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Qwertykeys

A Very Simple Fix for Manual Blocking (Works for Mouse & Keyboard and Controller)

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So I know this has been brought up several times since the melee rework phases began, but I haven't read any thread talking about the most simple fix which I think is a no-brainer. Being able to manually block is important to some such as myself. Look at sword and shield, or frames with exalted melee weapons. These especially need the ability to block manually.

As it stands today, left mouse button (right trigger) is primary fire for primary and secondary weapons while right mouse button (left trigger) is to aim. When the melee weapon is equipped, the default attack is [E] (B on an Xbox style controller) and that's it right? Right, only for now hopefully.

For those who may not be familiar, there is a great feature here where when you have a primary or secondary equipped, all you have to do is hit the melee attack button to equip your melee weapon. If you hit the primary fire button, you switch back to your previously equipped weapon and it immediately fires a round. If you hit the aim button while your melee is equipped, you will switch to your previously equipped weapon and immediately aim. 

Even though this is a great feature, there's a major issue with its control scheme for Warframe combat. The issue being that there is no way to manually block while grounded or airborne. So in order to get this functionality back (I miss it so bad), I propose a couple minor changes which should be super simple to implement.

With a melee weapon equipped:

1. Change the primary fire button to ONLY re-equip the previous weapon. Don't fire a round. This would have very little impact on the flow of battle as simply hitting the button again will fire the weapon. There could even be an input buffer so that after hitting the button to switch back, a player can immediately hit it again without needing to wait for the weapon to be fully equipped yet to register firing a round. Swapping from primary/secondary to melee would remain the same as it is now.

2. Make the aim button the block button. The aim button will remain the aim button when a primary or secondary weapon is equipped. For those who want to switch from their melee weapon back to their primary/secondary and immediately aim, all they have to do is hit the left mouse button then hold the right mouse button. Again, a buffer can be implemented to make it a smooth transition.

Super simple, super quick, and super easy for both Mouse & Keyboard and Controller. Yay, we all get our manual blocking back. The melee mods designed for blocking are finally unbroken and old builds can be made new again.

Both of these changes, I felt, should have been pretty obvious from the start. It isn't intuitive to assume that while having a melee weapon equipped, that the right mouse button would be used to aim a weapon that isn't equipped anymore or for the left mouse button to fire the same unequipped weapon. Hitting the left mouse button to just re-equip the previous primary/secondary does make intuitive sense however, and it would be amazing if a change like this could be implemented in the near future. The sooner the better of course.

DE, please don't get rid of manual blocking permanently. I do believe a lot of us really enjoyed having that ability.

Edited by Qwertykeys
Didn't like having two paragraphs start with "So".
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6 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Neat idea. I agree.

Cool. Glad to see someone agree. I always thought being able to block was a main feature of melee and was totally surprised when it was taken out.

Edited by Qwertykeys

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I support idea 2 fully, though not idea 1, as I do think having to press a button twice just to fire the first round/attack is in fact a significant delay (look at how clunky it used to be to manually switch from guns to melee): to me, the best would be to combine blocking and ADS so that the player would both aim and block at the same time, which carries the added benefit of giving the same button the same consistent effect regardless of which weapon the player has equipped. The caveat here would be that in order for this to work, guns should all have the same default level of zoom, which in turn means certain weapons (especially snipers) would need an additional alt-fire toggle, but that I think is also something that needs to exist already. 

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22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I support idea 2 fully, though not idea 1, as I do think having to press a button twice just to fire the first round/attack is in fact a significant delay (look at how clunky it used to be to manually switch from guns to melee): to me, the best would be to combine blocking and ADS so that the player would both aim and block at the same time, which carries the added benefit of giving the same button the same consistent effect regardless of which weapon the player has equipped. The caveat here would be that in order for this to work, guns should all have the same default level of zoom, which in turn means certain weapons (especially snipers) would need an additional alt-fire toggle, but that I think is also something that needs to exist already. 

No, blocking should not be tied to zoom switch in any way.

But having the LMB just not immediately fire is indeed an unnecessary delay or need to double-tap (since the whole point of LMB switch is to shoot immediately from the hip), so IMO the better solution would be either that reload would always switch to "active" gun, or alternatively using the switch weapon would switch to the "active" gun instead of the other gun if you've got melee out.

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2 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

No, blocking should not be tied to zoom switch in any way.

How come?

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As we've seen with the current system, it will inevitably be disruptive in nature, except even moreso if blocking would also zoom in. Zooming in during melee ALL THE TIME is even worse than how it can be with the current system, since now that same disorienting and unhelpful effect is happening constantly. Spatial awareness is extremely important in melee, and since holding RMB is one of the key combo inputs it would have disastrous consequences if it zooms in during the entire combo or even just between combos.

