Encouraging words from Rebecca on Warframe's difficulty problem (GameSpot interview)

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Isn't comically low drop rates exists on every game? Even with games with hard cap/power ceiling to make people stay and grind while the new content is in progress

While low drop rates aren't anything new to gaming, Warframe's drop rates aren't exactly a shining example to live up to, Harrow Systems for example being super rare in Defection rotation C.

Low drop rates, especially for a free to play game, are to be expected, but Warframe also has to account for how fast players can farm items which further shoves things lower since farming anything in Warframe has a near zero chance of failure.

Because farming is so easy things need to be rarer, whereas in some other games, outside of specific "Legendary" drops loot is more based on the variables on the item rather than the item itself, which is why say Borderlands has guns showing up everywhere, but most of them are trash, whereas Warframe's non resource drops have a fixed value which means they often have to be rarer to compensate alongside the easy farming (I personally gave up after 3 weeks of farming Defection and just bought Harrow on a discount on Switch).

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Wow. You really are using those weak talking points that some CCs use. Ok, here we go:

1) DE isn't the issue, it's you, the player. You can whine about difficulty all you want but it's not the model of the game and especially was not what the call to arms was about until after you had your fill. The very core of the gameplay is to build an overpowered super ninja that has very entertaining ways to destroy enemies. Every adjustment to the gameplay was directly requested from the early version of "you", before hour 1000 or login day #365. That said, why would DE design something players didn't originally lust for? Kinda hard to go from overpowered to underdogs unless the new content warrants it.

2) Trying to please a spoiled kid that has everything is a nightmare unless you either take all the toys away and make new ones (throwing him into a temper tantrum) or teach that spoiled rotten kid patience until new toys can be made (throwing her into a temper tantrum). It's not a smart idea to just throw rewards in to a model that vets would still complain about (Ropololyst rewards taught DE that lesson when vets and Youtubers bashed then over it). Also, if an operator skin is great for player one but sucks for you, then what would your reward be? Answer that carefully because player one might be pissed at your reward.

3) Since many players, logged in constantly or not, haven't even defeated the tridolan, let alone the first orb boss, then why would DE rush to create a solution to so few? Content isn't difficulty. Content is Gas City and it's crazy size, new puzzles, updated lore, new game mode, new warframe, new weapons, new boss, new secret rooms, new mods and new melee/gunplay mechanics. None of that cost us money so I don't know where you got that lie that DE is all about cosmetics. I do agree that Tau should be locked, level 50+ and make corrosive and bleed damage non factors with the sentients. Lastly, DE is employed by adults dude. I'm quite sure they're not worried about your little "dare".

Where do I start... 

Firstly I've almost since release and I can tell you the game has gotten progressively easier over the years, not because I got better, because of power creep. DE has no idea of some of the synergies that currently exist for being able to play a mission endless and trivialize all content, if they playtested things properly they could make new content engaging and challenging but since they themselves lack the game knowledge and they refuse to use players who do possess it, this will never happen.

First off, don't call me entitled please, I'm not. I'm simply a player who yearns for more challenge in what was once a great game. It's not hard to see they just constantly churn out new weapons with very little thought process behind their design, many either resemble an already existing weapon or are simply not well balanced. Personally for nightwave rank 30? It should be something like arcane energize, or perhaps a new weapon, something that everyone can use. Even a veteran can just sell the arcane for plat.

We have too many mods, far too much power creep and in it's current state, warframe cannot be balanced. Rivens were a huge error and adding an exilus slot to weapons is just going to exacerbate this error.

Let's explore that new content, take the event. Basically every way players found to do it was considered an exploit therefore players were pigeon holed into how DE wanted us to do it. Creativity and variation is discouraged by their actions. Most of their new content is geared at adding more stuff they can sell you (it is a business ofc) but they have allowed this to become their primary focus over the last 2 years snd that's not healthy. More and more old players are leaving, the market is constantly updated with more things to spend your plat on etc. This is aimed at new players who join the game and buy all the shinies after whipping out their credit card, this is now their main aim. If you can't see that then maybe you'll figure it out in due time.

Lastly I didn't dare them, I simply stated they will never do such a thing and explained why. I find it funny how people call this insulting DE, being entitled etc. Everyday I deal with dissatisfied clients, if someone is not happy with a product that they are invested in they have the right to voice their opinion. Just look at all the abandoned content currently in the game that they don't bother fixing or revisiting. Karma choice during War Within, Lunaro, Conclave, Raids removed and said they'd look at reintroducing them, Eidolons broken as hell, How's that 3rd Orb Vallis Spider going?... aaannd many more.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Zilchy

[844448]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

While low drop rates aren't anything new to gaming, Warframe's drop rates aren't exactly a shining example to live up to, Harrow Systems for example being super rare in Defection rotation C.

