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keikogi

Frost Rework

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Frost used to be the king of defense missions. Over time more ways to defend appeared on the game and frost, frost isn’t even the best option for defense anymore. So, thought of a rework to improve his ability and give him better defense capabilities and more overall uses for his skills. I don’t think his 3 and 4 need changes but his passive, 1 and 2 really need some help.


After receiving some feedback I’ve noticed some people are fine with really small changes just to bring up these skills, other people want to redesign it from the ground up, so the skill is more versatile and fun. So, I’ve decided to include both a conservative update and complete redesign as an alternative (under spoiler tabs) 
 

Passive

It is bad, you shouldn’t expose yourself to melee damage, and since the passive has 10% chance of procing it is not likely to protect frost from melee damage.

Passive 2.0  

Enemies on a 30 meters radius from Frost are affected by his chilling presence, the effect is stronger the closer the enemies get from Frost.

30 m- 5 % slow

20 m- 10 % slow

10 m- 15 % slow

5 m-30 % slow

 

1. Freeze (Old)

This skill is useless, why single target CC even exists in this game if any enemy worthy of single target crow control is immune to Crow control. Furthermore, the small ice path it leaves is a joke.

1. Ice lance (Update) 

Spoiler

Launches a targeted projectile, this projectile will freeze any enemies in contact with it. This projectile has unlimited punch trough against enemies but will stop on contact with wall or ground leaving an ice patch. Enemies frozen by this skill will shatter (they die) upon losing half of their health

1.True Ice Glaive ( Redesign )

Spoiler

Tap

Frost launches a glaive of true ice. Upon contact with an enemy this glaive will freeze this enemy for 15 seconds ( if this enemy was already frozen by avalanche the avalanche freeze duration will be extende by 15 seconds ). Enemies frozen by this glaive will shatter( they just die ) if they lose half of their health while frozen. This glaive will has unlimited bounces but only bounces to enemies affected by cold procs or affected by any other frost skill ( ice wave, snow globe or avalanche). Upon returning to frost , frost gains 7 energy per enemy hit by this glaive.

Charge 

Infuses the glaive with enemy , upon contact with the first enemy or ground. The glaive will stop on that place and start spining faster. The glaive create a small blizzard aroud itself ( this just a copy of zenistar disk but it deal cold damage ). Recasting this skill will recall the glaive and once again Frost gains 7 energy per enemy hit by this attack ). If an enemy dies inside this blizzard it will have its damage incresed by a portions of that enemy health.

Note: only bounces if there are valid targets(affected by cold procs or other frost skills) within reach.

 

2.Ice Wave (Old) 

This skill suffers of redundancy. Why use Ice wave for CC when you can just use avalanche instead. This skill needs a new role.

2. Ice Wave 2.0 (Update) 

Spoiler

Just make Ice wave impedance argument the default skill. increased range and duration. Add , Frost can quickly slide over Frozen ground but will walk normally over it.

Note: this way Ice wave is about area denial and Avalanche about AOE CC.

SynergyTM

Casting Ice lance on an enemy slowed by Ice Wave will freeze all enemies slowed by this Ice Wave.

 

2. Ice Wave 2.0 (Redesign) 

Spoiler

Tap

The same as old Ice wave but Ice wave impedance argument is part of the default skill. Increased range and duration. Add, Frost can quickly slide over Frozen ground but will walk normally over it.

Hold

Frost Freezes the ground in front of himself and quickly slides over it. Works like Gauss’s 1 but it slower and leaves Frozen Ground Behind.  Something like this

SerenePoliticalLarva-size_restricted.gif

Note: you can cast this skill mid air and this will result on frost creating a ice path on middle of the air, allies can walk of this frozen path.

 

3. Snow Globe (Old)

This skill is good, I will add a new function because I want Frost to able to safely leave snow globe.

3. Snow Globe 2.0 (Update)

Tap

Same as it is now

Hold

Create a Small Snow globe around frost, this glove will move with frost.

 

4. Avalanche

Fine as it is now.

 

What do you think of these changes ?

