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A Very Simple Fix for Manual Blocking (Works for Mouse & Keyboard and Controller)

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5 hours ago, Nichivo said:

In fact I will always disagree, with anything that removes player engagement,

Fair, but I’ll have to agree to disagree, I think it’s completely fine to remove a function that players were not engaging with in the first place. With the caveat that the replacement does need to be something they actually do engage with.

DEs reason for changing melee at all was because players were only using the quick melee in an overwhelming majority. Then the players that actually were using melee only used the block function for their combos, again in an overwhelming majority, and on top of that there’s channeling, which was a niche in a niche (likely because the mods weren’t worth the slots).

But that isn’t the only line, ‘player engagement’, if that were the case lots of other features would be gone. Raids weren’t scrapped for redo because of only low player engagement, but because the team had to bug-fix them every single patch because something would break.

What the plan is, even if I’m as skeptical of that plan as you are (because I am skeptical), is to make the melee system more engaging overall, even if these specific functions have to die and become automatic as a result.

I mean, tell me, when was the last time you... used the Impending Battery combo in Final Harbinger (the sword and shield stance, and the Pause combo for it)? Or Pause combos in general? A melee focused person would at least try them out, and the Final Harbinger pause combo ends on an attack that hits 5x at 125% damage and guarantees a status proc. It’s a good combo. But I don’t use it, not on purpose. I don’t use most of the pause combos because they’re too timing based compared to the advancing, standing and block combos.

And while, yes, I agree that Blocking is much more used than some of the obscure combos on certain stances, my point is that if Blocking manually had to die in order for DE to bring in all the changes to Stances, the rework to the combo counter system, replacing channeling, and giving stat buffs to all the melee weapons left behind by time the way they did to the primaries and secondaries?

Then yeah, I’ll support an auto block function as far as that goes. I’ll happily use that former block button as an aiming tool for combining gun and melee, either shooting or aiming a gap closer (despite the general dislike of it on Wukong, I use it because it has two instant Status procs guaranteed on the first hit).

If getting rid of manual block makes a system that actually allows me to blend gun and melee play together? Then I’m all for it because that’s more engagement in the system itself, at the cost of one part that statistically had very low engagement with it.

So yeah... Pressing Melee puts you into blocking mode, because auto-block is a thing now. But if you’re actually heading into ‘The Sword Alone’ territory, you still have manual block anyway.

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I just want DE to make an option to use melee the way we used to (hold to swap and stay swapped). Then, replacing the quick melee, you could make a quickshot alternate keybinding that just shoots your sidearm and returns to melee.

I play a lot of valkyr, and I used to have LMB for Melee Attacks, RMB for Block, and E for Melee Channeling. Mashing quick-melee is considerably more strenuous on your hand than rapid clicking, and it makes it harder to control your character's movement as smoothly.

It doesn't help that I've got a twitchy right hand, and I often randomly left or right click without meaning to. Currently, that means that my melee instantly gets thrown away and I start shooting my gun (or aiming it, at the least), which breaks the flow of combat, wastes ammo from my gun's magazine, and negates the invulnerability effect of Hysteria (since the invuln only applies with your claws drawn). Personal quirks aside, I feel like there are a lot of other players who'd rather be able to make Melee their primary combat form, and have a quickshot system, rather than be gun-focused with quick melee.

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On 2019-10-12 at 8:24 AM, Qwertykeys said:

Change the primary fire button

I'll do you one better.
The reload button (held) should swap back to last equipped guns.
You could still use fire for your melee when it's equipped this way.. still block..

Only reason I can think that they don't use this,
is for the users who have reload and context action in the same place,
and might be spamming context action on the way up to a console to hack.

Other than that, I don't see a reason why not.
Maybe even make Hold reload be weapon swap,
and just speed up holstering in general.
...If they're looking to reduce buttons needed for console users, this oughta do it.
Totally removes the need for a separate button for Swap Guns.
Nothing currently has a need for a held reload, whatsoever.
"It's free real estate."

