Upcoming Exilus slots for weapons. what do you think?

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

11 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

 

Ummmmmm, well that's pretty underwhelming.

The amount of unranked mods in there says it all!

[Thundervision]

Meta this, meta that... You're fighting or trying to fight the mentality which is quite different from the tools you have at your disposal. Don't be like meta-lovers - play the way you want to and don't look at them. Try to minimize whatever YOU don't like about YOUR weapon. And screw the ones that come and «hurr durr your build is lame, this is how you should build it».

The only real meta for weapons are Vigilante multishot and PT mods. And even the PT ones come at price: lowering damage output/ammo efficiency to be able to hit several targets at once.

Serration, Split Chamber and 60/60 (yeah, how about we get a 90% Status mod as an Elemental counterpart, DE?) or crit mods for Status/crit guns are simply mandatory. Though Rivens mods can help ditching those if you're lucky...

 

The only Exilus mods that will be allowed to be used in the slot should be:

• Accuracy mods
• Ammo Mutators
• Ammo capacity mods
• Cautious Shot
• Conclave-PvE mods
• Delayed triggers mods (Adhesive Blast)
• Holster rate mods
• Projectile speed mods
• Reload rate
• Status Duration
• Suppressors
• Zoom level

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• Recoil is debatable, since it's pretty much malleable with one's mouse/macros/controller anyway.

/////////////////////////

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Thundervision

[Tsukinoki]

19 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

If you're actually just linking these possibilities together in order to say "dps mods in this slot is bad", then disregard what I said about punch through and fire rate.

Reason I bring it up is because of what happened between how DE initially talked about exilus slots for frames (being utility mods only) and how they turned into having mods that affect power related stats directly (pretty much analogous to DPS increasing mods for weapons).

Initial exilus mods for warframes were about utility mods, such as Movement Speed, opening lockers, radars, etc.
But then they went "How about we add mods that increase power strength, range, energy maximum, etc...." and now those are pretty much the only mods people put in with very few exceptions.  I mean how many builds use Coaction Drift vs any actual utility mod.

From DEs past performance with exilus on frames (which started out only showing the pure utility mods) and how it translated into just another power-creep slot I just see exilus on weapons going very much the same way.
Especially since your example shows a reload mod right there.  And for the Tigris?  A free 30% faster reload is a sizable increase to DPS right there...

Again the top three mods that will beat out pretty much anything else if they are allowed in:
-Fire Rate
-Reload
-Punch-Through
And a trailing fourth would be magazine capacity for some weapons (since they can increase sustained DPS like reload speed does and are roughly equivalent).

A secondary reason I bring up those mods as examples is that in the past on the forums whenever anyone talked about having such a slot the top three mods that they  stated that they wanted to go into the slot: Fire rate, reload speed, punch-through, with very little talk about any other mod.
So with how the community wants to use the slot, as well as DEs past experiences with the exilus slot on frames, I'm just not hopeful that those mods won't stay out of the exilus slot for long.

19 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

Would this count as the same as flight speed for shotguns?

Maybe?
Overall beam weapons are generally a weaker weapon type and the only thing a range extender does is make it so that you save half a second moving into the range where you go from zero damage to actually hurting something.

It doesn't really increase DPS all that much...and beam-weapons need help.

Further its a lot harder to argue that extended beam range is better than reloading while holstered, or faster weapon swapping, or a lot of the other examples.
Meanwhile extending the fall-off on shotgun weapons?  Yeah that.s a bit bigger of an impact than faster weapon swapping....

And I think that the mod scene should try to move in the direction where its harder to argue something is just better and instead you go "Well this is better in this case....but what about this other situation?"

Edited October 8, 2019 by Tsukinoki

[dwqrf]

il y a 22 minutes, Madway7 a dit :

Tactical Pump and Ammo stock can be a strong increase of dps (thinking of Exergis...)

[Walkampf]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Ozymandias-13-:

It would make more sense to leave out the exilus slot and give us a way to incorporate the mandatory mods into the inherent weapon stats somehow. Like make a cheaper Serration built into the weapon that we level per weapon. 