Low drop rates, especially for a free to play game, are to be expected, but Warframe also has to account for how fast players can farm items which further shoves things lower since farming anything in Warframe has a near zero chance of failure.

Because farming is so easy things need to be rarer, whereas in some other games, outside of specific "Legendary" drops loot is more based on the variables on the item rather than the item itself, which is why say Borderlands has guns showing up everywhere, but most of them are trash, whereas Warframe's non resource drops have a fixed value which means they often have to be rarer to compensate alongside the easy farming (I personally gave up after 3 weeks of farming Defection and just bought Harrow on a discount on Switch).

With 7.52% on tier 1 mission in Phobos, and 11.28% on tier 2 and 3, it's very spoiling the players especially when the other drops are relics which still useful to get prime parts. If you're not getting the system, it's RNG at it again.

Or your luck is bad

[Aldain]

49 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Or your luck is bad

Could not be more true.

I swear that 11.28% is just a big fat lie, 3 weeks of going to 8 squads multiple times every 2-3 days and I didn't even get one Enduring Strike.

I actually had 24 of one of the relics (I think it was a Z type) by the time I gave up, 24 of one, specific, relic.

And that is my non-sequitur of why of all things in Warframe I hate Defection with a violent bloody passion. /venting

My luck is famously bad with RNG anything, hek, it took me 4 days just to get some normal Ember systems to drop.

[40PE]

On 2019-10-07 at 6:40 PM, Jarriaga said:

This interview is a week old but I didn't have time to watch it until now. I also don't see threads discussing this.

This part of the interview with Rebecca at the 14:52 mark made me happy as she directly addressed the power scaling vs. difficulty problem in Warframe. She mentions how being able to one-shot everything up to certain point leads to boredom because the game feels too easy, and that's a challenge they (DE) want to tackle on as a team. How they go about it is anyone's guess, but it is encouraging to know that they are aware of it in no uncertain terms.

I gave them a lot of flak a few weeks ago for the Arbitrations fiasco as it felt like they were ignoring us, and I am aware this interview was recorded months ago around TennoCon and only now released to the public, but it served as a reminder to have a little faith in them. They may be slow to act, but they do know our grievances with the game.

Cheers to what Empyrean/The New War will bring.

Thanks for the link. Watched with overflowing hype and some ... Stuff in me eyes.

I would add one thing, they aren't slow to act they do a LOT at once, and probably understaffed like 90% of IT focused companies, when it comes to spread man power for the daily tasks, bug fixing, development, content creation every, EVERY company falls short today! D.E. is not exception.

D.E. Is my new Blizzard.

[Sigma-118]

17 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I never said that the veteran base was the most valuable or that DE gets the most money out of veterans. I am using myself as a reference as to why veteran retention is important, because they still lose money when they lose us. They'll need to keep me invested for at least 2 more years so they can get Khora Prime Access money from me in particular. I'm not quantifying which base spends the most. I'm referring to what I want to spend money on. Money they'll lose if they can't retain me.

No idea why you went there.

There was a guy who beat Dark Souls using a guitar hero controller. There is a point in which you become so good at a game that nothing can keep up with you. That is true.

However, in those other games, that difficulty plateau is still designed to accommodate what is expected from a late-game player. Warframe completely ignores it. Difficulty peaks extremely early into the game vs. how much you can grow, hence why the disparity is so painfully noticeable.

Warframe mobility is only an advantage in the early game. Late game players stand still and nuke the map.

I went there cuz if DE does things that effect the game for the purpose of keeping you around and do eventually get that purchase from you. What happens if they lost 4 or 5 purchases because they change the game/change part of the game/add content specialised for you. If their loss is bigger than their gain suprise suprise the totality is a loss.
As we both know DE is going in pretty much the opposite direction from what your asking for. Can you imagine the massive loses they would experience if they were to just add some content made specifically for you (well the part of the community that you could aptly be grouped into)? Even if its just one piece of content it will be a departure from the games current direction. 

And that will create and air of uncertainty for the rest of the community. And financially speaking that is a HUGE bloody risk.

As for the design of the difficulty plateau, im not gonna deny that plenty of games difficulty designs are more satisfying to go through than warframes. But are any of these MMOs? 
Cuz single player, lan style co-op etc. work with very different limitations and freedoms compared to a game built around having thousands of people playing online at the same time.
Personally i've never even heard of an MMO (discounting PVP heavy games) with a difficulty curve satisfying enough to even be compared to stuff like dark souls.
Since theres been a bunch of talk about what MMO means over the years I just wanna specify i'm using the definition of any game built around being constantly online playing with thousands of other players.