Edited by keikogi
Added Ice Glaive as an alternative. Clarification on the glaive. Futher buffs to Ice wave. Added an alternative for Ice wave
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i dont know if its just me but frost is one of the most balanced frames in game with a very clear and unique role to fill imo. even similar frames dont really do his job and especially not as well so i wonder why suggest a rework of such a totally fine frame when there are other really obvious candidates for improvement ?

sorry, no offense but imo a totally pointless suggestion.

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1 minute ago, Xydeth said:

i dont know if its just me but frost is one of the most balanced frames in game with a very clear and unique role to fill imo. even similar frames dont really do his job and especially not as well so i wonder why suggest a rework of such a totally fine frame when there are other really obvious candidates for improvement ?

sorry, no offense but imo a totally pointless suggestion.

Give me a good reason to use his 1 at all or name a situation where using his 2 is better than just using avalanche.

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Id like him to be bteer other than globe and defend and press 4 to freeze and shatter, his 2 and 1 I dont even use when playing him and even if I try using his 2 by the time it reaches enemies someone else has killed it, his 1 is 'fine' for a 1st ability but I dont use it much

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2 minutes ago, Lazarow said:

Id like him to be bteer other than globe and defend and press 4 to freeze and shatter, his 2 and 1 I dont even use when playing him and even if I try using his 2 by the time it reaches enemies someone else has killed it, his 1 is 'fine' for a 1st ability but I dont use it much

I’ve tried to address that, since his 2 now has the continuous slow from his argument,  It can be used as area denial. The 1 is “fake” viral proc. I don’t think 1 should be effectively useless due to low damage or range.

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I like all of your changes. Still keeps his snow globe role intact but also makes him a lot better in other stuff with the carriable snow globe.

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I think his 3 and 4 are fine as they are now. I'm not against the changes you propose for the passive and his 1-2 skills.

In general, I don't think Frost is bad in any shape or form. Yes, there are other frames that fit the defensive role of his, but to me none of them is as "clear" or "neat" as Frost in that role,

I wouldn't mind if DE implemented your suggestions, they seem like an improvement and they don't change the character of the frame in any extravagant way.

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My thoughts on the analysis and proposals:

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Frost used to be the king of defense missions. Over time more ways to defend appeared on the game and frost, frost isn’t even the best option for defense anymore. So, thought of a rework to improve his ability and give him better defense capabilities and more overall uses for his skills. I don’t think his 3 and 4 need changes but his passive, 1 and 2 really need some help.

 

Passive

It is bad, you shouldn’t expose yourself to damage melee damage, and since the passive has 10% chance of procing it is not likely to protect frost from melee damage.

Passive 2.0  

Enemies on a 30 meters radius from Frost are affected by his chilling presence, the effect is stronger the closer the enemies get from Frost.

30 m- 5 % slow

20 m- 10 % slow

10 m- 15 % slow

5 m-30 % slow

I completely agree that the current passive is bad, and fails at its core purpose, whereas the suggested passive would provide much better protection while also having an interesting element of risk/reward, plus synergy with the proposed Snow Globe change. The numbers look a bit low, but that really doesn't matter for a paper concept.

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

1. Freeze (Old)

This skill is useless, why single target CC even exists in this game if any enemy worthy of single target crow control is immune to Crow control. Furthermore, the small ice path it leaves is a joke.

1. Ice lance( New) 

Launches a targeted projectile, this projectile will freeze any enemies in contact with it. This projectile has unlimited punch trough against enemies but will stop on contact with wall or ground leaving an ice patch. Enemies frozen by this skill will shatter (they die) upon losing half of their health

On one hand, I agree that the current Freeze is basically a baby Avalanche, so not very useful on its own, though on the other I also think that the new Ice Lance still has a fair bit of overlap, in that both serve to set up enemies via freezing. In this respect, keeping the freeze on Ice Lance, but also having it shatter already frozen enemies on impact for large amounts of damage, might be the way to go. Alternatively, or alongside this, shifting Avalanche's armor removal onto Ice Lance would also redistribute Frost's utility so that he has more incentive to use multiple abilities at a time.

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

2.Ice Wave (Old) 

This skill suffers of redundancy. Why use Ice wave for CC when you can just use avalanche instead. This skill needs a new role.

