Every Frame reworked

[Damocles]

So I made a list of warframes and their short comings here:
 

Spoiler

Lets list them all:
Universal*: Damage abilities DON'T scale due to a set amount of arbitrary damage that good for star chart enemies, but not enemies veterans will face.
Universal**: Abilities that RELY on AI and contradicts active play in favor of AFK play. Often unreliable or wages effectiveness to a chance at doing what you think it will do
Universal***: Abilities that are not recastable where it would otherwise make sense to be able to. Augments that alleviate this does not count as you lose out on a mod slot.
Ash: Shuriken is Strictly worse Nyx's Psychic bolts even with the armor strip augment, Smoke Screen duration too short
Atlas: Tectonics has niche use case, Petrify is too energy expensive for 60 degrees of CC, Rumblers *+**
Banshee: Sonic boom is awkward Psychic bolts, Silence doesnt work well with public lobbies, and Sound Quake *
Baruuk: Elude is AFK leech mode, Lull is lul except less versatile compared to Sleepquinox, Serene Storm * and does not work off energy;
Chroma: Spectral scream*, Elemental Ward*** Effigy *+**
Ember: We'll see. Currently has no survivability, entire kit*
Day Equinox: Rage is strictly worse rip off of speedva, Provoke is too energy expensive for the gains,
Night Equinox: Mend is strictly worse than trinity's well of life
Excalibur: Slash Dash* though you can use this to fly in perhaps what is a low key exploit, Radial Javalin*
Frost: Freeze*, Ice Wave*, Snow Globe blocks incoming friendly fire, Avalanche*
Gara: Spectrorage**
Garuda: Doesnt like being healed
Gauss: is fine, his kit is OP but currently buggy with redline often disabling his movement when using operator
Harrow: has no survivability in neither stats nor abilities. Can be healed by Penance after getting 1 shotted. His entire kit doesn't work when KSed in public lobby. Solo frame
Hildryn: Balefire*, instantly dies to gas and slash proccs, literally Godsend for energy reduction sortie, literally trash in no-shield nightmare modes
Hydroid: entire kit suffers from *, is also slow in terms of animations for a fast paced game
Inaros: Devour*, sandstorm*
Khora: Venari **
Limbo: AFK leech exploit passive, entire kit can single handedly turn a mission into one where it cannot be completed, can troll the hell out of new players, can prevent friendly fire outright, can be used to prevent missions such as Boss activations from occurring via AFK without consequence, can be colored to make rift invisible to further troll veteran players
Loki: Decoy has very niche use case (either AI exploit or to use with his Switch teleport)
Mag: No survivability, no healing in her kit, damage oriented glass cannon, Magnetize***,Polarize*, Crush*
Mesa: ballistic battery* in the time it takes you to setup ballistic battery, holding down mouse 1 would have done 3 times more damage in the same amount of time, shooting gallery*** shatter shield***
Mirage: Hall of Mirrors***, Sleight of Hand*+**, Eclipse is unreliable, DE should have divided her two abilities in Eclipse into her 2nd and third ability instead (since nobody uses Sleight of hand) Prism* and is an energy guzzler with perhaps the SLOWEST CASTING ANIMATION of all the warframes
Nekros: Soul punch exploit, Terrify is strictly worse Speedva and Slova, Shadows of the Dead** cannot be modded properly in conjunction with his other 3 abilities
Nezha: Divine Speers*
Nidus: Slow to setup. Wont reach 30% of potential by the time the average mission is finished, Virulence cast speed is inversely proportional to range, Larva***
Nova: Portal is Niche gimmick and cannot be modded for feasible range while maximizing duration for her other 3 abilties
Nyx: Mind Control**, Chaos**, Absorb has insufficient range to hit anything as most AI attack at 20m. Having 10m base while being unable to move, unable to shoot, and unable to anything makes her augment 100% mandatory.
Oberon: Good support but his kit all suffers from scaling (* damage and healing)
Octavia: SUPER OP, except her feasibility is tied to making the MOST ANNOYING of songs to spam crouch and play dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun....
Revenant: Reave Instant kill Exploit, cannot control elevation during Danse Macabre
Rhino: Rhino Charge*, Iron Skin***, Roar*** damage buff values are insanely low relative to Chroma or Mirage's Damage buff, Rhino Stomp* and Not technically recasteable as doing so before the previous stomp expires will neither refresh the CC nor deal damage to the affected AI
Saryn: Molt is niche healing decoy, Toxic Lash is borderline non-scaling
Titania: confusing kit, can make AI invulnerable and thus make missions impossible to complete, hard to discern the buffs, as Spellbind, Tribute and Lantern are pretty much the same thing
Trinity: Well of Life and Vampire leech desires negative duration, while Link and Blessing desires positive duration. Link suffers from abnormally low base duration of 12 seconds
Valkyr: OH BABY, is she beaten to death with a stick 7 times over for her Hysteria, Warcry*** and suffers from low base duration of 15 seconds, Paralysis Suffers from low base range of 10m, her Hysteria deserves her own article. Reduced to Exalted claws with little to no damage scaling, limited range (one of the worst melee ranges possible), damage absorbed is stored and instant kills valkyr when abruptly nullified or deactivated near even 1 enemy AI, has a high energy cost, energy cost progressively gets worse, invulnerability is removed when aim gliding or shooting your guns due to recent update, energy drain persists because quick switch does not deactivate hysteria's energy drain even though you gain nothing from her Hysteria in the meantime. According to her patch notes, her invincibility was exploited to warrant 2 energy drain nerfs, with a subsequent bug fix that removed an apparent double stacking of efficiency mods, but the energy drain nerfs persisted. Due to her high armor, stacking 2 arcane graces can achieve the same invulnerability for 99% of the game's content without ever using her Hysteria making the ability completely unjustifiable to use with the exception of enemy instant kill abilities such as orb mother explosions and absurd endurance scaling past a couple of hours.
Vauban: We'll see, Currently has only CC abilities and gimmicks that make him more of a clown than an engineer
Volt: Shock*, Speed suffers from Low duration and possible affinity exploit, Discharge*
Wisp: Sol Gate, though scaling, suffers from relatively low scaling compared to other ultimates from other frames
Zephyr: Tail wind*, Air Burst*, Turbulance***, Tornado*+** though tornado does scale in terms of applying status effects

A few things I named to be universally bad in *,**,*** points are often a tell tale sign of a legacy warframe that needs to be looked at!

Today I want to post some inspirational ideas to solve Scaling*, Reliability**, and Recastability*** as well as a few ideas for reworks for each warframe:

To boot, Scaling is really bad. It made sense to have abilities that deal damage, buff, debuff, crowd control, and/or offer utility. The thing with Damage is that they dont usually scale. Whether it be 500, 1000, 2000, 3000 base damage, the problem with damage abilities is that they dont scale as levels get higher. Unlike buffs, that need only accommodate warframes that don't scale past rank 30, Buffs need only to perform at a certain limit. For example, energy vampire needs to only fill less than 1000 energy as the frames dont scale high enough to need buffs to scale. Debuffs are often proportional, such as nova's slow or mag's fracturing crush augment. Crowd control scales infinitely as an all-or-nothing trade, while utilities are either gimmicks that (honestly) suck, or breath new perspective on entertainment.

