[Content Proposal] The Competitive PVEVP Content {Response to Devstream 131}

[FoxFX]

 

HIGH CONCEPT INTRODUCTION

In the latest Devstream #131, [DE] had mentioned during their Q/A Section of the stream about what direction the game could go after the New War is complete. For a time, I have worked on many fan concepts on content [DE] could utilize and several of them were presented in [DE]'s Prime Time Streams. For some time, I have come with something I'd like to propose:

Warframe excels as a PVE game featuring individuals capable of wiping the floor with swarms of enemies. For a while, players have asked for a challenging content to put their skills and builds in the game to the test. So, I have asked myself what if there was a way for players to place challenges on other players? What if we can see how well in PVE one team is compared to another with the addition of a few curve balls they can throw at each other.

This is the base concept of the content I called:

EXPLANATION OF THE GAME MODE

Quote

In the link above, this Fan Concept presents a game mode where two teams of players compete against each other to reach the highest points slaying mobs of enemies. While slaying mobs of enemies, they collect special drops which an individual player can consume and use to place obstacles/challenges to their opposing team in an attempt to slow them down or take them out. The team that survives or managed to accumulate the most points killing enemies wins the game.

 

THE INSPIRATIONS/EXAMPLES:

https://imgur.com/IRXhOIO

^{Maple Story Content: Monster Carnival}

^{Destiny 2 Content: Gambit}

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In discussion with an old friend, he described to me a game mode called Maple Story that did a similar idea long ago: Monster Carnival. It was seen by that community as an enjoyable content where players competed team vs team slaying mobs and collecting special points which allowed the other team to summon stronger mobs or buff enemies/debuff the opposing team.

Destiny 2's Gambit has a similar idea, but in this particular game mode it has bosses in it and one member of a team can invade their opposition's side to try and kill them. But with Warframe, the mechanics of PVE and PVP do not mesh well so this particular aspect can be completely ignored (unless you wish to use Specters).

 

POSSIBLE LORE/STORYLINE/CHARACTERS HOSTING THIS GAME-TYPE:

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The lore behind this Colloseum could go in many different directions, or you can omit a lore behind it and let it be something stagnant.

When it comes to the variety of enemies this Competitive PVE could be, Cephalon Simaris is one candidate that could be responsible behind it. Killing enemies and using special drops to create "errors" to the opposing side could fit thematically.

Teshin is a least likely candidate for this content concept, but it could be a twist in his Conclave. He could host something like this to see if the Tenno could test each other in this Colosseum idea.

My most "Wild Card" candidate is a completely different character that could be behind this content. One such character could especially come from the new faction teased in the latest Tennocon: Planes of Duviri. Their appearance, while similar to that of Ballas, also resemble that of the Roman Empire and their Colosseum games. There could be some event where a new mysterious member of the Duviri pops out and issues an "invitation" to be a participant in a special game.

 

GAME-TYPE VARIATIONS OF THIS IDEA

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Win Conditions for this idea can vary as well as their game modes:

• Basic time-limited beat the score
• Defending a point from swarms
• Survival version where each player has one life

In this concept, players can unleash obstacles/challenges to the opposing side. There are many ways these "obstacles" can be designed for this concept:

• Have a bank of special obstacle types an individual player can choose during the mission
• Have the obstacles a player can unleash be dependent on what Warframe an individual player has brought to this game mode

 

POSSIBLE REWARDS

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I feel the best possible rewards for something like this should be something cosmetic/aesthetics so that those not too comfortable with this idea won't be too pressured to try it. Other resources can also be a viable option such as Endo and other Resource Drops.

The link to this idea has it presented as a "Seasonal Content," so even some Repetition Rewards are also a possibility (play X rounds of Colosseum, etc.).

 

THE INSIGHT AND REASONING BEHIND THIS IDEA

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This idea was made a while ago to respond to some chat/forum posts about the lack of challenging content they feel is Warframe's weakness. Initially, I wanted to try my hand on rectifying Conclave, but this will not be the idea to do that.

