What if riven mods act like duplicate mod?

[JackHargreav]

Not a bad idea. Honestly I don't even use mods that are "included" in a riven. Especially not on melee weapons.

 

[stormy505]

I would be fine with it as long as rivens were changed to work with the limitation. Like getting rid of the dispo system as a whole because under a certain dispo the weapon might as well not have a riven. And stats increased as a whole on rivens to make them actually worth using.

[Skaleek]

Interesting thought. Unfortunately for the case where a riven dispostion is 0.5.... It would actually be nerfing your weapon. Also  the naked + status mods are so garbage that they would probably become one of the more desirable traits (Why have those not been balanced to be like +100% status? @ DE).

Edited October 29, 2019 by Skaleek

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

You have effectively ended any rebuttal with your true opinion of the subject.

TL,DR

1 hour ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

 

You have effectively ended any rebuttal with your true opinion of the subject.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by (XB1)Phantom Clip

[George_PPS]

Limiting modding options is extremely bad, another form of nerfing. This will destroy the system and render many Rivens with low numbers totally useless. Why bother? 

[OvisCaedo]

Well, they'd certainly have to re-rebalance everything about rivens and dispositions, again. There's a limited number of effective damage stats, and having any of them on a low disposition riven would cost you the opportunity to actually use that stat.

In general, though, I don't really care for the idea at all. At its core, it's an idea that suggests that stacking stats is the core problem in warframe's weapon modding, and not how violently all of the different stats outright multiply each other; Steve apparently has the same delusion, though, so there's potential for this sort of idea to come through.

Not to say that I like how rivens are or that the system couldn't stand to be nerfed, but this way doesn't really seem right to me. I'm not sure if there IS a right way, though; I think Rivens were just outright one of the worst ideas DE ever put into the game, and they did so with blatantly little thought into the matter if you look at how they launched. Dispositions didn't EXIST so they were only any good on the weapons that already had good base stats, the meta ones. Even when players convinced them to add dispositions, the problem remained for a long time that bad weapons were bad BECAUSE their base stats were too low to scale effectively. The weapon balance pass (which i think rivens were a lazy attempt at avoiding doing) much later bridged that problem up a bit, at least.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

At its core, it's an idea that suggests that stacking stats is the core problem in warframe's weapon modding, and not how violently all of the different stats outright multiply each other

Is it not perhaps a bit of both?

Absolutely the fact that we can just keep multiplying with various buffs is a huge problem, but getting even 2x damage out of a weapon for extended periods is pretty rare in other games. Look at a game like Remnant, IIRC one of the higher damage buffs I saw was a mere 39%, and that required you to take damage to get it. 

Having mod buffs multiplied by self buffs multiplied by team buffs is crazy, but it's also hard to balance when we can come out the gate with 4x or 5x damage on some weapons.

[OvisCaedo]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Is it not perhaps a bit of both?

Absolutely the fact that we can just keep multiplying with various buffs is a huge problem, but getting even 2x damage out of a weapon for extended periods is pretty rare in other games. Look at a game like Remnant, IIRC one of the higher damage buffs I saw was a mere 39%, and that required you to take damage to get it. 

Having mod buffs multiplied by self buffs multiplied by team buffs is crazy, but it's also hard to balance when we can come out the gate with 4x or 5x damage on some weapons.

Oh, it's absolutely a bit of both, but I feel like the different-stats-multiplying is the biggest and most core problem. Though that also makes it one that's... basically unfixable, because it's deeply tied into absolutely everything. Most games that might have this kind of exponential growth also have linear and planned out content/player progression; that just doesn't WORK here.

Rivens, I think, just add way too much power for a single slot in general. Dispositions were added as a stopgap "well we don't want to actually have to FIX how bad our weapon balance is". but with the weapon balance pass giving most weapons at least something to actually scale off of (even if they also homogenized things heavily and tiered things by MR), at this point I wonder if it would make sense to re-scrap dispositions and set all riven mods to something like... .75??? Perhaps not, though.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, OvisCaedo said:

Oh, it's absolutely a bit of both, but I feel like the different-stats-multiplying is the biggest and most core problem. Though that also makes it one that's... basically unfixable, because it's deeply tied into absolutely everything.

Indeed, and with every new frame that has a form of damage buff you get another way of multiplying your damage. Although without the complete homogenisation of all the frames (which I'm not okay with) this isn't something that's really going to change. Realistically there could be a solution in there being buff types and overall buff values being reigned in, and then not having buff types overlap. I.e. If your weapon already has a damage buff from either yourself or an ally, it can't get another one unless it's better. If an enemy is already debuffed (by say, Sonar) it can't be hit with another damage enhancing debuff.