Edited by kapn655321
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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Fair, but I’ll have to agree to disagree, I think it’s completely fine to remove a function that players were not engaging with in the first place. With the caveat that the replacement does need to be something they actually do engage with.

DEs reason for changing melee at all was because players were only using the quick melee in an overwhelming majority. Then the players that actually were using melee only used the block function for their combos, again in an overwhelming majority, and on top of that there’s channeling, which was a niche in a niche (likely because the mods weren’t worth the slots).

Hmm. I'm a player that was engaged with that system. The current replacement is less engaging. I can't currently use guardian derision without tossing out my primary, and secondary, because the new system is trying to play for me(auto block). Even funnier! Because of that, I stopped using my sword, and board that had final harbinger on it, which frequently was used for the pause combo to gain the Heat proc. Not to mention, I can no longer effectively use a channeled parry to stagger an enemy firing at me opening it to a finisher without auto block kicking in making it impossible to do the finisher, and with channel on a toggle, yup there goes your energy. 

You kind of picked the wrong person, since I used all the tools at my disposal with the old system, including combos, and split second timed channeling.  Even dispatch overdrive is now a pain to use, because instead of using split second channel, you turn on a toggle, and watch auto block take the helm unless you walk backwards towards the enemy.  The new system as it currently stands, is so bad some people quit playing as a direct result. The only thing the new system didn't change was spin to win, but if I am going to spin anyway, I still prefer Broken Bull, at  least when auto block isn't trying to play for me.

I'm also a little tired of equipping my scanner so often and it's keybound. 

I will not even comment on what the changes coming are going to be like. Because until it happens, it's just that speculation.

 

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6 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

You kind of picked the wrong person, since I used all the tools at my disposal with the old system, including combos, and split second timed channeling.

No, actually, I think picked a very good debate partner. Despite your unwillingness to comment, I really want to get your opinion on things, as many of these changes are slated to happen this month. The DevStream two weeks ago said that, at least, and there's going to be another one this week which will no-doubt go even further.

You were, in this case (and I can sympathise), one of the very, very few that was actually engaging with Melee to the point you were. And sure, this particular function of the pause combo was something you used, but it was particularly irritating for others because even just equipping something like Berserker would throw it off, having a Volt in the mix did the same thing and was one of the key problems listed for trying to completely rework Volt's Speed for literal years, because some combinations actually made it literally impossible to use the timing-based combos, and in some rare cases even resulted in only being able to repeat the first move in a combo over and over again, without being able to chain it into the next step.

The old system had more than a few flaws, let's be fair, and as a person that did use what they had more often than the majority, I can only want to ask you more questions.

For example what do you say to the fact that DE are completely removing Channelling as a function? So not just the block but your more advanced tools from the old will be completely removed, and instead there will be a completely different tool kit and may be (at best) even deeper than the basic functions Channelling gave you. And to go with that, what about them changing the purpose of the Combo Counter, meaning it will no longer scale your damage up, but instead be a resource that you manage in order to gain boosts to your performance by expending it? That kind of system is bound to have far more depth than both basic Channelling and the basic Combo Counter. After all, those two functions are literally just 'spend energy to get 50% better damage and a few unique mod effects' and 'hit things more, you do more damage', which is incredibly simplistic when you break it down.

However, at the time these were actually implemented, both functions were amazing, given the depth that they actually improved Melee by during the update 'The Sword Alone'. And I honestly think we can expect that kind of improvement again.

But my key point to go back to is actually that the melee system itself is not the sole function here, not the sole method of interacting with the game. Your entire reply to me here is that the current system of melee, specifically, is less engaging, but that wasn't my point I was making. The point I was making is that by cutting down a function we make the overall interaction with the game more engaging. We can blend melee with the rest of the game better, make that function of being both 'master of gun and blade' actually interactive. And maybe that's not what you want from it, but I can only feel that this is a good step to go for because it can lead to better things further on.