* Damage scaling needs to work off something. And I am not saying off of stat sticks like Khora or Atlas

Spoiler

For example, look at exalted blade: It has high damage, and range, but most importantly, Condition Overload+Chromatic Blade exists. Now look at Valkyr's Talon. They're crit focused, yet melee crit mods offer low base improvements of 60% chance and 90% damage. The scaling mod blood rush does not work on her crit focused talons. Her range is also the shortest ranged exalted weapon. Even Baruuk who fights bare handed has more range, but similarly, no scaling. At some point, the damage (be it 100,000 or 5,000) will eventually do little to nothing to level 100,200,300 enemies. In contrast, exalted blade will easily scale past this issue due to exponential scaling of condition overload. Mesa's peacemakers are perhaps the second highest DPS per target abilities in game because you can hold it down. Talons and Fists have neither of these benefits. To an extent, it actually does make sense to let them have blood rush and weeping wounds because these abilities are neither sustainable nor scaling. DE prevented exalted weapons from having acolyte mods because of "Power Creep". The problem with this statement is: Energy Drain over time means it's not sustainable. The combos dont last very long because they easily reset unlike normal melee. There are no scaling acolyte mods for PeaceMakers so Peacemakers are scaling at its peak. The existence of Acolyte mods scaling means no other scaling mods for melee will ever exist to make normal melee even better, and thus no other options for Talons or Serene Storm to exist. The best solution isn't to just give Chromatic Blade variants either. The real solution is to give Acolyte Mod access back to these abilities because right now, it's like giving us a Lamborghini but imposing a speed limit of 50 kmph. I might as well go speeding with a Honda Civic!

Abilties such as Ash's Shuriken, Excal's Slash Dash and Rhino's Charge don't scale like Atla's Land slide, or Khoras whip. The biggest problem here are missed opportunities to use their thematic traits to scale them. For example: Ash is an assassin. So for each enemy his 4 targets, his shuriken (being a first ability) could scale proportionally, such as +100% dmg per marked enemy. This might sound OP, but 500 base damage would require marking 20-40 enemies to be on par with perhaps a primary before hitting criticals. And being a "1" ability, it doesnt need to outshine anyone. Excal's Slash Dash and Radial Javelin was a BIG missed opportunity to scale with his exalted blade mods. Due to the meta of how excal works right now, he could easily make his damage abilities relevant of his mods work just apply. Rhino already does scale, in armor! Rhino could have just had his damage scale proportionally to the amount of iron skin he current has. These ideas make SO MUCH SENSE from both a practical and storytelling point of view.

Lastly, the star chart argument is not a pass here to say 3000 is a lot of damage on level 30 infested. Star chart can be cleared in a couple weeks and nobody really plays them at end game. Survival and scaling modes such as Defense and Interception start to Reign supreme for endgame, but abilities don't scale, which is why you get meta endgame frames such as Mesa's Scaling PeaceMakers rather than Choma's energy guzzling CC turret.

** AI need to be more predictable.

Spoiler

Now I'm not saying machine learning or AI buzz words needs to be innovative and revolutionary. I'm just saying that Atla's Rumblers are cool, but ultimately a Gimmick. As an ultimate ability, it relies on AI, they dont scale well (see *) and they dont do what you want them to. Instead, of pro-afk mechanics by automating the experience with friendly AI, why not give control back to the player? Some of the BEST and MOST POPULAR abilities are player controlled. If Atlas would just wear the Rumbler, Chroma becomes the Dragon, and Zephyr Becomes the wind, it would make for more engaging game play. Scaling* would still need to be implemented to make sense.

*** Recastability.

Spoiler

Very simple. Just let every ability be recastable regardless of remaining duration. Now Loki's invisibility doesn't need to be recasteable, because it makes sense to have a flaw in what is already a pseudo God mode state. But why are certain abilities such as Chroma's Elemental Ward still not recasteable when community asked for Vex Armor to be. Same inconsistency for Mirage's Hall of Mirrors when her Eclipse is recasteable. And if Eclipse is Recastable, then why is Rhino's MUCH MUCH weaker Roar, not recasteable?

Now Im not saying make Augments to fix this because Mag's Magnetized Discharge, Rhinos Iron Shrapnel, and Piercing Roar augments are not solutions. They are substituting 1 problem with another. Rhino's Survivability Scales with Ironclad Charge. This augment is fine because it offers something new from the base ability worth investing a mod slot for. Iron Shrapnel is NOT. The reason is because the effect is completely useless as an entire mod slot was used just so I can recast an ability due to its side effect. It can be ranked 0 for the mod to have the side effect, and shows that the mod Iron Shrapnel DOESNT EVEN NEED TO EXIST. It only exists to date as "a 1 mod slot handicap". So please make abilities recastable

Now lets go through each Warframe:
 

