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DarthIronclad

How nuke abilities should be reworked.

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Nuke abilities has always been a large balance issue in the game,as they can just clear up large sections of the tilesetnemy level dosen't matter for some nuke abilities which can scale.

One way to slove the issue is to rework how nuke abilities work so they are still good,but not too overpowered and make every game mode easy,and more importantly,bring back CC (and maybe weapon dps) frames back to being viable.

Instead of killing,nuke abilities should damage enemies by a  % of their health up to a cap based on the ability and ability strength.

Damage over time nukes will only drain the enemy's health up to a % of their health

This way,all nukes can be scaleable,as damage is now % based and not number based,but not too overpowered

This will make it in such a way that you don't just whip large sections of the tileset,and have to make use of your weapons to finish off the weakened enemies,with CC frames making the job easier by mainly making it less likely for you to get 1 shooted by the enemies,dps frames can then go deal with the more tanky enemies even with their health reduced.

Lets have an example

Saryn's 1 and 4

Her 1 will still scale in damage,but will only drain enemies health up to a point based on power strength

Her 4 will still apply the viral proc,but will only inflict damage up to a point based on power strength

 

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All I'm hearing is "please make everything take longer" 

How about just not sticking in groups with frames who's abilities you don't like? 

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The problem is the underlying mechanics, such as the basically infinite scaling of armor and health on enemies.  A level 160 Bombard apparently has some absurd level of damage reduction from their armor (I don't know the exact amount but gather that it's approaching 99% damage reduction) and tens of thousands of HP.  "Nuke Frames" are any Warframe where people have found a combination of abilities that can bypass the effectively millions of HP that a Bombard has at that level and actually kill them.  The problem is that anything that can kill an NPC that has essentially millions of HP will instantly vaporize anything lower than that.  If they nerf-nuked Saryn, people would just switch to the next most viable option.  Something else would turn up.  Before Saryn it was Mirage and the Simulor, before that it was something else. 

If DE made it so that NO power could directly kill any enemies, people would just switch to 'frames with better survivability, or the most effective way to paralyze and negate enemies, or whatever the "next most efficient" meta turned out to be.  If they nuked everything so hard that the only "good" combo was Inaros marching through the map and stabbing enemies to death with a Covert Lethality dagger, that's still what people would do if it was faster than "chew through random enemies that basically have millions of HP."  This kind of happens already when fighting the Eidolons or the Exploiter Orb Mother.  Most powers don't work on them, so the "good" Warframes are ones that can 1) Do insane damage via Critical Hits because those bosses are immune to Status, 2) Not die, or 3) Heal or buff team mates and NPC allies so that they can do points 1 and 2.  Anyone who knows how the boss fights work and tries to kill an Eidolon while playing Nyx is "doing it wrong."

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instead of 'reworking any form of AoE Damage in the game' - why don't we try making the game not be about idle Killing a thousand Trash Enemies that a Lato can Kill in one shot up to like Lv80.

if there aren't droves of pointless Enemies you're burdened to Kill, then AoE Damage has use but isn't the entire focus of the game by design. because you won't have 40 useless Enemies in the room + 1-2 relevant Enemies. you could just have like uh, 10-15 relevant Enemies in the room.

tl;ldr just delete the useless Enemies from the game and replace them with more unique, more interesting, and also more relevant Enemy Types.
that solves essentially the entire problem, while also actually adding content to the game and making basic Gameplay more interesting, forever. and then Enemies look cooler, put on a better show..... it's literally only positives here.
that even does the same for Weapons that AoE Weapons are still useful but non AoE Weapons gain more value.......... doing this straight up solves like 1/3 of all of the problems in the entire game.

 

40 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

If DE made it so that NO power could directly kill any enemies, people would just switch to 'frames with better survivability, or the most effective way to paralyze and negate enemies, or whatever the "next most efficient" meta turned out to be.

This kind of happens already when fighting the Eidolons or the Exploiter Orb Mother. 

just like how some recent-ish content is exactly like that. this or that type of Ability is not allowed, Et Cetera. and Digital Extremes i guess succeeds in trying to delete every Warframe from the game except for Hyper Tanks since nothing else is allowed to do anything.

