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(PS4)Hopper_Orouk

Heat procs shouldn't reduce armor

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Posted (edited)
On 2019-10-06 at 8:16 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well because there are alot of abilities now and weapons that strip armor

And heat is easier to optain than corrosive 

Add on that you can have corrosive and heat builds

Having 2 elementals that can strip armor is too much in my opinion 

What i would suggest however is to give it that magus accelerant treatment where further heat procs makes enemies more vulnerable to heat damage ticks, or heat damage

Still 6 seconds

Still doesn't stack

But increase in damage ticks as you build in more heat

And don't underestimate heat ticks when they are huge, i've learned that from gauss 

Heat damage is good...it's only negative is against proto shields...it's neutral towards armor

Heat should be the damage amplifying type not the CC or the armor debuffing type

 

Heat, unlike Corrosive, actually requires a trade-over. You'll have to sacrifice maximum damage (ie having 2 90% mods) for the single stat proc.

Also having 2 means to obtain the same answer is good for variability. And if you're going to complain about it "being too easy", wrong tree...
Warframe IS easy, individual enemies aren't really meant to be difficult outside boss fights, and in those there are usually mechanics to counter the armor loss. And even then, making an enemy which you need to repeat several times over an hour "easier" isn't really a problem. For you to be right, DE would have to rework the entire reward structure of the game.

Edited by ReaverKane

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

He thinks heat stripping armor is normal in warframe because heat melts armor in real life

Let me quote you here so you can understand what's happening here....

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

You didn't understand me at all did you...

... you're pretty much hellbent in not understanding others...

Lets see... I said -> makes sense to exist instead of the current effects <- Tell me this now, is there anything I've said here or in any of my replies that these should be "normal" in warframe?

The only thing I did, on top of pointing out that it makes sense, was to give examples of status effects that are applied that pretty much a lot more irrational that having Heat affecting armor... I don't even care if it gives extra armor, that's not the point, and yet you're the one that isn't understanding a thing of what's being said. I've never said that I disagree with you anyway.

It was also pointed out that, up until now, only Ember's upcoming rework will be doing the armor stripping, mentioned by [DE] on a devstream. Extending THAT to regular Heat procs is nothing more than speculation. And even if it IS extended, then using it or not is a choice we will all have to make, including you. But until [DE] extends it beyond what Ember will most likely be doing, anything else is nothing more than speculation.

 

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

With that mentality electricity should melts armor because it produces heat...so basically by applying real life rules in warframe everything will be either broken or OP

More than they already are...? ... Really?

... Seriously, what rock did you crawl out from?

 

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

How many times do i have to repeat myself?

How many times do i have to explain my point over and over again so people don't quote me on something i didn't say

Man, i'm tired of this

... You can keep repeating yourself, and people will keep debating and/or correcting you whenever necessary. Public forums, remember?

... People will quote you on something you say, whenever is relevant... Just like you're quoting me. If there's anything that you didn't say, it won't be on any of your posts/replies.

... You're tired because people are debating with you about what is currently a speculation, on a topic you created, especially on a General Discussion topic? Shouldn't have made it in the first place... But I don't think its a good idea to throw a tantrum because people aren't agreeing with you...

 

... We're all adults here, one way or another... or at least I would like to think so.

Edited by Uhkretor

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1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... Electricity should just affect robotics like I mentioned, since they work with electronic equipment.... I thought it was "common sense" since there's this robotics word in the sentence... But if you want to take it far enough to affect armor as well, I definitely agree with it.

... Radiation reducing organic units' health by 50% on top of the extra damage sounds a bit overkill, but like I said before... If you want it to take it far enough to add the 50% health reduction as well, I also definitely agree with it.

... Corrosive adding extra damage to health on units that have "Flesh" as a health type on top of the extra damage applied on unarmored targets, also a bit overkill... But if you want to take it far enough to add that extra extra damage on unarmored units with health type "Flesh", then I definitely agree with it.

... There is a reason why I didn't mention Slash, which isn't because everyone else uses it... The only thing that Slash should be having is a status chance reduction of applying it on armored targets, because armor, based on its DR %%... But if you want to add that to Slash effect, then I definitely agree with it...

this is the part that i meant

this is where you didn't get the point

i know it's overkill 

that's the point

i was trying to make them understand that applying real life rules to warframe wouldn't work and would make warframe more broken than at already is

19 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

More than they already are...? ... Really?