And finally mobility thingie. I was not talking about active playstyles but rather made the statement that even without all the extra tools we have we would still be powerful enough for the game to be pretty damn easy as long as we have the current movement system. Though that wasnt a main point or anything, just a mention on the side so to speak.

[Jarriaga]

17 hours ago, Sigma-118 said:

I went there cuz if DE does things that effect the game for the purpose of keeping you around and do eventually get that purchase from you. What happens if they lost 4 or 5 purchases because they change the game/change part of the game/add content specialised for you. If their loss is bigger than their gain suprise suprise the totality is a loss.
As we both know DE is going in pretty much the opposite direction from what your asking for. Can you imagine the massive loses they would experience if they were to just add some content made specifically for you (well the part of the community that you could aptly be grouped into)? Even if its just one piece of content it will be a departure from the games current direction. 

And that will create and air of uncertainty for the rest of the community. And financially speaking that is a HUGE bloody risk.

While I agree pleasing some players will mean losing others as it is impossible to make everyone happy, changes to difficulty scaling by themselves have no net worth of positive or negative results. Rather, it depends on how implementation is handled in order to accommodate veterans without shafting newer players. For example?

1) Make difficulty a toggle option instead of forcing a higher difficulty on everyone.

2) Make specific missions tiles with very high difficulty so you can choose to engage with them or let them be.

The only problem there is that some people will just think the increased difficulty is not worth their time and effort, so they'd return to play on easy. In any game, harder difficulties offer better rewards, but you'd then get the complaints that DE is locking people out of content based on skill. At that point, they'd have to make a decision.

17 hours ago, Sigma-118 said:

As for the design of the difficulty plateau, im not gonna deny that plenty of games difficulty designs are more satisfying to go through than warframes. But are any of these MMOs? 
Cuz single player, lan style co-op etc. work with very different limitations and freedoms compared to a game built around having thousands of people playing online at the same time.
Personally i've never even heard of an MMO (discounting PVP heavy games) with a difficulty curve satisfying enough to even be compared to stuff like dark souls.
Since theres been a bunch of talk about what MMO means over the years I just wanna specify i'm using the definition of any game built around being constantly online playing with thousands of other players.

I don't think being an MMO means anything in particular. What does MMO mean with regards to the combat or gameplay loop? Does it mean it's a shooter? Does it mean it's point and click? How does Warframe play?

Steve himself has said that WF's combat loop is more like Dynasty Warriors. Taking the game's creative director's words as a base, how does Dynasty Warriors handle higher difficulties?

1) Increase base enemy horde level. ( Enemies in WF do scale infinitely. The problem is pacing. I should not have to wait 1-2 hours to fight enemies appropriate to my gear).

2) Throw around elite enemy units that have a lot more HP than normal base enemies and deal a lot more damage. These elite enemies tend to have buffs your character may not be able to exploit. (That's what Eximus units are supposed to be, but they are not distinctive enough to feel like elite units. In DW, elite units tend to have your own abilities and are more than just cannon fodder enemies on steroids).

3) Rather than killing you, these elite unites often stall you and target your mission objective so you can fail the mission instead. (WF has nothing like this other than in Disruption, but that's the design of that game mode per se rather than a difficulty balancing mechanism).

As a base, the following things can be done to increase challenge:

1) Allow players to select missions with a high base enemy level (150-200 from the very beginning).

2) Throw in miniboses beyond Eximus units that feel meaningful and threatening. Enemies designed to counter Warframes by being immune to ability damage, having damage caps per player so you can't be the only one attacking it with your Riven Rubico while other players mind their own business like the enemy is not there, enemy buffs while they are close, and a health restore nullifyer aura so the enemy feels dangerous by making you take "permanent" damage while it lives. An enemy that feels like a threat you have deal with ASAP and make it a priority over trash mobs because of how dangerous it is. Some players would definitely hate enemies like this being thrown around even if sporadic, but it would make the mission a lot more engaging.

3) Add enemies designed to make you fail missions instead of killing you. For example, in Interception, add an enemy that can capture all 4 towers at once if you fail to stop it and/or or an enemy that prevents you from capturing any tower as long as it lives. In Survival, add an enemy that can destroy unused life support capsules if you fail to stop it and/or an enemy that decreases life support levels for as long as it lives. And so on. 

