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Encouraging words from Rebecca on Warframe's difficulty problem (GameSpot interview)

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3 minutes ago, MPonder said:

Let the brain dead grind be what it is, would be too much work on it to put some difficult, give us some good boss fights or new fun mob enemies.

That's the thing and the eternal struggle, we grind to get the new stuff, most veterans get the new stuff pretty fast and then get bored because there aren't many bullet sponges during the grind, when they go onto the harder missions to get their bullet sponges they certainly expect good rewards which then new players may feel is kind of unfair to not get and the shills can't just allow veterans to have their shiny veteran rewards nor the new guys an easier time grinding the other stuff.

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4 hours ago, NinthAria said:

They've been keenly aware of it for years now. It's just...you know, creating "challenge" (whatever that means) that's interesting, engaging, and rewarding, without making it too grindy and/or so rewarding that it becomes The Thing to Do, Always, while also respecting the time and effort players have invested in their arsenals...

Yeah it's a bit of a complex problem.

Yup, and you are not going to please everyone.

Some people love the way the game is right now and being able mow through enemies. Some people want more of a challenge.

It is going to be hard to please their player base.

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DE has been aware of that for a while, and so far ... yeah ... it hasn't been that great of a situation.

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Posted (edited)

Lets just make Warframe an Xcom style turn based strategy game and call it a day~

 

30 minutes ago, Zekkii said:

Bullet sponge: survives more than one hit from literally anything?

More like 

Bullet Sponge: Survives more than one hit from my redlined weapon build with absolutely "necessary" god tier Riven that I absolutely refuse to put support mods on because there is literally no room since it's slathered with every damage mod I can get my grubby little hands on and I REFUSE to build it any other way. So change your game DE!1!!!1!one!!uno!!11!

And then we get into the futility of surviving one hit all together cause the second hit is going to kill it, whoop de freekin do. Ya know kinda like the whole reason shieldgating keeps getting tossed around and abandoned because it doesn't matter if the player survives the first hit when the second hit kills them anyhow. So the whole survives one hit thing is BS because it's going to need to go full sponge for players to notice any difference what so ever.

At which point you haven't really improved the game you've just slowed everything down. So now that mission that took you 2min will take you 6min.....everything just takes longer, super compelling addition to the game.... 

Not to mention when people keep demanding the enemies be ratcheted up to be on par with their stupid OP beyond endgame builds.... they don't even bother considering ya know literally everyone else who doesn't have those beyond endgame meta builds. Like those players who just started playing but hey screw those guys ryt~

 

About the only way DE could manage this mess would be to put a hard damage cap on DPS output based on the level of the enemies you where fighting. But that raises two problems.....

  1. the whiners who won't build for anything but redlined DPS will spaz out because you just essentially nerfed them by proxy of implementing damage scaling in the game. Since they'd be getting scaled down to match the enemies. 
  2. Now literally everything is going to feel super samey EG lvl 1 enemies will feel just like lvl 200 enemies assuming you where using gear meant for lvl 200 enemies. So there would never really be any sense of progression even tho you where steadily progressing. 

That is of course assuming DE can cobble together a damage scaling system that could make sense out of the like three or four disjointed systems that kinda mesh together to form your actual damage output. 

 

Edited by Oreades
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The vocal players hate challenge. The truth is that players prefer bullet sponges more than anything. Any enemy that has been challenging in any way has been nerfed into bullet sponge status. 

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What if they took the Dynasty Warriors method: lots of weak mobs paired with really strong elite units.

They could do all sorts of experimental things with them in order to make them a priority target that doesn't die immediately. They could even use the models and weapons from Rathuum and Index to start with in order to make them more Unique.

That would keep the current game pace in that thousands die when you breathe but stronger enemies would be present that would be able to stand against a player for a bit longer or be highly resistant to CC/Status/damage/ect.

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I don't think "challenge" can exist organically in the kind of game warframe is.  It would have to change a lot for that to happen.  I personally don't see the desire to have mega challenging content in a farm based game.  But different strokes for different folks I guess.  I have much more fun finding new ways to play the existing content.

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Posted (edited)

The context of the quote is interesting...

Quote

Interviewer: “… At what point do you say ‘No, we have a vision for this thing.’”