2. Ice Wave 2.0 (New) 

Just make Ice wave impedance argument the default skill,

Note: this way Ice wave is about area denial and Avalanche about AOE CC.

SynergyTM

Casting Ice lance on an enemy slowed by Ice Wave will freeze all enemies slowed by this Ice Wave.

I agree with both the criticism and the suggestion here. I'm not entirely certain if this alone would make Ice Wave desirable, but it would certainly be a step forward, as right now the ability is fairly redundant alongside the rest of Frost's kit. The synergy looks fine as well.

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

 

3. Snow Globe (Old)

This skill is good, I will add a new function because I want Frost to able to safely leave snow globe.

3. Snow Globe 2.0 (New)

Tap

Same as it is now

Hold

Create a Small Snow globe around frost, this glove will move with frost.

This looks reasonable. I personally think Snow Globe could use more changes (I don't think they should stack, and instead I think a single cast should be enough to produce a powerful bubble), but this alone would at least make Snow Globe feel on par with the one on Eximus units, and play better with the game's flow overall while also making Frost more of a tank.

18 minutes ago, keikogi said:

4. Avalanche

Fine as it is now.

Agreed more or less. Frost's 1-2 could probably benefit from having some effects shifted off of his 4, e.g. the damage and/or armor reduction, and onto them instead, so that each ability has a specific purpose (and Avalanche ends up being less overloaded), but as far as abilities go, it's fine and feels good to use when modded right.

So overall, I'd say these changes would be a step forward for Frost. I can agree with some others that he's certainly not doing the worst out of all frames, but he certainly does have a few problems here and there, and thus opportunities for his kit to improve. I think the changes here have a solid direction in mind (with the changes to the passive, 2, and 3, Frost becomes a much better tank who'd get in the middle of the enemy before disabling them all), and could therefore enhance Frost's gameplay without sacrificing what he can do now.

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1 hour ago, Xydeth said:

i dont know if its just me but frost is one of the most balanced frames in game with a very clear and unique role to fill imo. even similar frames dont really do his job and especially not as well

Gara. Mass Vitrify is just a better Snowglobe and she has incredible damage potential and far better tanking.

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Damn, I like these suggestions. Even though Frost is still good as is. These improvements would make him even better and pair him up with the current state of the game's direction.

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3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

On one hand, I agree that the current Freeze is basically a baby Avalanche, so not very useful on its own, though on the other I also think that the new Ice Lance still has a fair bit of overlap, in that both serve to set up enemies via freezing. In this respect, keeping the freeze on Ice Lance, but also having it shatter already frozen enemies on impact for large amounts of damage, might be the way to go. Alternatively, or alongside this, shifting Avalanche's armor removal onto Ice Lance would also redistribute Frost's utility so that he has more incentive to use multiple abilities at a time.

The selling point of this skill is shatter effect ( insta kill ) , it's synergy ( I would prefer to call this kinda off ability combos of combo but warframe usually calls them synergies ) with Ice wave allows you to hit mutiple enemies with it. Due to the way it's worded it also an sinergizes with viral proc ( reduce enemy to by half than if you do 1/4 of their to as damage they die ). If you realy have a thought nut to crack you can thrown in an avalanche to armor strip the enemy on top of that.

I did not want to move the armor stripping effect because you don't fix what is not broken on reworks. So I just gave a new utility that is worth using on top of the armor stripping avalanche provides.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

agree with both the criticism and the suggestion here. I'm not entirely certain if this alone would make Ice Wave desirable, but it would certainly be a step forward, as right now the ability is fairly redundant alongside the rest of Frost's kit. The synergy looks fine as well

The ice on the ground is a powerfully cc effect , on top of that synergy with ice lance makes it a really good skill. Edit: to be fair , the ice on the ground cold use a longer duration but I didn't really want to bring numbers up unless they were necessary for understanding my proposal.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This looks reasonable. I personally think Snow Globe could use more changes (I don't think they should stack, and instead I think a single cast should be enough to produce a powerful bubble), but this alone would at least make Snow Globe feel on par with the one on Eximus units, and play better with the game's flow overall while also making Frost more of a tank

Even tought I don't think snow globe is a bad skill , the mobile nature of warframe makes me thing frost should be able to move around with his globe. Common even eximi enemies can do this , why not frost. Also snow globe could use a better to formula.