Spoiler

Ash: Shuriken needs to scale with stealth prowess, Smoke Screen duration needs to be dramatically increased
Atlas: Tectonics needs to become an AoE avatar earth bender style attack instead of one 15th of frost's snow globe, Petrify needs to cost 25 energy instead, when Radial Blind offers more range, 360 degrees, and can often be free with Umbra's passive exploit, Rumblers need to be the same as the conclave augment. I think Brozime did a video on this
Banshee: Sonic boom needs a complete replacement. I would suggest scanning enemies through walls as utility as a sound themed ability. Call it Sonar and rename old sonar as Reverb. Silence would do better if enemy line of sight becomes visible to all party members. Sound Quake needs scaling. Perhaps increased proportionally to each enemy killed in silence.
Baruuk: Elude is AFK leech mode and is counter productive to active play. Remove this ability entirely in favor of a buff. Lull cant be discount Sleepquinox, change it to a debuff ability and call it Intimidate. Serene Storm needs scaling* and needs to work off energy rather that the unconventional and vastly limited restraint (which cannot be modded for like energy can with Flow, Rage, Arcanes, etc etc)
Chroma: Spectral scream... You know the Ignis exists right? Top tier primary flame thrower, insane range and punch through, no energy cost to boot? Why not take some notes?, Elemental Ward needs to be recastable, Vex armor should not increase modded damage but should instead be final damage like Mirage and Rhino. This is because adding modded damage devalues damage mods and rivens for no real reason. Effigy needs scaling and... BECOME THE DRAGON. Right now, Effigy is basically Umbra's Passive, except Umbra does scaling damage with guns, costs no energy, is mobile, and provides free radial blind.
Ember: We'll see.
Day Equinox: Rage should instead be a light damage buff and damage reduction to allies. Provoke needs a higher base strength increase, since equinox's kit doesnt really scale with strength anyways, it would best be an unmodable +5/10/20/40% strength Aura to allies.
Night Equinox: Mend should just be a life steal aura rather than a high maintenance ability
Excalibur: Slash Dash and Radial Javalin needs to have the exalted blade mods applied. You literally use the Exalted Blade in the animation, but for some reason it behaves like an unranked, unmodded ability.
Frost: Freeze could creatively be able to freeze the ground to heal frost when he stands on it. Freezing yourself to gain armor would be Very nice. Frost is in great need of stat boosts. Snow Globe needs to stop blocking incoming friendly fire like Gara's pass through equivalent.
Gara: Spectrorage needs to be replaced with something useful and encourage active play. Why not Volt Shield-like panel of glass, that can be slotted to repair Mass Vitrify's broken panels?
Garuda: Doesnt like being healed, the design flaw is rooted so deep, the passive should literally encompass being unhealable by allies
Gauss: Recently became a god. No reworks here
Harrow: His entire kit needs to ally friendly, ie, kills from allies still procc the effects of his abilities, and also needs a damage reduction ability somewhere
Hildryn: Perhaps Pillage should remove status effects on self. Casteable in her Aegis storm but only to remove status effects.
Hydroid: Needs scaling and faster casting animations.
Inaros: Devour and sandstorm needs scaling. I recommend scaling with enemy health and armor from self
Khora: Venari AI sucks, but to be real, all beast AI sucks because they draw aggro, get themselves killed, rinse repeat. All beast AIs need some kind preservation system. Maybe be like Djinn and come back after dying. There's no real good way to fix bringing pets to a warzone...
Limbo: AFK leech exploit passive needs to be timed, allied damage cannot be prevented by rift. It shouldnt matter who is and isn't in the rift. Alleviate all confusion, and never have limbo prevent allied damage from taking place. Operator amps are already capable of attacking both dimensions simultaneously. So there you go!
Loki: Decoy would be better if he didnt make noise, and upon being spotted by unalerted enemies, they make enemies focus on the decoy rather insta killing it. This would give his kit the ability to somewhat control enemy line of sight. If the enemies are already engaged, they will continue to shoot the decoy.
Mag: Whatever happened to the thing she did in the Warframe trailer? Catching bullets and sending them back would have made her tankier and complete her kit
Mesa: Ballistic Battery needs to either have no ceiling, or scale off as bonus damage. However, it would be better to make it something fun and less maintenance by turning it into a quick reload ability.
Mirage: Hall of Mirrors needs to be recastable. Sleight of Hand needs to be replaced with the Damage Reduction part of Eclipse, and Eclipse needs to be the damage bonus only. However, instead of outright having the damage bonus, her new Eclipse's damage buff should scale down like chroma's nerf. 3 times damage makes Rhino's 1.5 times damage go to shame. It should instead be 2 times damage at base, and scales up to the current 3 times when absorbing sunlight over time while decreasing down to 2 damage in shade. Prism needs a faster casting animation. 2 seconds of not being able to move is practically being stagger locked.
Nekros: Soul punch needs to punch through rather than send enemies to orbit. Terrify should make enemies cower in place, Shadows of the Dead needs to have its duration removed as nothing else Nekros has really scales with duration. Duration is currently his "stat dump".
Nezha: Technically is fine the way he is
Nidus: Virulence cast speed is inversely proportional to range and needs to be made more consistent, Larva needs to be recastable to make a new one instead of "find the stuck geometry"
Nova: Portal needs a fixed minimum range of 20m since you're not going to mod for range when only 1 ability benefits from range while another (the all important damage reduction) scales better with negative range.
Nyx: Mind Control was a missed opportunity to practically transference into an AI, Chaos is fine, but not very reliable I must admit, Absorb needs to have a 30m base range. It currently hits literally nothing and is only exploited for its invincibility.
Oberon: Needs scaling for his damage abilities. I think health is his theme, but health doesnt scale on frames. Maybe he could scale health like how Rhino can scale past his in iron skin, then the additional health can scale his damage abilities! 
Octavia: Separate her song from her functionality. I don't want note spam just to be able to use her.
Revenant: Reave Instant kill Exploit... Introduce a max cap of 50% health drain while being able to change lateral direction like wukong's Cloud Walker
Rhino: Damages need to scale off his scaling iron skin. Iron skin and Roar needs to be recastable. Roar needs to be 2 time damage at base instead of the awkward 1.5 times making it pretty much 1/4th of Mirage's current buff. And Rhino stomp needs to stop displacing enemies the way it currently does: suspended in the air and safe from recast, head tucked and turned away from caster making headshots impossible
Saryn: Molt should convert shields into health to match the natural function of Molting. Augment changed to provide health and shields as Molt takes damage.
Titania: Spellbind, Tribute and Lantern are pretty much the same thing. Needs a new kit to stay relevant and easy to understand. Right now her abilities do too many different things. Make Spellbind a crowd control ability, make Tribute a small dmg buff ability that scales per kill, and latern a healing Aura in light (Mirage's Light vs shade mechanic).
Trinity: Well of Life and Vampire leech should not have duration and be recastable. The damage isn't important anyways, while Link and Blessing desires positive duration their base durations needs to be at least doubled to keep up with more modern frames.
Valkyr: Paralysis needs to have improved range and angle. Currently her Warcry is better CC than her actual CC ability. Hysteria needs to have ALL her negatives alongside her invulnerability removed. She doesnt need invulnerability, and her energy guzzling is by far the worst in game. Hysteria should become: Immunity to status effects, knock downs, and maintain her life steal. Talons need to scale with Acolyte mods because her range is too small. No more insta die from being nullified.
Vauban: We'll see...
Volt: Speed needs a duration increase as well as a gating animation to prevent the Affinity exploit Khora once had that got players banned.
Wisp: Sol Gate needs to have a higher rate of fire. They're discount Peacemakers for sure, but people can use arcanes and mods to improve the hit speed. The beam currently doesnt hit as frequently as a continuous beam should. Instead of being a gate to the sun, it feels like an ignis with 2 free mods slots unused.
Zephyr: Air Burst should become something that either knocks down enemies, or suspends them in the air for a short moment. Turbulance needs to be recastable, and Tornado needs to turn Zephyr into the tornado, Pulling in enemies towards her with the current hit box advantage of shooting the tornado to distribute all damage and status effects to enemies inside. Tornado does not need innate damage.
 

PS. If I had to guess. Limbo's Troll and Valkyr's broken 3 and 4 warrant them to be next at a rework.

Lastly, to DE, we're not necessarily looking at these time consuming overhauls. We simply need these quick pass by changes (recastability, number tweaks, equation changes). The current rework cycle is unsustainable, as more frames are introduced, the pace at which complete reworks need to take place will quickly overwhelm staff. Dedicate true overhauls onto seriously broken frames, and save time and effort by patching the frames I mentioned more quickly without a complete redesign. Players appreciate more frequent gestures of care rather than infrequent presents. I hope this helps elucidate the reasons why certain frames just aren't popular.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

Can't really read this with your formatting. True eyesore 

[Leqesai]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

Can't really read this with your formatting. True eyesore 

I agree.

 

Tried reading through this twice and it is pretty confusing.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

you Forgot to suggest a complete rework of Revenant 0/10.

[selig_fay]

1 час назад, Descent-of-Damocles сказал:

Nezha: Technically is fine the way he is

Be nice, play nezha. 

 

 

[Damocles]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

I agree.

 

Tried reading through this twice and it is pretty confusing.

ah, rip... What should I do? add spacing? Bold the name of each frame?

[Damocles]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

you Forgot to suggest a complete rework of Revenant 0/10.

wdym? Revenant can strip armor, deal damage to multiple enemies, crowd control, tank, and instantly kill an enemy with his Reave exploit. Revenant just needs a nerf to his Reave exploit, and gain the lateral ability of cloud walker in his Reave to place him on par with other frames

[peterc3]

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Mag: No survivability, no healing in her kit, damage oriented glass cannon

Why does every single frame need to heal? How does that even make thematic sense?

