Why rolling guard is better than quick thinking and Adaptation

[Tinklzs]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

it's how most things go here

i mean it's called DISCUSSION for a reason

Hard to have a discussion when you argue that your way (rolling guard) is best and the alternatives are bad. When in fact, all are fine and are useful in their own way and support different playstyles. 

29 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

I use rolling guard on wisp. Can't she don't roll, she slides. . And i just press roll out of habit with her. . And it works really well. ...

 

I prefer adaptation due to running a buff focused wisp (while still allowing her 2/3 to be useful). Her regen with 90% damage reduction outclasses most damage until you reach 110+.

[Proslackernifty]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

All 3 have one goal...providing protection, but which one is better? That's my thread

I don't think those mods really have the same goal, tbh.  Some mods are better/worse depending on the build, the warframe, and of course the mission.  I don't think you can just take adaptation off of every build and slap a rolling guard on there and say "done".  It just doesn't work that way.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Proslackernifty
Dumb slacker is I

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

After melee 2.5...i stay away from holstering as far away as possible

It confuses me now

 

Whenever you use your melee weapon  your guns are holstered.

 

That’s it, that’s the whole thing.

[000l000]

Il y a 14 heures, Voltage a dit :

Out of all the Arbitration Mods, I would say Vigorous Swap is the most powerful, Adaptation is the most passive, and Rolling Guard is the most underrated (because like Corvid said, you need to be active).

Passive and easy is popular.

It's not more about being passive than about being efficient. Adaptation is saving you all day long while rolling guard is only saving you on command. This is an awesome mod to use when you actually know when you are going to be hit - against Eidolons for example. But it's an awful mod to use in tougher content where only a simple grenade you didn't see coming is killing you.

Effective, damn yeah. Efficient, damn not.

It can be useful on really fragile toons such as Ivara or Loki though if you need that extra lifesaver in some situations (when you're sprinting in lots of enemies, walking on mines or even pass through this damn energy leeching door), cause building this kind of frame for survivability is a waste.

Edited October 11, 2019 by 000l000

[Zekkii]

Chances are if I'm getting staggered with Quick Thinking, I'm already dead with Rolling Guard.  

[Walkampf]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Ozymandias-13-:

You could also argue that only being able to protect yourself for 3 seconds every 7 seconds while requiring you to roll isn't enough protection for all situations.

You could agrue that, yes, even though the statement is factually wrong.

You can still activly avoid damage during the 4 second window.

Not in the least through the fact, that, even while rolling guard is on cooldown, the normal damage reduction from the rolling action still applies.

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

You could agrue that, yes, even though the statement is factually wrong.

You can still activly avoid damage during the 4 second window.

Not in the least through the fact, that, even while rolling guard is on cooldown, the normal damage reduction from the rolling action still applies.

And Adaptation is a stronger DR than rolling gives, so I'd rather have that than having to Sonic the Hedgehog everywhere.

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb FrostDragoon:

And Adaptation is a stronger DR than rolling gives

Sure, if you have the time to build up the resistence before the big guns of the same damagetype get pulled out.

Take for example grenades and bombard rockets. Explosive damage is quite rare, so when a rocket is sent your way, then what?

You still have to roll, since adaptation is, in this case, exacly as usefull as Rolling guard on cooldown.

 

[JackHargreav]

10 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Sure, if you have the time to build up the resistence before the big guns of the same damagetype get pulled out.

Take for example grenades and bombard rockets. Explosive damage is quite rare, so when a rocket is sent your way, then what?

You still have to roll, since adaptation is, in this case, exacly as usefull as Rolling guard on cooldown.

 

Or just bullet jump away from there. 

Rockets are so slow you can just walk out of their way even.

[-AiLuoLi-]

As someone who roll more than bullet jump, this mod is a terrible idea since you cannot roll without triggering it. Who thought putting the trigger on one of the best mobility action was a great idea is beyond me.

[FrostDragoon]

Which doesn't make Rolling Guard any better, and you're in one of two situations there either way:

a) You knew the rocket was coming so you dodge out of the way with a bullet jump or taking cover to block line of sight/travel path of said rocket

b) You don't know it's coming and it blasts you in the face, neither mod helping you in that situation

You still aren't making a good case for it being better than Adaptation.

[Oldskinzz]

Adaptation, QT and Rolling guard all have rather different niches.

Adaptation needs time to build up resistance but will let you face tank continuous damage. Well suited for long endurance runs.

QT is really situational as firstly the damage reduction equivalent is around 58% and it doesn't work for some damage sources, and it works only when you get death damage. I'd not put QT in the same league as the other two.

Rolling guard is an instant 100% damage reduction for 30% of the time. You get to avoid large spikes of damage but mostly have to rely on other abilities after the invul is up, or run away from enemies.

Each has its use. There's no better one over the other.

[Walkampf]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

You still aren't making a good case for it being better than Adaptation.

I never said that, please learn how to read.