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I have no clue about controllers or consoles, but for PC m+kb why couldn't they have added the slam attacks, and made using combos universal, while keeping the rest by simply speeding up weapon swap, and tie fire a round to draw weapon, keeping the separate bind option for both primary, and secondary? Which would have left manual block, on mouse right click, and channel on mouse left click, giving at least PC users the best of all worlds? 

 

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12 minutes ago, vaarnaaarne said:

As we've seen with the current system, it will inevitably be disruptive in nature, except even moreso if blocking would also zoom in. Zooming in during melee ALL THE TIME is even worse than how it can be with the current system, since now that same disorienting and unhelpful effect is happening constantly. Spatial awareness is extremely important in melee, and since holding RMB is one of the key combo inputs it would have disastrous consequences if it zooms in during the entire combo or even just between combos.

But the player wouldn't be asked to zoom in all the time, just during blocking, which is itself justified due to the fact that the player is typically blocking damage from a certain source. For sure, ADS in the middle of a combo currently makes little sense, but a) combining ADS and blocking wouldn't change the current situation, and b) the problem comes from the combo inputs themselves, not ADS or blocking. What you're criticizing here are Melee 3.0 combos, not manual blocking through ADS.

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The worst thing isn't even control issues it's the fact that now u can't turn off auto block that means that if you channel - every single shot to you will waste all your energy.

DE please add toggle to turn on and off auto block.

Edited by She11by
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В 14.10.2019 в 11:44, Teridax68 сказал:

But the player wouldn't be asked to zoom in all the time, just during blocking, which is itself justified due to the fact that the player is typically blocking damage from a certain source. For sure, ADS in the middle of a combo currently makes little sense, but a) combining ADS and blocking wouldn't change the current situation, and b) the problem comes from the combo inputs themselves, not ADS or blocking. What you're criticizing here are Melee 3.0 combos, not manual blocking through ADS.

Try doing it with snipers. Or Seer.

Why should you lower your FoV in block in the first place?

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Just now, Miyabi-sama said:

Try doing it with snipers. Or Seer.

How good of you to mention this! I had completely missed...

On 2019-10-14 at 8:58 AM, Teridax68 said:

I support idea 2 fully, though not idea 1, as I do think having to press a button twice just to fire the first round/attack is in fact a significant delay (look at how clunky it used to be to manually switch from guns to melee): to me, the best would be to combine blocking and ADS so that the player would both aim and block at the same time, which carries the added benefit of giving the same button the same consistent effect regardless of which weapon the player has equipped. The caveat here would be that in order for this to work, guns should all have the same default level of zoom, which in turn means certain weapons (especially snipers) would need an additional alt-fire toggle, but that I think is also something that needs to exist already. 

Oh.

Just now, Miyabi-sama said:

Why should you lower your FoV in block in the first place?

Because blocking itself implies focusing your defenses against enemies in a certain direction. Merely holding a button for a cover-all damage reduction steroid at no alteration to gameplay is one of the main reasons why block was hardly noticed even when it was still manual. Additionally, combining blocking with ADS carries the added benefit of giving the player more survivability when aiming. There's likely also plenty to be said about how this could open up more interesting gameplay around blocking, but just based on what exists now, it's not an unjustified proposal.

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35 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Because blocking itself implies focusing your defenses against enemies in a certain direction.

Bulls@#t.

35 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Merely holding a button for a cover-all damage reduction steroid at no alteration to gameplay is one of the main reasons why block was hardly noticed even when it was still manual.

No, it is because mostly people stack EHP and resists to some stellar values where blocking becomes redundant.

38 минут назад, Teridax68 сказал:

Additionally, combining blocking with ADS carries the added benefit of giving the player more survivability when aiming.

Blocking works in a wide angle for purpose. If you propose to block only a thing that you aim at it is not a good solution, makes you aim at that pesky bombard/moa stomp/whatever. And with lowered fov on block it is plain hard and needs alteration in aim sensitivity bar to work properly. If you propose to block in a wide angle while aiming precisely for one guy it wrecks your spatial awareness.

OP tried to come up with simple solution, not j@#king with FoV, just a double tap for switch'n'shoot. It takes very little effort to implement and very little time to get used to.

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18 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Bulls@#t.

It is literally directional damage reduction, my dude. Even now, you have to at least aim in the vague general direction of what you want to block in order to block the thing.