DE started this process with the whole 'dual wield' system they started to introduce, where they got as far as implementing Glaives and Guns, but before they could do more this whole Melee 3.0 thing kicked off and it was put on hold until this bigger update. The idea being that in the right combination, you don't even need to switch, you have your melee and gun available to you simultaneously and you create better interactions for players because of that. This is the kind of thing I do think will improve the game overall, even if it does cut out something like manual blocking.

So my whole point is, yes, you're losing some specific parts, you are in fact losing a part of the melee system. What you are gaining, in return, is a better combined system, and we're literally on the verge of seeing how much better.

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25 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, actually, I think picked a very good debate partner. Despite your unwillingness to comment, I really want to get your opinion on things, as many of these changes are slated to happen this month. The DevStream two weeks ago said that, at least, and there's going to be another one this week which will no-doubt go even further.

You were, in this case (and I can sympathise), one of the very, very few that was actually engaging with Melee to the point you were. And sure, this particular function of the pause combo was something you used, but it was particularly irritating for others because even just equipping something like Berserker would throw it off, having a Volt in the mix did the same thing and was one of the key problems listed for trying to completely rework Volt's Speed for literal years, because some combinations actually made it literally impossible to use the timing-based combos, and in some rare cases even resulted in only being able to repeat the first move in a combo over and over again, without being able to chain it into the next step.

The old system had more than a few flaws, let's be fair, and as a person that did use what they had more often than the majority, I can only want to ask you more questions.

For example what do you say to the fact that DE are completely removing Channelling as a function? So not just the block but your more advanced tools from the old will be completely removed, and instead there will be a completely different tool kit and may be (at best) even deeper than the basic functions Channelling gave you. And to go with that, what about them changing the purpose of the Combo Counter, meaning it will no longer scale your damage up, but instead be a resource that you manage in order to gain boosts to your performance by expending it? That kind of system is bound to have far more depth than both basic Channelling and the basic Combo Counter. After all, those two functions are literally just 'spend energy to get 50% better damage and a few unique mod effects' and 'hit things more, you do more damage', which is incredibly simplistic when you break it down.

However, at the time these were actually implemented, both functions were amazing, given the depth that they actually improved Melee by during the update 'The Sword Alone'. And I honestly think we can expect that kind of improvement again.

But my key point to go back to is actually that the melee system itself is not the sole function here, not the sole method of interacting with the game. Your entire reply to me here is that the current system of melee, specifically, is less engaging, but that wasn't my point I was making. The point I was making is that by cutting down a function we make the overall interaction with the game more engaging. We can blend melee with the rest of the game better, make that function of being both 'master of gun and blade' actually interactive. And maybe that's not what you want from it, but I can only feel that this is a good step to go for because it can lead to better things further on.

DE started this process with the whole 'dual wield' system they started to introduce, where they got as far as implementing Glaives and Guns, but before they could do more this whole Melee 3.0 thing kicked off and it was put on hold until this bigger update. The idea being that in the right combination, you don't even need to switch, you have your melee and gun available to you simultaneously and you create better interactions for players because of that. This is the kind of thing I do think will improve the game overall, even if it does cut out something like manual blocking.

So my whole point is, yes, you're losing some specific parts, you are in fact losing a part of the melee system. What you are gaining, in return, is a better combined system, and we're literally on the verge of seeing how much better.

That's all speculation. I'm not about to start counting chickens before they hatch. How can you claim the new system is better? When did you last play the new system? My opinion on the current system stands, it's really broken and less engaging than the previous system. I currently can't bind my secondary or primary separately, and I am not in the habit of picking up the wrong tool for the job, so that I can later pick up the correct tool with the same key.

Case in point. Shoot an enemy with your pistol, equip melee, then aim and back to pistol you go. However! Shoot an enemy with your pistol, then equip your scanner, then go to melee and aim and whoopsie is that your primary you just whipped out? The current system is horribly broken. 

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3 hours ago, Nichivo said:

The current system is horribly broken.

Yeah, it is, but those are quite easily fixable problems and the only reason that they haven't been is because of the changes coming. As in a 'why fix them when they're not going to be there later?' kind of attitude.