Reb: “That is the, I think that’s the dream sentence for me to say more this year with the team, is ‘this is our vision’. Because a lot of the players I think have been giving us feedback for what they think our vision is, or what their vision is. And I think that if we can unify it the future of Warframe’s difficulty tiers, its balancing levels will make more sense for people. Because there really is a huge power disparity in a lot of our content, player can really one shot everything at a certain level. Which is great, I think. But when people talk about ‘I’m bored of Warframe’ its because it has gotten too easy for them. So it is how do we solve that problem and unify dev team and community. Which is going to be the challenge for 2019.”

 

Heavy emphasis on that bolded part. Every rework thread, every suggestion, every piece of feedback you give is based on what you think Warframe is. And as I am sure many have noticed, not everyone thinks Warframe is the same thing. One of the most irritating things I see on the Forums are people who think that they know, with full confidence, what Warframe is and what it should be. You even see it in this thread, people just aren't even entertaining the possibility that everything they think about the game is wrong.

If DE does give Warframe a vision, then from a lot of people's perspective DE will be giving up what Warframe is (to them). Imagine someone that thinks Warframe is supposed to be a tactical shooter where energy is supposed to be a rationed resource. If DE suddenly tells the community "Warframe is basically Dynasty Warriors" that person will feel like DE is destroying the game, destroying its identity. Even though Warframe doesn't have an identity, that person assigned one and they believe it to be reality. In other words, DE focusing their vision will piss a lot of people off.

And if you just read this and thought "*scoff*, what a dumb example, the game isn't like that at all it is clearly ___, everyone knows that"... yeah, I'm sure you think that buddy.

Edited by DrBorris
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1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Not to mention when people keep demanding the enemies be ratcheted up to be on par with their stupid OP beyond endgame builds.... they don't even bother considering ya know literally everyone else who doesn't have those beyond endgame meta builds. Like those players who just started playing but hey screw those guys ryt~

inb4 Someone tells you new players aren't supposed to be playing that or something like that, we also have time gates that prevent new players from reaching that point but people shilling for "challenge" will complain the moment a new player can reach them in less time, just consider how most OP builds still require real time (or plat) investments and certain people will complain about that, when DE refuses to reduce the Hema research cost I can only imagine the amount of people who would actually complain about that and then realize those are the hallucination the devs have when it comes to players reaching "endgame" content.

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5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Being aware and doing something about it are not quite the same.

while an acknowledgement is always welcome some actual actions are what need to be shown ,

I think we often forget that they have a major goal to accomplish while still trying to address our concerns (potentially thousands and thousands of requests, changes, reworks, etc.). Looking at the dev workshop alone blows my mind with just how many requests they receive. Adding rando difficulty and reconstructing scaling would be added chaos if building within current content...so much so, we would be out with the pitchforks screaming for bloody murder because there would be no focus on content progression. Looking at where the games is now, I didn't expect them to just randomly change the entire scope and model of Warframe's difficulty without also applying a real reason to be difficult. Their route is definitely not the solution for this generation of gamer impatience...but, then again, warframe was never designed for the impatient.

DE puts in a helluva lot of detail that slows the process and I agree it can rattle the nerves but I'm also very happy they stay the course. For them, telling the story is critical to the model and is also the best reasoning to fulfill requests while remaining on the big task. Railjack and New War creates a LOT of room to add difficulty, puzzles and refreshing content that vets want while also giving new-mid level players an even larger library of content to navigate through.

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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The vocal players hate challenge. The truth is that players prefer bullet sponges more than anything. Any enemy that has been challenging in any way has been nerfed into bullet sponge status. 

There was a thread I made on feedback (because people say devs only check that section despite said threads dying pretty fast) where I proposed to have enemies stick to more defined roles while reworking their health pools and kits, for example, sniper units should always try to stay away from the player, they can have medium or low health with high damage, units like Nox could be front liners with only medium damage but high HP, melee units would have good mobility and medium HP unless they are special units like Maniacs which would be slightly lower HP but higher damage, etc., not to mention getting rid of all the aimbots and omniscient AI where they even shoot at the wall because they don't need to see the player to know where they are.

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6 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Well, they already showed that they are aware of this in the first Devstream of this year, i think they even wrote the word challenge on the whiteboard.

And they probably have done this in the past aswell, still no actions have been taken so far...

 

The one thing they have in mind for challenge are the kuva-liches right now, and tbh i dont think it will solve the problem.

Its just another system on top of tons of other systems, and you probably can ignore it if you want to.