Quote

No, it is because mostly people stack EHP and resists to some stellar values where blocking becomes redundant.

So first off, this is flat-out mathematically wrong, as an extra layer of multiplicative damage reduction works even better off of a larger amount of EHP to increase. Second, this is flat-out chronologically wrong, as blocking was underused even before the game became saturated with 90+% DR steroids, and wasn't used particularly even by squishier frames. Blocking was never a particularly valued mechanic, and so because of its generally floaty and imprecise design. 

Quote

Blocking works in a wide angle for purpose. If you propose to block only a thing that you aim at it is not a good solution, makes you aim at that pesky bombard/moa stomp/whatever. And with lowered fov on block it is plain hard and needs alteration in aim sensitivity bar to work properly. If you propose to block in a wide angle while aiming precisely for one guy it wrecks your spatial awareness.

You're establishing a false dichotomy here between either blocking completely in one direction, or blocking against only a single attacker, when even now blocking works at a 45-degree angle, which itself underlines a fundamental misunderstanding of how blocking works even as you decide to go into details: not only would zooming in not restrict the blocking angle, it would in fact align better with it and give a better feel of where exactly the player is blocking, as opposed to the current gameplay of facing a general direction and hoping that you're aligned enough with the enemy line of fire.

Quote

OP tried to come up with simple solution, not j@#king with FoV, just a double tap for switch'n'shoot. It takes very little effort to implement and very little time to get used to.

Except as pointed out in both instances, this would not be the case, as suggestion 1 would in fact be deceptively messy, and suggestion 2 requires the player to memorize the weapon they have equipped in a weapon system that is trying to eliminate the gap between melee and gunplay, a requirement that has already worked out poorly for alt-fires and channelling. In this respect, on those suggestions alone it may in fact be more prudent not to implement them at all; whereas I suggested an equally simple alternative that could in fact significantly smooth out gameplay.

Edited by Teridax68

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Directed, aimed blocking is an idea that is fundamentally unsuitable for a horde fighter like Warframe. Just as even sudden sporadic changes in FOV screw with melee *hard* (and just as hard with "aimed block" as they do with RMB switch). It's a completely unworkable as a concept.

Blocking was not used much because in Warframe you have WAY stronger passive defenses than you have with blocking, a frame's ability to tank comes from all sorts of things and blocking is only a tiny little thing by comparison. Blocking is not used for real tanking, even before autoblock nerfed it. Even as an emergency tanking function from moving from A to B as a flimsy frame it was not that important. That's even before we get into the fact that active defense in Warframe is KILLING EVERYTHING and not trying to aim at a Bombard to block. But what blocking mattered for is specific abilities tied to it (ie, Electromagnetic Shielding), gliding without a zoom in, and the fact blocking is a cornerstone of melee combo inputs. And those are what autoblock has been screwing with hard. Making blocking zoom in just perpetuates this same disruptive problem.

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am i the only one who exclusively uses melee with his LMB? If i cant have that, well, that would suck balls 😕

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On 2019-10-14 at 2:58 AM, Teridax68 said:

I support idea 2 fully, though not idea 1, as I do think having to press a button twice just to fire the first round/attack is in fact a significant delay (look at how clunky it used to be to manually switch from guns to melee): to me, the best would be to combine blocking and ADS so that the player would both aim and block at the same time, which carries the added benefit of giving the same button the same consistent effect regardless of which weapon the player has equipped. The caveat here would be that in order for this to work, guns should all have the same default level of zoom, which in turn means certain weapons (especially snipers) would need an additional alt-fire toggle, but that I think is also something that needs to exist already. 

I agree with the others that having zoom on block is not a good idea. A large point to my idea is that this would be very easy to implement. Doing it the way you propose would take a lot of time because it would require too many changes to the way weapon zoom works. Having to press a button twice takes like 100 ms. There is hardly any time delay compared to what we have now. Switching from primary/secondary to melee using the melee button would remain the same as we have now.

On 2019-10-14 at 3:22 AM, vaarnaaarne said:

No, blocking should not be tied to zoom switch in any way.

But having the LMB just not immediately fire is indeed an unnecessary delay or need to double-tap (since the whole point of LMB switch is to shoot immediately from the hip), so IMO the better solution would be either that reload would always switch to "active" gun, or alternatively using the switch weapon would switch to the "active" gun instead of the other gun if you've got melee out.

Pressing a button twice does not take that much time, plus I hate having to fire a round to switch back to my weapon from melee. It makes a lot of sense to me having it the way I proposed. Switching to melee would remain the same as we have now.

