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(XB1)KayAitch

Acceltra vs Akarius

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Both these weapons have ammo issues.

This is a problem in Warframe generally, as most of the solutions (ammo mutations, Carrier, etc) only boost the currently equipped weapon.

So run out of ammo on primary, switch to secondary, now you're turning all ammo packs into secondary, when you run out your primary is also still out of ammo.

These are Gauss's signature kit, but you can't take both, you have to take one and pair it with something better on ammo. They fight each other for ammo.

One of these weapons needs to become much more ammo efficient.

I'd recommend the Akarius, as it's the weaker weapon. Double the magazine size, quadruple the max ammo capacity, and make it so ammo packs give 20 shots.

This isn't going to make the Akarius OP, but will make it a weapon that plays nice with the Acceltra.

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You can always go for the rest 100+ weapons the game offers. I mean its clear that meta weapons exist and for good reason they are meta, and these are not meta. Even if they do fix these weapons the other 100 or so would be still weak who dont fall in the meta category so it wont fix much

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1 minute ago, Lazarow said:

You can always go for the rest 100+ weapons the game offers. I mean its clear that meta weapons exist and for good reason they are meta, and these are not meta. Even if they do fix these weapons the other 100 or so would be still weak who dont fall in the meta category so it wont fix much

Yes, there are other weapons, I usually take them. Not really my point.

These are Gauss's signature kit, they should work well together, they don't, that wouldn't be hard to fix.

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DE thinks Akarius is powerful hence no need so much ammo. lol

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My thoughts from a previous topic on this:

On 2019-09-28 at 8:19 PM, NinjaZeku said:

I'm still a bit confused how people have "proper" Ammo issues with Acceltra, TBH.

A single Rifle Ammo pickup, the most common Ammo drop, restores 60 Ammo, more than a full magazine's worth.

If you can't kill a few enemies in a single magazine to get an Ammo drop or two, like,
are you just piling on +Fire Rate Mods or something, instead of stuff that makes each shot more deadly?

And even if you do run out, just switch to another weapon for like 5 seconds, that should be enough to get Ammo drops already.

Mind, a Magazine Size / Max Ammo increase for Akarius (or even both) I wouldn't exactly be against,
the Secondary does feel kinda off TBH, compared to how nicely Acceltra (or e.g. Staticor, heh) performs.

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Quote

One of these weapons needs to become much more ammo efficient.

why? because you can't use a couple particular Weapons together? "Signature Weapons" doesn't even really mean anything, as most of the pairings are paper thin connections or even just make no particular sense at all.
let's see.... the only "Signature Weapons" that actually match the Warframes that they are paired with(meaning that the functionality of the Weapons has some relation with the Warframe) are...

  • Atlas & Tekko (though, at the same time it seems like it might be redundant considering that Atlas has an Ability Weapon similar to it)
  • Banshee & Euphona 
  • Gara & Astilla (Fusilai and Volnus effectively don't even have a theme to pair with)
  • Harrow & Knell (no, Scourge doesn't count just by having a gimmick for Headshot redirection that you never actually use in normal Gameplay)

here's a couple honorable mentions that are weak connections but kinda sort work.

  • Mirage & AkZani (a spray and pray Weapon and Hall of Mirrors is a spray and pray Ability)
  • Revenant & Phantasma+Tatsu (both 'shoot Sentient Energy of some sort all over the place')

 

and FWIW, if Mutation Mods aren't enough for you, Scavenger Auras are significantly more powerful and you don't even have to lose Weapon Damage for them. :)

Edited by taiiat

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3 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

My thoughts from a previous topic on this:

On 2019-09-28 at 7:19 PM, NinjaZeku said:

I'm still a bit confused how people have "proper" Ammo issues with Acceltra, TBH.

The Acceltra has minor issues. I find it's mostly OK if you don't boost its fire rate, but bring a Gauss or Wisp and it runs out immediately.

The Akarius has severe issues. It's otherwise a nice weapon, well suited to Gauss shooting while blasing past at crazy speeds.

With either you need to pair it with a weapon that doesn't have ammo economy issues. Bring both pick up a Haste Mote and you're out of ammo on both before it runs out.

10 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

And even if you do run out, just switch to another weapon for like 5 seconds, that should be enough to get Ammo drops already

That works (though more like 30-45s depending on enemy drops), but only if that second weapon isn't running any kind of ammo mutation. Akarius needs that to shoot more than 10 times.

The Acceltra is ok, but can't be paired with the Akarius. That feels off given they're part of a signature set.

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14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

why? because you can't use a couple particular Weapons together?