I am under no delusion WF can reach Dark Souls difficulty levels. It is not the same game design. Dark Souls, Devil May Cry and Monster hunter are focused enemy encounters. WF is a horde shooter that plays like Dynasty Warriors, which means any possible difficulty improvement would need to adapt to said core framework.

17 hours ago, Sigma-118 said:

And finally mobility thingie. I was not talking about active playstyles but rather made the statement that even without all the extra tools we have we would still be powerful enough for the game to be pretty damn easy as long as we have the current movement system. Though that wasnt a main point or anything, just a mention on the side so to speak.

The movement system doesn't make you powerful. You don't get damage buffs or damage reduction buffs while wall latching or double-jumping unless you mod for it. And even then, it is neutralized at higher levels. You can not dodge hitscan. You can only dodge projectiles. Enemy accuracy increases with enemy level in WF. There's a point in which it is impossible to dodge hitscan unless you wish to present the argument that you are so fast in your input that you can get away faster than a computer calculates "Is X present in LoS hitscan cone Y/N? If Yes, damage¨.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Hypernaut1]

On 2019-10-07 at 7:15 PM, VanFanel1980mx said:

There was a thread I made on feedback (because people say devs only check that section despite said threads dying pretty fast) where I proposed to have enemies stick to more defined roles while reworking their health pools and kits, for example, sniper units should always try to stay away from the player, they can have medium or low health with high damage, units like Nox could be front liners with only medium damage but high HP, melee units would have good mobility and medium HP unless they are special units like Maniacs which would be slightly lower HP but higher damage, etc., not to mention getting rid of all the aimbots and omniscient AI where they even shoot at the wall because they don't need to see the player to know where they are.

Believe it or not, the enemies in Warframe are VERY diverse and the a.i can actually do things like that and they DID do things like that. Problem is, anytime an enemy becomes effective, players cry for a nerf or call it cheese. 

Unnerfed, the enemies in Warframe pose an excellent challenge that requires strategy, situation awareness and anticipation. No one likes that though. They just want to run in, guns blazing whittling down every enemy in any order and move on to the next room doing the same thing with little care for strategy. 

There was a time when even ROLLERS actually mattered when they spawned. You had to take them out or they would CC you to your death as other mobs picked you apart. But no, players didn't want to find high ground to kill them. They were nerfed and don't matter now. (What do they even do now?) Players considered it cheesy simply because it forced them to adjust their approach. Bursas were once tough as a mini boss, a true punishment for allowing alarms to go off unchecked. They required agility to get behind and their attacks were dangerous enough that you couldn't just ignore them as if they were an annoying Roomba. Manics were so tough at a time, only 1 would spawn in a level and it stalked you. You would literally have to stop what you were doing to take care of one or it would get the jump on you. If it did, it would jump on your chest and attack until it killed you or brought you near death unless a teammate was nearby to rescue you. There was a time when you had to hunt snipers down first when entering a room. 

I could go on and on. The enemies in Warframe are actually well designed, diverse and the a.i can be decent. It's the players that want mindless bullet sponges. Anytime a unit poses a challenge DE tunes them down into fodder- every time. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

No matter what label people give Warframe (shooter, looter, whatever), the core gameplay boils down to: gather blueprints (normally boss fights or special encounters - or buy them), then gather tons and tons of ingredients, and then gather Mods to make the gear you craft with that stuff better.

This necessitates that either trash monsters that are easy to kill drop tiny amounts of resources, or tough enemies drop large quantities of resources... and as they're also going for the Power Fantasy of being a space ninja with void powers, they've opted to go the trash monsters that are easy to kill drop tiny amounts of resources (which also keeps people playing longer, farming ingredients longer, etc, etc...) This drives the decisions in how they design the content (or should.) It is a fast paced game where you need to efficiently kill lots and lots and lots of enemies fast, to get the loot.

This is why their decision on universal vacuum was so weird to me, and made no sense to hold out so long for all sentinels and pets to be given such a mod. I still think it should be universal without a mod, given the type of game this is. There's no loot pressure to go grab something before a team mate gets it... all it does is remove slow-down tedium in a fast paced game. (the same line of reason I think Helios/Oxylus should scan plants for Silver Grove Keys, too, or they should be breakables to collect)

There is room in this equation for the bosses and special encounters (Zanuka, Stalker, Maniacs, etc) to be more on the "challenging" side of things, since you don't need more than the one blueprint. (this is one reason why getting all those Equinox parts from Tyl Regor is a much-maligned grind, since it's against a boss, not just trash enemies. And this could be fixed if they put Equinox on Vay Hek, granting day parts during the day, and night parts at night, splitting his loot pool in half, allowing for more targeted farming.)