 

er, for Eidolons, a bit? there's certainly many viable options for Eidolon Hunting, ofcourse all of those offer similar features of Damage Buffs, some sort of Defensive protection, and sometimes Utility. there's definitely a fair number of Abilities that don't do anything in Eidolon Hunting, but i'd ballpark it that about half of the Warframes still bring something useful to the Mission.
you very well could use Nyx for Eidolon Hunting, it'd be a bit weird but using the Damage Buff from Absorb would let you act as a Player dedicated to the Health Phase. but it would work, just like how Mirage, Ivara, Ember(probably not for long, lul), Octavia, Et Cetera can fill Damage Buffing too. you could even make Nova work, if you really wanted to.

Profit Taker is a little bit better in that regard, since some normal Enemies do actually exist, then Abilities that are pointless in Eidolon Hunting do have something to be used on. 
 

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If such a thing ever happens, I guarantee people will regret ever wanting this. 😂 People don’t stop until something bad happens.

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23 minutes ago, taiiat said:

a Lato can Kill in one shot up to like Lv80.

Share build pls

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How would you scale this so that the abilities are still worthwhile using? We have so many different Ability Strength mods that if you set it at 50%, you can just slot in a few mods and it goes back to killing everything in a single hit. The only way to do it is to either drop the base so incredibly low that the ability is completely gimped on base or hardcap it at 99%. Could you imagine how ridiculous it would be if you modded for damage, charged up an Antimatter Drop, and bombed a crowd and all the Butchers are still alive because you capped it?

Also, the whole CC game of permanently disabling enemies is just as bad as the one button nuke. The problem is how much value you're getting for something you can constantly spam every 5 seconds. Either modding or energy needs a serious overhaul, the abilities themselves are the lesser of two(three?) evils.

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2 hours ago, Oreades said:

All I'm hearing is "please make everything take longer" 

How about just not sticking in groups with frames who's abilities you don't like? 

Its like saying "if I look away the problem doesnt exist anymore!"

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1 minute ago, sleepychewbacca said:

Still broken. 

Bring back Stamina, Melee 1.0, and Parkour 1.0. 

How I would love to have parkour 1.0 back. Parkour was satisfying since you need some skills for it instead of just mashing the same button over and over.

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1 hour ago, -AiLuoLi- said:

How I would love to have parkour 1.0 back. Parkour was satisfying since you need some skills for it instead of just mashing the same button over and over.

Old parkour wouldn't work anymore with how Jupiter is designed. I think it's good that they went for a more free form movement system with omni-directional wall hopping as opposed to the extremely stiff wall running. Things like running up and along walls got really horrible to perform and look at when you had to chain them. Personally, I find the problem to just be that bullet jumping is way too much with how it's usually faster than basic sprint speeds and it done by tapping 2 buttons.

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I always imagine topics like this coming from some Rhino or Inaros, who couldn't show his 1337 skills at one shotting things with Arca Plasmor.

While we're at it, can we make enemy damage deal % of total HP+shields+buffs as well?

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This is a design issue, not a balance issue.

This topic belong more to #feedback and De ll never change nuke frames.

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The amount of time it takes to kill an enemy with a nuke ability is, frankly, not really all that relevant. DPS frames need to be able to kill quickly, it's in their name: Damage per second. What matters is how much effort and engagement you and your team go through to get there, and how much it continues to have. A majority of Warframes traditionally don't put in much effort when nuking, or really any of their abilities, which in terms of DPS means you push a button and things explode.

But even if you did fix all the DPS frames, the problem isn't fixed. We can still bypass or trivialise everything that involves us engaging with the game due to all these insane powers not simply existing, but existing without effort. We don't need to work to get access to Chroma's ability to shred Eidolon limbs or PT's shields after we already possess the mods, because the ability is a simple 'click and activate'. Many CC abilities entirely disable enemies and can be utilised without practical limitation on area of effect since they can be spammed in many cases. Invisibility should basically just be renamed invincibility for how easily it lets you completely ignore enemies and how it means that any objective that doesn't have a defence point (and, let's be real, plenty with) will probably be completable with no resistance whatsoever because nothing will ever even try to kill you.

Nukes might be the most tangibly broken thing in this game, but there's a lot more that lets us not just snap the game in two, but have something snap it in two for us. Those also need addressing.

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This game is a horde looter shooter so I mean... AoE is king, and game modes like defense, survival, and ESO DEMAND it. So if you rework abilities, you have to rework the game. 
 

