Does anyone else hate to forma weapons?

[Fallen77]

Il y a 3 heures, FrostDragoon a dit :

I've seen this argument so much over the years and it's always been a bad one.

1. Who the hell levels in Hydron these days?

2. At low MR your weapons are useless once you forma them until you relevel them. Trying to do those other missions is possible, but made much more inconvenient by it.

3. At high MR you have enough mod cap that the idea of releveling them has no significant impact on their usability, so why bother having to do it?

4. Affinity boosters are pretty pointless to anyone above MR 8 or so, tbh, because most of the places in the game don't give very good experience (where a low MR player needs it to) and anyone with a filled out star chart has access to the places that do.

5. Dragging out the leveling process even longer by doing suboptimal exp missions to relevel weapons leaves a bad taste in most players' mouths. It's like the "You're not allowed to criticize the country you live in to highlight where it could be improved. If you don't like it, move somewhere else" garbage argument. It's actually such a stupid argument that I can't believe I still have to explain it, but here you are making it.

6. Where the game was when this system was implemented is quite different from where the game is now. Namely, there's about 4-5x as much equipment to level (at least). Having to relevel them from scratch seems pretty damned arbitrary at this point. If anything, assuming we want to compromise on this at all, I think I'll refer to an earlier suggestion:

 

 

This seems best.

1 a lot of people, including some I've responded to in this thread.

2 what are you doing with your life if you're powerleveling at low Mr ?

3 why should we farm for credits ? Why should we farm for endo ? I've already maxed out a bunch of prime mods, why should I keep doing it ? Couldn't I get the rest of the mods maxed out right away ? Why should we farm for anything for that matter ? I dislike playing this game so much, I'd rather have everything unlocked from the get go, so that I can stop playing right away.

4 lol, just lol. Pointless above mr8 ? Oh yeah, forgot boosters don't work above mr8... That is laughable beyound reason, it doubles XP gained, no matter the amount. Having access to XP loot caves doesn't change that fact. And since you can double focus gain, it's still very (if not more) usefull at high mr.

5 I gave a way to farm everything more efficiently and reduce burnout potential. You're not bringing the leveling to a suboptimal XP farm place, you are doing something else entirely and leveling up stuff at the same time, not just going for a worst farm for the sake of getting a worst farm. Basically, experiencing the all game instead of only power leveling like a lemming. But if playing the rest of the game leaves a bad taste in your mouth, can't do anything for you.

Now, did I use such argument ? Did I ? Everyone can make suggestions, and everyone can respond and point out the issues/bs if need be. If anything you're trying to stop any counter point from coming up. Double standards much ?

6 arbitrary... 90% of activities in the game are arbitrary time sink, hello !  And what about that we have more gear than before ? Game has been out for more than 6 years, it balances out pretty well imo.

 

[FrostDragoon]

I think the failures of your post speak for themselves and will be clear for anyone else to see.

[Zebiko]

On 2019-10-07 at 10:09 AM, Lazarow said:

Im about to suggest sommething horrible so be ready: What if when formaing a weapon and the user is mastery 20 the weapon starts at level 20 and you need to level only the 10 remaining levels

Horrible for the devs, but I love it. Less old grinding at higher mastery, so I can focus on other endgame grinds. 

[Arcira]

I´d prefer if forma would do something like:

- adds a polarity slot which will reduce compatible mod costs by 5 points (instead of 50%)

- increase maximum weapon level by 5 up to a cap (reaktor/catalyst increase total capacity by 30 rather than doubling the existing amount)

Also a change for affinity gain where killing enemies provide far less exp. Completing missions, bounties, objectives, challenges, etc should be the main source of affinity in my opinion (a little bit tired of Hydron/ESO)

[FrostDragoon]

59 minutes ago, Arcira said:

Also a change for affinity gain where killing enemies provide far less exp. Completing missions, bounties, objectives, challenges, etc should be the main source of affinity in my opinion (a little bit tired of Hydron/ESO)

No. Not only is this totally backward, but the reason you're tired of those missions is because you're tired of leveling itself. Also, people should really stop doing Hydron. It's a horrible node, lol. ESO is legit, but repetitive. Kuva Survival is a lot more rewarding. T3 spies (Like Kappa-Sedna) can be done with your operator, but the exp goes to whatever is out when you hack the terminal--this is how I level my amps, actually... Hieracon is still a thing. Seriously, Hydron is the most boring mission type in the game and people grind it until their face falls off, then act like the problem is with how leveling works and not just their own sheepish ways.

[Frendh]

I do not see any problem with the current system for ranking up an item several times to get the amount of polarities you want. It is a very basic RPG mechanic. You grind for something to improve the stats of an item, ability or some such.

If you could get better abilities/stats with next to no work then the whole game concept would fall apart.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Frendh

[Arcira]

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Also, people should really stop doing Hydron. It's a horrible node, lol. ESO is legit, but repetitive. Kuva Survival is a lot more rewarding. T3 spies (Like Kappa-Sedna) can be done with your operator, but the exp goes to whatever is out when you hack the terminal--this is how I level my amps, actually... Hieracon is still a thing. Seriously, Hydron is the most boring mission type in the game and people grind it until their face falls off, then act like the problem is with how leveling works and not just their own sheepish ways.

