Heat procs shouldn't reduce armor

[JackHargreav]

14 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

by your logic, electricity produces heat so it should too remove armor. 

Congrats for knowing basic physics.

The only problem here is that the first thing that pops into your head is, electrifying a living creature forces it's muscles to move. Since this is what actually causes death and not the heat that the electricity created.

Heat and fire usually associated with melting and burning. So melting armor is not something far fetched. And makes sense.

And before you write down the usual "But magnetism also heats up stuff so make that reduce armor" argument, well don't bother. Because my answer is still the same.

Magnetism is not associated with burning and melting.

[ThumpumGood]

On 2019-10-06 at 1:57 PM, JackHargreav said:

I'm not sure what you meant.

Armor types that don't effect armor? 

It might be just my somewhat poor english, but this doesn't make sense to me.

Real life armor. The ceramics in bullet vests dont melt to fire but they do heat up. Translate that to the game and fire always makes the NPCs panic.  Maybe not for very long, but you'll see them change their actions just long enough to reload.

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

I think people are assuming it's going to basically be a better corrosive. It won't likely the way I picture it will turn out is (nicely as I kind of suggested this myself a while back so I'm happy) Is a light mix of Dot, CC, and armor strip, just a little bit of everything. dot's that can stack but won't penetrate shields like toxin, a little CC with panic happening but can't spread like electricity, and a little armor strip on top of it but I figure not nearly as effective as corrosive at it (maybe 1 5th effectiveness? ).  Which I think will turn out fine myself. It's for good general purpose. 

[Leqesai]

Unfortunately this conversation has gone weird. Why is it difficult to have civil conversations when we disagree. 

[Aldain]

4 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Why is it difficult to have civil conversations when we disagree.

Because everyone needs to be right with zero compromise because compromise is for the weak.

As a note, I'm being 50% sarcastic and 50% serious...because that is what it feels like around here sometimes.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Aldain

[Uhkretor]

On 2019-10-06 at 8:51 AM, JackHargreav said:

Heat melts stuff. Heat melts metal for example. Armor is metal so, heat melts armor. Armor is melted then armor is reduced.

^this^

 

On 2019-10-06 at 9:22 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

In game...it's irrational to have 2 armor stripping damage types in one build

It's just ridiculous, having heat to increase it's damage overtime will synergies well with corrosive, more corrosive means weapon deals it's potential damage and more heat meand weapon deals more potential damage

Want to know what's irrational?

 

Impact not applying knockdown to an affected target on a 2nd consecutive proc, instead of staggering it.

Puncture reducing incoming damage, instead of dealing extra damage against armored targets on proc.

Gas dealing damage against enemies with masks/helmets and not bypassing shields.

Magnetic not applying Bullet Magnet effect and dealing extra damage against shields per hit, instead of reducing them to 50% on proc.

Radiation not dealing extra damage to health on unarmored targets of organic nature, except Corpus organics because of their environmental suits.

Viral not applying severe health DoT on hit, instead of reducing health by 50% on proc.

Corrosive not dealing extra health damage per hit on top of removing a certain amount of armor from an armored target.

Electric not dealing severe damage to robotic enemies, on top of stunning them.

Void not dealing lethal damage against Sentients (as its supposed to be doing) and not corrupting affected non-sentients, instead of applying Bullet Magnet on the affected area of an enemy target.

All these, taking in consideration existent vulnerabilities whenever applicable.

 

... Complaining that Heat shouldn't reduce armor is like saying that Corrosive shouldn't corrode, toxin shouldn't intoxicate, Radiation shouldn't irradiate, etc, etc, etc...

 

Also, I was already using Corrosive+Heat because of Orokin/Grineer/Infested targets taking extra damage from both elements, one way or... another.... So having heat affecting armor even further is an added bonus.... And to top it off, it'll actually behave like its supposed to, excluding the real life process of materials affected by heat... which lands on the whole point of "simplicity"

Edited October 8, 2019 by Uhkretor

[dEjAvU5566]

Instead, I thought ALL elemental damage should reduce armor, just in different ways.

Fire can stack reduction, poison can dot, reduce overtime, lighting can spread the reduction...etc.

[EmberStar]

40 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Unfortunately this conversation has gone weird. Why is it difficult to have civil conversations when we disagree. 

Because it's the Internet, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.  The discussion can't stop until they admit that and bow before the obvious superiority of the one true answer.  Now... what were we talking about?  😛

[seprent]

2 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Because it's the Internet, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.  The discussion can't stop until they admit that and bow before the obvious superiority of the one true answer.  Now... what were we talking about?  😛

committing mass war crimes with fire 

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

Now... what were we talking about?

Our concerns with today's education system.

Also war crimes, as above. Definitely. I could definitely go for some war crimes right about now.