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

recastability

This is not a quick thing to just up and change.

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

But why are certain abilities such as Chroma's Elemental Ward still not recasteable when community asked for Vex Armor to be.

The community does not dictate how DE makes their game. I can get a few people to upvote me demanding you give me $10, but that doesn't make it something that should happen.

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

And if Eclipse is Recastable, then why is Rhino's MUCH MUCH weaker Roar, not recasteable?

It's almost as if you aren't even looking past surface level stuff here. What could it be about Eclipse that is different from Roar? The mind boggles.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

wdym? Revenant can strip armor, deal damage to multiple enemies, crowd control, tank, and instantly kill an enemy with his Reave exploit. Revenant just needs a nerf to his Reave exploit, and gain the lateral ability of cloud walker in his Reave to place him on par with other frames

He has his 4 and that’s it. Mesmer Skin is an over rated tank ability and Enthrall is a useless CC ability along with not making any sense being on an Eidolon frame. Same goes for Reave, useless and doesn’t fit the Eidolons theme.

Edited October 14, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Damocles]

2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Why does every single frame need to heal? How does that even make thematic sense?

This is not a quick thing to just up and change.

The community does not dictate how DE makes their game. I can get a few people to upvote me demanding you give me $10, but that doesn't make it something that should happen.

It's almost as if you aren't even looking past surface level stuff here. What could it be about Eclipse that is different from Roar? The mind boggles.

Mag doesnt need to HEAL, but she doesnt have... anything. You might say shields but... Hildryn has shields and she has A LOT of it. Mag has a descent amount of shields, but so does everyone else. But we all know that shields are practically paper. Recastability is probably the easiest to change. I come from a programming back ground. I see assets are already there either augments. Also it's not hard reset a stack. Code isn't as hard as people make it out to be. Yes DE doesn't need to listen. But they should listen. They dont have to make anything based on what we ask, but you're implying that I have a gun to their face or something. We asked for Vex armor recastability because on Devstream, they said they'll nerf it, and the twitch chat asked for "at least put in recastability" and they snapped their fingers. Lastly, what do you mean surface level differences between eclipse and roar? They're similar in function, They're both recastable (if Rhino has the augment) but Eclipse has +200% while Rhino has +50%. Also, do I need to go into details?

"If (Roar.Active()) {Roar.reset(); Roar.activate();}" or something along those lines. I dont actually know how it's currently coded

[Damocles]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

He has his 4 and that’s it. Mesmer Skin is an over rated tank ability and Enthrall is a useless CC ability along with not making any sense being on an Eidolon frame. Same goes for Reave, useless and doesn’t fit the Eidolons theme.

Perhaps you're looking for a passive where shields are only affected by void damage, A first ability that lets you shoot Tau Lasers, a second ability that spawns they sentient sky prism, the third ability that works as adaptation, and keep his fourth the same? I'm not quite sure how to make a sentient frame without making it broken. Eidolons are in my opinion, the worst thrown together plot device to say: Grind out operator stuff.

If you have suggestions on what you'd like to see, send ideas, cause I'm pretty much only focused on quick changes DE can do in their spare time, as well as bringing frames up to date

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

If you have suggestions on what you'd like to see, send ideas, cause I'm pretty much only focused on quick changes DE can do in their spare time, as well as bringing frames up to date

I was going to post a full rework on you, but since you only want stuff that fits within this I'll condense a simplified rework I made based on his current abilities instead. 

-All thralls gain have a unified duration (instead of it being per thrall)

-Fix Pillar made thralls not making pillars (I'm not sure if it's intended to be this way)

-Buff pillar duration to 15 seconds

-Reduce cast time of Reave to basically nothing, just remove the startup animation.

-Make shield/overshield pickups affected by strength

-Make Dance Macabre's status chance be affected by strength

-Decrease damage absorption decay rate of Dance Macabre

-Remove Dance Macabre detonating pillars

 

 

 

A bit more complicated, but really helps the changes

New passive: Revanant gains increased power strength based on shield capacity (does not get higher with stuff like redirection, only from a variable of 0 to max shields, with overshields being the only way to get more beyond that)

 

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

I'm not quite sure how to make a sentient frame without making it broken.

To some extent it kind of has to be, but not necessarily, tho with your "I'm pretty much only focused on quick changes DE can do in their spare time" statement people can't offer such suggestions without it being meaningless to the post. 

 

7 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Revenant: Reave Instant kill Exploit... Introduce a max cap of 50% health drain while being able to change lateral direction like wukong's Cloud Walker

I don't get what you mean by calling it an exploit, do you mean the one where you instakill enemies (tho that one technically isnt an instakill, they do die within less than 2 seconds regardless of level) even with 40% strength by upping the mouse sensitivity to max?

Or do you mean just building for 250% strength then reaving through a thralled enemy? (or twice with slightly less)

The first one can be fixed by giving a cooldown instead of a max health value and I don't see the second one as an exploit.

 

 

[(XBOX)LZonut]

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

If you have suggestions on what you'd like to see, send ideas, cause I'm pretty much only focused on quick changes DE can do in their spare time, as well as bringing frames up to date

A way of accuratley portaying the Eidolon shields, such as giving it armor properties or damage reduction at some cost.

Enthrall either changed to represent an actual Revenant of an enemy, or making thralls make more sense by adding more lore to Eidolons.

Mesmer Skin to accurately portray Eidolon synovia or shields, most attacks don't just one hit an entire synovia for an Eidolon and energy could not just rebuild synovia that fast. Plus, Eidolons only can get a max of 6 synovia.

Reave to do something more than drain health. The way it is now, it just supports using it only on thralls, nothing else, other than maybe some weird speed build with Revenant.

Easy way to do this stuff and make a rework.

Make Revenant's shields be affected by his armor and give him some way to increase his armor, or reduce his shields for damage reduction. Really easy to just add health and armor effects on shields, or at least it would seem so.

Make Eidolons have lore of cursing the Plains at night, especially viable now because they could be somehow controlling the vampire kavats with a curse.

Make Mesmer Skin absorb damage dealt to turn into overshields or even a second shield bar so it can synergize better with healing and absorbing damage taken for Danse Macabre (try invinciblity and Danse Macabre on high level enemies in simulacrum, very powerful), while also portraying Eidolons and their synovia, and the way how synovia and shields protects health.

Reave to probably be changed to some Eidolon attack, but IDK. If it is to stay the same, give it an added affect of granting armor to synergize with his 2.

 

[Damocles]

15 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

I don't get what you mean by calling it an exploit, do you mean the one where you instakill enemies (tho that one technically isnt an instakill, they do die within less than 2 seconds regardless of level) even with 40% strength by upping the mouse sensitivity to max?

Or do you mean just building for 250% strength then reaving through a thralled enemy? (or twice with slightly less)

The first one can be fixed by giving a cooldown instead of a max health value and I don't see the second one as an exploit.

I was thinking the cool down method. Not time based but more, each cast only works once per enemy.

16 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

-All thralls gain have a unified duration (instead of it being per thrall)

-Fix Pillar made thralls not making pillars (I'm not sure if it's intended to be this way)

-Buff pillar duration to 15 seconds

-Reduce cast time of Reave to basically nothing, just remove the startup animation.