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If DE implemented a system to ban frames form the party MM, I would love to ban Saryn,volt,equinox,Limbo and Oberon, everytime I see those frames, I just quit the group, I rather play the game and not just afk the whole thing thanks.

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12 hours ago, Oreades said:

All I'm hearing is "please make everything take longer" 

How about just not sticking in groups with frames who's abilities you don't like? 

I'd actually welcome a toggle so I can choose not to play in public games with anyone using the following frames:

- Saryn

- Equinox

- Mesa

I'm a melee player, so map nukers directly affect my own enjoyment of the game.

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I'm a melee player (and I've never used the spin2win meta), and my enjoyment of the game is not hurt in the least by the presence of frames that are helping complete the objective and get loot, as fast as possible.

I don't know what sort of mindset it takes to get upset by this. No reworks of things that work - and are working as intended, are needed, IMO.

(I mean, maybe if you like Destiny or other tactical shooter games, where you want to plod along like a hippo, and engage each enemy as they periodically stick their heads out from cover...while you sit behind cover like a turtle with laserbeam eyes... just isn't fun to me. Warframe isn't that sort of game... it's a lot more dynamic and fast and fun...)

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35 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I'd actually welcome a toggle so I can choose not to play in public games with anyone using the following frames:

- Saryn

- Equinox

- Mesa

I'm a melee player, so map nukers directly affect my own enjoyment of the game.

interesting idea but you exclude people based on their frames, not game styles.

this happened to me in reverse yesterday, so it will be a good point of view for you to see:


was in kuva survival, and an mr23 came through, checked the squad loadout and left. he tried joining another session, and it got him connected to us again (karma lol).
he said that he needs dps and not a useless nidus, and he quit. what he didnt know, was that I was rocking a nuke nidus build and ended up with 46% dmg among 3 of us (rest between 22-23%) after 32 mins of that survival. plus we got stalker spawn around 10 minute mark with smoke step ephemera, so he played himself tenfold. 

 

tl;dr - you want to be that guy. 

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13 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

interesting idea but you exclude people based on their frames, not game styles.

this happened to me in reverse yesterday, so it will be a good point of view for you to see:


was in kuva survival, and an mr23 came through, checked the squad loadout and left. he tried joining another session, and it got him connected to us again (karma lol).
he said that he needs dps and not a useless nidus, and he quit. what he didnt know, was that I was rocking a nuke nidus build and ended up with 46% dmg among 3 of us (rest between 22-23%) after 32 mins of that survival. plus we got stalker spawn around 10 minute mark with smoke step ephemera, so he played himself tenfold. 

 

tl;dr - you want to be that guy. 

I don't see a problem with excluding some frames from games I'm hosting. You can be a nuke damage Nidus but you won't wipe the map across 40 meters at once leaving no enemies in sight. I don't have a problem with how much damage you're dealing. I have a problem with how many enemies you're killing across the room.

I'm a melee player. That means, getting close to enemies so I can kill them. I only use Khora, Wukong, Valkyr, and started experimenting with Gauss. If there are no enemies to kill then there's nothing for me to do, so I get bored. I'd have a better time if I could choose not to play with any Saryn, Mesa or Equinox.

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

I'm a melee player (and I've never used the spin2win meta), and my enjoyment of the game is not hurt in the least by the presence of frames that are helping complete the objective and get loot, as fast as possible.

I don't know what sort of mindset it takes to get upset by this. No reworks of things that work - and are working as intended, are needed, IMO.

I have all frames, weapons, mods, arcanes and resources I want. I am no longer playing the game for the loot, but rather for the combat. I want to kill things. Having nothing kill because everything disappears in front of my eyes like a Thanos snap gets me bored and upsets me.

16 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

(I mean, maybe if you like Destiny or other tactical shooter games, where you want to plod along like a hippo, and engage each enemy as they periodically stick their heads out from cover...while you sit behind cover like a turtle with laserbeam eyes... just isn't fun to me. Warframe isn't that sort of game... it's a lot more dynamic and fast and fun...)

Yet I don't play WF like a shooter at all. I play it like it's Dynasty Warriors. My primary and secondary are even only modded for utility and CC with little damage because most of the time I'm getting close and personal and enjoying the sound of my Zaw cleaving through flesh.

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