 

Now, if they wanted to make a new set of Blueprints with tiny tiny ingredient requirements that only dropped from harder enemies, they could break the mold, while staying true to the core gameplay, ratio-wise, while increasing the "challenge", without as much of a shake-up in the rest of the game... trying to change the nature of the game from fast paced power fantasy to tactical. It would also benefit the game to put these enemies in higher level content, separated from normal star chart levels. To access said higher level content, I'd add a Level Selector to the start of each mission so you can intentionally start farming just those enemies from the start, without a long build-up in "endless" modes - which would allow all game modes to include these enemies, not just endless modes. (The New War's new sentient enemies might just fit the bill for this, and all nodes in the Origin System could have a "New War" version toggle that would then include Sentient enemies.) (PS on this, as much as challenge-hungry people who crave team-required gameplay may complain, there should be alternate, though slower, methods to obtain all these ingredients that do not require everyone to engage with this new "challenging, tactical" gameplay.)

I think it would be a gigantic mistake for DE to change the entire game from power fantasy to tactical... but as I said, there is room for optional tactical. As others have said, there are plenty of tactical shooters out there right now, like Destiny and CoD... if I wanted that, I'd play that... I want what Warframe offers, and it's a far cry from that junk. I want fun 🙂

 

Spoiler

 

For all the content I've encountered, I feel Waframe is in a good place, and is quite challenging. I generally play solo or with 1 friend. We've duo'd up to the Gantulyst, but my friend doesn't like Eidolon hunting (boring), so we haven't pushed for the Tridolon (no Volt or Unairu focus schools). We never do longer "endless" nodes past 30min, because my friend doesn't have the time for anything like that, and it's not rewarding to do so.

Maybe in groups of four, things are a lot easier, I dunno, and that's where a lot of this comes from? Duo'ing Arbitrations wasn't very easy, even with riven'd, forma'd, primed mods, dragonvault mods, weapons & Prime Frames. Disruption demolysts didn't go down in one shot and frequently got past us (until my friend and I got Magus Lockdown, which made that a bit better, but we don't see much fun in that mode, so we don't do it often - Gauss is not a frame either of us want.) Doesn't help that I have to play with the game muted so I can talk with my friend over chat, so whatever sound effect the demolysts have is a non-thing for me.

Neither of us have much done with Operators or arcanes & we could use better amps than 212's... so maybe that's where some of this overpoweredness is coming from? I just don't see it, and I've been playing for 2 years (closing on 620 login days) still plenty challenged by plenty of stuff in the game.

 

 

[Diavoros]

Sadly cannot add DIFFICULTY to anything that is relevant to game progression, because the community will cry their eyes out and force DE to dumb down whatever was difficult. Last example of that was NW challenge of 60 mins Taveuni without life support or 40 waves defense that had to be cut to half because was "impossible". For Arbitrations they added revival mechanic. It's a hopeful thought that Empyrean will bring any sort of rewarding challenge and difficulty because I can already see threads of people complaining just about possible "extensive resource requirements" for just making the dry dock and later, making the ship's parts and upgrading them. 
Also about the one-shooting anything depends on faction and level because past a certain threshold Grineer armor becomes a pain to deal with, thus people complain about armor scaling.
Main reason because the game lacks "endgame" is not on DE's fault, but is on the playerbase.

[White_Matter]

No matter what they do, they'll eventually have to bring down the nerf hammer hard along with the changes, and that'll upset a lot of metakids. But that is the only way.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2019-10-07 at 10:22 PM, Zilchy said:

Mate do you remember the devstream hydrocap 1x3 that took 40 minutes? I was praying that the Eidolon would fall through the map so they could experience the same bugs we do. She also died while showcasing the new Arbitrations mode, inside of 5 minutes into the mission. 

As for those debuffs lol, only the consistent nullifier field was irritating, the rest I didn't notice in my 8.5 hour run.

In the recent devstream they showed enemies up to level 250 in the simulacrum so it is possible but like I said they have no clue of the techniques we use to kill max level enemies so they can't combat it with their limited gaming knowledge and abilities. And most people aren't going to tell them how either since their kneejerk response to finding out about how players are doing such things is to blanket ban. 

It's as simple as providing a cosmetic/badge, special booster etc as a way of thanking Tenno for doing their playtesting for them. Give a soft release of the new content to the exploiters, theory crafters etc whatever you want to call us crowd and we'll find the bugs so that they can release an actual polished product for the first time in years.