-Make shield/overshield pickups affected by strength

-Make Dance Macabre's status chance be affected by strength

-Decrease damage absorption decay rate of Dance Macabre

-Remove Dance Macabre detonating pillars

I dont like unified duration, the pillars are a side gimmick to me, Cast time of Reave is indeed kinda bad, but not as bad as Mirage's 4, Not sure on pickups being buffed because I find it sufficient the way it is currently, I thought dance macbre was already 100% status chance??? Not sure what this damage abosrption decay is, and I definitely didnt know it detonates pillars

[Madway7]

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

I dont like unified duration, the pillars are a side gimmick to me.

Unified duration is just so your thrall durations are always consistent with the duration you have on the ability, as for the pillar, it's supposed to be the secondary spread mechanic to enthrall, the first one being to rely on thralls to shoot at non thralled enemies, which is and probably always will be unreliable without buffs to thralls (knockdown/stagger immunity and faster movement speed), but even then you're relying on AI.

 

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Cast time of Reave is indeed kinda bad, but not as bad as Mirage's 4,

Not sure why you're comparing these two very different abilities

 

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Not sure on pickups being buffed because I find it sufficient the way it is currently,

Mostly to help the passive and provide more support to allies

 

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

I thought dance macbre was already 100% status chance??? 

 

it's base 20% status chance, 40% when boosted and it's unaffected by mods

 

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Not sure what this damage abosrption decay is

When you get damaged while using dance macabre the damage gets added to it up to a cap of 9999 damage, but this decays almost instantly so its hard to notice. (I think its like 2-5 seconds, unaffected by mods). 

 

2 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

and I definitely didnt know it detonates pillars

It does and I checked before posting my reply just to be sure that it still did.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Madway7

[Jcyrano]

13 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

bunch of stuff you said...

Your Imput  // My response (hopefully we make something good)

Ash:
Shuriken needs to scale with stealth prowess. //  Agree is not a bad Idea.     
Smoke Screen duration needs to be dramatically increased. //  NO, it's a smoke bomb not a Smoke Machine, although it could Cause (after the blind has passed) make the enemy have a chance to miss the attacks for few seconds.(Don't make it a Augment DE!!!! DO NOT, JUST NO).

Atlas:
Tectonics needs to become an AoE avatar earth bender style attack instead of one 15th of frost's snow globe. // Landslide Exist, does this.
Petrify needs to cost 25 energy instead, when Radial Blind offers more range, 360 degrees, and can often be free with Umbra's passive exploit. // Agree to reduce it to 50 (energy management should be On US.
Rumblers need to be the same as the conclave augment. I think Brozime did a video on this. // No, conclave Augment is there for a reason, IS PVP, but yes they should be smarter, more reactive, AND NOT walk into a Nullifier bubble.

Banshee:
Sonic boom needs a complete replacement. I would suggest scanning enemies through walls as utility as a sound themed ability. Call it Sonar and rename old sonar as Reverb. //  No, you're offering a worst Sonar, actually Sonic Boom needs to do extra damage to enemies affected by Silence
Silence would do better if enemy line of sight becomes visible to all party members. // So If you deafen an enemy you can see where he is seeing?? NO, just no.
Sound Quake needs scaling. Perhaps increased proportionally to each enemy killed in silence. // Sound Quake should do more damage to an enemy affected by Sonar(before considering the Sonar damage).

Baruuk:
Elude is AFK leech mode and is counter productive to active play. Remove this ability entirely in favor of a buff. // NO.
Lull cant be discount Sleepquinox, change it to a debuff ability and call it Intimidate. // A pacifist, Baruuk is a Pacifist, Not a mentally 15 Years Old Edgy as$hole filled with testosterone. Intimidate NO, Lull YES. 
Serene Storm needs scaling* and needs to work off energy rather that the unconventional and vastly limited restraint (which cannot be modded for like energy can with Flow, Rage, Arcanes, etc etc) // Manage energy though other abilities, the scaling goes to another Post we are not talking about Game difficulty here we are talking about Warframes Kits.

Chroma:
Spectral scream... You know the Ignis exists right? Top tier primary flame thrower, insane range and punch through, no energy cost to boot? Why not take some notes?.// You have made the worst mistake although you are not the first, compare an Ability to a Weapon, before you say: "Exalted whatever" those are weapons and you just complained about Baruuk one, BUT Spectral Scream needs to do Something nice not Just Apply elemental procs. Also Increase the Damage the enemies Take from said Element. 
Elemental Ward needs to be recastable // No, we need to manage abilities, we need those to actually Do something while shooting and Jumping otherwise THIS is CounterStrike not WARFRAME.
Vex armor should not increase modded damage but should instead be final damage like Mirage and Rhino. This is because adding modded damage devalues damage mods and rivens for no real reason. // It should devalue them All-together Twice 
Effigy needs scaling and... BECOME THE DRAGON. Right now, Effigy is basically Umbra's Passive, except Umbra does scaling damage with guns, costs no energy, is mobile, and provides free radial blind. // Effigy already Scales, but if you talk about damage, the effigy uses Spectral Scream.

Ember:
We'll see. // Agree.

Equinox: 
(Day) Rage should instead be a light damage buff and damage reduction to allies. // No, Night Buffs; Day wrecks people(She IS Lovely).
Provoke needs a higher base strength increase, since equinox's kit doesnt really scale with strength anyways, it would best be an unmodable +5/10/20/40% strength Aura to allies. // No, but it should be hindered to much if you go with Negative (bellow 100%) Strength 
(Night) Mend should just be a life steal aura rather than a high maintenance ability // NO, we are not giving AFK Power, Healing, Anything, you want something Fight for IT.

Excalibur:
Slash Dash and Radial Javalin needs to have the exalted blade mods applied. You literally use the Exalted Blade in the animation, but for some reason it behaves like an unranked, unmodded ability. // Why not I would Nerf the sh!t out of every mod anyway.

Frost:
Freeze could creatively be able to freeze the ground to heal frost when he stands on it. Freezing yourself to gain armor would be Very nice. // Not Healing, Makes no sense, But Wait for It.
Frost is in great need of stat boosts. // Maybe we can Change his passive for Armor Increase if Frost is Near "Iced" Enemies
Snow Globe needs to stop blocking incoming friendly fire like Gara's pass through equivalent. // What could actually do is Give a Damage Reduction buff to any Warframe that goes thru It for few seconds. 

Gara:
Spectrorage needs to be replaced with something useful and encourage active play. Why not Volt Shield-like panel of glass, that can be slotted to repair Mass Vitrify's broken panels? // No a volt shield-like panel of glass NO, not even ending the sentence i know where this goes, you complained about Atlas wall now you want one of Glass? Soo much NO, but Spectrorage could amplify the damage enemies do to themself and take while Inside also cause them to drop health orbs more often.

Garuda:
Doesnt like being healed, the design flaw is rooted so deep, the passive should literally encompass being unhealable by allies. // NOT Really only an Idiot thinks that being healed is bad, anyone with half a Brain knows that being death means NO DPS, you know that, I know that, good moving on. 