[z3us32610]

19 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

It's nice. Tested it on my Ivara and did Marduk with her.

Doesn't work well with how I play, though. Crouch, jump, jump again, roll. Lots and lots of times.

Rolling guard is perfect for a prowl ivara build. I roll all the time with her in prowl so I'm invulnerable nearly 30% of the time.

[FrostDragoon]

3 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

I never said that, please learn how to read.

You're arguing as if it's implicitly true. However, I wasn't paying attention to names and thought you were the OP, so I was a little more annoyed by the arrogance/ignorance of that post in the first place.

Honestly, Adaptation is better for like 90% of situations because it's chip damage that actually hurts in this game--not the big OHKs that are mostly avoidable. Sure, get into high enough levels and you'll see Rolling Guard begin to pull ahead if you are attentive enough, but most of the time it's slash/toxin procs and tons of tiny hits (usually impact from Grineer weapons) that take you down the rest of the time. Death by a thousand cuts if you will. Adaptation is the difference between the random health orbs that drop being able to keep you topped off or having to scramble to avoid taking more damage. Put another way, Adaptation makes it so you don't have to worry about most of the damage you take while Rolling Guard is for when you're intensely worried about any damage you take.

[Aazhyd]

I used RG on my Limbo, mainly to get rid of status procs. The protection duration is very short and you constantly have to time the effect, because it's on cool down a lot.

Vs Teralyst you don't need it, you can just go in Void mode to dodge the energy spike. Just a waste of a mod spot.

 

 

[Walkampf]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

You're arguing as if it's implicitly true

I was only pointing out that the statment I quoted was wrong, since this statement leads to undercutting the value of Rolling guard.

If people want to discuss personal preference, they should at least stick to actual facts in order to not mislead people who read the discussion.

On the other side, something like:

vor 49 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

Adaptation is better for like 90% of situations

Is just as much of nonsense. I'd really like to see the math on this, how factor in personal preference of players. You are overpricing Adaptaion, jsut the the person of my initial quote is undercutting Rolling Guards value.

This number might be true for you, but ti's by no means an indication of how well the two mods perform for other players.

For example, what if somebody prefers Warframes which are either very squishy, or have DR abilities themself, which don't stack with Adaptation, like Nezha?

vor 48 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

but most of the time it's slash/toxin procs

Which can be cured by rolling guard, reducig the chip damage as well, just in an entirely different way...

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

7 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

I like not having to roll literally all the time and play the game, focusing on gameplay and objectives other than "roll roll roll not die."

 

That's why Adaptation is better. Anything passive is superior to its active counterpart. We enjoy playing the game and not literally rolling like Grendel. But unlike Grendel, we won't be able to do anything while stuck in that animation. Rolling Guard doesn't make you think, it makes you think "I need to roll as much as possible." There's a clear difference.

Except you don't roll for no reason

You have to be quick and use it in tight situations 

[FrostDragoon]

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

I was only pointing out that the statment I quoted was wrong, since this statement leads to undercutting the value of Rolling guard.

If people want to discuss personal preference, they should at least stick to actual facts in order to not mislead people who read the discussion.

On the other side, something like:

Is just as much of nonsense. I'd really like to see the math on this, how factor in personal preference of players. You are overpricing Adaptaion, jsut the the person of my initial quote is undercutting Rolling Guards value.

This number might be true for you, but ti's by no means an indication of how well the two mods perform for other players.

For example, what if somebody prefers Warframes which are either very squishy, or have DR abilities themself, which don't stack with Adaptation, like Nezha?

Which can be cured by rolling guard, reducig the chip damage as well, just in an entirely different way...

1. There was nothing "factually wrong" about my post.

2. I'm not overpricing Adaptation or underpricing Rolling Guard. Adaptation is a generally more useful mod in a number of ways. The main role for RG is that it fills in the weaknesses that Adaptation has. One of the most overlooked things about it is that if you run any other kind of elemental resist mod, you can actually become immune to that element. Since you know most players will prefer Adaptation over RG, you can run Toxin Resist aura to let the whole squad just laugh at toxin damage, which is really helpful vs stronger Infested. That's only one example too.

3. "90%" was referring to the game's content. Outside of endless missions that go on for an hour+, Arbitrations, ESO past 8 rounds, etc, most of the stuff in the game isn't so dangerous that Adaptation will be prevented from stacking up.

4. Chip damage isn't just slash/toxin. Nice cherry-pick. I was talking about all the little hits you take even when you're being mobile because there are just so many enemies firing in your general direction, the countless little hits that add up.

5. You don't have to be a tanky frame to use Adaptation well. Even a Mag can just do Adapt + Vit and survive most of the content in the game with ease.

6. Some frames don't need it, but I never argued otherwise. Nezha, Wukong, Rhino, etc. will get by just fine without it. However, they don't need RG either. It's just an extra layer of safety in either case.