Edited by keikogi

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Poor rework.

So, why does Frost need multiple abilities with the same effects? As a control warframe he needs only 1 ability to do that. Other ones must do something else.

1, 2 and 4 abilities could be replaced with one.

E.g:

[1] Freeze Blast:

Freeze Blast is Freeze combined with Avalanche but with reduced range and better armor reduction. This could be a great solution.

[2] %a new ability%

[3] Snow Globe

[4] %a new ability%

See that? You have 2 empty slots for something useful instead these crappy abilities that do the same.


He's totally in crap state and needs a better rework ASAP. That guys who thinks he's good frame, how long have you playing him? Do you really don't understand that there are better control and def Warframes than Frost?

Freeze is useless. Why do I even need to use it? Just simply press 4 to freeze all

Ice Wave. Most useless ability. Does nothing but poor damage

Snow Globe sucks sometimes. Some of AoE's still can hit me or my teammates inside a bubble. That's why I would use Limbo rather than Frost

Avalanche. 8 awesome seconds of Freeze with 40% armor reduction. I see it pathetic. And it costs like overpowered ultimate. I would give it 50 energy cost to compensate it.

Do you guys need more reasons to understand that he's in current Ember state?

P.S 2025 hrs. on Frost

 

Edited by _GoodLuck_
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I think these are pretty good suggestions. The other thread about frost recently suggested replacing his 2 with a defensive ability, which I thought was fine, but I actually like your snow globe suggestion better for giving him better survival outside of his stationary globes. 

Currently I never use his 1 or 2 outside of popping globes so trying to get people to want to use both of those would be great. While there's still a lot of redundancy with his 1, 2 and 4 in your suggestion, the use of his 1 and 2 is cheaper and has the added effect of the shatter.

The passive suggestion would be more useful than his current one, though it's also kind of redundant since all of his abilities are about slowing and freezing as well. Maybe they could make his passive do something when enemies he freezes die/are shattered. Some people have suggested things like dropping orbs or giving him energy. I think maybe dropping ice armor buffs anyone on his team can pick up similar to the buff avalanche's augment provides (it could stack with it if you actually use it) would be neat. The buff needs to be changed to let adaptation proc through it though. 

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Just now, Borg1611 said:

I think these are pretty good suggestions. The other thread about frost recently suggested replacing his 2 with a defensive ability, which I thought was fine, but I actually like your snow globe suggestion better for giving him better survival outside of his stationary globes. 

Currently I never use his 1 or 2 outside of popping globes so trying to get people to want to use both of those would be great. While there's still a lot of redundancy with his 1, 2 and 4 in your suggestion, the use of his 1 and 2 is cheaper and has the added effect of the shatter.

The passive suggestion would be more useful than his current one, though it's also kind of redundant since all of his abilities are about slowing and freezing as well. Maybe they could make his passive do something when enemies he freezes die/are shattered. Some people have suggested things like dropping orbs or giving him energy. I think maybe dropping ice armor buffs anyone on his team can pick up similar to the buff avalanche's augment provides (it could stack with it if you actually use it) would be neat. The buff needs to be changed to let adaptation proc through it though. 

The passive is more about feeling than actual power. It just makes frost feels colder , like his mere presence is enought to slow enemies down. Maybe if he is inside a snow globe the passive would become stronger.

About the 1 just edited in an alternative as a pseudo exalted glaive/cold zenistar. I used to go crazier on reworks but due to feedback I've been sticking closer to frame original kit.

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Firstly I think Frost is still a good frame in defense mission. True he was a king, but it is better, I think, to a multiple good frame at something than only one who is THE KING.

The Passive :

Sure the passif is if I can say weird. I feel it is more something for low level mission since high level one will one punch you. It is a passif you don't want to rely on. YOur Idea is not bad, but how about the more he is is power, the more the air around him is cold and it could slow enemy and at a certain point maybe freeze them ?