On the other hand, we didn't even have this much functionality before. Think about it, you had to manually switch to melee before you could even use a combo, and when you switched back it was the same situation. The scanner bringing you back to Primary happened before, but there was an extra key-press in the way if you were in melee mode so it wasn't as apparent or as reported as it is under the current system. And yes, it was reported, I put in a report about it specifically.

As a point, I don't claim the new system is better, I claim the current system is actually better than the previous because now you don't have to differentiate between 'quick melee' and actual melee, that the freedom to actually switch between guns and melee instantly is a definite step in the right direction, and propose that, based on that step, the next step should be better.

With all the broken things, I do hold the view that this is better. And it's not because it makes melee better than it was previously, but because it makes the entire function of playing the game with guns and melee better than it was.

See, you're approaching this as somebody who is trying to make exclusively melee improvements, because you're seeing the removal of a player's agency on a particular, singular part of it as negative to melee. What you're not seeing, because of that, is the overall game improvement that's come despite it.

More players are using the full blend of melee combos that they weren't before, they're now actually using about 80% more of the melee functions that exist (even though more options existed previously), and noticing the problems that only players like you and I noticed before now. With that, and the potential that the next step holds, I think it's going to be better than what we have now again, but just... maybe not in the way you want it to be.

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6 hours ago, Nichivo said:

That's all speculation. I'm not about to start counting chickens before they hatch. How can you claim the new system is better? When did you last play the new system? My opinion on the current system stands, it's really broken and less engaging than the previous system. I currently can't bind my secondary or primary separately, and I am not in the habit of picking up the wrong tool for the job, so that I can later pick up the correct tool with the same key.

Case in point. Shoot an enemy with your pistol, equip melee, then aim and back to pistol you go. However! Shoot an enemy with your pistol, then equip your scanner, then go to melee and aim and whoopsie is that your primary you just whipped out? The current system is horribly broken. 

 

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, it is, but those are quite easily fixable problems and the only reason that they haven't been is because of the changes coming. As in a 'why fix them when they're not going to be there later?' kind of attitude.

On the other hand, we didn't even have this much functionality before. Think about it, you had to manually switch to melee before you could even use a combo, and when you switched back it was the same situation. The scanner bringing you back to Primary happened before, but there was an extra key-press in the way if you were in melee mode so it wasn't as apparent or as reported as it is under the current system. And yes, it was reported, I put in a report about it specifically.

As a point, I don't claim the new system is better, I claim the current system is actually better than the previous because now you don't have to differentiate between 'quick melee' and actual melee, that the freedom to actually switch between guns and melee instantly is a definite step in the right direction, and propose that, based on that step, the next step should be better.

With all the broken things, I do hold the view that this is better. And it's not because it makes melee better than it was previously, but because it makes the entire function of playing the game with guns and melee better than it was.

See, you're approaching this as somebody who is trying to make exclusively melee improvements, because you're seeing the removal of a player's agency on a particular, singular part of it as negative to melee. What you're not seeing, because of that, is the overall game improvement that's come despite it.

More players are using the full blend of melee combos that they weren't before, they're now actually using about 80% more of the melee functions that exist (even though more options existed previously), and noticing the problems that only players like you and I noticed before now. With that, and the potential that the next step holds, I think it's going to be better than what we have now again, but just... maybe not in the way you want it to be.

I've really enjoyed reading both of your arguments. I agree with a lot of what both of you pointed out.

@Nichivo, I also use pause combos even today. As an example, I love the heck out of my Ninkondi Prime and the pause combo for that is simply divine. In the old system, I actively used the manual block function any time I was using my melee. I didn't really enjoy the quick melee because it was a bit bland so I would typically switch to it. And I completely agree with your point about the current system being broken. I have to actually think about what weapon I'm about to equip from melee let alone gear like the scanners, and that should certainly not be a thing in a fluid combat system. I do however believe that the current system brings a lot of good to the plate. Switching from primary/secondary to melee instantly as we do now is a wonderful change in my opinion. My only issue with it right now is how we switch back to the previous weapon.