I don't think they consider an 8.5 hour run as an opportunity to test any part of anything in the game. I wouldn't neither. That's extreme gaming and is not a valuable area to explore because very few players would go that route. Yes, endless modes exists but, if you're asking why the devs aren't addressing level 200+ scaling, it's because there's no point in allocating resources to heavily thought out, continuous, variable and player satisfying rewards for that when those same rewards could be applied to a more broadly accepted content release like Railjack or New War. In fact, there should be no rewards or adjustments for that type of marathon play until AFTER those two releases.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for raid modes and special endless mode achievements but I'd rather they focus on finally getting the sentient enemies on the field and THEN relax and start creating balanced enemy raids and endless stuff. 

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

18 hours ago, Zilchy said:

Where do I start... 

Firstly I've almost since release and I can tell you the game has gotten progressively easier over the years, not because I got better, because of power creep. DE has no idea of some of the synergies that currently exist for being able to play a mission endless and trivialize all content, if they playtested things properly they could make new content engaging and challenging but since they themselves lack the game knowledge and they refuse to use players who do possess it, this will never happen.

First off, don't call me entitled please, I'm not. I'm simply a player who yearns for more challenge in what was once a great game. It's not hard to see they just constantly churn out new weapons with very little thought process behind their design, many either resemble an already existing weapon or are simply not well balanced. Personally for nightwave rank 30? It should be something like arcane energize, or perhaps a new weapon, something that everyone can use. Even a veteran can just sell the arcane for plat.

We have too many mods, far too much power creep and in it's current state, warframe cannot be balanced. Rivens were a huge error and adding an exilus slot to weapons is just going to exacerbate this error.

Let's explore that new content, take the event. Basically every way players found to do it was considered an exploit therefore players were pigeon holed into how DE wanted us to do it. Creativity and variation is discouraged by their actions. Most of their new content is geared at adding more stuff they can sell you (it is a business ofc) but they have allowed this to become their primary focus over the last 2 years snd that's not healthy. More and more old players are leaving, the market is constantly updated with more things to spend your plat on etc. This is aimed at new players who join the game and buy all the shinies after whipping out their credit card, this is now their main aim. If you can't see that then maybe you'll figure it out in due time.

Lastly I didn't dare them, I simply stated they will never do such a thing and explained why. I find it funny how people call this insulting DE, being entitled etc. Everyday I deal with dissatisfied clients, if someone is not happy with a product that they are invested in they have the right to voice their opinion. Just look at all the abandoned content currently in the game that they don't bother fixing or revisiting. Karma choice during War Within, Lunaro, Conclave, Raids removed and said they'd look at reintroducing them, Eidolons broken as hell, How's that 3rd Orb Vallis Spider going?... aaannd many more.

Sorry mate, wasn't calling you entitled directly but it is a bit weird that two multi year (5 years for me) players are discussing "once a great game" as if we haven't received maximum value from this product. A product, by the way, that is still growing.

We've mastered the arts, experimented with hundreds of mods, learned the weapons, mastered the stances per melee weapon type, learned the enemy weaknesses, rallied as gamers to learn the trick to the Eidolon fight, etc. DE has rewarded us quite a bit and has the best modular reward system in gaming. Despite that, I find it strange to sit here, after years upon years of playing, and see vets speak as if they weren't and aren't rewarded for the gameplay. The game is in World of Warcraft territory when it comes to a massive experience and value.

That said, I do understand you want it to be even better, so do I. The difference we have is in what we see from DE. They're transparent, open to feedback, applies the feedback as seen with the latest reworks, attempted many times to add endgame elements and I also know how they schedule updates with two mainline updates, two mid-grade updates and monthly small changes or cosmetic/weapon releases per year., which is on par or more than AAA games. The recent thread on conclave looked more like the players stopped playing rather than DE abandoning it. Same with Lunaro. Simply speaking, I can't just decide, years later and after I've enjoyed my journey and experience, that the product suddenly sucks because my 2019 self has mastered a 2012 game.

[844448]

On 2019-10-09 at 11:49 AM, Zilchy said:

Karma choice during War Within

Honestly, if this gets implemented seriously, we might obtain or lose some of the content that related to it. For example, if we turns out getting Myconian as a faction for infested open world, what will happen to those who cure or let Neewa decide? As far as I remember these choices lead to Myconian giving up their way of life for a new one, means those who choose other than sending her back doesn't have access to these people?

On 2019-10-09 at 11:49 AM, Zilchy said:

Eidolons broken as hell

Which part of eidolon is broken as hell? I've run eidolon many times and I don't have anything broken so what part of it is broken on your side?