Yes. They sell the set to newbie players, it should work as a loadout.

14 minutes ago, taiiat said:

"Signature Weapons" doesn't even really mean anything

I wonder why that is? Maybe if they listened to feedback and made these weapons work better with their frames the whole concept would mean more.

16 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Atlas & Tekko (though, at the same time it seems like it might be redundant considering that Atlas has an Ability Weapon similar to it)

Tekko gets a status boost with Atlas. Tekko Prime doesn't, that might be a bug.

17 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Revenant & Phantasma+Tatsu (both 'shoot Sentient Energy of some sort all over the place')

Phantasma gets a magazine increase that boosts it's secondary fire significantly. Tatsu gets more of its projectiles.

Most of the signature weapons either work nicely with the rest of the bundle, or actively benefit. 

Acceltra and Akarius are the only set that actively work less well together.

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

and FWIW, if Mutation Mods aren't enough for you, Scavenger Auras are significantly more powerful and you don't even have to lose Weapon Damage for them. 🙂

Indirectly, you do lose damage by not having corrosive projection equipped.

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Both weapons revolve around you moving. Their low ammo economy is easily offset by both their power and by you moving around the map constantly replenishing ammo. The fact that their reloads go faster as you move is also proof of that.

Out of ammo on Acceltra? Switch to Akarius for a few seconds and move your behind a bit through the map. Acceltra will be full again in no time. This is a non-issue and I'd count myself happy that their "only" issue is their ammo, for everything they already do.

Edited by (PS4)Hikuro-93

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48 minutes ago, DoomFruit said:
2 hours ago, taiiat said:

and FWIW, if Mutation Mods aren't enough for you, Scavenger Auras are significantly more powerful and you don't even have to lose Weapon Damage for them. 🙂

Indirectly, you do lose damage by not having corrosive projection equipped

Yeah, and you can't equip Rifle Scavenger and Pistol Scavenger at the same time, so the two weapons are still not complementary - you take one or the other.

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Both weapons revolve around you moving. Their low ammo economy is easily offset by both their power and by you moving around the map constantly replenishing ammo

You don't get more ammo by moving more, you get more ammo from more kills, and while both weapons work at longer range the vast majority of kills are going to happen in Vacuum/Fetch range.

What you can do is bring a Pilfering Khora/Hydroid, Nekros or Chesa Kubrow and rely on double-looting. That does help, but for Nekros/Chesa you have to stay near the corpses, and for Khora/Hydroid the kills have to be in your AoE, in any of those you stay pretty static.

I've tried Gauss+Chesa, you have to loop back on yourself a lot to make sure that you're still in range when the Chesa's double loot ability fires. It works in some maps, but hardly at all in open worlds.

Both Acceltra and Akarius suit Gauss's run+gun style (although he is fast enough to regularly blow himself up with the Acceltra, self damage is a whole other issue) but while his reload buff is nice he runs out of ammo really fast with both. Fire his redline, fire Acceltra until it runs out, fire Akarius until it runs out, and you still have some redline left.

Two ammo-issue guns on a frame whose powers boost fire rate is just clunky.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yes. They sell the set to newbie players, it should work as a loadout.

I wonder why that is?

 

Tekko gets a status boost with Atlas. Tekko Prime doesn't, that might be a bug.
Phantasma gets a magazine increase that boosts it's secondary fire significantly. Tatsu gets more of its projectiles.

Most of the signature weapons either work nicely with the rest of the bundle, or actively benefit. 

Acceltra and Akarius are the only set that actively work less well together.

so then what about Prime Access? almost no Weapons have ever made sense together with the Warframes they came with. and what about a Companion? how does a Companion even have anything to do with a particular Warframe.

because there's no shortage of Weapons that aren't very different from the other ones, would be my answer. essentially a Skin.

 

Stat changes is irrelevant, that has nothing to do with themes. Tekko Phantasma and Tatsu work there because the functionality and styles of them atleast somewhat match the Warframes that they are supposed to be special with. the actual Stat changes is whatever.

most of the 'Signature Weapons' have nothing to do with the Warframes they've been tied to.

who's even to say that Acceltra and Akarius don't work well together. if we want to use your own logic, since Gauss is a Warframe build around speed, and has a Holster Speed Bonus, maybe the """theme""" is for you to change Weapons often while moving fast and Killing fast.
there, i've turned the tables on you and used your own justification against you. though only because it ended up fitting.

2 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Indirectly, you do lose damage by not having corrosive projection equipped.

this isn't U7 anymore, Stats have inflated more than plenty to make many ways to Kill Enemies quickly than just that one Mod.