@Birdframe_Prime, I for one couldn't care any less what happens to channeling and the combo counter. Channeling is just too much cost with too little reward. People typically want to use their energy for something else and for good reason. Heck, even with my Valkyr heavy tank build, I usually reserve my energy for Quick Thinking just in case I take a massive hit from out of nowhere. The only time I ever use channeling is with Dispatch Overdrive. With the melee update that will be coming to us, I can't see it being very difficult to adapt Dispatch Overdrive to the changes if channeling leaves. The combo counter is certainly a powerful effect, but I agree that it is not very engaging. I just find myself spinning with an Atterax if I care about getting it to high numbers. I'm not sure however if the proposed replacement mechanic is anymore engaging. It'll depend on the final implementation. As for manual blocking, I strongly believe that it's a necessary function to have. Being able to choose when you want to block is very engaging, and I used it frequently under the previous system. Blocking itself has too many positives not to use. At the lowest, you are given a 35% damage reduction bonus which applies separately from other damage mitigation, making it very powerful. In high levels, having this damage mitigation can seriously help with surviving. Having to spam parkour maneuvers to stay alive as a tanky warframe does not make me feel like a tanky warframe. As a max armor Valkyr with Adaptation, Quick Thinking, Rage, and Hunter Adrenaline, I expect to be able to take a lot of damage even with enemies well past level 100. Being able to block with a sword and shield that offers 85 or even 90 percent damage reduction on top of everything else is necessary to achieve such a thing. What's more is that there are mods that give actual tank mechanics to sword and shield like Electromagnetic Shielding and Guardian Derision. With these mods, being a tank in the team can mean being an actual tank. Not only will you survive but you can help mitigate damage away from your less tanky squadmates like a true tank is supposed to do, directly and effectively influencing your squad in a positive way.

All in all, I think that DE has done a lot of good with the current system. I just think it is a bad move to permanently remove manual blocking because it offers too much benefit to players for them to do so. With these two changes I proposed, we could have the best of both worlds. Is it really that much of a hassle to double-click a button when you want to immediately shoot your primary/secondary from melee? No. We double-click stuff all the time. It takes about 1/10 of a second to double-click a button, if that. Also, is clicking LMB, then holding RMB to immediately aim really that difficult? No, not really. And it takes about the same amount of time as a double-click, next to no time at all. I really think that this change would make a lot of people happy. Plus, I hate immediately firing my primary/secondary from melee with just one click. It feels really unnatural. Not to mention if I'm using Vicious Swap, I don't want to keep firing my weapon off to get the buff.

Edited by Qwertykeys

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On 2019-10-16 at 1:16 AM, Teridax68 said:

100 ms just to be able to start attacking is a huge delay compared to being able to attack instantly, and once again we have the current and previous combat systems to highlight just how clunky it was to have to manually switch weapons before attacking each time. It doesn't matter how easy your solution is to implement here if it's not going to be smooth: what you're messing with here is a core aspect of the game's feel, so if it's not right, might as well not do it at all.

Whaaa? Not to bash your comment, but you are comparing 100ms, literally 1/10 of a second, to the old way of swapping to melee which required you to hold the swap button down for at least that much time then wait for the swap animation to complete before you could start attacking with your melee. The timing simply isn't comparable. Heck, humans blink slower than 1/10 of a second. Plus, my proposal doesn't change the way the current system swaps from primary/secondary to melee. That would still be instant with the attack. It feels natural as it is. The proposal is just to change what happens when hitting the primary fire button to switch back to the previous weapon.

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10 hours ago, Xarteros said:

I just want DE to make an option to use melee the way we used to (hold to swap and stay swapped). Then, replacing the quick melee, you could make a quickshot alternate keybinding that just shoots your sidearm and returns to melee.

I play a lot of valkyr, and I used to have LMB for Melee Attacks, RMB for Block, and E for Melee Channeling. Mashing quick-melee is considerably more strenuous on your hand than rapid clicking, and it makes it harder to control your character's movement as smoothly.

