How nuke abilities should be reworked.

[tzadquiel]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see a problem with excluding some frames from games I'm hosting. You can be a nuke damage Nidus but you won't wipe the map across 40 meters at once leaving no enemies on sight. I don't have a problem with how much damage you're dealing. I have a problem with how many enemies you're killing across the room.

I'm a melee player. That means, getting close to enemies so I can kill them. I only use Khora, Wukong, Valkyr, and started experimenting with Gauss. If there are no enemies to kill then there's nothing for me to do, so I get bored. I'd have a better time if I could choose not to play with any Saryn, Mesa or Equinox.

thank you for explaining what melee means, but I don't think you understood my point. at the end of the day, if you have a will to remove people from your sessions for whatever reason, I can't change your mind. you are however losing out on playing with people who are perhaps playing the suspect frames but not in the conventional way? not every saryn is a nuke build. not every Equinox is one. Mesa I agree with, because f*** Mesa aimbot kids. this is the point i was trying to convey - punishing them (if you like that word) for a frame choice is in my opinion short-sighted and unfair. maybe solo mode is for you?

ps. 40m (actually 60m) radius instant wipeout - that's exactly what I do. that is why i called it nuke, and not a high dps nidus... but this is not the point. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by tzadquiel

[Jarriaga]

4 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

 you are however losing out on playing with people who are perhaps playing the suspect frames but not in the conventional way? not every saryn is a nuke build. not every Equinox is one. Mesa I agree with, because f*** Mesa aimbot kids. this is the point i was trying to convey - punishing them (if you like that word) for a frame choice is in my opinion short-sighted and unfair.

That's a rather convenient hypothetical you're throwing vs empirical experience. I have never ever seen Mesa, Saryn or Equinox played differently with my own eyes. It does not seem practical to "stay open" for that 1 guy doing things differently when the rest have the same ultra-efficient builds. I don't think I'm losing out by being able to actually play the game, which is something the vast Majority of Mesa, Saryn, and Equinox players don't let me do

I envy you if you have seen more than the usual. Even then, what's the ratio? 8 to 2? Does that seem worth it to you? Does it seem "fair" to you that I'd be doing nothing on a mission in 8 out of 10 games there's one of those frames involved? Fairness is a two-way street, mind you.

4 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

maybe solo mode is for you?

I see you have taken my argument of exclusion to its most extreme and absurd logical conclusion. "Want to exclude just 3 frames from playing with you out of a roster of 40? Might as well play solo. The other 37 frames you don't have a problem with somehow don't count".

Nice straw man there.

4 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

ps. 40m (actually 60m) radius instant wipeout - that's exactly what I do, but this is not the point. 

Never seen a Nidus do that. That would make you an exception vs. all other Nidus players I've played with, so you would not be a problem.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I have all frames, weapons, mods, arcnes and resources I want. I am no longer playing the game for the loot, but rather for the combat. I want to kill things. Having nothing kill because everything disappears in front of my eyes like a Thanos snap gets me bored and upsets me.

 

Yet I don't play WF like a shooter at all. I play it like it's Dynasty Warriors. My primary and secondary are even only modded for utility and CC with little damage because most of the time I'm getting close and personal.

I guess I care more about the objective being completed, than my personal involvement in that completion. Combat is a just a means to an end for me.

I can see how AoE frames killing everything you want to kill could be personally objectionable, and I've suggested in the past (a few months ago) the addition of a method to look for groups and form parties that would allow for such an option to exclude certain frames. I see no reason to force people to play together when the frames' abilities would (or are only perceived to) step on each others' toes (perhaps only by playstyle) if there were a way to give them the option to avoid each other.

I solo 99% of the time because I like to play differently than most people. I like moving at my own pace (which can be super super fast, or methodically slow to crack every chest and open every locker, depending on my mood and goals.) Plus I go AFK randomly, and need to pause.

The main reasons I PUG are to accomplish objectives that I find tedious alone (such as keeping a defense object alive, or escorting stupid AI, or interception)... and in most of those modes, AoE nuking is a very welcome sight, and I don't care whether or not I'm doing the killing, as long as the objective is completed.