... Seriously, what rock did you crawl out from?

i don't understand, so you want more power because it's already broken? what do you mean by this, i don't get it

 

24 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

You're tired because people are debating with you about what is currently a speculation

i'm tired because people always misinterpret what i say/derail my threads

so i have two options...either ignore them completely, or having to derail my own thread to explain myself

 

 

see? i just explained myself like 3 times because none of what you said about what i said is actually true

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

this is the part that i meant

this is where you didn't get the point

i know it's overkill 

that's the point

i was trying to make them understand that applying real life rules to warframe wouldn't work and would make warframe more broken than at already is

i don't understand, so you want more power because it's already broken? what do you mean by this, i don't get it

 

i'm tired because people always misinterpret what i say/derail my threads

so i have two options...either ignore them completely, or having to derail my own thread to explain myself

 

 

see? i just explained myself like 3 times because none of what you said about what i said is actually true

... debating about speculations is tiring, isn't it? Imagine how we are all feeling, because you're hellbent in not understanding what other people is saying...

... But then again, its a public forum... With a topic on the General Discussions section... Which is free for discussion... But there isn't a single shred of discussion possible when the OP, which is you btw, isn't open to other people's opinions.

You are overreacting to a speculation, in which people is sharing their views about said speculation and telling you that you're making a storm in a shot glass.

 

Again, I agree to the overkill because the effects make sense. I ask again, is there anything in my posts/replies that states that they are "normal" in warframe?

 

What you're doing right now is throwing a tantrum because NOW you're being confronted directly with secondary facts that are directly tied to your topic's subject and most people are actually agreeing with you, with the addition of the stuff I've said before. And, again, you're overreacting to a speculation that was created by you, fed by you through discussing it with everyone else, and contradicted by you several times in a row in an to keep the discussion flowing.

I'm not even sure why we should take you seriously now... I was taking you seriously, but I don't think I can keep taking you seriously, at this point. Now, I feel like you're not only trolling my face and throwing a tantrum because you're being taken seriously, you're also trolling everyone else.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

With that mentality electricity should melts armor because it produces heat...so basically by applying real life rules in warframe everything will be either broken or OP

38 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

More than they already are...? ... Really?

... Seriously, what rock did you crawl out from?

If you can't understand this after considering Warframe's current reality, since it was a reply to one of the direct quotes, then you probably shouldn't continue this topic.

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1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

What you're doing right now is throwing a tantrum because NOW you're being confronted directly with secondary facts that are directly tied to your topic's subject and most people are actually agreeing with you, with the addition of the stuff I've said before. And, again, you're overreacting to a speculation that was created by you, fed by you through discussing it with everyone else, and contradicted by you several times in a row in an to keep the discussion flowing.

I'm not even sure why we should take you seriously now... I was taking you seriously, but I don't think I can keep taking you seriously, at this point. Now, I feel like you're not only trolling my face and throwing a tantrum because you're being taken seriously, you're also trolling everyone else.

At this point i suggest we just go back to the topic

Because all you are doing so far is throwing unnecessary punches at me and i haven't even done anything of what you say

I took all opinions

I made this post because saw DE saying they are going to change how heat works and they'll probably add a armor stripping mechanic to it, so i put my opinion on it  then i started a discussion 

It just seems that you're very hurt by this subject somehow that you decided to throw it on me 

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... But there isn't a single shred of discussion possible when the OP, which is you btw, isn't open to other people's opinions.

At what point did you think this was true?

Maybe because i criticized your opinion on wanting every damage type to deal extra damage? The most OP possible suggestion i've seen so far?

 

Like i said we shouldn't continue this any further you don't get my point and it's clearly that you're being offensive for no reason

I ask politely to leave the subject or if ignore me 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

He thinks heat stripping armor is normal in warframe because heat melts armor in real life

Ew. Gross misinterpretation. 

The only thing people are saying is that it's acceptable for it to do so, not that it's normal.

You're making such a mind bogglingly huge stretch that it's just sad.

Just because people consider one change acceptable, that uses some degree of real world logic, doesn't suddenly mean this should be the norm and everything must operate by real life rules.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Man, i'm tired of this

So are we.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

At what point did you think this was true?

