Why is there a need for an operator when the warframe is alive?

[taiiat]

do you mean In universe? or in the game?

because in the actual game, it exists to make the game ""more friendly and appealing"" to a specific age demographic.

5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

This was explained during The Sacrifice quest, both why the frames possess no sentience of their own, and why the umbra is the only exception.

the game is ofcourse contradictory with itself, as Warframes have acted without direction from the puppeteer in the past, which could be known for sure because in universe spacekid was under the mental impression that the Warframe was dead and yet it functioned anyways.
just as someone would not try to have a conversation with someone who had been drugged as to appear dead (no detectable heartbeat or breathing, Et Cetera), if spacekid thought the Warframe was 'dead', it would not have attempted to control it. so it had to act on its own.

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Umbra demonstrates Warframes have no innate void association. He's been disconnected from Tenno for Millenia - possibly never had a transference partner. Yet he can use his powers just fine.

As I said umbra is an exception / borderline case we don't know the "full" extent of the experiments performed on him. 

We only see him using his abilities after we rebuild him - a link may already have been formed at that very moment. 

 

I do agree with the rest of your narrative though. 

[Loza03]

27 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

As I said umbra is an exception / borderline case we don't know the "full" extent of the experiments performed on him. 

We only see him using his abilities after we rebuild him - a link may already have been formed at that very moment. 

His iconic 'howl all you want' scene depicts him not only using his signature Radial Howl, but also his Exalted Umbra Blade for a Slash Dash. This was pre-rebuilding him since this is the scene he's destroyed in.

In terms of other experiments, it's true we don't know, but there aren't all that many implied. Sure, he has special polarities but really not much else.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Loza03

[Zyga21]

1. what

2. what

3. lmao what

 

this thread became a mess, and it's weird how people are acting like the operators exist to appeal to teens. mesa's butt is there to appeal to teens, the operators are here for the convoluted story.

also, warframes are death machines and or lifeless husks, they need operators to either subdue them or to bring them (back) to life. It's a (sort of) a symbiotic thing. Not all warframes are Umbra, this isn't that hard to understand that they're two different things.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Zyga21

[(PSN)Silverback73]

10 hours ago, VoidGhost said:

Hi,I would like to ask the Warframe community why is there a need for an operator when the mutated person which we call the warframe is alive.Why cant we take the role of the mutated person also called warframe and explore related lore?,lore about his past or even lore related to becoming human again or even control the mutation and call it with his/her will.A great example is in the following link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZx_Dll6G18  where the Guyver(the Guver is a symbiotic techno-organic device that that can transform it's host to a being with super abilities like a warframe)tranformation is shown

 

 

Thanks for reading and for giving me the oportunity to contribute to the game

Because your 3 choices without are the Rhino Codex raging bloodbath, a labotimized meat puppet without strings, or something that becomes best buddies with Lephantis.

 

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

57 minutes ago, Zyga21 said:

this thread became a mess, and it's weird how people are acting like the operators exist to appeal to teens. mesa's butt is there to appeal to teens, the operators are here for the convoluted story.

They can be both. I doubt anyone over the age of 21 would be thrilled about learning they were actually a slow tiny waif with ambiguous superpowers instead of a high-tech mysterious space ninja murder machine. I know I wasn't.

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

His iconic 'howl all you want' scene depicts him not only using his signature Radial Howl, but also his Exalted Umbra Blade for a Slash Dash. This was pre-rebuilding him since this is the scene he's destroyed in.

In terms of other experiments, it's true we don't know, but there aren't all that many implied. Sure, he has special polarities but really not much else.

It's kinda an point open for discussion, how much of the frame abilities are innate to the skills of the original human base, how much is an attribute of the void and how much is more of an amplification? 

Howling and slash dash are physical acts in essence, in my opinion more of a beast response and Dax skill. 

[Atsia]

12 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's kinda an point open for discussion, how much of the frame abilities are innate to the skills of the original human base, how much is an attribute of the void and how much is more of an amplification? 

Howling and slash dash are physical acts in essence, in my opinion more of a beast response and Dax skill. 

He was still able to summon and use his exalted blade. No matter what, frames don't need operators to use their powers.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 hour ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

They can be both. I doubt anyone over the age of 21 would be thrilled about learning they were actually a slow tiny waif with ambiguous superpowers instead of a high-tech mysterious space ninja murder machine. I know I wasn't.

I was. The Op/frame synergy is awesome and I love focus farming to make them both stronger.

 

The game turned the basic theme in other games where you're just an empty war machine and actually made it way more in depth.