It doesn't help that I've got a twitchy right hand, and I often randomly left or right click without meaning to. Currently, that means that my melee instantly gets thrown away and I start shooting my gun (or aiming it, at the least), which breaks the flow of combat, wastes ammo from my gun's magazine, and negates the invulnerability effect of Hysteria (since the invuln only applies with your claws drawn). Personal quirks aside, I feel like there are a lot of other players who'd rather be able to make Melee their primary combat form, and have a quickshot system, rather than be gun-focused with quick melee.

I agree with you that having melee attacks such as Warframe's mapped to a key is strenuous. Personally, I use an Xbox controller with my melee mapped to RB (default is B but I remapped ability activation to that instead) so it is quite effortless for me. The only suggestion I could make to you would be to get a cheap mouse that has extra buttons. Cheap ones do exist, and it would alleviate a lot of the strain for you.

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2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

See, you're approaching this as somebody who is trying to make exclusively melee improvements, because you're seeing the removal of a player's agency on a particular, singular part of it as negative to melee. What you're not seeing, because of that, is the overall game improvement that's come despite it.

More players are using the full blend of melee combos that they weren't before.

 It has everything to do with right tool for the job on demand. I play games on PC, because I want more control not less. The current system is like being hired to build a house, and pouring the foundation without any Rebar.

More players had their option of how to play melee removed from them, because they now have less options. So obviously more are going to accidentally trigger a combo. Forced engagement, is not real engagement. The absolutely needed a few tweaks, but masterfully crafted, and brilliant system, has been replaced with.atari.jpg

@Qwertykeys 

The Ninkondi  combos and animations are bar none, ome of my favorite. I feel like a bunch of the change are not aimed at pc players, and having controls ripped from you when you have a mouse and keyboard is frustrating. I want more control we have bind modifiers like shift +, ctrl +, alt + etc . It's not like I am running out of keys.

For that matter why can't we pc players get the ability to bind Combos. modifier + 1,2,3,4,5,6. combos on demand omg it's the end of days.🤓

 

Edited by Nichivo

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@Nichivo I understand that lol. I used to play with mouse and keyboard, but I've switched to using an Xbox controller even though I still play on PC. It's just more ergonomic for me, and I don't have to be bound to one position. Mouse and keyboard is awesome though for sure. And you're right, it is certainly hindered by the number of buttons on a controller since both formats have to be considered. I don't think the controller lacks the number of buttons necessary for both formats to feel comfortably full of controls though. When it comes to controllers, you have to be a bit more creative with the mappings. The changes I mentioned would certainly do the trick.

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47 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

The absolutely needed a few tweaks, but masterfully crafted, and brilliant system, has been replaced with.

But has it though? I'm looking back on everything we had, from Sword Alone update until Melee 2.9 and my honest thought is... wow, there is some serious need to fix this.

Far from tweaks, the system we had before 2.9 actually felt very clunky, we only ever had one melee button (which is where my confusion at your image comes in), the Heavy Attacks were only possible by a false-swing first, the blocking is completely mono-directional in a horde-based game, and it even felt like the damage reduction was just an arbitrary function thrown on because actual blocking of damage would have been too powerful (despite warframes plainly doing it in the cinematics of the time).

The combos don't really make sense, in terms of what they're for, like Clashing Forest, which has a fantastic mobile combo and a stationary multi-hit combo that have their inputs the wrong way round, where the basic standing combo covers ground with big radial swings, while the 'advancing' combo barely moves and has the better focused damage.

And there's even weird ones like Carving Mantis (honestly the best stance and saviour of the Dual Swords in my eyes) with a... sideways... movement in it's combo string...? Given how fast a Warframe can move, that really can throw off the aim there. Or at least it does for me.

Even past that, I genuinely found that unless you actually built for Melee overall, with a frame to support it and went into a game with intent to use it almost exclusively, then it wasn't enjoyable. Now, at least, when I go into a mission I know that anytime I want a high-damage combo from my melee to compliment a bunch of procs or to get a target out of my face, I can immediately begin it. And if I'm floating around as Zephyr, for example, and my Turbulence is coming to an end, I can swing my melee and prepare to recast while knowing I do have an automatic damage reduction function right there to prevent accidents. And it does actually protect me through the animation too, which is fun.