Gauss:
Recently became a god. No reworks here. // Not really but he IS GOOD, and brings New Tech with his 3° ability.

Harrow:
His entire kit needs to ally friendly, ie, kills from allies still procc the effects of his abilities, and also needs a damage reduction ability somewhere // Not REALLY, but I see your point, the energy regen, should apply for the "kill asist" That Harrow could obtain but we don't know how that is coded in the game.

Hildryn:
Perhaps Pillage should remove status effects on self. Casteable in her Aegis storm but only to remove status effects. // You Nerf her first then you want the Nerfed version of her ability to be used while his 4° ability is active.... mmm, let's not Nerf Her but, let's be able to cast his 2° ability canceling the 4° ability 'landing' animation.

Hydroid:
Needs scaling and faster casting animations. // The Casting animations could be Increased.

Inaros:
Devour and sandstorm needs scaling. I recommend scaling with enemy health and armor from self // Maybe Inaros could do a % of total or current enemy Health with Sandstorm if the enemies are affected by Devour.

Khora:
Venari AI sucks, but to be real, all beast AI sucks because they draw aggro, get themselves killed, rinse repeat. All beast AIs need some kind preservation system. Maybe be like Djinn and come back after dying. There's no real good way to fix bringing pets to a warzone... // Moding solves this to the point is no longer playable.
 

Limbo:
AFK leech exploit passive needs to be timed, allied damage cannot be prevented by rift. It shouldnt matter who is and isn't in the rift. Alleviate all confusion, and never have limbo prevent allied damage from taking place. Operator amps are already capable of attacking both dimensions simultaneously. So there you go! // No, AFK LEECH is bad but is not Limbo fault it the players Fault.  

Loki:
Decoy would be better if he didnt make noise, and upon being spotted by unalerted enemies, they make enemies focus on the decoy rather insta killing it. This would give his kit the ability to somewhat control enemy line of sight. If the enemies are already engaged, they will continue to shoot the decoy. // The Decoy "controls" enemy line of sight if the Decoy doesn't do sound the enemies that don't see it on the first place because of Intentional positioning wont  can I leave? Because a Loki player might be seeing this and... Next!! 

Mag:
Whatever happened to the thing she did in the Warframe trailer? Catching bullets and sending them back would have made her tankier and complete her kit // Agree I want to see that "magnetic" bullet-prove wall.

Mesa:
Ballistic Battery needs to either have no ceiling, or scale off as bonus damage. However, it would be better to make it something fun and less maintenance by turning it into a quick reload ability. // Maintenance is something we need otherwise we are AFK macro shooting, auto walking.

Mirage:
Hall of Mirrors needs to be recastable. // No, it gives a window otherwise we have Revenant mesmer-skin again.  
Sleight of Hand needs to be replaced with the Damage Reduction part of Eclipse. // No. Just NO.
Eclipse needs to be the damage bonus only. However, instead of outright having the damage bonus, her new Eclipse's damage buff should scale down like chroma's nerf. 3 times damage makes Rhino's 1.5 times damage go to shame. It should instead be 2 times damage at base, and scales up to the current 3 times when absorbing sunlight over time while decreasing down to 2 damage in shade. // NO, just because you want to compare her Damage buff with Rhino and Rhino loose you want to nerf her? NO, again
Prism needs a faster casting animation. 2 seconds of not being able to move is practically being stagger locked. // Agree that casting delay is too long 

Nekros:
Soul punch needs to punch through rather than send enemies to orbit. // DE din't picked the best CC it should knock them down like the explosion Status proc.
Terrify should make enemies cower in place, // This is great and after the cower effect they should have a chance to miss the attacks after all they are Afraid.
Shadows of the Dead needs to have its duration removed as nothing else Nekros has really scales with duration. Duration is currently his "stat dump". // If Duration is his "stat dump" Why would you remove it from the ability instead of changing it for something else.

Nezha:
Technically is fine the way he is // Agree, Pablo Did it.

Nidus:
Virulence cast speed is inversely proportional to range and needs to be made more consistent. // No, it has travel speed that's why it happens like it does Now, same goes for Frost Ice Wave anyway is not the end of the world.
Larva needs to be recastable to make a new one instead of "find the stuck geometry" // Sure, but to do so you pay "stacks"

Nova:
Portal needs a fixed minimum range of 20m since you're not going to mod for range when only 1 ability benefits from range while another (the all important damage reduction) scales better with negative range. // Wrong if you're modding negative range to play "Nova Tank" you're basically being a gun with legs, play another warframe Instead Rhino for example.
 

Nyx:
Mind Control was a missed opportunity to practically transference into an AI. // Can't wait to see how pathetic this would have been, especially when a Nox Points at the Drooling absent Nyx with his weird cannon. Spalt!! Nyx's viral-y corroded parts everywhere!!
Chaos is fine, but not very reliable I must admit, // Distraction as CC is not very Reliable.
Absorb needs to have a 30m base range. It currently hits literally nothing and is only exploited for its invincibility. // not a very smart Augment but why would you need 30m as base range? 

Oberon:

Needs scaling for his damage abilities. I think health is his theme, but health doesnt scale on frames. Maybe he could scale health like how Rhino can scale past his in iron skin, then the additional health can scale his damage abilities! // From Wikia: "Additionally, the target emits 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 orb projectiles that seek out enemies within 5 / 7.5 / 10 / 12.5 meters from the main target, over a duration of 12 seconds. Each orb deals 75 / 85 / 100 / 150 Radiation b Radiation damage, plus 15 / 20 / 25 / 35 % of the main target's maximum health and shields divided among the number of orbs; staggers and Puncture weakens its enemy target, and has a low chance to cause a Radiation Radiation proc.". You're Nowhere near on the assumption that health scaling is what Oberon has.

Octavia:
Separate her song from her functionality. I don't want note spam just to be able to use her. // Don't spam then, play smart; Don't spam, Dance. it's a Tempo Warframe, synchronize.

Revenant: Reave Instant kill Exploit... Introduce a max cap of 50% health drain while being able to change lateral direction like wukong's Cloud Walker // No. Please be conscient(no pun intended). the health cap might not be bad, but since he is constantly casting Mesmer-Skin he doesn't benefit from the "Rage" mechanic, What reave could do is Heal and cause the Thralls that Died during Reave have a chance to drop a Energy Orb ...'anything for the master'...

Rhino:
Damages need to scale off his scaling iron skin. // Wait What?? No, it already has Explosion instead of Impact procs when charging with Iron Skin active. 
Iron skin and Roar needs to be recastable. // No. It has the Augment that causes Piersing Damage and knocks down enemies and allow recasting.
Roar needs to be 2 time damage at base instead of the awkward 1.5 times making it pretty much 1/4th of Mirage's current buff. // No. He has survability builted in.  
Rhino stomp needs to stop displacing enemies the way it currently does: suspended in the air and safe from recast, head tucked and turned away from caster making headshots impossible // Use Harrow for Head shots or Vauban.

Saryn:
Molt should convert shields into health to match the natural function of Molting. Augment changed to provide health and shields as Molt takes damage. // Already absorbs damage to gain health, the augment already heals.