[PsiWarp]

I mean after the Duviri Paradox they might explore the origins of the Warframes. Have the Helminth Infirmary reverse the Infestation, find the original Dax's lost memories, and create a replica of the Dax who becomes a Specter ally of yours to go on missions, man your Railjack, and more.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Atsia said:

He was still able to summon and use his exalted blade. No matter what, frames don't need operators to use their powers.

Since we only have one frame (which itself is an exception to many of the rules) that can function without an operator it is too early to say this definitely. 

[Aldain]

Oh yeah, anyone remember that part at the end of the second dream where our Warframe broke the War without our transference?

I just remembered that a bit ago, was there ever an explanation for that or was it just for dramatic effect?

[Firetempest]

50 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Oh yeah, anyone remember that part at the end of the second dream where our Warframe broke the War without our transference?

I just remembered that a bit ago, was there ever an explanation for that or was it just for dramatic effect?

Its a lead-in to the war within. It was the repressed power to control the frame without the chair. Brought on by instinct otherwise they would have been killed.

[Pavelord]

46 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Since we only have one frame (which itself is an exception to many of the rules) that can function without an operator it is too early to say this definitely. 

I would thinkg there are several instances that prove his statement, we have infested Mesa and Chroma, the Stalker and his acolytes could arguably be frames without master and we even have Inaros´tomb guardian.

We have the discrepancy with void powers and warframe powers, did the void give the power of Ash´s hidden blades or Vauban´s grenades. Not to mentions other enemies can replicate those same powers like teleportation, corpus throwing bounce balls, Ruk´s fire ball and even Teshin does Frost ice attack. We also have the construction materials, like Zephyr that is build using an special lost orokin alloy that is lighter that air or Hydroid using argon crystals that is a unstable material that break is physical form like Hydroid turns to water, and those have nothing to do with whatever human specimen could provide.

 I´d say that Warframe powers are clearly orokin technology, the role of the tenno is as Ballas mentions to be able to control the otherwise unruly frames, combing all 5 dimensions of strenght (infested flesh, grineer armor, corpus shield, sentient adaptability and void energy) at the service of the orokin. Human specimens would only be the best genetic material they got to provide the best infested results, I don´t think the abilities of those affected had anything to do with the resulting frame power.

[Pavelord]

---

Edited October 10, 2019 by Pavelord
double post

[0_The_F00l]

41 minutes ago, Pavelord said:

I would thinkg there are several instances that prove his statement, we have infested Mesa and Chroma, the Stalker and his acolytes could arguably be frames without master and we even have Inaros´tomb guardian.

We have the discrepancy with void powers and warframe powers, did the void give the power of Ash´s hidden blades or Vauban´s grenades. Not to mentions other enemies can replicate those same powers like teleportation, corpus throwing bounce balls, Ruk´s fire ball and even Teshin does Frost ice attack. We also have the construction materials, like Zephyr that is build using an special lost orokin alloy that is lighter that air or Hydroid using argon crystals that is a unstable material that break is physical form like Hydroid turns to water, and those have nothing to do with whatever human specimen could provide.

 I´d say that Warframe powers are clearly orokin technology, the role of the tenno is as Ballas mentions to be able to control the otherwise unruly frames, combing all 5 dimensions of strenght (infested flesh, grineer armor, corpus shield, sentient adaptability and void energy) at the service of the orokin. Human specimens would only be the best genetic material they got to provide the best infested results, I don´t think the abilities of those affected had anything to do with the resulting frame power.

That is why I mentioned it is a point that is open for discussion it can be argued from multiple fronts. Whether abilities are innate to the frame (or the infestation) , a void manifestation or the amplification of existing skills copied from the "best and brightest" genetic base or a mix of all of it, or something else entirely. 

I am personally of the opinion that the tenno (and by extension the void) amplify the existing skills of the frames and the Orokin thought it would be cool to add more stuff to it (yes the Orokin did not always think logically) hence the more weird abilities. The more adept they got at the void + infested manipulation the more extravagant and outlandish they made the abilities. 

Case in point Excalibur, Vauban, Ash is almost entirely martial in nature in the sense of a proper "super soldier" with amplified skills while limbo, Nova, is more of a god with pure dependence on void energy. 

The innate skills are still better than human class but having access to void energy changes them in significant ways (just like being corrupted during fissure runs) while the God class ones woul be pretty useless without void energy. 

 

You may have forgotten the specters, they too would technically be frames without intent. 