I disagree.

Just giving us a normal slot whould only further the powercreep and warframes scaling problems even further.

I stand by my opinion, the best way DE could have taken, whould have been drastiaclly reducing the effect of mandatory mods.

My personal idea whould be decreasing the maximum ranks of Mandatory mods to  maybe 5 ranks. This whouldn't effect new players, sicne they don't have the endo and credits to max Hornetstrike and serration anyway. This whould result in enemies being generally more challenging for long time players, which whould in return force players to fight low-level enemies and whould prevent most players from fighting Lvl100+ enemies. Since I tinhk that 100 is the enemy level, where Warframes auto-scaling goes completly nuts in regards of one-shotting players and armor-values.

[Thundervision]

14 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

and beam-weapons need help.

To be fair, it's a matter of removing just one particular mechanic which DE shoehorned right after they unscrewed continuous weapons and thought it was a brilliant balancing move (it wasn't😞

Quote

22.13.3

• Perfect accuracy and high fire rate is balanced by limited range and damage ramping up from 10% to 100% over 0.8 seconds when firing and decays back to 10% over 1 second after stopping.

22.13.4

• Increased the Beam weapon Damage ramp up time from 0.8 to 1 second.

22.14

• Damage now ramps up over 0.6 seconds and after moving off target there is a delay of 0.8 seconds before it starts to decay over 2 seconds.
• All Beam weapons now start their Damage ramp up at 20% (instead of 10%).

edit: think, some of these could be weapon-specific, but ramp up mechanic did screw continuous weapons once again.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Thundervision

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

Hmmmmm, wonder what negatives everyone's gonna be after on their rivens now. 

Honestly, a mod slot to counter certain negatives on rivens seems like a pretty stupid idea.

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)drpunk-yo:

Hmmmmm, wonder what negatives everyone's gonna be after on their rivens now. 

Honestly, a mod slot to counter certain negatives on rivens seems like a pretty stupid idea.

90% (at least) are going for -Zoom, since this is, for many people, actually considered a buff, especially on certain sniper rifles.

So, the +Zoom exilus mods will hardly be used because of rivens.

[Tsukinoki]

3 minutes ago, Thundervision said:

To be fair, it's a matter of removing just one particular mechanic which DE shoehorned right after they unscrewed continuous weapons and thought it was a brilliant balancing move (it wasn't😞

For the majority of beam weapons I agree.
For weapons like the Ignis and its wraith counterpart?  It at least slows it down even though it doesn't stop it from being extremely powerful.

Making ramp up more weapon specific wouldn't be a terrible thing and would be another balancing knob that DE can use.

And I'm perfectly willing to drop range extension as a possible mod for the new exilus slot, it was just an example that I am actually on the fence about, but my general point/ideas still stand for what should be considered for the slot.

But with reload and mag size mods already being included in the devstream...I'm not too hopeful honestly.

[Graavarg]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

So despite having an additional mod slot, there will still be only one META-build.

Yes, but that is applicable only to the bovine boneheads slavishly following META-advice.

Basically all META-builds are already powerful enough (and there is a lot of them), so for the totally META-fixated this will mostly be meaningless.

But for those Tennos modding weapons all kinds of ways due to personal preference (instead of META) this will be quite meaningful. The ability to silence your sniper without breaking your build is a big QoL improvement (for me at least). So is stabilizing otherwise almost unusable guns, and adding anti-selfdamage mods to otherwise suicidal weapons. And adding zoom level (still hoping for mod that would put a "sniper-like" scope on other weapons).

I am going to have a lot of fun with this, as long as I can get the exilus adapters without straight-out paying plat for them (Arbiters of Hexis, looking at your arbitration shop).

Edited October 8, 2019 by Graavarg

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

10 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

90% (at least) are going for -Zoom, since this is, for many people, actually considered a buff, especially on certain sniper rifles.