However, on the overall topic of this thread, I don't think nuke abilities need to be reworked. They do exactly what they're meant to do, and what they need to do.

[Cloudyvisage]

There was already a limit in place for nuking abilities, it was energy costs, usually nukes are on the 4 which was the most expensive ability, dropping 100 energy before zenurik wasn't hard but definitely wasn't spammable unless you also had a maxed out flow and perhaps efficiency, but at that point your whole build is probably range, efficiency, strength, energy max and maybe a single utility/durability mod.

That being said, obviously that isn't the case anymore what with Zenurik existing at all and the energy economy being completely botched, it would take a rebalancing of energy and it's costs to help this, it would have to be focused around mods to prevent newer players from being incapable of ever using their 4's. Perhaps add a corrupted effect to strength mods, decreasing efficiency, though there's no way DE would perform such a heavy handed action. The easiest way to help this would be to nerf Zenurik hard, even at a quarter of it's current ability it would still be good, it's the reason why energy siphon was the ultimate new player aura (Barring Steel Charge for obvious reasons).

If you want a bunch of energy then you should need to add up all your methods of getting energy, get Zenurik at 1 energy a second plus energy siphon at .6 a second and if you really want to spam then maybe the meta of energy siphon makes its way around and you'll see multiple individuals with energy siphon. Basically, DE can nerf Zenurik as there is a backbone the meta can fall back on if they truly want all that energy again. 4 Energy siphons is 2.4 energy a second, get some coaction drifts and you're up to 3.2 energy a second, a severely nerfed Zenurik of about 1 a second up to 4.2. Max out efficiency and use your 4 every 6 seconds indefinitely without picking up energy orbs if you and the meta really want to.

If ever there was a time to nerf it feels like now would be it, the community has gotten mellow between some big releases and won't pay attention, hek, now would be the time to nerf slash to not be true damage allowing the game to actually be balanced in damage types for the eventual melee 3.0/next generation of damage. People are creating their own self perpetuating problem of killing things too easily and DE needs to do something about it. EHP is too broken to keep existing as is.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

I can see how AoE frames killing everything you want to kill could be personally objectionable, and I've suggested in the past (a few months ago) the addition of a method to look for groups and form parties that would allow for such an option to exclude certain frames. I see no reason to force people to play together when the frames' abilities would (or are only perceived to) step on each others' toes (perhaps only by playstyle) if there were a way to give them the option to avoid each other.

Thank you. That is precisely where I'm coming from.

1 hour ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

However, on the overall topic of this thread, I don't think nuke abilities need to be reworked. They do exactly what they're meant to do, and what they need to do.

Neither do I. If people want to nuke, let them nuke. I just don't want to play with them, so I'd appreciate any form of a filter or frame exclusion settings.

[Yamazuki]

4 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see a problem with excluding some frames from games I'm hosting. You can be a nuke damage Nidus but you won't wipe the map across 40 meters at once leaving no enemies in sight. I don't have a problem with how much damage you're dealing. I have a problem with how many enemies you're killing across the room.

I'm a melee player. That means, getting close to enemies so I can kill them. I only use Khora, Wukong, Valkyr, and started experimenting with Gauss. If there are no enemies to kill then there's nothing for me to do, so I get bored. I'd have a better time if I could choose not to play with any Saryn, Mesa or Equinox.

Other than for missions like Defense or ESO, a Wukong using Primal Fury will kill most things. The staff has absurd reach for a melee weapon, and instantly kills enemies even beyond Sortie levels. He does this all while being able to move quickly, where as Saryn or Mesa have to stop moving/slow down temporarily to use their commonly complained about abilities.

I play primarily melee with guns for situations where melee doesn't work, and never had problems with getting kills when Saryn/Mesa/Equinox are present 99% of the time. Not that their presence is even common outside of Defense/ESO anyways...

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Yamazuki said:

Other than for missions like Defense or ESO, a Wukong using Primal Fury will kill most things. The staff has absurd reach for a melee weapon, and instantly kills enemies even beyond Sortie levels. He does this all while being able to move quickly, where as Saryn or Mesa have to stop moving/slow down temporarily to use their commonly complained about abilities.

