't form that solid of opinions as we dont have the numbers or know entirely how it functions other than procing heat reducing armor now

  1. How much does it reduce % wise
  2. Does it all at once or over time with the ticks
  3. Does status duration increase armor shred if the later of 2 is correct
  4. Is it temporary or permanent armor removal
  5. Does stacking it speed up armor melting

Those are my questions TBH 

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16 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Oh man, that's a elitist way to think dude.

5k+ armor is around a level 81-90 heavy gunner 77-86 bombard so it's around kuva flood/ arbitration / ESO levels 80-100 / 70-80 / 60-70 respectively as you will hit that point pretty quick in the terms for heavy units as an elite lancer would need to be between levels 142-157 to have 5K+ armor and around that point i think that's were elitism kicks in but that's just my opinion 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, seprent said:

5k+ armor is around a level 81-90 heavy gunner 77-86 bombard so it's around kuva flood/ arbitration / ESO levels 80-100 / 70-80 / 60-70 respectively as you will hit that point pretty quick in the terms for heavy units as an elite lancer would need to be between levels 142-157 to have 5K+ armor and around that point i think that's were elitism kicks in but that's just my opinion

Really? They are so weak, and I'm usually with just rad on my weapons. I usually oneshot them all.

Edited by MPonder

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Where is the idea that fire will reduce armor coming from? I've watched the stream but did not get the impression that they're attempting to rework fire but Ember. Did I miss the part where DE stated that fire will "melt" armor?

Iirc it was mentioned with how the new WoF will work with the spreading etc.

If the fire status will reduce/remove armor I'd still prefer using Ignis (Wraith) with <insert fav frame> over Ember. I hope DE is smart enough to not make that change exclusive to Ember.

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7 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Really? They are so weak, and I'm usually with just rad on my weapons. I usually oneshot them all.

if its a bombard their armor is allow so +75% bonus damage (ignoring 25% of total armor and getting a +75% bonus) and heavy gunners use ferrite which is neutral to radiation no + or - there but yeah enough of it regardless of resistance can just go pfft dead Fossil has a -75% resistance to it and i can still one shot higher level ancients healers with it because i got alot on it and most weapons have some ISP on it so that tosses their damage bonuses and resistances into the ring

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

Where is the idea that fire will reduce armor coming from? I've watched the stream but did not get the impression that they're attempting to rework fire but Ember. Did I miss the part where DE stated that fire will "melt" armor?

Iirc it was mentioned with how the new WoF will work with the spreading etc.

If the fire status will reduce/remove armor I'd still prefer using Ignis (Wraith) with <insert fav frame> over Ember. I hope DE is smart enough to not make that change exclusive to Ember.

It was in the devstream. Check the recap.

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-131

Quote

Fire Procs

With Ember’s rework above, we are making changes to heat proc to be in line with other status procs in that further procs will stack damage over time. Additionally, it will literally melt armor while active, in addition to the existing damage over time and panic effects,

 

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

Where is the idea that fire will reduce armor coming from? I've watched the stream but did not get the impression that they're attempting to rework fire but Ember. Did I miss the part where DE stated that fire will "melt" armor?

Iirc it was mentioned with how the new WoF will work with the spreading etc.

If the fire status will reduce/remove armor I'd still prefer using Ignis (Wraith) with <insert fav frame> over Ember. I hope DE is smart enough to not make that change exclusive to Ember.

Quoting the overview 

With Ember’s rework above, we are making changes to heat proc to be in line with other status procs in that further procs will stack damage over time. Additionally, it will literally melt armor while active, in addition to the existing damage over time and panic effects,

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Just now, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

Thanks, totally missed that.

Leaves little incentive to use Ember over Ignis then imo.

why not both ember and the ignis? 

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Posted (edited)
vor 12 Minuten schrieb seprent:

Quoting the overview 

With Ember’s rework above, we are making changes to heat proc to be in line with other status procs in that further procs will stack damage over time. Additionally, it will literally melt armor while active, in addition to the existing damage over time and panic effects,

The change to stacking damage is good. With fire removing armor as well they've overtuned it.

I would have prefered to have a unique touch to Ember. It's Missed oppotrunity imho.

The rework imho addressed the weaknesses of her kit but seems to be overshadowed by the buffs of fire procs

Edited by (PS4)de_sch0sch
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1 hour ago, MPonder said:

Nope. It is like using chroma and thinking that put a serration on the weapon will give you increase in 165% more dmg. That 180% element won't actually be 180% dmg increase since I'll already have some element on the weapon, and since element doesn't increase base dmg of the weapon, it is even lower.