7. The big reason so many people don't like RG (imo) is the cooldown/duration mix means that it may not be there when you need it most. The main benefit it offers isn't even the DR, since the mod is only effectively raising it from 50% to 100%, but that it clear status effects--something plenty of frames can do anyway. Back to that earlier (and usually safe) assumption about your allies running Adaptation, this makes frames like Oberon and Wisp incredibly useful for groups because you're nigh unkillable with that healing on. Oberon protects you from status while granting Rad dmg while Wisp offers a huge fire rate buff and stronger aoe CC. Packing RG instead of Adapt means you're losing value in either using those frames or having them on your team.

8. Even without the stacks from Adaptation, you still get DR from rolling anyway, which helps build your Adaptation stacks.

9. Rolling is not a maneuver I like to do if I can help it, because it animation locks you out of being able to fight back. Bullet-jumping is better for mobility to physically avoid damage and aim-gliding can let you take other actions while staying mobile. Adaptation will let you do whatever the f* you want while RG does not.

[clxrffdman]

Its not an issue of passive or not passive, its more of the problem of people uaing roll for movement. You sacrifice mission/movement speed for rolling guard. For some missions such as excavation, this is nice, but for 90% of the game, why slow yourself down just for that invincibility sidegrade?

[Walkampf]

*sigh*

Why is it so hard for people to accept the concept of personal preference?

@FrostDragoon Adaptation and RG very very close together in terms of overall return.

Considering they are completly different machanics, it's actually surprising how close they are and yet, the obsession and the effort you pour into convincing me, that you are right and I'm wrong, despite the fact that I never actually caimed that RG is actually better, is amazing.

The mental gymnastics you do to proove that you personal opinion is right is amazing. Just to name a single example:

vor 5 Stunden schrieb FrostDragoon:

3. "90%" was referring to the game's content. Outside of endless missions that go on for an hour+, Arbitrations, ESO past 8 rounds, etc, most of the stuff in the game isn't so dangerous that Adaptation will be prevented from stacking up.

True, however, this is also true for you plain old Armor/Health build. So in the end, it's hardly worth mentioning, since Adaptation is only one of several options we have at this point at our disposal.

In the end, what you are unable to get into your head is, that

it's completly irrevelant which is better in most of the cases.

What matters is, that people are able to choose the right option for the 1% of content they are playing right now.

Your crusade to generalise the superiortity of adaptation is missing the entiry point of having options in the first place.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

On 2019-10-10 at 9:27 AM, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

 

I just want to clarify one thing:

Quick thinking=no invincibility

Quick thinking+Rage=You're a god

*laughs in Gauss + QT + Rage*

[FrostDragoon]

22 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

*sigh*

Why is it so hard for people to accept the concept of personal preference?

@FrostDragoon Adaptation and RG very very close together in terms of overall return.

Considering they are completly different machanics, it's actually surprising how close they are and yet, the obsession and the effort you pour into convincing me, that you are right and I'm wrong, despite the fact that I never actually caimed that RG is actually better, is amazing.

The mental gymnastics you do to proove that you personal opinion is right is amazing. Just to name a single example:

True, however, this is also true for you plain old Armor/Health build. So in the end, it's hardly worth mentioning, since Adaptation is only one of several options we have at this point at our disposal.

In the end, what you are unable to get into your head is, that

it's completly irrevelant which is better in most of the cases.

What matters is, that people are able to choose the right option for the 1% of content they are playing right now.

Your crusade to generalise the superiortity of adaptation is missing the entiry point of having options in the first place.

1. I'm not denying personal preference as a reason to choose one or the other. I'm saying that one is actually better than the other for most situations you might encounter in game.

2. It's not the same as health/armor because frame base health determines if armor is even an option for you. Aside from that, armor scales very poorly with investment for most frames whereas Adaptation is an investment of just 1 slot.

3. You can pretend it's irrelevant if you want--and if you're not convinced, it's because you don't want to hear reason--but everyone else reading this can understand the reasoning and most will likely agree with the points I've made on it.

4. Having options in this context refers more to when each option is appropriate, and I've outlined that already. Just using RG "for the hell of it" is like taking a basic Lato with no riven when you can have a Lex Prime instead. Sure, the Lato may get the job done in some cases, but the Lex will be far more useful in many more.

[Walkampf]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb FrostDragoon:

4. Having options in this context refers more to when each option is appropriate, and I've outlined that already. Just using RG "for the hell of it" is like(...)

I don't like to repeat myself, but...

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Walkampf:

I never said that, please learn how to read.

 

[FrostDragoon]

25 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

I don't like to repeat myself, but...

Quote

I never said that, please learn how to read.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

In the end, what you are unable to get into your head is, that

it's completly irrevelant which is better in most of the cases.

What matters is, that people are able to choose the right option for the 1% of content they are playing right now.

Your crusade to generalise the superiortity of adaptation is missing the entiry point of having options in the first place.

You're contradicting yourself.