I am not talking about damage distribution, but killbox range. Wukong can not kill enemies in a 40+ meter radius around him all at once even when Primed Reach is used in the Iron Staff (Not even 20 meters). That is not up for this discussion, and even hinting at it being possible is dishonest. No matter how fast you kill with Wukong, you can only kill enemies in front of you and slightly to the left due to the Iron Staff combo hitboxes while the other frames kill all at once regardless of positioning. Stopping for 2 seconds to cast an ability won't change that.

 

                                   __________

Wukong kill area =    /
                                \__________

 

_________________________________________                            

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|              Saryn/Mesa/Equinox kill area               |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

_________________________________________

 

1 hour ago, Yamazuki said:

I play primarily melee with guns for situations where melee doesn't work, and never had problems with getting kills when Saryn/Mesa/Equinox are present 99% of the time. Not that their presence is even common outside of Defense/ESO anyways...

Not my experience, and still that's besides the point. It doesn't matter if I'm paired with them once a day or once a year. The point is, that whenever it happens, it's always the same result. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)thegarada]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I am not talking about damage distribution, but killbox range. Wukong can not kill enemies in a 40+ meter radius around him all at once even when Primed Reach is used in the Iron Staff (Not even 20 meters). That is not up for this discussion, and even hinting at it being possible is dishonest. No matter how fast you kill with Wukong, you can only kill enemies in front of you and slightly to the left due to the Iron Staff combo hitboxes while the other frames kill all at once regardless of positioning. Stopping for 2 seconds to cast an ability won't change that.

 

                                   __________

Wukong kill area =    /
                                \__________

 

_________________________________________                            

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|              Saryn/Mesa/Equinox kill area               |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

_________________________________________

 

Not my experience.

Outside of ESO (defense maybe) there maybe 10 enemies around you and typically and will mostly be in close proximity. Even in ESO, passed zone 4 mobs tend to get beefy. 

This "nuke problem" is a non-extent one. And honestly, content below level 50 can be blown to pieces by any frame, and should not be balance basis for anything.

 

 

[Jarriaga]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Outside of ESO (defense maybe) there maybe 10 enemies around you and typically and will mostly be in close proximity. Even in ESO, passed zone 4 mobs tend to get beefy. 

This "nuke problem" is a non-extent one. And honestly, content below level 50 can be blown to pieces by any frame, and should not be balance basis for anything.

 

 

It's not a problem with you because it doesn't affect you. Funny how that works. 

I'm not asking for balance. I'm asking for exclusion. If I don't want to play with certain players that's on me, not on the game's balance. 

You're moving the goalpost to damage distribution. I have a problem with kill count distribution due to range discrepancy. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Yamazuki]

11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I am not talking about damage distribution, but killbox range. Wukong can not kill enemies in a 40+ meter radius around him all at once even when Primed Reach is used in the Iron Staff (Not even 20 meters). That is not up for this discussion, and even hinting at it being possible is dishonest. No matter how fast you kill with Wukong, you can only kill enemies in front of you and slightly to the left due to the Iron Staff combo hitboxes while the other frames kill all at once regardless of positioning. Stopping for 2 seconds to cast an ability won't change that.

 

                                   __________

Wukong kill area =    /
                                \__________

 

_________________________________________                            

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|              Saryn/Mesa/Equinox kill area               |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

|                                                                       |

_________________________________________

Him instantly killing everything even at higher levels does matter, because it means he gets to run around killing everything in his path. Realistically, a Mesa will never get to use her Peace Maker in any non-open map when a Wukong is present unless the Wukong is afk, or new to the game and doesn't know how to move around. Mesa has to stop moving or slow down in order to use Peace Maker, meanwhile Wukong doesn't have to when using Primal Fury and he'll just get far ahead while Mesa stays behind out of affinity range for even attempting to use Peace Maker to kill the left over enemies.