When it comes to challenges, I define challenges to be an accumulation of obstacles setup for a player to go through for a game. In Warframe, I see player choice to be one of the game's greatest elements of challenges. Players have the freedom to choose the builds they want to go with in missions as some builds will have certain weaknesses/strengths compared to others. This is specifically why I present this article.

The challenge this time are setup by other players. Each player gets to choose the obstacles their opposing side will have to go through; this could possibly create a competitive strategic element if this is done properly.

This Competitive PVE game-type has been used in other different game and many of them, along with the examples I have provided, have been reviewed to be enjoyable game modes to play in. Of course this particular idea of a game mode won't be for everyone's liking, but then again so are other game modes in Warframe.

 

A VIDEO FROM RAHETALIUS ON CONCLAVE RECENTLY WHICH HAS ME THINK ABOUT A FEW THINGS ON THIS PROPOSAL:

 

CONCLUSION

This is all a presented idea in response to a possible future content this game could have. Of course I am aware of the New War to come and the other content, I wish to just present this in case there is some other idea to fall back on once many things are done.

This particular game mode I feel could work out for Warframe, and I hope you enjoy the proposal for it.

Edited January 14, 2020 by FoxFX

[FoxFX]

I will be working in detail the Fan Concept in the Thread Link on a more detailed version of this idea. In the meantime, I welcome any thoughts in particular around this proposal.

[DrivaMain]

I like this, but please separate it from the main game like Conclave. Anything that is “competitive” is bound to have a high level of toxicity, this is why I always turn off chat in Destiny 2’s Gambit matches. 

Balance could be an issue due to the nuker meta, maybe ban those frames from the gamemode? Or maybe just disable warframe abilities entirely?

[FoxFX]

11 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I like this, but please separate it from the main game like Conclave. Anything that is “competitive” is bound to have a high level of toxicity, this is why I always turn off chat in Destiny 2’s Gambit matches. 

Balance could be an issue due to the nuker meta, maybe ban those frames from the gamemode? Or maybe just disable warframe abilities entirely?

This is a content separate from Conclave. It is meant to have its own rewards or standings if it comes to it.

As for balancing out the nuker meta, there is an option to balance that out and that comes with the special obstacle mechanic in this game mode.

Remember that there are special drops that allow a team to collect and use to create obstacles for their opposing team. If those obstacles were something based on what Warframe you brought over, it can shift a lot of the meta for this particular game mode.

Say for instance:

• Saryn's Obstacle Ability: Creates temporary Gas clouds on the opposing side
• Mag's Obstacle Ability: Creates temporary Magnetic Environmental Hazards on the opposing side
• Loki's Obstacle Ability: Temporarily turns enemies on the opposing side invisible

Possibilities like that could make nuking Warframe come with mid or less effective Obstacles, and other non-nuking Warframes have some dangerous Obstacles. But, this is all hypothetical and possible.

I understand the feeling of turning off Warframe abilities to feel balanced for all Warframes, but I feel that would be too far of a restriction.

[FoxFX]

Proceeding to work on Warframe Anomalies in the Fan Concept link. For the time being, will be researching other "Competitive PVE" content and how they are designed in other games.

[FoxFX]

I'll be looking into more articles about the "content drought" topics in Warframe while I proceed to work on my PVE Conclave concept. I hope that I can hear more thoughts on this proposal idea for a content in Warframe.

[DOOMPATRIOT]

Looks pretty awesome, but too bad DE has been ignoring the comminity for the last 2 years, so yeah...

But great gamemode, tho.

Edited October 15, 2019 by DOOMPATRIOT

[Velothed]

4 hours ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

Looks pretty awesome, but too bad DE has been ignoring the comminity for the last 2 years, so yeah...

Can we please stop with this generalization please? They have been ignoring minorities of the community, because they have grown so much, I too miss the olden days, but it's not the niche underground game it was in the beginning. Just because vets are neglected doesn't mean they don't listen, they simply don't listen as much to us specifically any more, because, let's face it, even if we spend hundreds to thousands of $/€/etc. on Warframe, it simply can't compare to thousands of new players spending a bit each, with the odd whale mixed in.