While Sword Alone's updates were a metric leap forward on the melee front... the system was, and still isn't that great. Not for what we actually do in Warframe. And the more I actually consider what DE's proposed, the more I really just want to try it out.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

The combos don't really make sense, in terms of what they're for, like Clashing Forest, which has a fantastic mobile combo and a stationary multi-hit combo that have their inputs the wrong way round, where the basic standing combo covers ground with big radial swings, while the 'advancing' combo barely moves and has the better focused damage.

This is where I am going to disagree again. Clashing forest is the reason I prefer using Keewar(stave) to the Kripath(polearm), Battering Roots, and Resolute Flurry have been friends of mine since the bow prime days, Flailing Branch which is the stance that fit the default polarity was a tad lack luster with the exception of Rising Fall. Hell if I could use Clashing Forest for Wukongs stave, I would be in heaven. I even have a post about that somewhere around this place.

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@Birdframe_Prime @Nichivo @Qwertykeys Just a simple question. Have you tried to use Glaive with a new... welp, let's not call it new system cuz it is derivate from old system for mentally handicapped?

Well I was very surprised by the mere fact you can only throw glaive one single time being in air before landing (took a month for me to understand). And those "dual wield" tricks when you can't reload after switching from melee...

I don't even see a hint or clue of translation to the melee 3.0 in this mess, it is just horrible.

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4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But has it though? I'm looking back on everything we had, from Sword Alone update until Melee 2.9 and my honest thought is... wow, there is some serious need to fix this.

Far from tweaks, the system we had before 2.9 actually felt very clunky, we only ever had one melee button (which is where my confusion at your image comes in), the Heavy Attacks were only possible by a false-swing first, the blocking is completely mono-directional in a horde-based game, and it even felt like the damage reduction was just an arbitrary function thrown on because actual blocking of damage would have been too powerful (despite warframes plainly doing it in the cinematics of the time).

The combos don't really make sense, in terms of what they're for, like Clashing Forest, which has a fantastic mobile combo and a stationary multi-hit combo that have their inputs the wrong way round, where the basic standing combo covers ground with big radial swings, while the 'advancing' combo barely moves and has the better focused damage.

And there's even weird ones like Carving Mantis (honestly the best stance and saviour of the Dual Swords in my eyes) with a... sideways... movement in it's combo string...? Given how fast a Warframe can move, that really can throw off the aim there. Or at least it does for me.

Even past that, I genuinely found that unless you actually built for Melee overall, with a frame to support it and went into a game with intent to use it almost exclusively, then it wasn't enjoyable. Now, at least, when I go into a mission I know that anytime I want a high-damage combo from my melee to compliment a bunch of procs or to get a target out of my face, I can immediately begin it. And if I'm floating around as Zephyr, for example, and my Turbulence is coming to an end, I can swing my melee and prepare to recast while knowing I do have an automatic damage reduction function right there to prevent accidents. And it does actually protect me through the animation too, which is fun.

While Sword Alone's updates were a metric leap forward on the melee front... the system was, and still isn't that great. Not for what we actually do in Warframe. And the more I actually consider what DE's proposed, the more I really just want to try it out.

 

3 hours ago, Nichivo said:

This is where I am going to disagree again. Clashing forest is the reason I prefer using Keewar(stave) to the Kripath(polearm), Battering Roots, and Resolute Flurry have been friends of mine since the bow prime days, Flailing Branch which is the stance that fit the default polarity was a tad lack luster with the exception of Rising Fall. Hell if I could use Clashing Forest for Wukongs stave, I would be in heaven. I even have a post about that somewhere around this place.

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but you guys have strayed from the topic of the thread a bit. Sure, there are always improvements that can be done to any game or application. I'm just trying to get the idea out there that this solution would be simple, easy to implement, and would give everyone what many of us miss from the old system, manual blocking and aim gliding with melee. And in turn it would make swapping weapons feel more intuitive.