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4 minutes ago, taiiat said:

this isn't U7 anymore, Stats have inflated more than plenty to make many ways to Kill Enemies quickly than just that one Mod.

Reducing armour still reduces the number of shots to kill, something directly complementary to DPS. While corrosive procs will help, the acceltra isn't going to proc and the akarius has such a pitiful ammo reserve that you won't get very far trying to strip armour with acid procs. Sure, you could use shattering impact... but by that time you're already in melee range, at which point a) you might as well just keep swording the enemy, b) you could also use acid on your sword and c) neither of the Gauss weapons are going to do anything at point blank range.

The point is, not using corrosive projection against anything armoured will increase their HP pool. That means more shots to kill which could well outweigh the benefit of getting more ammo from the scavenger mod. And since enemies stay alive longer, you get exposed to more return fire.

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1 minute ago, DoomFruit said:

-snip-

The point is, not using corrosive projection against anything armoured will increase their HP pool. That means more shots to kill which could well outweigh the benefit of getting more ammo from the scavenger mod. And since enemies stay alive longer, you get exposed to more return fire.

the only other things you could think of are the same type of effect? our Stats have inflated in far more ways than just that. you should know that.

you won't have to shoot >2.5x less often by adding one Corrosive Projection (more). that isn't even a contest there, except in the case of 3 vs 4 and then optimizing Damage against Health because of it. 

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6 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

The Acceltra has minor issues. I find it's mostly OK if you don't boost its fire rate, but bring a Gauss or Wisp and it runs out immediately.

But like, if your Fire Rate is boosted, why not just use shorter bursts of fire? Trigger discipline, yo 😛

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1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the only other things you could think of are the same type of effect? our Stats have inflated in far more ways than just that. you should know that.

you won't have to shoot >2.5x less often by adding one Corrosive Projection (more). that isn't even a contest there, except in the case of 3 vs 4 and then optimizing Damage against Health because of it. 

I did not know that scavenger auras gave you 2.5x the ammo per pickup. I always thought it was a lot lower than that - something more in line with the other aura mods.

That's actually very significant. Their very low ammo capacity is still a problem in that you're going to rapidly empty your ammo reserve, then you can only refill 2/3 of your ammo pool if the weapon's not equipped while you wander around for more bullets. Then you pull out the gun and have to sit through the akarius's horribly long reload time, and then you need to go and find more ammo before you're at max.

Edited by DoomFruit

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2 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

But like, if your Fire Rate is boosted, why not just use shorter bursts of fire? Trigger discipline, yo

Yes, let's get a powerful buff, and then slow down and avoid using it. Gauss's weapons should benefit from Gauss's buff.

But yes, I wouldn't mod either for fire rate.

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

who's even to say that Acceltra and Akarius don't work well together. if we want to use your own logic, since Gauss is a Warframe build around speed, and has a Holster Speed Bonus, maybe the """theme""" is for you to change Weapons often while moving fast and Killing fast.
there, i've turned the tables on you and used your own justification against you. though only because it ended up fitting

Unless you're using the mod where you reload on holster that makes no difference. Run out on Acceltra, switch to Akarius fire 5 shots, reload, fire 5 more, switch back to Acceltra and oh it's still empty. Or if you got lucky maybe you have 1 reload, but that runs out quick and Akarius is still empty.

Nobody takes 2 ammo hungry weapons to anything except Capture missions.

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

you won't have to shoot >2.5x less often by adding one Corrosive Projection (more). that isn't even a contest there, except in the case of 3 vs 4 and then optimizing Damage against Health because of it. 

Yeah, Scavenger mods can help either weapon, at the cost of the 4x Corrosive Projection team you need for most lvl 200+ content, but it's beside the point.

You can have either Pistol Scavenger OR Rifle Scavenger, but not both and neither entirely fixes the ammo economy.

Yeah, I can cope with either of their poor ammo economies, but not both at the same time.

And that's the problem - that they both have the same issue, and all the solutions to that problem fix one or the other but not both.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

so then what about Prime Access? almost no Weapons have ever made sense together with the Warframes they came with. and what about a Companion? how does a Companion even have anything to do with a particular Warframe

Prime access is a little different, it's less of a set-designed-as-a-set as just a combination of primable things that come up together. We were due another prime sentinel, so it got lumped with Atlas (my guess is that Titania is soon and putting a sentinel with her would be almost as stupid as making one of her abilities buff companions).

Signature weapons are a little different - or at least they try to be, this is definitely something that DE have gotten better at (I mean, Mirage's pistols suck).