So, the +Zoom exilus mods will hardly be used because of rivens.

Negative zoom will never lose it's appeal, but this slot makes negative reload and negative magazine capacity much more viable when you can use the exilus slot to counter it.

While I appreciate peoples' optimism I can't help feel this will be how the slot will be utilised the most. ESPECIALLY given the assumed investment this slot will require.

[Frenotx]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

In the end, there will be one best-in-slot mod for each weapon.

So despite having an additional mod slot, there will still be only one META-build.

 

It's a band aid fix to make less appealing mods find space in abuild.

The correct way for DE whould be to nerf madatory mods.

But DE rarely does any nerfing, since a very vocal part of the Warframe community is pretty serious about their E-pen!s.

Instead of nerfing mandatory mods, I'd rather see DE just REMOVE them, and bake their stats into weapons. They could make those stats come along with weapon rank, so leveling up the weapon does more than just increase its mod capacity.

[Tsukinoki]

Just now, Frenotx said:

They could make those stats come along with weapon rank, so leveling up the weapon does more than just increase its mod capacity.

I've seen this argument so many times...and I'm on the fence about it.

On one hand you have weapons getting stronger as it levels, which feels good for progression.
On the other hand it means that you can't just jump into higher level/more entertaining gameplay and just use it.

After all with the current system I can just slap damage mods onto a weapon, go to a fun mission at the higher levels and use it immediately.  With the system oft-times proposed that just wouldn't be viable.  If I actually want to use the weapon instead of just passively leveling it I would be stuck running much lower level missions...which would just be tedious.

I can see the pros of such a system, but I also worry about the cons...

I mean when a new weapon comes out I like putting mods into it and immediately going to where I'm going to spending a lot of my time to just test it...and I wouldn't find it too entertaining to go "Well, I could be running a hijack mission at higher levels...but nope, I'm stuck on an exterminate mission on Mars instead because it doesn't have the damage at low ranks..."

[BaIthazar]

I love it, don't have to gimp my build to make my guns silent anymore.

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

The correct way for DE whould be to nerf madatory mods.

 

By nerfing mandatory mods you actually increase the need for a tight meta for guns to be useful

Edited October 8, 2019 by BaIthazar

[BaIthazar]

-empty-

Edited October 8, 2019 by BaIthazar

[Dragazer]

3 hours ago, Walkampf said:

In the end, there will be one best-in-slot mod for each weapon.

So despite having an additional mod slot, there will still be only one META-build.

 

It's a band aid fix to make less appealing mods find space in abuild.

The correct way for DE whould be to nerf madatory mods.

But DE rarely does any nerfing, since a very vocal part of the Warframe community is pretty serious about their E-pen!s.

Theres always going to be a meta build. you cant stop players from trying to find the most efficient ways of doing something. Simplest example would be when DE nerfed draco for exp in hopes players would move out in other areas of the star chart. Did that work? Nope not one bit, ppl just flocked to Hydron afterwards for exp which put them back at square one.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Dragazer

[Ikyr0]

More senseless design, more power creep. Not good.

[Tsukinoki]

10 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Theres always going to be a meta build. you cant stop players from trying to find the most efficient ways of doing something. Simplest example would be when DE nerfed draco for exp in hopes players would move out in other areas of the star chart. Did that work? Nope not one bit, ppl just flocked to Hydron afterwards for exp which put them back at square one.

While that may be true DE could still take steps to avoid the problem with the weapon exilus slot.
After all its hard to argue which is better: Faster holstering, faster movement while adsing, or reloading while holstered (over 5 seconds so its not particularly fast).  Depends largely on play-style and how you want the weapon to feel.

So if DE actually kept it to utility mods and avoided the DPS increasers (even the soft-dps increaers) it won't be too bad and will actually have some variety (after all some people handle recoil just fine without a mod, other people would want recoil reduction, still others would value ammo mutation, etc).  And everyone knows that we are seriously lacking any actual variety or choices in our build options.