[Vesiga]

On 2019-10-06 at 12:16 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well because there are alot of abilities now and weapons that strip armor

And heat is easier to optain than corrosive 

Add on that you can have corrosive and heat builds

Having 2 elementals that can strip armor is too much in my opinion 

What i would suggest however is to give it that magus accelerant treatment where further heat procs makes enemies more vulnerable to heat damage ticks, or heat damage

Still 6 seconds

Still doesn't stack

But increase in damage ticks as you build in more heat

And don't underestimate heat ticks when they are huge, i've learned that from gauss 

Heat damage is good...it's only negative is against proto shields...it's neutral towards armor

Heat should be the damage amplifying type not the CC or the armor debuffing type

 

?? isn't the armor stripping from embers fire the ABILITIES effect. not the fire itself. 
the idea is that she's melting the armor. 
I don't recall them saying everything that does fire strips armor. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Vesiga

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

3 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

^this^

 

Want to know what's irrational?

 

Impact not applying knockdown to an affected target on a 2nd consecutive proc, instead of staggering it.

Puncture reducing incoming damage, instead of dealing extra damage against armored targets on proc.

Gas dealing damage against enemies with masks/helmets and not bypassing shields.

Magnetic not applying Bullet Magnet effect and dealing extra damage against shields per hit, instead of reducing them to 50% on proc.

Radiation not dealing extra damage to health on unarmored targets of organic nature, except Corpus organics because of their environmental suits.

Viral not applying severe health DoT on hit, instead of reducing health by 50% on proc.

Corrosive not dealing extra health damage per hit on top of removing a certain amount of armor from an armored target.

Electric not dealing severe damage to robotic enemies, on top of stunning them.

Void not dealing lethal damage against Sentients (as its supposed to be doing) and not corrupting affected non-sentients, instead of applying Bullet Magnet on the affected area of an enemy target.

All these, taking in consideration existent vulnerabilities whenever applicable.

 

... Complaining that Heat shouldn't reduce armor is like saying that Corrosive shouldn't corrode, toxin shouldn't intoxicate, Radiation shouldn't irradiate, etc, etc, etc...

 

Also, I was already using Corrosive+Heat because of Orokin/Grineer/Infested targets taking extra damage from both elements, one way or... another.... So having heat affecting armor even further is an added bonus.... And to top it off, it'll actually behave like its supposed to, excluding the real life process of materials affected by heat... which lands on the whole point of "simplicity"

Ok by this mentality electricity in real life produce heat so it should melt armor in game 

Radiation causes sickness so it should proc viral

corrosive hurts flesh so it should deal extra damage to flesh

Slash shouldn't bypass armor

 

If i keep going like this by real life rules it won't be a game 

Not everything should work like it supposed to

You want everything to deal extra damage, reduce armor, or do lethal damage 

Because warframe players are used to have everything, 

Thank god you are not a game developer 

 

 

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Just now, Vesiga said:

?? isn't the armor stripping from embers fire the ABILITIES effect. not the fire itself. 
the idea is that she's melting the armor. 
I don't recall them saying everything that does fire strips armor. 

They will change heat procs and how heat works along with reworking ember

[Vesiga]

4 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

 

Puncture reducing incoming damage, instead of dealing extra damage against armored targets on proc.

 

This is what I thought it did when I first played Warframe. Because THAT makes sense. That's something EASY to assume. but no. 

[Vesiga]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

They will change heat procs and how heat works along with reworking ember

I thought the heat proc change was allowing it to stack multiple times like slash does. Still don't recall them saying it will strip armor only her ability stripping the armor.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 minute ago, Vesiga said:

This is what I thought it did when I first played Warframe. Because THAT makes sense. That's something EASY to assume. but no. 

Well i dk maybe because puncture already deals extra damage to armor?

[Vesiga]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well i dk maybe because puncture already deals extra damage to armor?

Likely, but the proc itself would make more sense to have the enemy take extra damage to everything in general. 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Unfortunately this conversation has gone weird. Why is it difficult to have civil conversations when we disagree. 

So far i've seen no significant trolls, no post derails, so i think it went quite well

If anything, you are the one derailing my thread right now

 

[dwqrf]

Il y a 18 heures, seprent a dit :

oh no a whole 17 enemies are going to get a buff (10 being bosses) 

You missed the point ; Just imagine if they start adding only new units (all factions) with protoshield, instead of balacing armor, or around the dual armor strip; as DE usually do : add stuff, more stuff, bandaids, rarely work/rebalanced existing content, because of all the whining it create.