On 2019-10-14 at 3:30 AM, Nichivo said:

I have no clue about controllers or consoles, but for PC m+kb why couldn't they have added the slam attacks, and made using combos universal, while keeping the rest by simply speeding up weapon swap, and tie fire a round to draw weapon, keeping the separate bind option for both primary, and secondary? Which would have left manual block, on mouse right click, and channel on mouse left click, giving at least PC users the best of all worlds? 

 

Speeding up weapon swap is a part of the game right now through mods so it wouldn't make much sense to have weapon swap speed increased. The way it is now is fine except that swapping and immediately shooting should be done with two clicks or presses instead of one. It would literally only take about 100ms for you to press one button twice in rapid succession.

15 hours ago, She11by said:

The worst thing isn't even control issues it's the fact that now u can't turn off auto block that means that if you channel - every single shot to you will waste all your energy.

DE please add toggle to turn on and off auto block.

I agree with this. Making it so blocking is manual only would be nice to have.

1 hour ago, Kaggelos said:

am i the only one who exclusively uses melee with his LMB? If i cant have that, well, that would suck balls 😕

How do you use LMB for melee if LMB is also your primary fire?

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17 minutes ago, Qwertykeys said:

Speeding up weapon swap is a part of the game right now through mods so it wouldn't make much sense to have weapon swap speed increased. The way it is now is fine except that swapping and immediately shooting should be done with two clicks or presses instead of one. It would literally only take about 100ms for you to press one button twice in rapid succession.

You mean was part of the game. With the exception of the orb and Archguns they broke the reason to use most of the weapon swap mods. The way it is now is not fine. I used to have a key for secondary, and separate key for primary, the way it is now is terrible. I personally don't care about the fast firing of a round, I want back my option to block with right mouse, and instant channel unless it's removed with my left mouse, and aim glide with a melee weapon out without losing control because of auto block. The current system borks a bunch of different builds and mods,  Guardian Derision, Electromagnetic Shielding, Avenging Truth. 

The current system is terrible, and double tap skills are annoying, and should always be disabled, and set as a single keybind. Why are you trying to make me go back to the 80's and play streetfighter?

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1 hour ago, Qwertykeys said:

I agree with the others that having zoom on block is not a good idea. A large point to my idea is that this would be very easy to implement. Doing it the way you propose would take a lot of time because it would require too many changes to the way weapon zoom works. Having to press a button twice takes like 100 ms. There is hardly any time delay compared to what we have now. Switching from primary/secondary to melee using the melee button would remain the same as we have now.

100 ms just to be able to start attacking is a huge delay compared to being able to attack instantly, and once again we have the current and previous combat systems to highlight just how clunky it was to have to manually switch weapons before attacking each time. It doesn't matter how easy your solution is to implement here if it's not going to be smooth: what you're messing with here is a core aspect of the game's feel, so if it's not right, might as well not do it at all.

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7 hours ago, Nichivo said:

The current system is terrible, and double tap skills are annoying, and should always be disabled, and set as a single keybind. Why are you trying to make me go back to the 80's and play streetfighter?

Making people play Street Fighter 1 is basically some sort of warcrime.

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Maybe I can propose a specific change to your thinking.

Since Auto-Block is a thing, what you can actually take this as is even more simple than your idea; hitting the Melee button is a toggle to enable auto-blocking. You therefore do not need a manual block button, you are in 'enable auto-block' mode. Any time your melee weapon is out, therefore, and you are not attacking, you have now got the DR of blocking readily available.

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13 hours ago, Qwertykeys said:

How do you use LMB for melee if LMB is also your primary fire?

Whenever im using guns, and wanna switch to melee, i quickly press V (E by Default/melee key), play with my melee (using LMB), and then RMB to switch back to aiming/shooting.

Edited by Kaggelos

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I've been preaching every single time to combine the aim and block into one button, making it an universal glide button aswell, so yes

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9 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Maybe I can propose a specific change to your thinking.

Since Auto-Block is a thing, what you can actually take this as is even more simple than your idea; hitting the Melee button is a toggle to enable auto-blocking. You therefore do not need a manual block button, you are in 'enable auto-block' mode. Any time your melee weapon is out, therefore, and you are not attacking, you have now got the DR of blocking readily available.

 I completely disagree. In fact I will always disagree, with anything that removes player engagement, and replaces it with automation. The old system could have used some tweaks sure, but at the end of the day it was a really brilliant feature rich complete solution. What we currently have is an unfinished poorly thought out idea, that removes player control/ engagement, while breaking some mechanics, and mods. 

Edited by Nichivo

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