Warframes like Saryn loses value in situations where she can't delete enemies with 4 or start spores. If she can't do that, then outside of ESO/Low level defense she will realistically not get to stack spores when Wukong just slides and kills everything in that one attack. Even if she could spore, not all missions even allow her to do so, due to enemies being too spread apart, or being immune to her abilities to begin with, but guess what? Primal Fury doesn't care about any of that and is only really stopped by things like disruptions (turns off exalted weapons) or the drones (immunity), Primal Fury even quickly kills enemies with high resistance to abilities, something Saryn/Equinox can't do by just pressing 4.

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Not my experience.

Humans have bias and completely lie to themselves about their own experiences to fit their narrative; especially when complaining.

You didn't even mention Volt, and early levels and part of ESO he also just presses 4 to clear a room, while being useful for more than just ESO. Or are you one of those who think he's only capable of providing the speed buff? 

[(PSN)thegarada]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It's not a problem with you because it doesn't affect you. Funny how that works. 

I'm not asking for balance. I'm asking for exclusion. If I don't want to play with certain players that's on me, not on the game's balance. 

When you are playing with your buddies or solo do whatever you want. In a public game it is free for everyone. It most definitely not going to be tailored for your (or anyone else's) taste. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by (PS4)thegarada

[Jarriaga]

34 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Him instantly killing everything even at higher levels does matter, because it means he gets to run around killing everything in his path. Realistically, a Mesa will never get to use her Peace Maker in any non-open map when a Wukong is present unless the Wukong is afk, or new to the game and doesn't know how to move around. Mesa has to stop moving or slow down in order to use Peace Maker, meanwhile Wukong doesn't have to when using Primal Fury and he'll just get far ahead while Mesa stays behind out of affinity range for even attempting to use Peace Maker to kill the left over enemies.

Warframes like Saryn loses value in situations where she can't delete enemies with 4 or start spores. If she can't do that, then outside of ESO/Low level defense she will realistically not get to stack spores when Wukong just slides and kills everything in that one attack. Even if she could spore, not all missions even allow her to do so, due to enemies being too spread apart, or being immune to her abilities to begin with, but guess what? Primal Fury doesn't care about any of that and is only really stopped by things like disruptions (turns off exalted weapons) or the drones (immunity), Primal Fury even quickly kills enemies with high resistance to abilities, something Saryn/Equinox can't do by just pressing 4.

Humans have bias and completely lie to themselves about their own experiences to fit their narrative; especially when complaining.

You didn't even mention Volt, and early levels and part of ESO he also just presses 4 to clear a room, while being useful for more than just ESO. Or are you one of those who think he's only capable of providing the speed buff? 

You're quantifying individual frame value per situation. 

I don't care about that. I have been upset one too many times about not being able to kill anything that I have even resorted to sitting next to the Saryn and do nothing just to spite it. And since I won't ask for them to be nerfed and have everyrone pissed, I'd rather just get a simple exclusion filter when I'm hosting. 

I no longer want to play with those frames under any circumstances if I can help it. Full stop. 

What's your problem with me not wanting to play with them? What's your horse in this race? How would it affect you if a frame exclusion filter was added? Do you by chance use those frames and belive the majority think like me, so you'd have no one to play with? 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

Level 165 corrupted heavy gunner has 98.35% damage reduction due to armor and an effective health of 15,751,338 if you don't strip any armor at all via abilities, procs, or auras.  Their health is 259,514 at that level so even if you slash + viral proc them you have to get in almost 130K damage off slash ticks.  Possible with very high damage crit weapons with hunter munitions namely snipers and such but nothing else really does anything unless you're stripping armor.  

This is a horde shooter.  If you kept everything in the game as is without nuke frames in the mix there are simply too many enemies to kill via weaponry.  Then it just becomes tank metagame and nothing else because you have to survive the horde of enemies shooting at you while you kill them one at a time unless you're using catchmoon or arca plasmor, which get used even more with this change by the way and people who didn't like nuke frames will then go waaaaaah I started shooting at a horde then they blasted the entire horde away in one shot with plasmor or catchmoon so I didn't get any kills.  

Edited October 10, 2019 by (XB1)COA Altair

[Jarriaga]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

When you are playing with your buddies or solo do whatever you want. In a public game it is free for everyone. It most definitely not going to be tailored for your (or anyone else's) taste. 