Shrug. I don't really expect anything.

1 hour ago, OvisCaedo said:

at this point I wonder if it would make sense to re-scrap dispositions and set all riven mods to something like... .75??? Perhaps not, though.

Back to square one.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Phantom Clip said:

If you can't understand how dumb it is to say riven with 2 stats should not stack with single stat mods but it's ok for non rollable 2 stat mod to stack with single stat mod, there nothing left to say.

There's nothing dumb about it.

In the proposal the two mods are as follows, as per the quote:

The Riven is essentially two mods, each with their own stat, in one slot. It could be Damage and Multishot, it could be Damage and Status. It is 2 completely independent stats as yet to be decided from a list.

A Dual Stat is a single mod with two pre-defined stats.

I'm not saying they should not stack, (I'm open to the idea of it just as I'm open to the idea playing Forza tomorrow. I haven't bought a racing game for at least a decade because I'm not that bothered, but if you sat me down with it tomorrow I'd give it a whirl) I'm explaining how they could work in the system without affecting Dual Stats, something you seem confusingly determined that they should do.

Edited October 29, 2019 by D20
cleaning

[OvisCaedo]

25 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Indeed, and with every new frame that has a form of damage buff you get another way of multiplying your damage. Although without the complete homogenisation of all the frames (which I'm not okay with) this isn't something that's really going to change. Realistically there could be a solution in there being buff types and overall buff values being reigned in, and then not having buff types overlap. I.e. If your weapon already has a damage buff from either yourself or an ally, it can't get another one unless it's better. If an enemy is already debuffed (by say, Sonar) it can't be hit with another damage enhancing debuff.

Shrug. I don't really expect anything.

Back to square one.

And that's already a massive undertaking just for one component of the system. I don't really expect anything, either; there's just too much stuff that's fundamentally unbalanced on every front. They'd have to just about remake the entire game systems and numbers wise to try to reign anything in, and players would HATE that.

As far as my "idea" about rivens goes, it's not QUITE back to square one; square one had most of the weapons in the game having such bad stats that they couldn't meaningfully scale off of ANYTHING, and rivens being overall too strong for the weapons that DID scale well. That's two very significant things that would be different now if rivens were re-normalized to a lower-end-but-not-minimum disposition. That being said, I'm still  not convinced that it WOULD be a good idea at all balance wise, was just a thought off the top of my head. And I'm very convinced it would never happen, anyhow; players would hate it too much and it would probably wreak havoc on the market in several spots.

edit: amusingly, I think archwing weapon mods were in a MUCH better spot balance wise for most stuff; people hated the idea of the mods being weaker, but that's kind of HOW you close the delta between optimized and unoptimized weapons so that content can be balanced accordingly. But people hated it, and also so much else was wrong with archwing (and still is, and frankly I think still WILL be because I don't expect the pending rework to be positive).

Edited October 29, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[DeMonkey]

Just now, OvisCaedo said:

and players would HATE that.

Oh I'd love it. A complete remake of the foundations of the game so DE can balance the game around what we actually have and what we're expecting, as opposed to just adding layer upon layer upon layer, each one adding more obsolescence to the previous ones.

I have more hope in Warframe 2 existing however, which as a concept is interesting. About time the engine was redone, surely.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

There's nothing simple about what you're typing. No, that's not what they're proposing nor is it what they should be proposing. 

They're proposing that Rivens act like duplicates of already existing mods, so if it gets + heat you cannot use a + heat mod.

Dual stats, like Thermite Rounds, are not + heat. They are + heat and + status.

Well, i agree with @(XB1)Phantom Clip, your logic is off, based on your logic, you can stack 2 mods as long as they have different stats, like serration and heavy calibre, this is wrong, we can stack mods bcos they have different names, like phantom clip have explained before.

 

Using your logic, we should be able to stack SERRATION & AMALGAM SERRATION, bcos both have a different stats, +damage against +damage & +sprint speed. But in reality we cant... 

Edited October 29, 2019 by D20
cleaning

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ATreidezz said:

Well, i agree with @(XB1)Phantom Clip, your logic is off, based on your logic, you can stack 2 mods as long as they have different stats, like serration and heavy calibre, this is wrong, we can stack mods bcos they have different names, like phantom clip have explained before.

 

Using your logic, we should be able to stack SERRATION & AMALGAM SERRATION, bcos both have a different stats, +damage against +damage & +sprint speed. But in reality we cant... 