 

At the same time, our weapons will get another modslot soon (not a bad thing though), the "general balance" of the game remains untouched and "hard" design decisions like Damage 3.0 simply got scrapped because there could have been a huge outcry from the community...

 

Note: I dont want to judge whether the whole kuva-lich system will be good or not, but i am sure it wont change huge parts of the game.

Again, it will be another system on top of what we have, but the (mostly unbalanced) foundation remains the same.

In B4 “NUWARSentients2Hard4me”! 

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7 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

This interview is a week old but I didn't have time to watch it until now. I also don't see threads discussing this.

This part of the interview with Rebecca at the 14:52 mark made me happy as she directly addressed the power scaling vs. difficulty problem in Warframe. She mentions how being able to one-shot everything up to certain point leads to boredom because the game feels too easy, and that's a challenge they (DE) want to tackle on as a team. How they go about it is anyone's guess, but it is encouraging to know that they are aware of it in no uncertain terms.

I gave them a lot of flak a few weeks ago for the Arbitrations fiasco as it felt like they were ignoring us, and I am aware this interview was recorded months ago around TennoCon and only now released to the public, but it served as a reminder to have a little faith in them. They may be slow to act, but they do know our grievances with the game.

Cheers to what Empyrean/The New War will bring.

They will nerf everything so you need to two-shot things.

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1 minute ago, toafarmer said:

They will nerf everything so you need to two-shot things.

Or double their armor scaling to accomplish the same thing.

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3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

the game felt a lot more rewarding and engaging at the beginning. Looking back, when I started the game, it was a lot more difficult. I even played stealth with Excal to avoid getting damaged because with my Endo reserves and credits I was a soft target

Okay, why don't we put the feeling of this "soft target" back for you, except the stake is higher where you lose all of your currently equipped gears from warframe, weapons, companion and arcanes? Surely it will be more engaging to you where you need to avoid getting damaged

3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

boredom because your growth is not paired with something that makes you feel you've grown and that you are powerful.

So, being able to one shot enemies at levels you weren't able before doesn't make you feel you've grown and powerful?

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1 hour ago, Ohmlink said:

What if they took the Dynasty Warriors method: lots of weak mobs paired with really strong elite units.

They could do all sorts of experimental things with them in order to make them a priority target that doesn't die immediately. They could even use the models and weapons from Rathuum and Index to start with in order to make them more Unique.

That would keep the current game pace in that thousands die when you breathe but stronger enemies would be present that would be able to stand against a player for a bit longer or be highly resistant to CC/Status/damage/ect.

I like this proposal, but I think it is actually the current game's design and the purpose of Eximus units. Steve himself said in a stream (With regards to melee) that Warframe's plays more like Dynasty Warriors with regards to how we deal with dozens of enemies at once. Either Eximus need a heavy buff, or as you suggest, they could experiment throwing in more elite enemies like those from Rathuum into the mix.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I don't think "challenge" can exist organically in the kind of game warframe is.  It would have to change a lot for that to happen.  I personally don't see the desire to have mega challenging content in a farm based game.  But different strokes for different folks I guess.  I have much more fun finding new ways to play the existing content.

What is "organic" challenge?

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Okay, why don't we put the feeling of this "soft target" back for you, except the stake is higher where you lose all of your currently equipped gears from warframe, weapons, companion and arcanes? Surely it will be more engaging to you where you need to avoid getting damaged

I play DMC5 on Dante Must Die difficulty. I say bring it on! If that's what it takes for DE to keep me engaged for 2 more years so I can buy Khora Prime Access then I'll gladly take it! 

See why veteran player retention is important? 

24 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So, being able to one shot enemies at levels you weren't able before doesn't make you feel you've grown and powerful?

Yes it did, up until my growth rate continued to grow disproportionately with regards to how I was approaching the game and how the game reacted to me. It started to feel like instead of killing enemies, I was killing ants by pouring molten aluminum down their nest. Meaning, extremely one-sided, and therefore no longer engaging.

To me, the enemies that show up just 1 hour into Arbitration feel like the enemies I should be fighting by default. I miss the struggle. I miss the adrenaline of barely surviving a mob and having to run away to reload or find some health orbs. I miss feeling like it's not just a numbers game.

I had that in the early game. 