On 2019-10-09 at 11:49 AM, Zilchy said:

How's that 3rd Orb Vallis Spider going?

Heard that it's going to be combination of Profit-Taker and Exploiter, and I submitted a concept that involves railjack, squad link, and submersible archwing on top of that so you will have a phase fighting the orb in the coolant with heavy team coordination to do it with railjack squad, good thing if I'm not getting crucified for that

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

Honestly, if this gets implemented seriously, we might obtain or lose some of the content that related to it. For example, if we turns out getting Myconian as a faction for infested open world, what will happen to those who cure or let Neewa decide? As far as I remember these choices lead to Myconian giving up their way of life for a new one, means those who choose other than sending her back doesn't have access to these people?

So they should implement things they have no intention of actually finishing? 

Why do it in the first place then? 

[844448]

6 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So they should implement things they have no intention of actually finishing? 

Why do it in the first place then? 

There's a saying that it gives "the illusion of free choice", no idea who said that but having this gives you the feeling of being able to decide your own path, when they will have the same result. While I disagree with this, I don't think this doesn't have any purpose.

Also, if the we don't have this, people might complain "the story is too linear" and "has no personality"

[0_The_F00l]

Just now, 844448 said:

There's a saying that it gives "the illusion of free choice", no idea who said that but having this gives you the feeling of being able to decide your own path, when they will have the same result. While I disagree with this, I don't think this doesn't have any purpose.

Also, if the we don't have this, people might complain "the story is too linear" and "has no personality"

The story is linear, even with the pseudo choices, but it has more than enough personality, I don't think anyone has a problem with that. 

 

You also haven't answered my question, should they implement things they have no intention of finishing? 

[844448]

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

The story is linear, even with the pseudo choices, but it has more than enough personality, I don't think anyone has a problem with that. 

 

You also haven't answered my question, should they implement things they have no intention of finishing? 

I like this choices for story quests, being able to watch my tenno blasting a hole to grineer queen or seeing teshin decapitating her is satisfying to see at instead of only seeing one

Should they? Yes and no actually. Warframe feels unique because they have many things that other games don't want to implement for many excuses. About finishing things they implemented? Sometimes I'm wondering if the players really have any shred of idea or know what DE will do on finishing things they implemented. I simply enjoy the game and let DE decide what they want to do, and put my view on things they add with suggestions instead of saying "they should finish things ASAP" and start babbling they don't have any intention to finish anything

[0_The_F00l]

51 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Should they? Yes and no actually. Warframe feels unique because they have many things that other games don't want to implement for many excuses. About finishing things they implemented? Sometimes I'm wondering if the players really have any shred of idea or know what DE will do on finishing things they implemented. I simply enjoy the game and let DE decide what they want to do, and put my view on things they add with suggestions instead of saying "they should finish things ASAP" and start babbling they don't have any intention to finish anything

What an absolute cop out answer.

When a simple yes or no would have sufficed you go out questioning the effects of providing finished things,

Disappointing. 

I personally would like them to implement things and actually keep adding to it until it can be considered finished. 

And "please finish things that you have left incomplete" is just as valid a suggestion as anything else. 

What makes your suggestions worth more than anybody else's? 

[844448]

11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What an absolute cop out answer.

When a simple yes or no would have sufficed you go out questioning the effects of providing finished things,

Disappointing. 

I personally would like them to implement things and actually keep adding to it until it can be considered finished. 

And "please finish things that you have left incomplete" is just as valid a suggestion as anything else. 

What makes your suggestions worth more than anybody else's? 

Have you considered what might happen if they actually finish things? Also what do you consider as finished? For me, it's their game and they can add whatever they want

So, yes

[0_The_F00l]

13 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Have you considered what might happen if they actually finish things? Also what do you consider as finished? For me, it's their game and they can add whatever they want

So, yes

That it would actually make sense with regards to why certain things exist in the first place? Gives closure? Provides a "ah that's why" revelation? 

 

This is indeed DE's game. 

 

And I as a consumer have the right to voice my opinions on the state of things as they exist. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I don't think they consider an 8.5 hour run as an opportunity to test any part of anything in the game. I wouldn't neither. That's extreme gaming and is not a valuable area to explore because very few players would go that route. Yes, endless modes exists but, if you're asking why the devs aren't addressing level 200+ scaling, it's because there's no point in allocating resources to heavily thought out, continuous, variable and player satisfying rewards for that when those same rewards could be applied to a more broadly accepted content release like Railjack or New War. In fact, there should be no rewards or adjustments for that type of marathon play until AFTER those two releases.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for raid modes and special endless mode achievements but I'd rather they focus on finally getting the sentient enemies on the field and THEN relax and start creating balanced enemy raids and endless stuff. 