I'm mostly playing Destiny 2, but I can't wait for Empyrian/New War, it's simply that I don't have much to do in Warframe right now, so I play something else.

 

Back to topic, as someone who really dislikes conclave and most PvP in general, this sounds really nice.

I actually enjoy the Gambit in Destiny quite a bit, but I would like it more if there whas no invading the other side.

I think a strictly competitive but not versus gamemode would be great in Warframe. I'm kinda interested what that racing thing will be, that Steve mentioned a few times offhand.

But I really like your idea!

How about something like the floor is lava for ember? People would actually need to use wall cling, etc.

Nyx could have a mind control effect, kinda like in the Mutalist Alad V fight.

Banshee could give the enemy "radar" (disable invisibility for the entire enemy team).

 

[FoxFX]

On 2019-10-15 at 5:21 AM, Vethalon said:

Can we please stop with this generalization please? They have been ignoring minorities of the community, because they have grown so much, I too miss the olden days, but it's not the niche underground game it was in the beginning. Just because vets are neglected doesn't mean they don't listen, they simply don't listen as much to us specifically any more, because, let's face it, even if we spend hundreds to thousands of $/€/etc. on Warframe, it simply can't compare to thousands of new players spending a bit each, with the odd whale mixed in.

I'm mostly playing Destiny 2, but I can't wait for Empyrian/New War, it's simply that I don't have much to do in Warframe right now, so I play something else.

 

Back to topic, as someone who really dislikes conclave and most PvP in general, this sounds really nice.

I actually enjoy the Gambit in Destiny quite a bit, but I would like it more if there whas no invading the other side.

I think a strictly competitive but not versus gamemode would be great in Warframe. I'm kinda interested what that racing thing will be, that Steve mentioned a few times offhand.

But I really like your idea!

How about something like the floor is lava for ember? People would actually need to use wall cling, etc.

Nyx could have a mind control effect, kinda like in the Mutalist Alad V fight.

Banshee could give the enemy "radar" (disable invisibility for the entire enemy team).

 

 

In the Fan Concept link, I am currently updating ideas on the Warframe Anomalies/Obstacles. Some of them are indeed the ones you have presented. I feel this could potentially make some interesting balances having non-nuking Warframes with some more lethal obstacle creations than the map-clearing Warframes.

[FoxFX]

On 2019-10-15 at 12:21 AM, DOOMPATRIOT said:

Looks pretty awesome, but too bad DE has been ignoring the comminity for the last 2 years, so yeah...

But great gamemode, tho.

Thank you for your compliment on the game mode. Even if DE does not see this, I feel it is a topic that should be discussed with the community.

[Quistris]

On 2019-10-15 at 5:21 AM, Vethalon said:

Nyx could have a mind control effect, kinda like in the Mutalist Alad V fight.

The fact that you reference my favourite frame was part of what got me to post, but only part. XD

I think it's not a bad idea, honestly. Trying to sort it out and develop it might be a bit of a gaggle, but I would generally agree that something like this is probably needed.

Warframe does competative... Oddly.

I have actually attempted to play the Conclave (I want the Cosmetics. A lot).  But.... Well, there's a LOT of problems with that. The single biggest one, that I think this attempts to address, is that actually finding a match on the Conclave is like trying to find a working DC-10 in a scrapyard. Yes, it's theoretically possible (and doubtless the times you try will have a big impact) but for me? I've had two, I think. Maybe one. It wasn't a particularly fun experience, on top of that. It felt like the worst bits of Quake 3. But I can dig into my quibbles with the Conclave later. I'd be prepared to put up with it, to get the cosmetics from it, if I could get any matches.

But this notion effective would give a competitive aspect in some fashion that meant a... A more gentle welcome coming from the mechanics of the rest of the game. Which would be ideal. If anything, I'd argue this might slowly increase interest in other aspects of PvP, as sort of like a gateway game mode. Would many people not go past it? Probably, but some would. I think that's what I like most about this: that it promotes the idea of player versus player in a manner that doesn't radically deviate from the day-to-day of playing Warframe. Archwing sort of has this same kind of problem that I'm hoping Railjack will help with (as I love Archwing) but that's an entirely other thing as well.