First Ability :

To be honest without the augment, I would not use it. With your rework... if it is good, I'm in ! But with the augment, it is know one of the ability I used the most on Frost (Same for EMber, Oberon, Saryn, Volt) But Without the augment it is bad (I'll admit)

Second Abilitiy :

I was creating a snow globe in defense mission and spamming Ice Wave with max range (Slowing down the enemy) It was a good time. Still like to do this. I don't mind the change however.

Third Ability :

I like the Idea, but I think the globe around you should be less effective than the other one.

or,

Olding could maybe revert the globe.... That way instead of snowing inside the globe, it would snow outside, slowing down enemy (It is repetitive with the new passif you suggested) and augment Ice damage for everybody. The snow would follow Frost in a area of effect and could drain your energy x energy/s.

Fourth Ability :

As you say.... fine as it is.

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23 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker 5K said:

The Passive :

Sure the passif is if I can say weird. I feel it is more something for low level mission since high level one will one punch you. It is a passif you don't want to rely on. YOur Idea is not bad, but how about the more he is is power, the more the air around him is cold and it could slow enemy and at a certain point maybe freeze them ?

Maybe I could add in if the enemy takes a few cold procs inside this aura he will freeze. I don't know , passive slows are way better than people give them credit.

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker 5K said:

First Ability :

To be honest without the augment, I would not use it. With your rework... if it is good, I'm in ! But with the augment, it is know one of the ability I used the most on Frost (Same for EMber, Oberon, Saryn, Volt) But Without the augment it is bad (I'll admit)

Witch version ice lance or Ice glaive ?

25 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker 5K said:

Third Ability :

I like the Idea, but I think the globe around you should be less effective than the other one.

Snow globe moving with frost is not going to break the game. There are far better defensive alternatives.

26 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker 5K said:

Olding could maybe revert the globe.... That way instead of snowing inside the globe, it would snow outside, slowing down enemy (It is repetitive with the new passif you suggested) and augment Ice damage for everybody. The snow would follow Frost in a area of effect and could drain your energy x energy/s.

I just like how simple it is, just pick your snow globe and run with it. It was kinda of last minute change because I think snow globe is mostly fine, but gara and limbo can move around with defensive skills so I tought frost should have one as well.

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37 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Maybe I could add in if the enemy takes a few cold procs inside this aura he will freeze. I don't know , passive slows are way better than people give them credit.

Yeah... that could work well. And yeah... for sure. Passive that slows enemy are really good #Equinox augment

Quote

Witch version ice lance or Ice glaive ?

 I am more for the ice lance than the Ice glaive. The Ice glaive would be like an Exalted Weapon. I might be a minority on that, but I am not a fan of those (Exalted Weapons)

Quote

Snow globe moving with frost is not going to break the game. There are far better defensive alternatives.

It will not break the game, it is just that I don’t think he needs it. I am not saying either that I will not take it if they gave it.

Quote

I just like how simple it is, just pick your snow globe and run with it. It was kinda of last minute change because I think snow globe is mostly fine, but gara and limbo can move around with defensive skills so I tought frost should have one as well.

I also like how simple it is. But sometimes things “simple” like that could maybe be just augment rework. Like :

Snow Globe augment : Upon leaving Snow Globe, Frost and Ally gain a smaller Snow Globe that moves around with them. The range = 20% of power range (Just an exemple). (We could also add, but it might be too much, The range = 20% of power range of initial Snow Globe. If there’s more user, the range is divided by the number of user.) So you could start with a globe around you with 20% of your range and if an ally enter and exit THE INITIAL GLOBE (Not the one around you) you would now have 10% and your other teammate 10%.

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22 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker 5K said:

 I am more for the ice lance than the Ice glaive. The Ice glaive would be like an Exalted Weapon. I might be a minority on that, but I am not a fan of those (Exalted Weapons)

It is closer to gara's 1 , excalibur 1 and Atals fist. It not realy about spaning "E" like most exated eapons and hopping for the best. The trown version only works well if you set it up with avalanche or ice wave , you can use it for area denial ( cold zenistar ) as well. I like it's desing but it is a  bit a quite big change. I've allowed it to be modded just because it would push frost damage a bit, but it's streght  is on the utility. Realistc speaking it should do low damage compared to other exalted weapons due to its utility (freezing and energy gain).

