Revenant's abilities are dumb

[frenzy64]

Enthrall: lets you have up to 7 minions, none of which are useful since they don't do damage and most likely your teammates are just going to kill them instantly. They take aggro and that's about it. You only really need it for your other synergies... except your other synergies aren't good and you usually just end up killing your thralls

Mesmer skin: isn't half bad. But why is it based on charges? It could be better and is also revenant's main tool for survival

REAVE: Do you not have magus repair or elevate? Do you not have a method of healing outside of needing to use this ability? Okay well you can regain mesmer skin charges but only up to a maximum of 7 if you somehow manage to have 7 thralls and pass through all of them, so just recast mesmer skin while bullet jumping. Okay well you use it to regain charges while using danse macabre, right? You get instant cast time and reduced cost when using it with danse macabre. Nope you killed all your thralls with danse macabre so there's no one to reave and even if you do have thralls why do they suddenly limit your turning angle when using danse macabre and reave.

Danse macabre: A very good attack. Damage increases as you take damage but taking damage is bad, fortunately you can still collect damage from mesmer skin, but mesmer skin only has so many charges so you need to use reave to get more mesmer skin stacks to keep the damage increase active with your danse macabre. However your killed all your thralls because you used danse macabre and have no one to reave so you have to try and get in range to reave people for health instead of mesmer skin which is hard because you're killing everyone and even then health gets obliterated easily. But on the bright side you get 50 overshields for killing your thralls and everyone knows how useful shields are.

 

So TDLR

1 isn't useful but you need it for "synergy"

2 is good but could be better and it wants you to use synergy with 3

3 isn't useful and synergy is pointless, you can just recast 2 while bullet jumping

4 is good but you're left vulnerable so you need the synergy from your 3, 2 and 1 but you killed your 1 thralls so you can't use synergy with 2 and 3 so there's no synergy.

[taiiat]

that's the point of your Thralls, you're supposed to create them so that you can Kill them. they aren't a goon Squad to defend you, they're a resource. that they are a goon Squad is just a byproduct.

why is Mesmer Skin based on charges? uhhh
because it's Invulnerability?

[DrivaMain]

Oh boy I can see a certain users with the letter G gonna milk this thread soon.

I prefer invincibility charges instead of damage reduction because it scales very well in very high level where the damage reduction isn’t gonna cut it *cough* bombards and enemy grenades *cough*. 

His reave is the best 1 shot ability in the game because of the x10 multiplier to leech health/shields if it hit thralls. You could just enthrall a Nox or a Bursa and it will die in 1 reave cast.

 

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

I prefer invincibility charges instead of damage reduction because it scales very well in very high level where the damage reduction isn’t gonna cut it *cough* bombards and enemy grenades *cough*. 

His reave is the best 1 shot ability in the game because of the x10 multiplier to leech health/shields if it hit thralls. You could just enthrall a Nox or a Bursa and it will die in 1 reave cast.

While it can 1 shot bursas, it def cannot 1 shot Nox's or eximus units, thanks to the DR they have.

Although the 50% DR eximus units have can be mitigated by just reaving through the same enemy more than once (either via multiple casts or stearing into the same enemy more than once). Also doesn't matter if you have the fissure corruption buff with 100% lifesteal before getting it or the Arbitration strength bonus, but even with these 1 shotting a non eximus Nox isn't possible I believe.

Also it's not an x10 multiplier, it's x5 and the UI is misleading because it does not list the lifesteal for non thralled enemies in the game.

 

And I have a feeling the one shot combo may be unintended, but it's just speculation on my part given the circumstances we got the buff. 

 

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

Oh boy I can see a certain users with the letter G gonna milk this thread soon.

lol

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's the point of your Thralls, you're supposed to create them so that you can Kill them. they aren't a goon Squad to defend you, they're a resource. that they are a goon Squad is just a byproduct.

why is Mesmer Skin based on charges? uhhh
because it's Invulnerability?

Just because the Thralls are supposed to die doesn’t mean it was a good design decision. Especially when you consider the fact that they’ll likely die before you even get a chance to use them.

Also 100% damage reduction is pretty much completely redundant because there’s nothing in the game that rewards you for doing insanely long endurance runs. 90% DR and an arc guardian set is more than enough.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Oh boy I can see a certain users with the letter G gonna milk this thread soon.

His reave is the best 1 shot ability in the game because of the x10 multiplier to leech health/shields if it hit thralls. You could just enthrall a Nox or a Bursa and it will die in 1 reave cast.

 

You called?

And Reave is actually the worst one shot in the game. It’s the only ability where it’s lead up and/or execution limits the number of enemies you can kill. Any frame with a blind can blind an infinite number of enemies and kill them with a dagger. And Garuda has no limit on how many enemies her blood orb can hit, if they’re in the radius they die.