 

I'm not asking them to sit there for 8.5 hours though, I'm asking that they simply test it in the simulacrum, if they're spawning in level 200 enemies, surely they can also spawn a max level demolyst and see that it's health is bugged. This would be better than calling it an exploit to be killing them at that level and wiping the scores of players who did(and who played for a very long time to achieve that).

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 hours ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

Sorry mate, wasn't calling you entitled directly but it is a bit weird that two multi year (5 years for me) players are discussing "once a great game" as if we haven't received maximum value from this product. A product, by the way, that is still growing.

We've mastered the arts, experimented with hundreds of mods, learned the weapons, mastered the stances per melee weapon type, learned the enemy weaknesses, rallied as gamers to learn the trick to the Eidolon fight, etc. DE has rewarded us quite a bit and has the best modular reward system in gaming. Despite that, I find it strange to sit here, after years upon years of playing, and see vets speak as if they weren't and aren't rewarded for the gameplay. The game is in World of Warcraft territory when it comes to a massive experience and value.

That said, I do understand you want it to be even better, so do I. The difference we have is in what we see from DE. They're transparent, open to feedback, applies the feedback as seen with the latest reworks, attempted many times to add endgame elements and I also know how they schedule updates with two mainline updates, two mid-grade updates and monthly small changes or cosmetic/weapon releases per year., which is on par or more than AAA games. The recent thread on conclave looked more like the players stopped playing rather than DE abandoning it. Same with Lunaro. Simply speaking, I can't just decide, years later and after I've enjoyed my journey and experience, that the product suddenly sucks because my 2019 self has mastered a 2012 game.

On the first bit, all good, text can be misleading.

I just think that things like Rivens for example should've been handled differently. They are straight up power creep, no question about it. What they SHOULD have done, is added a riven slot to all weapons HOWEVER, remove possible rolls that increase damage ie no Crit chance, no crit dmg, multishot etc. So why am I using this still you ask? Because we could add in rolls that PERSONALIZE a weapon for the owner. For example, I might have one that has a 30% chance to make me invisible for 5 seconds on a headshot, or one that alters the firing pattern of some weapons, ie triple burst grenade launcher. Or maybe something that allows for longer bullet jumps hence a parkour angle, in short, allowing you to customise a weapon specifically to your personal taste. Instead of just adding more power creep. It started with corrupted mods, moved on to primed mods, then acolyte mods ie maiming strike, then exilus, then rivens. And now we're gonna increase it again. Nothing in the game needs to be kill 1000% over what it needs to die. By the time that enemies resist such ridiculous creep, we're all using abilities anyway, I rarely take any primary but a miter if I'm going to do a mission length of more than a few hours because my primary will be insignificant later on and I'm better off bringing something to deal with nullifiers. 

While I agree that they're open to feedback, they ignore 99% of it from what I've seen over the years. It's not just the mastering of the game, it's the lack of events compared to the past and in the one event they did bring, they policed it so heavily they turned it into a joke. Events in the old days were an excuse for the competitive element to punch on, to go at it for a week using any dirty tactic they could find to beat their opposition. But that's all changed, it's become hand holding to the extreme, like that sports day back in primary school where "everybody wins a prize". The challenging aspect of the game is completely dead and that's what disappoints me.

[844448]

15 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

I just think that things like Rivens for example should've been handled differently.

I think I have an idea for that. Make the riven acts like "multiple mods in one package" works with no duplicate system so you can't stack +damage rifle riven with serration as an example

[SneakyErvin]

On 2019-10-09 at 8:20 AM, Aldain said:

Could not be more true.

I swear that 11.28% is just a big fat lie, 3 weeks of going to 8 squads multiple times every 2-3 days and I didn't even get one Enduring Strike.

I actually had 24 of one of the relics (I think it was a Z type) by the time I gave up, 24 of one, specific, relic.

And that is my non-sequitur of why of all things in Warframe I hate Defection with a violent bloody passion. /venting

My luck is famously bad with RNG anything, hek, it took me 4 days just to get some normal Ember systems to drop.

RNG is always RNG, making things look worse than they really are.

When Hildryn got released I expected a long grind to get her components and hopefully a shocking step BP. I even thought RNGsus would punish me even more since at that point in time I had also just started with BDO for a second time so wanted to play that as much as possible. Well 3 exploiter runs later I sat there with all 3 components and the shocking step BP. Lootcifer successfully vanquished RNGsus!