Some sets have frame buffs (including this one), some have synergies (Knell+Harrow for headshot dominance) and some just look nice with the frame (I love the Tenora, but spool up makes matching the beat to buff Octavia's 3 impossible) but this is the only either/or.

 

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5 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

Their very low ammo capacity is still a problem in that you're going to rapidly empty your ammo reserve, then you can only refill 2/3 of your ammo pool if the weapon's not equipped while you wander around for more bullets. Then you pull out the gun and have to sit through the akarius's horribly long reload time, and then you need to go and find more ammo before you're at max.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i would use Synth Set to help with that (well, more like i always have Synth Set anyways), but yeah the comical Reload would still be an obstacle.

2 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Unless you're using the mod where you reload on holster that makes no difference. Run out on Acceltra, switch to Akarius fire 5 shots, reload, fire 5 more, switch back to Acceltra and oh it's still empty. Or if you got lucky maybe you have 1 reload, but that runs out quick and Akarius is still empty.

Yeah, Scavenger mods can help either weapon, at the cost of the 4x Corrosive Projection team you need for most lvl 200+ content, but it's beside the point.

well, it's convenient then that Gauss provides two forms of Reload Speed Bonus to the Weapons, then.

how is that beside the point? is it because it's a way to compensate for Ammunition that you don't want to deal with? you made a Thread about Ammunition, and that's one of the existing methods to deal with Ammunition. don't move the goalposts.

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Acceltra is by now my main primary weapon. I use it literally everywhere, so much that I have to force myself to use other weapons sometimes or I'll get bored too quickly.

I literally have no issue whatsoever with ammo on it. And I use it on both Gauss and Harrow. Keep moving, use short burst, reload between enemy groups to pickup some ammo on the floor. You don't need ammo mutation, nor a carrier, nor any of this crap. Even on Arbitration, Acceltra does just fine for a good 45 minutes at least (after that, scaling starts getting a bit too harsh for destroying drones with it, unless you have a riven. I don't.).

 

But I don't pair it with Akarius, Akarius that I find way more weak and too random. I use other status secondaries instead. Like Quatz, Pyrana or Marelok.

Edited by Isokaze_BestKaze

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4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yes, let's get a powerful buff, and then slow down and avoid using it.

... no, you just stop shooting at the already dead enemy and find a new target.

That's improved performance thanks to a buff, right there.

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7 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

no, you just stop shooting at the already dead enemy and find a new target

Because so much of my time in Warframe is spent fighting a single enemy 😉

7 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

That's improved performance thanks to a buff, right there.

Yes, OK, you can improve burst damage even on a low ammo weapon.

But that's fairly specific to the weapon and situation.

For the Akarius it doesn't really matter - you need a macro to fire it quick enough and it has 10 shots total.

For the Acceltra we have an explosive AoE that only works at medium range and higher - it's clearly not a weapon that's about killing one enemy, it's about clearing rooms. By the time you get to a level where you have to focus Acceltra fire on one enemy it's stopped being effective. It also tends to knock enemies about a lot without killing them.

In practice with the Acceltra you run about with a fair bit of chaos, and with Gauss you redline, and then it's run out so you switch to secondary, grab a few ammo packs and switch back.

It's not a problem, it's very manageable and all it needs is a solid secondary.

The Akarius is not that. It's hard MR fodder (which is fine, most weapons are) but specifically weak in the area the Acceltra needs a secondary to be good for.

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On 2019-10-14 at 10:37 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Because so much of my time in Warframe is spent fighting a single enemy 😉

Yes, OK, you can improve burst damage even on a low ammo weapon.

But that's fairly specific to the weapon and situation.

For the Akarius it doesn't really matter - you need a macro to fire it quick enough and it has 10 shots total.

For the Acceltra we have an explosive AoE that only works at medium range and higher - it's clearly not a weapon that's about killing one enemy, it's about clearing rooms. By the time you get to a level where you have to focus Acceltra fire on one enemy it's stopped being effective. It also tends to knock enemies about a lot without killing them.

In practice with the Acceltra you run about with a fair bit of chaos, and with Gauss you redline, and then it's run out so you switch to secondary, grab a few ammo packs and switch back.

It's not a problem, it's very manageable and all it needs is a solid secondary.

The Akarius is not that. It's hard MR fodder (which is fine, most weapons are) but specifically weak in the area the Acceltra needs a secondary to be good for.

It's weird enough but while this weapon sucks on high levels, it can kill a 155 demolist machinist faster than other weapons.

Edited by bibmobello

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