Pedantic as hell. I'm sorry what I said was so difficult to follow that you had to clarify the obvious.

1 hour ago, MPonder said:

Who cares about ferrite armor enemies. And they are usually weak against Viral and Fire on the flesh part, think I'd use that for 2 elements, if I'd use 2.

Ferrite armour is not weak to heat or viral.

Plenty of people care, especially against void enemies. 

1 hour ago, MPonder said:

Oh man, that's a elitist way to think dude.

Why are so many people in this thread so bad at math. Or fact checking even.

Please...

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18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Pedantic as hell. I'm sorry what I said was so difficult to follow that you had to clarify the obvious.

It wasn't dificult, it was just so wrong, lol.

 

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Ferrite armour is not weak to heat or viral.

Those enemies are Weak on the "flesh" part Slash b+  Heat b+  Viral b+++  Impact b  Gas b−−VoidTearIcon b−−

Flesh

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7 minutes ago, MPonder said:

It wasn't dificult, it was just so wrong, lol.

No, it wasn't. Anyone who has a basic understanding of the games modding would recognise that when I said "180% additional" that it's in reference to the base damage. There's nothing wrong in that.

But muh pedantry, yes?

8 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Those enemies are Weak on the "flesh" part

And would you believe it, that's not a relevant "part" until the armour is actually removed, so no, Ferrite armour enemies, or rather, "enemies currently possessing Ferrite armour", are not weak to viral/heat.

Now, either you armour strip in game via abilities or status prods, wherein corrosive will still allow for significantly higher damage against these enemies, or you set up a team of CP's, thus rendering the entire discussion moot.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

No, it wasn't. Anyone who has a basic understanding of the games modding would recognise that when I said "180% additional" that it's in reference to the base damage. There's nothing wrong in that.

KKKKKKKKKK, show me with math that putting +2 90% elements mods when I'm already with a heat mod will give more DPS than a Bladed Rounds/Faction dmg/Vile Acceration (any 2-mod combination with the 3) and plz, don't use the 75% if the enemie has ferrite, because I don't care about them.

By the way, 10 corrupted enemires, 3 with ferrite, one been a butcher, that has like no armor even at high lvl, another been a S#&amp;&#036; anciente: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted

Edited by MPonder
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Posted (edited)

I think heat procs should be a damage multiplier, not armor debuff, as long as an enemy is on fire, they'll receive more damage from all source. Kinda like a cheap knockoff of condition overload. 

Also the enemy has a chance to transmit heat status on other enemy who get close to the enemy on fire. 

Also if said enemy is dead, they'll make a small explosion and other enemies nearby can caught heat proc from that enemy with refreshed duration. 

 

Also, that means that damage multiplier also works on players as well. Which will slightly increase difficulty on sortie / nightmare mission with fire modifier. 

Edited by (PS4)ATreidezz

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Ferrite armour enemies, or rather, "enemies currently possessing Ferrite armour", are not weak to viral/heat.

Oh look at those void ferrite enemies, they are not weak against viral/heat, oh wait:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Butcher
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Heavy_Gunner

 "Even while armored, Cloned Flesh has vulnerabilities to Slash b Slash, Heat b Heat, and Viral b Viral damage,"

Source:  
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Damage/Cloned_Flesh

Edited by MPonder

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On 2019-10-06 at 9:16 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well because there are alot of abilities now and weapons that strip armor

And heat is easier to optain than corrosive 

Add on that you can have corrosive and heat builds

Having 2 elementals that can strip armor is too much in my opinion 

What i would suggest however is to give it that magus accelerant treatment where further heat procs makes enemies more vulnerable to heat damage ticks, or heat damage

Still 6 seconds

Still doesn't stack

But increase in damage ticks as you build in more heat

And don't underestimate heat ticks when they are huge, i've learned that from gauss 

Heat damage is good...it's only negative is against proto shields...it's neutral towards armor

Heat should be the damage amplifying type not the CC or the armor debuffing type

 

I think its a fantastic idea, hell I just want em to give even more elements armor strip procs and then add another effect on top of corrosives normal armor strip.

And once armor stripping procs can come in many flavors, just imagine the build diversity! I mean right now we dont really make much use of the various elements and with how armor scaling works ur definetly gonna be keeping either corrosive around for its armor strip or alternatively true damage from slash with either viral or corrosive (depending on the weapon).
That kinda leaves all the other elements/IPS in the dust.