At the same point you thought that "makes sense" = "normal"...

 

Also, besides you misinterpreting again, for the 4th time, what I said on my previous post, this question is left unanswered:

3 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

I ask again, is there anything in my posts/replies that states that they are "normal" in warframe?

Because we all need to know if you're actually interpreting english properly...

Edited by Uhkretor
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Glad they're making heat relevant, because it has been irrelevant against anything other then infested for years and infested get wrecked by almost anything except radiation but even with radiation on my catchmoon with -damage to infested on my catchmoon riven it tears them to pieces.  

This opens up builds in very interesting ways what they are doing with heat procs.  You aren't compelled to use corrosive anymore if you go into public missions where people aren't using 4 CP's, you can go with viral heat and not feel bad.  Or just pure heat and nothing else is solid as well like my aklex prime has because it has no room for 2nd elemental mod due to riven and primed quickdraw.  

Should be a prerequisite that if you want to complain about something, come up with a very real alternative that DE could implement instead.  

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23 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

don't oversimplify it like this 

you say this as if armor stripping for heat is the answer

yet again another ill informed poster who was too lazy to read what i actually said, smh

No I read it. Basically coz corrosive and heat together would be too good.

Guess what? People are already running 4 CP aura  groups if armor is actually a problem so it won't change much at all there.

If you are complaining that it would make the game too easy, newsflash warframe requires barely any skill to play as it is.

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I agree. Only corrosive should reduce the armor.

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1 hour ago, ChaosSabre said:

No I read it. Basically coz corrosive and heat together would be too good.

Guess what? People are already running 4 CP aura  groups if armor is actually a problem so it won't change much at all there.

If you are complaining that it would make the game too easy, newsflash warframe requires barely any skill to play as it is.

I hate this way of thinking

Just because the game is easy, just because it doesn't require skill, doesn't give us the excuse to accept having more ways to make it easier

We should sought to make the game harder for us and/or more exciting 

Encourage the devs to limit our advantage in combat while give us new creative build potentials 

Not give us another easy way out 

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With every new frame, gun, etc. etc. they're making the game easier because we have access to a better arsenal so I suppose you're against new weapons and frames too.  Exilus slot for weapons makes the game easier as well.  All of this means nothing because right now with our current arsenals we can take down level 9000 enemies no sweat with a dagger or hitting damage cap with banshee all while using 4 corrosive projections because that will still be the best way to answer armor after this change, I guarantee it.  

I still haven't heard what your grand alternative is to what they should make heat do instead to make it relevant because news flash heat in its current form is GARBAGE as an element plain and simple.  They [DE] try to make it relevant and all of a sudden it's groans from some players and rejoicing by others who want blaze or primed heated charge to be good mods.  

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I dont know why DE went into quantity of the elements rather than quality.

In my opinion we have to many elements in game and the current ones have many balanse and prupose problems. We should start off with the basic ones, balance them out and make them fun to use, and only then we should wonder if we need the combined ones.

To make elemental system worthwile we need to remake how armor works in the game.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)CodyXSavageX said:

they can probably make it unique to ember 

like how hildryn has her own abilities with shields

Unique with Ember would be good.

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AS the two posters above said. Making it unique to Ember would be good.

Heat buff for all = Being able to stack heat proc instances much like how slash and toxin does it.

Heat buff for Ember = Heat reduces armor per DoT tick. 

It would fit her theme and it would kinda explain how fire can melt armor. She does have the accelerants, possible super heated plasma and other things that would be required. The logic behind all fire being able to melt armor is just silly. We would in effect need super heated plasma ammo that hits the exact same spot over and over in order to break down the armor of anything. And when it comes to melee it turns even more silly.

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Blah blah blah

Heat corrosive is now the best "#*!% armor" solution.  I love it.  You're essentially turning heat + acid into a sort of warframe styled napalm.  Napalm was actually fairly sticky while burning, so I don't see how giving us napalm weapons essentially is a bad thing.

We need more war crime tier damage types.  And hey, fire being good should be a given.  There is nothing that cannot be killed or destroys with enough fire.

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Heat stripping armor actually does not make sense.