As to your example with the Draco Nerf: DE honestly didn't go far enough.
They nerfed one area (similar to how they handled Viver) and yet didn't make anything else useful so of course people just moved to the next best option.
If DE had actually made affinity gains from normal missions increase while limiting all endless missions to some extent then they might have actually gotten closer to their goal.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Tsukinoki

[Renegade343]

3 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

prisma grakata insane recoil -->fixed with stabilizer less dps but huge increase of usability

Well, if Grakata's recoil is considered insane, think of other weapons like Latron or Kraken.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

i think it's perfect news

i can finally put sharshooter on my snipers while also being able to put that heat mod

unless sharshooter won't be an excilus then...damn it DE!

[Frenotx]

50 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

I've seen this argument so many times...and I'm on the fence about it.

On one hand you have weapons getting stronger as it levels, which feels good for progression.
On the other hand it means that you can't just jump into higher level/more entertaining gameplay and just use it.

After all with the current system I can just slap damage mods onto a weapon, go to a fun mission at the higher levels and use it immediately.  With the system oft-times proposed that just wouldn't be viable.  If I actually want to use the weapon instead of just passively leveling it I would be stuck running much lower level missions...which would just be tedious.

I can see the pros of such a system, but I also worry about the cons...

I mean when a new weapon comes out I like putting mods into it and immediately going to where I'm going to spending a lot of my time to just test it...and I wouldn't find it too entertaining to go "Well, I could be running a hijack mission at higher levels...but nope, I'm stuck on an exterminate mission on Mars instead because it doesn't have the damage at low ranks..."

Assuming the minimum power levels of the weapon were affected by mastery rank like mod capacity is, I don't see why this would be a problem. If you're high enough mastery rank where you can drop a max-ranked serration on a brand new weapon, then that weapon would be starting out well into its progression to maximum base stats. Considering it's several mandatory mods that are baked in (not just serration) AND you can put some utility mods on it, it should be able to compete pretty favorably to a vanilla weapon with only serration on it

[Tricky5hift]

Gonna be nice being able to put Hush on snipers without taking up a mod slot.

[Tsukinoki]

Just now, Frenotx said:

Assuming the minimum power levels of the weapon were affected by mastery rank like mod capacity is, I don't see why this would be a problem. If you're high enough mastery rank where you can drop a max-ranked serration on a brand new weapon, then that weapon would be starting out well into its progression to maximum base stats. Considering it's several mandatory mods that are baked in (not just serration) AND you can put some utility mods on it, it should be able to compete pretty favorably to a vanilla weapon with only serration on it

True...hadn't considered that angle of MR affecting it, in which case I can see how it wouldn't be so bad.  But that's an if, and not one people have brought up very much.

Also depends on what other balance changes to the game it would come with...because just having such a change come on its own would be disappointing to say the least.

[0_The_F00l]

I think its a bad idea for a good intention.

It is also difficult to identify pure Utility mods,

Reload speed , magazine capacity, fire rate add to the overall DPS directly,

Status duration , Punchthrough adds to DPS indirectly,

Ammo Mutation , Recoil , holster speed, zoom , accuracy, silence, beam range and projectile speed are pretty much the only pure utility mods and more than a 3rd are useless on most weapons and don't actually add any utility.

Then there are the set mods , i run some of them just for the bonus, where would you classify those?

And then there are the augments and uniques like sticky grenade and explosive projectile - where do you put those?

 

Sure the mod capacity situation on weapons is not as bad as on frames , but its not so great either.

Those primed and umbral mods were one of the worst short sighted decisions form balancing perspective.

this might seem like a bandaid , but i do not think it will change much.

 

I can of course think of a few niche weapon uses , but i can use to niches even now.

[Renegade343]

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Reload speed , magazine capacity, fire rate add to the overall DPS directly,

How would you classify reloading while holstered then?

4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Then there are the set mods , i run some of them just for the bonus, where would you classify those?

As long as the set effect and the mod effect do not increase DPS directly or indirectly, it should be fine for Exilus.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Renegade343