Titania:
Spellbind, // I like, but we should Increase the area from 5 meters to 7.
Tribute // Tribute Should Give one Buff combining all of them but 1/4 of the current amount (stackable up to 3 times maybe 4). 
Lantern // Enemies enthalled by the lantern Should follow it if the Lanters moves away, but again Distraction CC is not the best CC as of now.
are pretty much the same thing. // Not really.
Needs a new kit to stay relevant and easy to understand. Right now her abilities do too many different things. Make Spellbind a crowd control ability, make Tribute a small dmg buff ability that scales per kill, and latern a healing Aura in light (Mirage's Light vs shade mechanic). // No.

Trinity:
Well of Life should not have duration and be recastable. // No
Vampire leech should not have duration and be recastable. The damage isn't important anyways // No, also Vampire Leech deals 25%(while unmodded) of target health as TRUE DAMAGE, what could also do is change the Pulse every 1/4 of duration system for a: Constant Energy Flow, the amount of energy restored should be the same weather you modded for Positive Duration or Negative 
 while Link and Blessing desires positive duration their base durations needs to be at least doubled to keep up with more modern frames. // Not really, but a 50% duration increase would be nice, 75% damage reduction capped could be Increased to 80% maybe 85%

Valkyr:
Paralysis needs to have improved range and angle. Currently her Warcry is better CC than her actual CC ability. Hysteria needs to have ALL her negatives alongside her invulnerability removed. She doesnt need invulnerability, and her energy guzzling is by far the worst in game. Hysteria should become: Immunity to status effects, knock downs, and maintain her life steal. Talons need to scale with Acolyte mods because her range is too small. No more insta die from being nullified. // I'm not stepping this dangerous Place, I rather have some expert talking.

Vauban:
We'll see...

Volt:
Speed needs a duration increase as well as a gating animation to prevent the Affinity exploit Khora once had that got players banned. // The buff should also not affect me If I don't want it, Like Limbo, I have to walk thru the Portal, But regardless, Not sure about the duration buff, Since it can be recasted what you have been asking all the post!

Wisp:
Sol Gate needs to have a higher rate of fire. They're discount Peacemakers for sure, but people can use arcanes and mods to improve the hit speed. The beam currently doesnt hit as frequently as a continuous beam should. Instead of being a gate to the sun, it feels like an ignis with 2 free mods slots unused. // Again weapons to abilities, although you have a point, and the solution is already there, one of the motes should Increase the Fire rate of Sol Gate.

Zephyr:
Air Burst should become something that either knocks down enemies, or suspends them in the air for a short moment. // Does knocks down or at least it did yesterday.
Turbulance needs to be recastable // No, same as before, No.
Tornado needs to turn Zephyr into the tornado, Pulling in enemies towards her with the current hit box advantage of shooting the tornado to distribute all damage and status effects to enemies inside. Tornado does not need innate damage. // So basically Sandstorm from Inaros... No, really, No, Just No. 

Hope to see more Input!!
Atte Jcyrano.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Jcyrano
Visual

[Terrahero]

Valkyr needs a rework on all her abilities in my opinion.

 

Ripline:

This skill is a relic from a different Warframe, a pre-Parkour 2.0 Warframe when we were far less mobile and Ripline was a legit mobility tool that could get you places. Now it's redundant as a mobility tool. It does negligable damage, as a CC skill it's one of the worst in the game with only a short ragdoll and knockdown on a single enemy. Essentially this skill is redundant.

 

Warcry: 

A good selfbuff when built for intent to use. However it's terrible for almost everyone else as it's only usefull for melee and the armor buff doens't really help anyone outside of a very few select frames with a high enough base armor for it to matter slightly. Can't even be recast, so if you miss an ally with your buff then you need to wait for it to run out before you can try and apply it again, which runs absolutely counter to the popular Eternal War augment. As a CC skill it is redundant as well, anything close enough to be caught by War Cry will be a fine red mist .8seconds after you're done casting. Speaking of casting, it's base casting time is way to long. 

Warcry does a lot, tries to be a lot, but accomplishes only to be an adequate self-buff for Valkyr and even then it is one of the lesser self-buffs in the game.

 

Paralysis:

Useless, basicly. Short range, only a slight stagger that often does not even work for some reason and leaves enemies unaffected outside of the piddle of damage it does. Inflincts self-harm by draining shields, not a huge deal for Valkyr but it's there nonetheless. I'd say this is the single worse CC ability in the entire game. The only thing it has going for itself is it's cheap energy cost.

 

Hysteria:

Besides the myriad of bugs troubling it now, this skill has become quite obsolete as well. It's most attractive function now is the Life Steal for a quick self-heal. Pop into Hysteria, swipe an enemy, and drop it because it's a poor means to deal damage and can potentially get you killed if you run into a nulifier due to the Backlash or if it bugs out and does nothing while still guzzling your energy. 

 

Warframe has seen major leaps in the past 5 years and Valkyr has simply not evolved with it. I fear for the new Heat proc rework since Heat procs are super common and armor is all Valkyr really has. If the armor stripping is going to be significant and affect our Warframes as well Valkyr is going to be in serious trouble.

[DrivaMain]

20 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Vex armor should not increase modded damage but should instead be final damage like Mirage and Rhino. This is because adding modded damage devalues damage mods and rivens for no real reason

I disagree, there is a reason why Chroma is nerfed from total modded damage to base damage buff. Look up “Chroma one shotting full health Eidolon Teralysts (not synovias, but their full TOTAL health at the final phase)” Let’s not bring rivens as a consideration for balance. It’s best to leave the ability untouched, I am fine with ability range increase but that’s as far as I can go.

[Teridax68]

Discussion of each frame and how to change them could take several threads for each one, so I'll just limit my responses here to the more general points made here:

22 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

So I made a list of warframes and their short comings here:
 

  Hide contents

Lets list them all:
Universal*: Damage abilities DON'T scale due to a set amount of arbitrary damage that good for star chart enemies, but not enemies veterans will face.

I can partially agree with this: damage abilities don't scale... at least not as much as our weapons. When you look at the damage abilities on our frames, they do in fact scale with rank and typically with Power Strength, but the ones that fall off in higher-level gameplay are typically the ones that scale only with rank and Power Strength, without scaling with weapon mods, having their own system a la Saryn's Spores, or just having monstrous amounts of base damage a la Revenant's Danse Macabre. This is because weapon mods combine to provide significantly higher multipliers, despite operating frequently off of similar bases: even with a warframe build that fully commits to Power Strength, which involves making sacrifices in Efficiency, Duration, and personal durability, we can at most slightly more than triple our ability damage. With any weapon, however, it is absolutely standard to stack base damage mods, multishot/attack speed mods, elemental damage mods, and either status+damage or crit chance+damage mods, sacrifice nothing of note (these builds often even have room for a utility mod, which will be made even easier once we get Exilus slots too), and end up dealing literal dozens of times the base damage, to say nothing of the many other bonuses those mods will bring in terms of elemental damage variety and status.