Chroma and Mesa (even Inaros) are good examples I agree, but I do not recollect them using their abilities, I may have forgotten or it may be an addition after I finished the quest. I may be wrong on that front though. 

 

The stalker and acolytes are more along the lines of dark Tenno than sentient (not the faction) frames I believe. Also a point that is open for discussion as it is not clear what they are (the end of the second dream does shine some light but not enough) 

Also I don't think the frames have any sentient (the faction) components as far as I am aware, Grineer armor is a concept after the fall of orokin and corpus are more like remnant orokin traders neither of them existed as factions during the fall. 

[Corvid]

59 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also I don't think the frames have any sentient (the faction) components as far as I am aware

Not innately, though Exilus Adapters indicate that there is some degree of cross-compatibility there.

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

w/o the operator we would be 40 different frame characters at once not to mention future warframes if anything at the very least operators give us our sense of self in the story. well for me operators or games with character customization let me make a unique character I created into the story.

Edited October 10, 2019 by (XB1)Dex Xean

[0_The_F00l]

35 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Not innately, though Exilus Adapters indicate that there is some degree of cross-compatibility there.

Other than the appearance, I don't see how. 

[ColPresumptuous]

13 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Um... dogs on average have almost twice as many neurons as cats. More neurons means more memories and more processing power, for lack of a better term. For comparison, that's about as many as Racoons, which are famously pretty bright.

Source (and generally speaking much more detail):

  Reveal hidden contents

Jardim-Messeder, D., Lambert, K., Noctor, S., Pestana, F. M., de Castro Leal, M. E., Bertelsen, M. F., ... & Herculano-Houzel, S. (2017). Dogs have the most neurons, though not the largest brain: trade-off between body mass and number of neurons in the cerebral cortex of large carnivoran species. Frontiers in neuroanatomy, 11, 118.

So, uh... in general, dogs are smarter than cats, or certainly have the potential to be overall. Also consider how well dogs can learn things compared to cats.  I love my cats dearly, but they just behave like they're superior. Moving the litter tray made my kitten forget it ever existed.

Neuron Count is fairly pointless... its the shape of the brain that is pretty important and cats have a brain alot more like a humans than a dogs is, its why cats are (unfortunately) used alot in brain studies 😞. Also there are no 'smarter' animals really, just different ways of thinking or approaching life, moving your litter tray made your Kitten (and that is the key word here, Kitten) forget the litter tray, wasnt because it wasnt smart, it more than likely took the LOCATION of the tray as the place to poop, not the object of the tray as the place to poop... a cat will tend to have specific locations it classes as a latrine in its territory and it will use those places even if there is no tray there since its not the tray its using as a marker, but the place its being allowed to poop. Some cats use a different system though and will look for the tray to poop in instead of a location.., my own cats one or two will use a tray if they find it and need it while one of ours will ONLY poop under the piano and will actively avoid using a tray that is placed there and poop next to it... animals (as are humans) are quirky things, all individual, each with their sense of self and ways of doing things.

There is a species of spider hunting spider that has a brain the size of a pin head but it can logically experiment and work out and then remember how to entice/avoid/catch 100's of different species of other spiders from scratch and its got virtually no neurons at all comparatively to a dog.

All animals are sentient to some greater degree or another, as a cat owner for 40 years who has owned and cared for over 15 cats from kitten hood to their eventual deaths of old age, and as someone that spends hours and hours with said animals they are as Sentient as we are, they think, they analyze they have internal monologues and form memories and have as many emotions (if more stronger) than we have as well as a rich language. Sure not to our standards or the same way we do, but they DO, do these things... and ive seen this in many many many other animals ive observed over the decades and its made me come to the humbling realization Humans arent special, not by a long shot... just different. All life is Sentient to a degree, and the idea of sapience should really be ditched.

It also seriously makes you rethink how we should treat a certain sub set of domestic animals as well..

6 hours ago, (NSW)ToadBlue said:

They can be both. I doubt anyone over the age of 21 would be thrilled about learning they were actually a slow tiny waif with ambiguous superpowers instead of a high-tech mysterious space ninja murder machine. I know I wasn't.

I did the Second Dream aged 38... I enjoyed it and enjoy using my waif. I take it you also dont use Frames that arent the same gender as you in real life?