If I host, I should be able to set my rules. You have no horse on a race in which I am choosing who not to play with. A filter would not even be a problem unless you happen to believe everyone else feels like me and they will all exclude those frames. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

so plain an simple you want a buff/nerf to buff abilities

so if someones saryn was modded into taking away 50% of total health that means it deals same amount of damage to a lv 5 enemy to a lv 100
so if someones saryn was modded into taking away 50% of enemies current health that means still deals the same amount of health no matter enemy lv an gets diminishing return of damage dealt 

either way your making the game now unfair to those who made a nuke frame build.
as no matter what level of the enemy your still dealing the same amount of damage to them

[(PSN)thegarada]

23 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If I host, I should be able to set my rules. You have no horse on a race in which I am choosing who not to play with. A filter would not even be a problem unless you happen to believe everyone else feels like me and they will all exclude those frames. 

No, if you host you do not set rules. The only reason you host is cuz DE did not invest the tech to do the hosting themselves. It is a public game. It even says so when you select the option. Feel free to think otherwise.. but that only makes you delusional. And this also has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Feel free to start a thread requesting whatever you want.

Edited October 10, 2019 by (PS4)thegarada

[Diavoros]

TBH the only nuker that has to be "balanced" is Saryn, she is plainly lazy to play, good scaling, corrosive spores makes armor almost meaningless, Miasma is Viral damage that can halve enemy health. Volt effectiveness on Discharge depends on enemy density and it's seriously gimped with armor scaling, Equinox Maim while having unlimited damage scaling, it requires a build up with kills, Gara's ability range is lesser than the aforementioned and while also having unlimited scaling in synergy between her abilities, she is nowhere as used for nuking and Ember is losing World on Fire soon for a stronger and more focused ability.

[Cubewano]

13 hours ago, Vesiga said:

This game is a horde looter shooter so I mean... AoE is king, and game modes like defense, survival, and ESO DEMAND it. So if you rework abilities, you have to rework the game. 
 

AOEs are currently breaking the game so it needs reworking anywho, the purpose of a horde combat system is that the horde is the challenge, instead of a small assortment of individually imposing figures with tactical designs to generate compelling combat you face a large number of enemies and facing the overwhelming numbers is meant to be the engagement modifier, having aoes so overwhelming that enemy numbers are redundant invalidates any reason in having hordes other than for artistic effect. AOE is king sure, but it's also detrimental to the games design. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Cubewano

[DarthIronclad]

True, and saryn can still armor strip with spores even with this change with my idea...and other nukes that can aromr strip like frost will be made permanent 

[Aesthier]

While I am vehemently against the nerfing of Saryn or "any" frame for that matter I do not see anything wrong at all with @Jarriaga's suggestion of making a blacklist for frames you don't want to play with.

 

To me is is just another option for players to heighten the enjoyment of their gameplay that ultimately has no or minimal effect on others.

Someone could try and make the argument that implementing such a feature would limit the amount of groups that a nuke frame player might find available. However, I propose that the only answer offered, to people that don't want to play with heavy nukers, so far has been "go play solo" or "handpick a group" neither of which increase the amount of open groups for people to freely enter anyway.  Thus giving players the option to blacklist would not limit the amount of groups available but could instead increase the amount of groups for those who play frames which are not blacklisted. 

While I may primarily play for mission completion, there are times I want to just enter a mission simply to enjoy a different playstyle. Sometimes I feel like playing stealthy, sometimes I feel like playing melee and sometimes I feel like just going hog wild and nuking everything. It might be nice to be able to ensure my time is not interrupted by frames that run counter to those playstyles.

This is not to say that the implementation of a blacklist would not have its consequences for those using them, such as the possible loss of affinity when new players blacklist nukers under the misconception that those frames are negatively impacting their experience gain, but it might just reduce the amount of "nerf (XXX) nuke frame" threads.

 

At any rate while it might not be something I would or wouldn't use, the point is it would be an additional option players could use to increase their enjoyment without a majority of the negative consequences some other proposals have had.

I say request on for the blacklist option if you so desire, and don't let people get you down.