Anyway, just my two bits. Hope it inspires you to continue the effort. 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Miyabi-sama]

I honestly want to critique this idea but I'm too lazy to type wall of text just to be "boo"ed and insulted in the end.

So i just say no. How about just play Destiny huh?

[FoxFX]

On 2019-10-18 at 1:25 PM, Winter_One said:

The fact that you reference my favourite frame was part of what got me to post, but only part. XD

I think it's not a bad idea, honestly. Trying to sort it out and develop it might be a bit of a gaggle, but I would generally agree that something like this is probably needed.

Warframe does competative... Oddly.

I have actually attempted to play the Conclave (I want the Cosmetics. A lot).  But.... Well, there's a LOT of problems with that. The single biggest one, that I think this attempts to address, is that actually finding a match on the Conclave is like trying to find a working DC-10 in a scrapyard. Yes, it's theoretically possible (and doubtless the times you try will have a big impact) but for me? I've had two, I think. Maybe one. It wasn't a particularly fun experience, on top of that. It felt like the worst bits of Quake 3. But I can dig into my quibbles with the Conclave later. I'd be prepared to put up with it, to get the cosmetics from it, if I could get any matches.

But this notion effective would give a competitive aspect in some fashion that meant a... A more gentle welcome coming from the mechanics of the rest of the game. Which would be ideal. If anything, I'd argue this might slowly increase interest in other aspects of PvP, as sort of like a gateway game mode. Would many people not go past it? Probably, but some would. I think that's what I like most about this: that it promotes the idea of player versus player in a manner that doesn't radically deviate from the day-to-day of playing Warframe. Archwing sort of has this same kind of problem that I'm hoping Railjack will help with (as I love Archwing) but that's an entirely other thing as well.

Anyway, just my two bits. Hope it inspires you to continue the effort. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

I will continue the effort as much as I can and as long as I can. The more feedback and thoughts on this, the better.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

they were working on a competitive pve mode known as the index, back in 2016, it was never finish and what we finally got wasnt even close to what they even mentioned the mode would be like, in fact it would have been gambit before gambit and have clan competition

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[FoxFX]

On 2019-10-20 at 1:26 AM, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

they were working on a competitive pve mode known as the index, back in 2016, it was never finish and what we finally got wasnt even close to what they even mentioned the mode would be like, in fact it would have been gambit before gambit and have clan competition

 

 

I never heard of the Index being anything like the "Competitive PVE Mode" I have presented from any of the Devstream/Prime Time notes I reviewed. Well, at any rate, the Index/Rathuum seems like a viable and optional content the way it is now.

[Quistris]

On 2019-10-19 at 3:19 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

I honestly want to critique this idea but I'm too lazy to type wall of text just to be "boo"ed and insulted in the end.

So i just say no. How about just play Destiny huh?

I wouldn't actually boo you, and I'm interested. "boo"ing people is largely unhelpful, unless they're just being an outright ass. If you have something meaningful you wanted to add, I'd love to hear it.

The just play Destiny comment is, though, largely unhelpful. It's a sort of approach I've encountered a lot so far in my time on the forums and it's very frustrating. The reason why is that it's entirely moving the whole point of the discussion away from the current topic. It is, in effect, saying "give up, this is not worth time or thought, cease your current activities and go do something else". I'm not sure if people in general or you in particular mean in that way, and I doubt most actually do. It's just very unhelpful. Playing Destiny - whatever merits it has - isn't exactly the point of that aspect of the conversation. I'm sure I'll try out Destiny at some point. I may even like it and take to it and may even, eventually, stop playing Warframe. But saying, to paraphrase your last two sentences, "no, why don't you just go do this?" is at best off-topic and unhelpful and, at worst, outright hostile and antagonistic. Again, I suspect you don't mean it in this vein, but hopefully in reading this, you'll both understand why I somewhat disparage the tail end of your post while at the same time encouraging you to actually post any genuine criticism you might have. One thing I think that's too often forgotten is criticism of an idea is not just a viable form of contribution (again, being hostile is not an inherent or important part of criticism, that's said just in case some two-bit jerk is reading and goes 'ahha, see! My being an ass? actually helpful!') but a vital one.