Edited October 10, 2019 by ColPresumptuous

[Loza03]

19 minutes ago, ColPresumptuous said:

Neuron Count is fairly pointless... its the shape of the brain that is pretty important and cats have a brain alot more like a humans than a dogs is, its why cats are (unfortunately) used alot in brain studies 😞. Also there are no 'smarter' animals really, just different ways of thinking or approaching life, moving your litter tray made your Kitten (and that is the key word here, Kitten) forget the litter tray, wasnt because it wasnt smart, it more than likely took the LOCATION of the tray as the place to poop, not the object of the tray as the place to poop... a cat will tend to have specific locations it classes as a latrine in its territory and it will use those places even if there is no tray there since its not the tray its using as a marker, but the place its being allowed to poop. Some cats use a different system though and will look for the tray to poop in instead of a location.., my own cats one or two will use a tray if they find it and need it while one of ours will ONLY poop under the piano and will actively avoid using a tray that is placed there and poop next to it... animals (as are humans) are quirky things, all individual, each with their sense of self and ways of doing things.

There is a species of spider hunting spider that has a brain the size of a pin head but it can logically experiment and work out and then remember how to entice/avoid/catch 100's of different species of other spiders from scratch and its got virtually no neurons at all comparatively to a dog.

All animals are sentient to some greater degree or another, as a cat owner for 40 years who has owned and cared for over 15 cats from kitten hood to their eventual deaths of old age, and as someone that spends hours and hours with said animals they are as Sentient as we are, they think, they analyze they have internal monologues and form memories and have as many emotions (if more stronger) than we have as well as a rich language. Sure not to our standards or the same way we do, but they DO, do these things... and ive seen this in many many many other animals ive observed over the decades and its made me come to the humbling realization Humans arent special, not by a long shot... just different. All life is Sentient to a degree, and the idea of sapience should really be ditched.

It also seriously makes you rethink how we should treat a certain sub set of domestic animals as well..

Tell the PhD holders that, not the guy reporting on their results.

[Rakosta_Kai]

8 hours ago, Zyga21 said:

this thread became a mess, and it's weird how people are acting like the operators exist to appeal to teens. mesa's butt is there to appeal to teens, the operators are here for the convoluted story.

Eh, I'm not really getting that vibe at all... There are a ton of folks who don't like that the operators are angsty kiddos, but I don't really see folks opining that it was a marketing stunt of some sort.

Mesa's butt, otoh, just appeals to the demographic I guess. For my part, I only took issue with how DE glorified the change at all as they had really mostly steered clear of those objectification tropes until then imo. 

8 hours ago, Zyga21 said:

also, warframes are death machines and or lifeless husks, they need operators to either subdue them or to bring them (back) to life. It's a (sort of) a symbiotic thing. Not all warframes are Umbra, this isn't that hard to understand that they're two different things.

Or they can be neither...

We've already seen in the storyline that the capacity exists for any frame to be either of the things you mentioned but also to valiantly protect and fight on behalf of the operator (in all cases)and others (in select cases)exists as well.

Simply put, They don't need operators insomuch as they do a reason they actually still feel strongly about.

On a side note: That would actually be a pretty sweet feature DE could tie to use % and mastery with a symbiosis meter of some sort for any frame.

[Zyga21]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Eh, I'm not really getting that vibe at all... There are a ton of folks who don't like that the operators are angsty kiddos, but I don't really see folks opining that it was a marketing stunt of some sort.

Mesa's butt, otoh, just appeals to the demographic I guess. For my part, I only took issue with how DE glorified the change at all as they had really mostly steered clear of those objectification tropes until then imo. 

Or they can be neither...

We've already seen in the storyline that the capacity exists for any frame to be either of the things you mentioned but also to valiantly protect and fight on behalf of the operator (in all cases)and others (in select cases)exists as well.

Simply put, They don't need operators insomuch as they do a reason they actually still feel strongly about.

On a side note: That would actually be a pretty sweet feature DE could tie to use % and mastery with a symbiosis meter of some sort for any frame.

In response to the first part, there are some people clearly saying that, my comment about it not being an appeal to the teen demographic was specifically toward them.

and as for the warframes protecting their owner..... it's tough to say why they do in the story, Im not an expert, but I left it vague on purpose. The way I see it is that we give the lifeless husks SOME life and then some of that stay in them residually. But who knows, probably not even DE, they can retcon anything they want

[Sziklamester]

21 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Now we enter "what if" territory.

My cat has a mind too. But it will, sadly, never be sapient.

Are you sure?

 

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

4 hours ago, ColPresumptuous said:

I did the Second Dream aged 38... I enjoyed it and enjoy using my waif. I take it you also dont use Frames that arent the same gender as you in real life?

I have no problem using female frames, because they don't look stupid, they have cool abilities, and it doesn't feel awful to use them. Most of them anyway.