 

Phantom clip 1

Demonkey 0

This is a fair point, however my argument isn't "they have different stats, therefore they stack", but rather "it's a different mod". Thermite Rounds (+heat/+status) is not the same as Hellfire (+heat) in both name and stats.

Again, the OP's proposal is that Rivens act as the named mods the stat comes from, and thus exclude other mods of the same name. Phantom Clip says that if that comes to pass, Dual Stat mods should also follow the same rules and not work alongside other mods.

If you want to go by "sharing a name" being the defining criteria that's absolutely fine. Heavy Calibre does not share a name with Serration and would therefore stack with a damage Riven.

That's all I'm saying, that it's entirely possible for such a change to happen without it detrimentally affecting Dual Stat mods as well.

[ReaverKane]

On 2019-10-11 at 12:34 PM, 844448 said:

I believe you guys know that you can't put 2 mods with the same name (cryo rounds with primed cryo rounds, cryo rounds with cryo rounds, etc).

And one problem that I see from people complaints is that the power creep where you can stack mods so you can stack as much damage, critical chance, critical damage, status, etc.

What crossed my thought is, what if riven mods act as their own mod? For example, if you get this riven with +damage, +critical chance, +critical damage, it acts as "3 mods in 1 package" so you can no longer stack Serration, Point Strike and Vital Sense since said riven mod technically has those mods already

Will this be a positive change to diversify the mod build? Or a negative?

Again... That would make Riven Mods Useless. The fact that they stack stats to fill in gaps and compliment each weapon's strengths is the whole reason they exist.

[SneakyErvin]

Good idea, thumbs up from me!

One of the better ideas lately.

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned from a big argument.

Try to be civil about all of that, folks.

[MPonder]

Nope.

As I see on forums, most people seems to not invest time on Rivens, they just have those "trash" rivens that they get in game with a few rolls maybe. What would this solve.

Damage been calculated with lots of multiplicative tend to generate some absurd dmg, Multishot - Multiplicative, Bonus dmg - Multiplicative, Faction dmg is another, Health bonus/Armor bonus, another multiplicative stuff, orange/red+ crit dmg, Warframe abilities, other melee stuffs.

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

2 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

Again... That would make Riven Mods Useless. The fact that they stack stats to fill in gaps and compliment each weapon's strengths is the whole reason they exist.

Exactly.

It's not like players are forced to use rivens. I'm confused why people would want to nerf 1 specific part of other player's build. How do you even know if someone is using a riven?

Seems like these post come from players that get out performed in missions and just believe someone is using a riven.

Witch hunters...

[Carnage2K4]

13 hours ago, C104 said:

Nah there are a lot of good weapons when you know what to do

Pointless response but okay...

[MPonder]

Instead of divide (or is sub in english?) the players dmg by 10, how about multiply the enemies HP by 10. Wouldn't that accomplish the same. It is not like most players run their "dailies" with the weapon they like with the most OP riven.

In Dauntless, on the first days of open beta, there was a bug with the cell Aetherhunter, Ragehunter and Pacifier all aplying bonus dmg when the Behemoth was in rage state, and in Dauntless, things were calculated multipilicative, if you could get +6 on the 3 cells,  you would get 1.6 x 1.4 x 1.5 = 336% dmg increase  (using actual values, seems nerfed from when I played), If you could get your hand on that special Helm that drops from Shroud, that gives 300%, 3.36 x 3 = 10.08, you would get 1008% dmg increase for a 15 seconds too if I remember. I don't have to say that things were pretty faceroll, facetank the behemoth, get killed for helm buff and kill the Behemoth while the buff of the helm is active.

Later they changed dmg stuff to be additive, not more multiplicative, Using the same values with things been additive instead of multiplicative (1 + 0.6 + 0.4 + 0.5 + 3) = 550% dmg increase with all cells and helm this time, that's already a good dmg decrease. Ofc, they fixed the bug with the cells and nerfed the helm to just 100%.

Warframe has the same thing, too much things been multiplicative, you get Rubico with 3.0 critical dmg, you put vital sense and the passive of zoom  and the critical dmg go to 8.1. And everything multiple between them (bonus dmg, multishot, elemental dmg). Rivens are not the problem, how dmg is calculated MIGHT be, I have no problem with dmg been a bunch of multiplicative stuff, makes build more complex and that's the only thing Warframe has with some complexity, because missions are pretty brain dead.

[MPonder]

i'm in favor of:

1- Make content that survive our dmg, and maybe, depends on Rivens, with some Challenge - Fun - Teamwork - Good rewards - Sustainable
2- Make getting good rivens more accesible in some way then they are now. They are increasing the sources from where you can get Rivens, but that's not enough. The rng is too great yet.