Edited by Jarriaga

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1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

I play DMC5 on Dante Must Die difficulty. I say bring it on! If that's what it takes for DE to keep me engaged for 2 more years so I can buy Khora Prime Access then I'll gladly take it! 

See why veteran player retention is important? 

So you don't mind the risk of losing everything you equipped from any mission as your retention? Alright, maybe this system can be made exclusively for you as a test, means no excuse for you to come to the forum crying when you lose your maxed arcane grace, umbral build frames and weapons with rivens and you need to reclaim it or get a new set of those lost gears because you died once

 

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Yes it did, up until my growth rate continued to grow disproportionately with regards to how I was approaching the game and how the game reacted to me. It started to feel like instead of killing enemies, I was killing ants by pouring molten aluminum down their nest. Meaning, extremely one-sided, and therefore no longer engaging.

To me, the enemies that show up just 1 hour into Arbitration feel like the enemies I should be fighting by default. I miss the struggle. I miss the adrenaline of barely surviving a mob and having to run away to reload or find some health orbs. I miss feeling like it's not just a numbers game.

You're a Tenno, an omnipotent being fighting mortals, what do you expect? As a demigod you expect every mortal human to be able to face you at your level?

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2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So you don't mind the risk of losing everything you equipped from any mission as your retention? Alright, maybe this system can be made exclusively for you as a test, means no excuse for you to come to the forum crying when you lose your maxed arcane grace, umbral build frames and weapons with rivens and you need to reclaim it or get a new set of those lost gears because you died once

I have played most DMC games sans DMC5 and I have to ask what you mean by that, you mean dying and losing everything you had? I don't remember dying on any DMC game and losing anything except maybe some progress in the area I was playing.

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7 hours ago, NinthAria said:

They've been keenly aware of it for years now. It's just...you know, creating "challenge" (whatever that means) that's interesting, engaging, and rewarding, without making it too grindy and/or so rewarding that it becomes The Thing to Do, Always, while also respecting the time and effort players have invested in their arsenals...

Yeah it's a bit of a complex problem.

This. I think people dont really think about what they're asking for sometimes. It would be quick and easy for them to give enemies 10x as much health and 10x as much damage (or more) and call it good but "challenging" doesnt necessarily mean "fun".

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

This. I think people dont really think about what they're asking for sometimes. It would be quick and easy for them to give enemies 10x as much health and 10x as much damage (or more) and call it good but "challenging" doesnt necessarily mean "fun".

The best sessions I had were still weak enemies but they were all over the place, I was moving around and they were relentless, then again, I am a power fantasy player, the kind of player veterans may not like because I despise bullet sponges and one-shots from sorties.

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13 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Stuff

If you feel like the early game was more challenging and more fun for you, you know you dont have to use completely min maxed builds all the time right? You can make the game more challenging by making yourself less powerful.

 

I'm not making any assumptions about you, but I think it's funny how people will put like 6 forma in a warframe so they can use umbral mods, use maxed arcanes, use three riven modded weapons with like 30 forma between them, and use mods that have like 70 trillion worth of endo and then wonder why everything dies like ants.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If you feel like the early game was more challenging and more fun for you, you know you dont have to use completely min maxed builds all the time right? You can make the game more challenging by making yourself less powerful.

You should see how they react when I tell them to just equip 3 dragon keys (hobbled is stupid even for handicaps.)

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Honestly I don't think they'll be able to truly solve the challenge problem until they finally decide to push forward with two very important things.

Damage 3.0 where they talked about changing multishot and getting rid of some damage mods and stuff. and generally reworking damage in general cause as is it can get so out of hand even without warframe powers at play or powercreep rivens (which rivens in and of itself will be a huge problem for making challenging content since they can't feasibly balance around anyone having a riven but rivens can get stupidly powerful. and getting a new slot so people can more easily fit rivens isn't helping anything) they can't be paralyzed by the idea of player backlash and everyone throwing a fit over it all if it in the end is truly for the benefit of the game and for better balancing of future content.

The new system of Tau needs to have a lock behind it so they can start balancing around later game players and not new mr4 or something that got carried there. A lot of the things they've made still have had the considerations of newer players in mind which while not a bad thing itself definitely isn't going to come close to pushing the boundaries of difficulty. Or perhaps put an open world on a further planet like Eris for infested open world where you can push that. The original Corpus on Fortuna were pretty tough and hit hard and fast but it was on Venus so there was legitimate reason to cut the enemies back unfortunately.

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