[Dragazer]

On 2019-10-06 at 10:04 AM, Djego27 said:

This is a very novice look at things. Technically the 75% armor reduction will do next to nothing for you at high levels, given that 25% of 5000 armor are still 1250 armor what equals still over 90% damage reduction and 75% more to lets say 400 damage after that 90% reduction are just 300 extra damage. This is the reason why the majority of our communtiy claimed 2014 that her Boltor prime\soma does fall off in damage at L80, even if the damage stays the same, it is the armor value on the target that simply rises. This opinion did not change over the years for most, hence we see all kinds of posts that DE can't nerf damage and that we need more damage. However damage was never the issue, not in 2014 and certainly not today, the issue are people that do not understand how armor scaling affects her weapons and how to utilize status mechanics against it.

This is a status weapon what I use since 2014 to actually defeat armor, build around the frame that started this stupid idea for DE:

Very nice math there Einstein, the actual formula is: armor/(armor+300) so in this case 1250/(1250+300) would only result in 80.64% dr that is no where close to "over 90% dr" that you claimed falsely.

In your example 5000 armor would be 94.33% DR.

80.64% vs 94.33% is a 3.42x difference in ehp values. That still isn't accounting for the innate 75% damage bonus corrosive has or the fact that its procs would further remove more armor.

In short corrosive/radiation's innate dmg bonuses/armor ignore are massive against their respective armor types. Stop spreading trash info on the forums "novice".

On 2019-10-06 at 4:35 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

Well because Whenever something doesn't work properly...the prime solution is "just make it strip armor"

I'd much love heat to increase it's damage than to strip armor, it's the same thing but it's viable for all factions and health types

Why have heat plus corrosive build that can overstrip? Just why? What's the point? 

Can't we think of something more creative?

Corrosive still has a place even after heat gets it armor melting procs due to these dmg bonuses/innate armor ignore

Not all weapons are gonna overstrip just the weapons with high RoF and status slower weapons will benefit from additional armor stripping. Even in the case of fast weapons they will still have the the cc from heat procs and the soon to be added stacking DoT which will be doing massive dmg against unarmored targets

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Dragazer

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

4 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

DE: We'd like to make heat procs actually useful.

Community: Don't change a useless element that does barely any damage, change bad.

don't oversimplify it like this 

you say this as if armor stripping for heat is the answer

yet again another ill informed poster who was too lazy to read what i actually said, smh

[Uhkretor]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Electricity in real life produce heat so it should melt armor in game 

Radiation causes sickness so it should proc viral

Corrosive hurts flesh so it should deal extra damage to flesh

Slash shouldn't bypass armor

(...)

... Electricity should just affect robotics like I mentioned, since they work with electronic equipment.... I thought it was "common sense" since there's this robotics word in the sentence... But if you want to take it far enough to affect armor as well, I definitely agree with it.

... Radiation reducing organic units' health by 50% on top of the extra damage sounds a bit overkill, but like I said before... If you want it to take it far enough to add the 50% health reduction as well, I also definitely agree with it.

... Corrosive adding extra damage to health on units that have "Flesh" as a health type on top of the extra damage applied on unarmored targets, also a bit overkill... But if you want to take it far enough to add that extra extra damage on unarmored units with health type "Flesh", then I definitely agree with it.

... There is a reason why I didn't mention Slash, which isn't because everyone else uses it... The only thing that Slash should be having is a status chance reduction of applying it on armored targets, because armor, based on its DR %%... But if you want to add that to Slash effect, then I definitely agree with it...

.

... See the pattern? The more "real effects" you use on your arguments about those, the more I agree with you because they make sense and should be the effects at work here, and not what we have now...

 

... I actually pointed out things that should make sense on the current status change effects, but are irrational because they don't really do what they are supposed to... And DE kept these effects simple up untill now. Now, they are trying to make them more useful that what they already are, and turning the useless ones into useful ones... Like Heat damage, go figure.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

You want everything to deal extra damage, reduce armor, or do lethal damage 

Because warframe players are used to have everything,

... I'm used to have nothing, and expect nothing from any mechanics of any game, except the ability to have responsive controls. The least one should expect is having status chances that actually make sense, and pretty much 90% of them currently don't.

10 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Thank god you are not a game developer 

Yeah, imagine how much of a bullet jump you'd be doing right now... or spins... or range... or ability overuse and/or overpower/overduration/overefficient/overrange...

... I could go on, and on, and on... but at this point, its safe to assume you're just derailing from the topic subject you yourself defined on this topic's creation... So, lets just stay focused on the armor stripping, shall we?

 

5 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

DE: We'd like to make heat procs actually useful.

Community: Don't change a useless element that does barely any damage, change bad.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

don't oversimplify it like this 

you say this as if armor stripping for heat is the answer

ChaosSabre is right though, because its exactly what's happening here.

Oversimplified is how DE made the effects for each status change. This is what we have as a result, with the effects we've all know about for years until present time and more to come.