But if these vital effects were added to other elements/IPS then all off them would be in the same playing field. And once they are in that same playing field then they can be balanced with some easy number tweaks. 

Now I dont necessarily think all elements/IPS should have an armor strip effect to their proc, but since its such a useful thing to have in higher lvls how about a setup where (for the most part) you always have it in your build one way or another. Ok so a bit below here is a short layout of how this could be setup. Leaving numbers out since those are easy to tweak, the idea is a damage system setup where its close enough to a balanced system that only number tweaks will be necessary from that point onwards..

Just a quick heads up this whole idea kinda manifested as a full idea while reading this thread so plz think of it more like spitballing than anything else 

Element  /  Proc effects

 Impact: stagger, -max shields
 Puncture: -damage, armor strip
 Slash: bleed, stumble chance (think of it like a random chance to stagger as long as the proc is active)

Cold: slowdown, -max shields
Electricity: chain stun, weak armor strip, weak -max shields
Heat: burn panic DoT, armor strip
Toxin: poison DoT, weak bleed

Blast: knockdown, armor strip
Corrosive: armor strip, weak -max health
Gas: toxin cloud, weak bleed
Magnetic: -max shields, -shield regen
Radiation: -accuracy, friendly fire, -max shields
Viral: -max health, weak bleed
 

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11 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Oh look at those void ferrite enemies, they are not weak against viral/heat, oh wait:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Butcher
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Heavy_Gunner

Do you not understand the concept of armor, flesh and shield damage modifiers against specific elements or are you being intentionally obtuse? 

If an enemy has armor (yellow health bar) his armor type modifiers will be what will determine damage. 

If for some reason all his armor is gone (red health bar) his flesh type modifiers will determine the damage. 

If an enemy has shields his shield modifiers will determine damage until the shields are depleted. 

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, MPonder said:

KKKKKKKKKK, show me with math that putting +2 90% elements mods when I'm already with a heat mod will give more DPS than a Bladed Rounds/Faction dmg/Vile Acceration (any 2-mod combination with the 3).

Math doesn't really seem to be your strong suit though... Regardless.

Boltor Prime. 46 damage physical, 12% crit, 2x multiplier and 36% status chance. Valid status weapon, which is really what this discussion is about. Still going to throw on a couple of crit mods to synergise with your demands for Bladed Rounds.

Serration/Split Chamber/Point Strike/Vital Sense/Hellfire/Bladed Rounds/Bane of Corrupted

You now deal 231.6 physical damage, 208.4 heat, 30% crit, a 4.4x multiplier (6.8x on BR proc) and 36% status still.

Upon shooting a, say, level 60 Heavy Gunner in all her 3,000 armour glory, your damage will be reduced by 91% by default, however Boltor Prime's large Puncture weighting does help here.

Your basic non critical attack will deal 52 puncture damage and 2 impact damage for a total of 54 physical. You will also deal 18.8 heat damage for a total damage of 73 damage.

On a normal critical hit this will be 229 puncture, 9 impact and 83 heat for a total of 321 damage.

On an enhanced critical hit this will be 354 puncture, 14 impact and 128 heat for a total of 496 damage.

When you factor in the additional 30% damage from the Bane mod, you get 645 damage on an enhanced critical hit.

Serration/Split Chamber/Point Strike/Vital Sense/Hellfire/Stormbringer/Infected Clip

You still deal 231.6 physical damage and 208.4 heat, but you now have an additional (there's that word again) 417 corrosive damage.

Same target, a level 60 Heavy Gunner in all her 3,000 armourness.

Your basic non critical attack will still deal 52 puncture and 2 impact for a total of 54 physical, as well as the previous 18.8 heat damage. Your corrosive damage, due to the gunners weakness to it, will deal 119 208.5 damage. This is a total damage of 182 281.5.

On a normal critical hit this will be, well, 801 1239 damage.

Oh hey, look at that, that's a higher number than an enhanced critical on the other build. And not only is it more damage, it doesn't have a caveat. And not only that, but it also allows for greater shred meaning even more damage.

Isn't that hilarious. I'm certainly laughing.

23 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Oh look at those void ferrite enemies, they are not weak against viral/heat, oh wait:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Butcher
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Corrupted_Heavy_Gunner

It's genuinely fascinating just how determined to be wrong you are.

Inb4 you just write all of this off.

Edited by DeMonkey
Forgot to factor in the +75% damage, not just the 75% ignore

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