Thus, in this respect I think looking exclusively at abilities for scaling may not be looking at the full picture, and trying to make individual abilities scale differently on a case-by-case basis sounds like a significant amount of work to resolve what is clearly a systemic problem. So long as our damage operates on similar baseline numbers, yet one subset can only scale much less through mods than the other, we will continue to have this issue, which is why I think more generally applicable changes should be in order: ideally, I'd like to rework weapon mods, because stacking layer upon layer of damage adds nothing to gameplay or customization, and is ultimately harmful to diversity, but as that's a whole major project of its own, a simpler and shorter-term solution could just be to massively increase base damage on abilities: having them start at similar numbers at Rank 0, but then increase significantly until they reach around ten times the value at Rank 3 would likely bridge the scaling gap, while also carrying the advantage of giving us damage abilities that'd still be somewhat useful even if we don't build for Power Strength, or outright sacrifice it. There are some more specific scaling suggestions in the OP that I like, namely making Ash's Shuriken scale with stealth bonuses, but that I feel should be a bonus on top of better damage, rather than a replacement.

22 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

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Universal**: Abilities that RELY on AI and contradicts active play in favor of AFK play. Often unreliable or wages effectiveness to a chance at doing what you think it will do

 

I can agree very much with this criticism, and I think pet abilities in Warframe are routinely poorly designed, because typically all they do is just spawn pets that play the game for you, without much in the way of interaction between those pets and the player. Atlas's Rumblers are a good example, and even companions as they currently exist have this problem. DE also seems to have acknowledged this to some extent, which is why they've tried to force some synergy with Revenant's Thralls and the rest of his kit (to the point where the Thralls themselves are essentially useless on their own), why they've made Wukong's clone almost entirely synergetic with the rest of his kit, and why they've been reluctant to give Vauban a proper turret, or Nyx the ability to make enemies kill each other adequately. Because of this, I agree with the suggestion to alter the design of existing pet abilities so that they require the participation of the player to work: this doesn't always have to involve the player assuming direct control of the AI entity, but it should require the AI entity's effectiveness to depend on the player's actions. To throw a very basic example at random, if enemies with their AI modified by Nyx's abilities specifically focused targets marked by her Psychic Bolts with a damage bonus, suddenly she'd have an added layer of gameplay where she'd be able to make her minions much more effective by directing their aggro, thereby turning Mind Control into a potentially useful damage ability without making the game play itself.

22 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

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Universal***: Abilities that are not recastable where it would otherwise make sense to be able to. Augments that alleviate this does not count as you lose out on a mod slot.

 

So this is where I can agree in the short-term, but also believe there are better long-term solutions: in the short term, I absolutely agree that steroids should be recastable by default, and that we shouldn't be relying on augments for such a basic convenience. Non-recastable steroids tend to exist either because of legacy design or a misguided desire for balance, neither of which have worked out, so that can and should certainly change.

However, to a larger extent, I believe that the whole model of constantly refreshing a buff on a duration is itself a piece of legacy design: as far as interesting gameplay goes, pressing a button every minute or so just to keep benefiting from a particular stat bonus isn't really that far up the list, and a whole bunch of frames are known for having notoriously underwhelming gameplay because most of what they do boils down to constantly reactivating timers, with Chroma as the clearest example. In most cases, these stat bonuses aren't particularly interesting or interactive either, as far too many of our steroids boil down to damage output increases or damage reduction, which to me makes them a step removed from AI abilities. In this respect, while I don't think persistent steroids should be removed outright from Warframe, I think the game could benefit from having many of them taken away or reworked, if only so that every new or reworked frame doesn't need some mandatory damage mitigation boost just to be considered on par with the rest. Those persistent bonuses that survive, in turn, I think need to depend on the player's actions in order to be truly effective: for all her current problems, Banshee for example at least has this interesting gameplay somewhat with her Silence, in that the ability's this aura that temporarily stuns enemies and sets them up to be much more easily murdered, though only for a limited window of time. With that in place, an ability wouldn't need to be constantly refreshed in order to be interactive, and so I think they could have their gating redesigned so that the player can have them always on without having to count the seconds until they expire, which is already the case for some abilities like Nezha's Warding Halo, or Inaros's Negation Swarm.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Teridax68

[Leqesai]

22 hours ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

ah, rip... What should I do? add spacing? Bold the name of each frame?

To be totally frank, there is just too much to get through with the original post. There are conflicting ideas, multiple points of confusion and a general lack of specificity to the whole thing.

Maybe if you tried focusing on how to improve one thing at a time and structured your ideas a bit more it would make more sense.

 

[peterc3]

On 2019-10-14 at 4:25 PM, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Mag doesnt need to HEAL, but she doesnt have... anything. You might say shields but... Hildryn has shields and she has A LOT of it. Mag has a descent amount of shields, but so does everyone else. But we all know that shields are practically paper. Recastability is probably the easiest to change. I come from a programming back ground. I see assets are already there either augments. Also it's not hard reset a stack. Code isn't as hard as people make it out to be. Yes DE doesn't need to listen. But they should listen. They dont have to make anything based on what we ask, but you're implying that I have a gun to their face or something. We asked for Vex armor recastability because on Devstream, they said they'll nerf it, and the twitch chat asked for "at least put in recastability" and they snapped their fingers. Lastly, what do you mean surface level differences between eclipse and roar? They're similar in function, They're both recastable (if Rhino has the augment) but Eclipse has +200% while Rhino has +50%. Also, do I need to go into details?

"If (Roar.Active()) {Roar.reset(); Roar.activate();}" or something along those lines. I dont actually know how it's currently coded

I didn't mention code. I don't know their code and neither do you, so commenting on the ease of changing it is a nothing argument.

Clearly there is something to whether an ability is recastable or not from the game design angle. You even go from every ability should be recastable to carving out exceptions for frames like Loki.

[Kaggelos]

11 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So this is where I can agree in the short-term, but also believe there are better long-term solutions: in the short term, I absolutely agree that steroids should be recastable by default, and that we shouldn't be relying on augments for such a basic convenience. Non-recastable steroids tend to exist either because of legacy design or a misguided desire for balance, neither of which have worked out, so that can and should certainly change.

However, to a larger extent, I believe that the whole model of constantly refreshing a buff on a duration is itself a piece of legacy design: as far as interesting gameplay goes, pressing a button every minute or so just to keep benefiting from a particular stat bonus isn't really that far up the list, and a whole bunch of frames are known for having notoriously underwhelming gameplay because most of what they do boils down to constantly reactivating timers, with Chroma as the clearest example. In most cases, these stat bonuses aren't particularly interesting or interactive either, as far too many of our steroids boil down to damage output increases or damage reduction, which to me makes them a step removed from AI abilities. In this respect, while I don't think persistent steroids should be removed outright from Warframe, I think the game could benefit from having many of them taken away or reworked, if only so that every new or reworked frame doesn't need some mandatory damage mitigation boost just to be considered on par with the rest. Those persistent bonuses that survive, in turn, I think need to depend on the player's actions in order to be truly effective: for all her current problems, Banshee for example at least has this interesting gameplay somewhat with her Silence, in that the ability's this aura that temporarily stuns enemies and sets them up to be much more easily murdered, though only for a limited window of time. With that in place, an ability wouldn't need to be constantly refreshed in order to be interactive, and so I think they could have their gating redesigned so that the player can have them always on without having to count the seconds until they expire, which is already the case for some abilities like Nezha's Warding Halo, or Inaros's Negation Swarm.

We could make some abilities have cooldown maybe? So that you have to choose carefully when to use a specific buff, instead of having it constantly turned on, regardless of your energy level. But thats just my two cents, maybe im wrong.