Edited by Qwertykeys

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I like this idea a lot. For as much as I like Melee 2.99 overall (I very much enjoy being able to mix gun and blade combos together), auto-block is a problem IMO. Whilst I'd ordinarily be able to get over the 'feel' issues if it was objectively better, auto-block tends to cause problems in control - namely, charge attacks and aim-glide. It will activate when trying to charge, or when shot in mid-air, leading to them interrupting normal gameplay.

I feel like this system would be a fairly elegant solution.

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6 hours ago, Qwertykeys said:

I'm just trying to get the idea out there that this solution would be simple, easy to implement, and would give everyone what many of us miss from the old system, manual blocking and aim gliding with melee. And in turn it would make swapping weapons feel more intuitive.

You may, in fact, be right.

My point to that is actually something I've mentioned already; almost all of the problems with the system would be easy to fix. They aren't because 'why fix them when there's a massive mainline update planned for it anyway?' which will no doubt break it all in completely different ways.

So sure, I can take the proposal and say it could be good.

DE won't, because they're doing something else right now and I suggest putting a pin in this until after they've done it in case they forget to fix this at the same time.

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8 hours ago, Miyabi-sama said:

@Birdframe_Prime @Nichivo @Qwertykeys Just a simple question. Have you tried to use Glaive with a new... welp, let's not call it new system cuz it is derivate from old system for mentally handicapped?

Well I was very surprised by the mere fact you can only throw glaive one single time being in air before landing (took a month for me to understand). And those "dual wield" tricks when you can't reload after switching from melee...

I don't even see a hint or clue of translation to the melee 3.0 in this mess, it is just horrible.

Glaive before our current system was my top used melee. It's dropped to third since 2.9 or whatever they are calling this train wreck. I still use it on occasion with my zakti or rattleguts, mostly my rattleguts which is built for one purpose 7 instant statuses.

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The thing with double-tap for controls is that like hold button, it is inherently not a good control for what's a FUNCTION in the game. It can work for what are skill-based elements such as combos in fighting games or character action games, but for a function they present more of a pointless detriment, especially if you tie them to another function. This is basically why all the "hold to get on horse" controls are inherently annoying, because a single press should do the same thing. This is why ultimately either resuming the old switch system with added hip shot switch (because this works, even if it does prevent hold channeling, but there's no telling what's going to happen to channeling either) or maintain current system but add for reload to switch to equipped weapon is an alternative, but regardless it is the conflict between function (switching weapon) and a critical function (being able to combo properly, having control over your glide, etc) is why RMB simply has to be taken out of the weapon switch and thus zoom matter.

Double-tap is also a worse control for functions than hold is. Double-tap is something you can do wrong on two levels, either by accidentally pressing twice (or worse, letting go of the button too early and repressing it because you want to block in case of this game) but can also fail to press it right. Single button press is ultimately the best way to handle what are functions, and in case of switching weaponry it's absolutely crucial to keep it simple.

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22 hours ago, Qwertykeys said:

Whaaa? Not to bash your comment, but you are comparing 100ms, literally 1/10 of a second, to the old way of swapping to melee which required you to hold the swap button down for at least that much time then wait for the swap animation to complete before you could start attacking with your melee. The timing simply isn't comparable. Heck, humans blink slower than 1/10 of a second. Plus, my proposal doesn't change the way the current system swaps from primary/secondary to melee. That would still be instant with the attack. It feels natural as it is. The proposal is just to change what happens when hitting the primary fire button to switch back to the previous weapon.

A tenth of a second is massive in terms of reaction time, as the average human reaction time is 0.25 seconds, meaning that if you add your 1/10 second delay to that, you're already increasing reaction lag by 40%. The fact that this lag isn't even carried over both ways between guns and melee simply makes the system inconsistent in addition to being clunkier than what we have now. Why not even apply the thing to melee as well?

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Well, now we know.

 

I'm not 100% happy with the proposed system, but, like... 75%? Which is definitely fine since this is a multiplayer game, you can't please everyone. Compromises and whatnot.

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