Yes, heat metal enough and it melts, but as an ex firefighter, I can assure you that the temperature required to even just warp a relatively thin length of metal is going to be extreme and lethal before you hit that warping point, much less melting point.  And if you consider the grineer are probably not running around in thin sheets of aluminum or building-grade steel, their fleshy bits would be gone loooong before you actually melt their metal bits.

A far more realistic effect, and one that wouldnt simply duplicate another elemental effect already in game (corrosive), would be for fire to do increasing damage over time to armored targets, with increasing debuff to the targets damage output and mobility that does not get removed easily, if at all. A downside to balance out the gameplay aspect would be for the target's screams of pain and agomy would automatically alert unaware allies in earshot... at the very least that would make fire a less than ideal damage type for stealthy gameplay approaches.

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Scream in pain and agony, I like that.

Edited by MPonder

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5 hours ago, MacKenzie7717 said:

Heat stripping armor actually does not make sense.

Yes, heat metal enough and it melts, but as an ex firefighter, I can assure you that the temperature required to even just warp a relatively thin length of metal is going to be extreme and lethal before you hit that warping point, much less melting point.  And if you consider the grineer are probably not running around in thin sheets of aluminum or building-grade steel, their fleshy bits would be gone loooong before you actually melt their metal bits.

A far more realistic effect, and one that wouldnt simply duplicate another elemental effect already in game (corrosive), would be for fire to do increasing damage over time to armored targets, with increasing debuff to the targets damage output and mobility that does not get removed easily, if at all. A downside to balance out the gameplay aspect would be for the target's screams of pain and agomy would automatically alert unaware allies in earshot... at the very least that would make fire a less than ideal damage type for stealthy gameplay approaches.

See you guys? He gets it

Simply make heat procs make enemies more vulnerable to heat damage 

Like magus accelerant 

Since ember is going to loose her accelerant ability anyways

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Or, and hear me out...

the more armour an enemy has, the more damage the heat does. As you can imagine, being in a lot of armour means you would get cooked alive like a turkey wrapped in kitchen foil.

This would be a unique way of heat dealing damage.

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I thought about this a bit. The most creative solution if they want to keep this angle, in my opinion, is to give heat a much stronger bonus to armor only while the target is under a heat proc.

I'm still not a fan of the idea in general because it seems lazy, but that doesn't mean they couldn't at least put a little creativity into it.

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What if heat becomes the viral status for armor? Imho noticable on star chart content but pointless starting at sortie level. In that case half of Embers issues would persist.

Given that my memory did not trick me the DR fromula is Armor /(Armor+300) A lvl 70 Bombard has 4.320 armor, resulting in ~ 93.5% DR. With heat applied (armor halved) its DR be only reduced to ~ 87.8% - and the difference will only get smaller as enemy level/armor rises further.

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On 2019-10-06 at 1:16 AM, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Well because there are alot of abilities now and weapons that strip armor

And heat is easier to obtain than corrosive 

Add on that you can have corrosive and heat builds

Having 2 elemental that can strip armor is too much in my opinion 

What i would suggest however is to give it that magus accelerant treatment where further heat procs makes enemies more vulnerable to heat damage ticks, or heat damage

Still 6 seconds

Still doesn't stack

But increase in damage ticks as you build in more heat

And don't underestimate heat ticks when they are huge, i've learned that from gauss 

Heat damage is good...it's only negative is against proto shields...it's neutral towards armor

Heat should be the damage amplifying type not the CC or the armor debuffing type

 

you know what a melting point is?

The melting point (or, rarely, liquefaction point) of a substance is the temperature at which it changes state from solid to liquid. At the melting point the solid and liquid phase exist in equilibrium. The melting point of a substance depends on pressure and is usually specified at a standard pressure such as 1 atmosphere or 100 kPa.

When considered as the temperature of the reverse change from liquid to solid, it is referred to as the freezing point or crystallization point. Because of the ability of some substances to supercool, the freezing point is not considered as a characteristic property of a substance. When the "characteristic freezing point" of a substance is determined, in fact the actual methodology is almost always "the principle of observing the disappearance rather than the formation of ice", that is, the melting point.

Its just logical  for fire to melt stuff, just because the devs dont realise this early is beyond me, but hey they aren't the smartest people around sometimes, and that is okay.

And No, heat damage is not OKAY, you are delusional if you think that, its the worst element by far, its about time for DE to fix that.

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