Edit: Ice lance is the smallest change I would make to freeze and ice glaive is the biggest one. 

22 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker 5K said:

I also like how simple it is. But sometimes things “simple” like that could maybe be just augment rework. Like :

Snow Globe augment : Upon leaving Snow Globe, Frost and Ally gain a smaller Snow Globe that moves around with them. The range = 20% of power range (Just an exemple). (We could also add, but it might be too much, The range = 20% of power range of initial Snow Globe. If there’s more user, the range is divided by the number of user.) So you could start with a globe around you with 20% of your range and if an ally enter and exit THE INITIAL GLOBE (Not the one around you) you would now have 10% and your other teammate 10%.

Having another argument for defense seen redundante. Like we already have the fake iron skin on his 4, having smoll globe would feel redundante. But I do love smoll globe.

 

Edited by keikogi

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I like frost though I'm tired of his design. Someone needs to keep his theme in mind and start from the ground up!

His 2 should last a lot longer and provide cover u can crouch behind while encasing enemies in its path from the waste down?

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)EPOSSTYLE said:

His 2 should last a lot longer and provide cover u can crouch behind while encasing enemies in its path from the waste down?

Cover kinda sucks especially on frost. Why you would use cover if you can just use a bunker ( snow globe ) , also freezing waste down doesn't help this skill to do something that avalanche doesn't , thats why I went with the argument effect ( the ground is covered in ice and slows incoming enemies )

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10 hours ago, keikogi said:

Note: This skill is an exalted weapon and can be modded , unlike pther glaives it cannot equip 

 

If they give Frost an exalted bullsh!t  any kind of exalted bullsh!t IT would turn a moderately good Warframe insto pure TRASH!!!!!

The passive is not really good as now, I would propose that he get armor when he is near a frozen enemy(stack-able to a point) o gets energy when a frozen enemy shatters (and die)... ant the Ice wave Impedance we all agree it should be part of the ability itself...

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12 minutes ago, Jcyrano said:

If they give Frost an exalted bullsh!t  any kind of exalted bullsh!t IT would turn a moderately good Warframe insto pure TRASH!!!!!

Gona say what I've said before "It is closer to gara's 1 , excalibur 1 and Atals fist. It not realy about spaning "E" like most exated weapons and hopping for the best. The trown version only works well if you set it up with avalanche or ice wave , you can also use it for area denial ( cold zenistar ) as well. I like it's desing but it is a  bit a quite big change. I've allowed it to be modded just because it would push frost damage a bit, but it's streght  is on the utility. ". I just said it is a exalted weapon becasue I think DE will move on from stat stick melee weapons.

Edit: Also you never realy equip it as proper exalted weapon since as soon as you realise the 1 key, you will thrown the weapon.

Edited by keikogi

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10 hours ago, keikogi said:

4. Avalanche

Fine as it is now.

No, it's so basic. I would rather Frost conjure a massive Blizzard (see Exploiter Orb) that reduces enemy accuracy and deals constant damage to them. Allies receive evasion and  Cold damage bonuses. Additionally, enemies inside the Blizzard that take Cold damage will eventually freeze

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9 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

No, it's so basic. I would rather Frost conjure a massive Blizzard (see Exploiter Orb) that reduces enemy accuracy and deals constant damage to them. Allies receive evasion and  Cold damage bonuses. Additionally, enemies inside the Blizzard that take Cold damage will eventually freeze

A hard think about doing reworks is, you are not design a new character you are just trying to fix one. Which means, you must try to keep everything players love about it. Would a blizzard be more awesome than avalanche and fit his original “ghosts” motif (look at his concept art in dark sector)?

Yes, it would. Should we scrap avalanche for it? NO!!! It is one of the best skills frosts currently has. Being simple is not a SIN, you can say it is weak but that can be easily fixed by giving it more range or need less power Strength to get the 100% armor reduction. But the skill is not fundamentally bad.

 

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1 minute ago, keikogi said:

A hard think about doing reworks is, you are not design a new character

I am among the first ones that try to be as conservative about reworks as possible. However, some skills are simply bland designs from the get-go. Hence why DE changed two abilities from both Wukong and Ember, and three from Vauban.

 

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