If Heat ends up affecting armor, than it only makes sense. Up until now, only Ember's upcoming rework is doing just that. You're the one that's already assuming stuff that may, or may not happen. And if it happens, you'll have as much choice to deal with it just as any of us will end up with.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

yet again another ill informed poster who was too lazy to read what i actually said, smh

... He probably read what everyone else said as replies to you... If you didn't want his input, especially in a public forum, then you shouldn't have created the topic in the first place...

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Uhkretor

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

7 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

Electricity should just affect robotics like I mentioned, since they work with electronic equipment.... I thought it was "common sense" since there's this robotics word in the sentence... But if you want to take it far enough to affect armor as well, I definitely agree with it.

... Radiation reducing organic units' health by 50% on top of the extra damage sounds a bit overkill, but like I said before... If you want it to take it far enough to add the 50% health reduction as well, I also definitely agree with it.

... Corrosive adding extra damage to health on units that have "Flesh" as a health type on top of the extra damage applied on unarmored targets, also a bit overkill... But if you want to take it far enough to add that extra extra damage on unarmored units with health type "Flesh", then I definitely agree with it.

You didn't understand me at all did you...

I'm not surprised why so many people on this forum misinterpret my threads now

 

These aren't suggestions, i'm telling that guy that we shouldn't make status procs by real life concepts 

And that it sound ridiculous 

He thinks heat stripping armor is normal in warframe because heat melts armor in real life

With that mentality electricity should melts armor because it produces heat...so basically by applying real life rules in warframe everything will be either broken or OP 

 

How many times do i have to repeat myself?

How many times do i have to explain my point over and over again so people don't quote me on something i didn't say

Man, i'm tired of this

[ReaverKane]

On 2019-10-06 at 8:16 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well because there are alot of abilities now and weapons that strip armor

And heat is easier to optain than corrosive 

Add on that you can have corrosive and heat builds

Having 2 elementals that can strip armor is too much in my opinion 

What i would suggest however is to give it that magus accelerant treatment where further heat procs makes enemies more vulnerable to heat damage ticks, or heat damage

Still 6 seconds

Still doesn't stack

But increase in damage ticks as you build in more heat

And don't underestimate heat ticks when they are huge, i've learned that from gauss 

Heat damage is good...it's only negative is against proto shields...it's neutral towards armor

Heat should be the damage amplifying type not the CC or the armor debuffing type

 

Heat, unlike Corrosive, actually requires a trade-over. You'll have to sacrifice maximum damage (ie having 2 90% mods) for the single stat proc.

Also having 2 means to obtain the same answer is good for variability. And if you're going to complain about it "being too easy", wrong tree...
Warframe IS easy, individual enemies aren't really meant to be difficult outside boss fights, and in those there are usually mechanics to counter the armor loss. And even then, making an enemy which you need to repeat several times over an hour "easier" isn't really a problem. For you to be right, DE would have to rework the entire reward structure of the game.

Edited October 8, 2019 by ReaverKane

[Uhkretor]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

He thinks heat stripping armor is normal in warframe because heat melts armor in real life

Let me quote you here so you can understand what's happening here....

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

You didn't understand me at all did you...

... you're pretty much hellbent in not understanding others...

Lets see... I said -> makes sense to exist instead of the current effects <- Tell me this now, is there anything I've said here or in any of my replies that these should be "normal" in warframe?

The only thing I did, on top of pointing out that it makes sense, was to give examples of status effects that are applied that pretty much a lot more irrational that having Heat affecting armor... I don't even care if it gives extra armor, that's not the point, and yet you're the one that isn't understanding a thing of what's being said. I've never said that I disagree with you anyway.

It was also pointed out that, up until now, only Ember's upcoming rework will be doing the armor stripping, mentioned by [DE] on a devstream. Extending THAT to regular Heat procs is nothing more than speculation. And even if it IS extended, then using it or not is a choice we will all have to make, including you. But until [DE] extends it beyond what Ember will most likely be doing, anything else is nothing more than speculation.

 

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

With that mentality electricity should melts armor because it produces heat...so basically by applying real life rules in warframe everything will be either broken or OP

More than they already are...? ... Really?

... Seriously, what rock did you crawl out from?

 

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

How many times do i have to repeat myself?

How many times do i have to explain my point over and over again so people don't quote me on something i didn't say

Man, i'm tired of this

... You can keep repeating yourself, and people will keep debating and/or correcting you whenever necessary. Public forums, remember?

... People will quote you on something you say, whenever is relevant... Just like you're quoting me. If there's anything that you didn't say, it won't be on any of your posts/replies.

... You're tired because people are debating with you about what is currently a speculation, on a topic you created, especially on a General Discussion topic? Shouldn't have made it in the first place... But I don't think its a good idea to throw a tantrum because people aren't agreeing with you...

 

... We're all adults here, one way or another... or at least I would like to think so.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Uhkretor