 

It was once said "That which does not add, subtracts" by someone once held up as one of the greatest thinkers man has every produced. Flawed or unwieldy parts of ideas should be detected, pointed out, and discussions should be had on how to excise and improve them. If you honestly want to critique it and mean it, I promise that - from me if noone else - you'll have someone willing to discuss and take apart whatever aspects of the idea you can point out as being flawed or unwieldy and talk about the whys and what approaches might be able to be engaged to remedy them. Will you have to actually take a risk and extend that level of trust? Yes, absolutely. But that's the only way that we, as people, can come together and hold any kind of conversation. I put out the trust that you genuinely mean what you said in your opening statement, and that all these words will not simply not fall on deaf ears, but will even be noticed and replied to by yourself at all. I hope you're willing to do the same. If not, I will understand, but I'd hope you'd choose to.

[Quistris]

9 hours ago, FoxFX said:

 

I never heard of the Index being anything like the "Competitive PVE Mode" I have presented from any of the Devstream/Prime Time notes I reviewed. Well, at any rate, the Index/Rathuum seems like a viable and optional content the way it is now.

I hadn't heard of it either. Any chance that anyone in the know could point out which one? I haven't been through all of them, and I'm still trying to work my way through it. As to the second bit, I'd... Generally agree. I'm still not entirely sure why that's not treated as a viable way to earn Conclave standing, honestly? It feels like a practice bot-match, if you ask me.  Or maybe that's why it doesn't gain any standing. 

 

Honestly, I could almost see a sort of strange PvP mode out of Rathuum, at the very least. Sort of a "whoever kills more of these super-hard grineer units wins" kind of deal. Not sure about the Index, although I have to say, as someone who's played a lot of Index boy am I ever glad there's another credit farm now.

[FoxFX]

On 2019-10-19 at 3:19 AM, Miyabi-sama said:

I honestly want to critique this idea but I'm too lazy to type wall of text just to be "boo"ed and insulted in the end.

So i just say no. How about just play Destiny huh?

I'd like to see your reasoning behind your reaction to this content idea.

[FoxFX]

The Fan Concept thread for this proposal is still going as strong as it can be. Currently listing possible Warframe-Type Anomalies for this content. Will also rename the content to PVEVP.

[prodi1600]

Great Idea, also Conclave should get a face surgery, lets say have other more charismatch NPC in charge of PVP and also give propper love to it, balance will come with time. 

 

In addittion the PVEVP its a grat concept for Clan content if properly exploited.

Edited October 26, 2019 by prodi1600

[FoxFX]

On 2019-10-25 at 8:49 PM, prodi1600 said:

Great Idea, also Conclave should get a face surgery, lets say have other more charismatch NPC in charge of PVP and also give propper love to it, balance will come with time. 

 

In addittion the PVEVP its a grat concept for Clan content if properly exploited.

I may in the future tackle my thoughts on Conclave.

It is true that this proposed idea can be a suitable content for Clans.

[FoxFX]

Analyzing content on the recent Old Blood. May include a few things in this but I hope to hear some more feedback on this idea.

[Gullim92]

Ever since Destiny 2 came to Steam I've been thinking Warframe might seriously benefit from adding some form of PvEvP gamemode similar to Gambit.

[FoxFX]

On 2019-11-03 at 12:39 PM, Gullim92 said:

Ever since Destiny 2 came to Steam I've been thinking Warframe might seriously benefit from adding some form of PvEvP gamemode similar to Gambit.

 

I did to. It maybe a bit of a stretch for some players to have this sort of content due to their views on the Conclave though.

[BLI7Z]

Why always compare Warframe to Destiny 2?

Destiny has a more like Borderlands/Titanfall 2 gameplay, but with very childish music and graphics. 

Warframe has a totally different gamestyle, concept and ambience.

Just go play Destinycrap 2 and stop trying to ruin Warframe for the rest of us.