 

I did some testing on your suggested locations. Keep in mind the main focus is affinity gain efficiency and not additional advantages like relics or kuva since they are hard to quantify and highly subjective. Here are my results:

Spoiler

Spy - Kappa

Affinity gain: ~ 60.000

Average duration: 4 min (since my runs were not optimal my estimation is about 3 minutes minimum for a perfect run)

Affinity per hour: 1,2 mio

Notes:

- my focus was entirely on rushing the mission as fast as possible therefore ignoring enemies on the path

- it might be worth killing enemies with aoe or stealth multiplier but I think the additional time investment will probably offset the extra affinity gain

- highest enemy level and therefore probably the most efficient one (didn´t test other T3 missions though)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kuva Survival - Taveuni

Affinity gain: ~ 100.000

Duration: 5 min

Affinity per hour: 1,2 mio (if you leave after 5 min)

Notes:

- quite unreliable in terms of affinity gain the map is big and other player tend to leave affinity range

- from my point of view not suited for leveling as main goal (especially not for weak or low level equipment but heavily dependent on your team setup e.g. Necros is obviously advantageous there)

- scaling enemies which means the longer you stay the more affinity you gain

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excavation - Hieracon

Affinity gain: ~ 60.000

Duration: 5 min

Affinity per hour: 720.000 (if you leave after 5 min)

Notes:

- Infested location therefore low affinity gain

- difficult to find groups sometimes

- similar to Kuva survival affinity range and equipment requirements can cause problems

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For comparison these are In my opinion common methods:

Defense - Hydron

Affinity gain: ~130.000

Average duration: 5 waves ~6 min (estimated optimum ~5 min)

Affinity per hour: 1,56 mio (if you leave every 5 waves)

Notes:

- essentially no requirements even bad equiment can handle enemies fine but may result in longer duration for the run

- there are people running this node allmost allways

- if you or your team level things like banshee/saryn/nova the duration of the run will decrease radical which means even more affinity per hour (isn´t included in calculation though because of the rng nature)

- scaling enemies = more affinity over time

- almost impossible to leave affinity range

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ESO

Notes:

- affinity gain is highly variable but you will almost certainly maxed out everything within the first rounds

- requires a specific setup for example you don´t want to be the damage dealer warframe in your squad

 

 

 

 

You are free to criticize the result but from my point of view Hydron is by far the best location for leveling not only in terms of pure efficiency but also convenience. The efficiency of Hydron is exeptionally high and those are the top alternatives already. Adaro might be another one but it suffers from similar issues other missions have.

 

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

No. Not only is this totally backward, but the reason you're tired of those missions is because you're tired of leveling itself.

Actually I love leveling and in my opinion warframe needs much more progression but I really dislike the way it´s done. Focus for example is the perfect negative example because it extends on an already questionable foundation.

I´d argue the current version is backward since the "modern" solution usually tends to reward you for time spend instead of enemies killed simply because you can´t make sure enemy density is eqaul for all types of missions (probably the very reason missions like spy provide additional affinity in the first place).

It´s good for secondary progress like ressource farm (in fact it would be fatal if anything is equal in terms of efficiency because testing and investigation is a big part of games), but when it comes to the main progession part different activities should be somewhat equal for your time spend. That doesn´t mean skilled gameplay shouldn´t be rewarded but playing the same thing over and over again isn´t skill.

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Arcira

[FrostDragoon]

4 hours ago, Arcira said:

I did some testing on your suggested locations. Keep in mind the main focus is affinity gain efficiency and not additional advantages like relics or kuva since they are hard to quantify and highly subjective.

Without disputing your numbers too much, because I agree that in absolute terms Hydron does give the most, the reason for those other suggestions is that they give nearly as much while also being worth your time due to the secondary rewards--except ESO, because it's just faster outright. Hydron is also the highest in boredom factor because it's the 2nd worst mission type in the game, behind Defection.

[Arcira]

55 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Without disputing your numbers too much, because I agree that in absolute terms Hydron does give the most, the reason for those other suggestions is that they give nearly as much while also being worth your time due to the secondary rewards--except ESO, because it's just faster outright. Hydron is also the highest in boredom factor because it's the 2nd worst mission type in the game, behind Defection.

Depends on your definition of nearly. At least 25% increased efficiency is quite a bit in my opinion and beside the easy accessibility probably the main reason so many player doing it. Grineer simply provide the most amount of affinity and even if you change those numbers another endless mission becomes the most efficient.

And yes it´s true with certain setups other missions can be worth it occasionally due to farming secondary ressources. But it´s far more difficult to contribute with a random low level warframe and weapon in a kuva survival. In the long term there is no alternative to Hydron unless you have consinstent access to premade groups, clanmembers or friends which are willing to carry you.

Also I did ignore boredom on purpose since it is very subjective and everything eventually becomes boring if you have to do the same thing over and over again.

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Arcira

[FrostDragoon]

33 minutes ago, Arcira said:

But it´s far more difficult to contribute with a random low level warframe and weapon in a kuva survival

You should always bring at least one thing that can contribute, regardless of which method you're leveling with. If you're leveling a frame, bring a strong weapon. If you're leveling a weapon, use a frame that can amp it up (Nova, Banshee, Chroma, Octavia, or any of the countless "hold 1 to buff group" frames). Barring that, bring some CC--Vauban vortex, Wisp blind, Excal blind, Loki disarm, etc.

[vomder]

This is one of those things that isn't to bad to do with a high MR, since you start with all that bonus capacity. Combined with the new polarity you typically don't have to leave off more than 1 mod.

[TaleTeller]

I don't hate forma per se, what I don't like is having to put 3 y polarities on all my secondaries and 2 on all my primaries just to make them viable. Damage mods are a pain