[Aryustailm]

The main issue with the thralls is you have to target and enthrall each of them individually (and they can die as fast as you're tapping the button). If it were combined with Mesmer Skin to become an effect of shooting you with it up, it would be a vast improvement - and it would leave a slot for something new.

[Teridax68]

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's the point of your Thralls, you're supposed to create them so that you can Kill them. they aren't a goon Squad to defend you, they're a resource. that they are a goon Squad is just a byproduct.

The fact that Thralls are meant to be used as an expendable resource does not prevent the fact that they are next to useless as actual fighting minions, nor that the synergies with them are so ineffectual as to often be hardly worth considering. If Enthrall is not meant to be used as a goon squad ability, then it should likely not be generating a goon squad to begin with.

Quote

why is Mesmer Skin based on charges? uhhh
because it's Invulnerability?

There are plenty more invulnerability effects that are either duration-based (e.g. Wukong's new Cloud Walker/Defy), or that draw from a pseudo-resource pool (e.g. Rhino's Iron Skin). The OP is visibly not criticizing the fact that the invulnerability effect runs out, but rather that it uses a weird depletion system, one that is severely inconsistent in most of Warframe's combat due to the massive variance in enemy rates of attack.

Beyond that, I also agree in general with the OP that Revenant's abilities are poorly-designed overall, and the frame's buffs don't do much to disguise the fact that he's likely one of the worst-designed frames in the game. He's split right down the middle on both thematics on gameplay: he can't seem to decide whether he's a minion-mancing vampire frame, or a laser-dancing Eidolon frame, and the end result is a warframe that fails to deliver adequately on both. These two halves conflict with each other, and the forced synergies between his abilities and his Thralls do very little to remedy this, as every single one of them, from the damage pillars/overshield drops on death to the increased drain from Reave, are crap. He needs a redo, one that makes his abilities synergize naturally with each other, and produce legitimately desirable effects, too.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Teridax68

[nslay]

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

There are plenty more invulnerability effects that are either duration-based (e.g. Wukong's new Cloud Walker/Defy), or that draw from a pseudo-resource pool (e.g. Rhino's Iron Skin). The OP is visibly not criticizing the fact that the invulnerability effect runs out, but rather that it uses a weird depletion system, one that is severely inconsistent in most of Warframe's combat due to the massive variance in enemy rates of attack.

Yeah, it's definitely weird because it has an undocumented time gating system for the stacks. I learned about it from @zhellon recently. So, for example, Orokin Sentries and Ospreys don't instantly drain your stacks. It also allows environmental damage to pass through which is also weird. However, owing to a combination of factors like enemies not actually have 100% accuracy, the stun effect and the aforementioned time gating aspect, his Mesmer Skin is actually surprisingly viable. His only serious weaknesses are from a handful of special enemies that ignore the time gating aspect and Mesmer Skin stun with high fire rate and 100% accuracy: Profit Taker (cannon), Expoiter (cannon, phase 1 only), Tusk Bulkor (turret), Eidolons (seeking bullets, wiki is wrong).

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Beyond that, I also agree in general with the OP that Revenant's abilities are poorly-designed overall, and the frame's buffs don't do much to disguise the fact that he's likely one of the worst-designed frames in the game. He's split right down the middle on both thematics on gameplay: he can't seem to decide whether he's a minion-mancing vampire frame, or a laser-dancing Eidolon frame, and the end result is a warframe that fails to deliver adequately on both. These two halves conflict with each other, and the forced synergies between his abilities and his Thralls do very little to remedy this, as every single one of them, from the damage pillars/overshield drops on death to the increased drain from Reave, are crap. He needs a redo, one that makes his abilities synergize naturally with each other, and produce legitimately desirable effects, too.

I agree that the Eidolon theme doesn't match. He's also bad at fighting Eidolons despite his lore (and the wiki is wrong about immunities from many Eidolon attacks). However, his synergies actually work more naturally when the game stops being laughably easy. I'll admit, you won't be using his full kit in 10 minute missions like those found in Sorties, but you also don't really need any Warframe abilities for most of the game (because it's too easy). Here's how his kit is supposed to work. All of this works more naturally when enemies don't die from a sneeze.

 

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If Enthrall is not meant to be used as a goon squad ability, then it should likely not be generating a goon squad to begin with.

There are plenty more invulnerability effects that are either duration-based (e.g. Wukong's new Cloud Walker/Defy), or that draw from a pseudo-resource pool (e.g. Rhino's Iron Skin). The OP is visibly not criticizing the fact that the invulnerability effect runs out, but rather that it uses a weird depletion system, one that is severely inconsistent in most of Warframe's combat due to the massive variance in enemy rates of attack.

perhaps.

well the price Mesmer Skin pays for Recastable Invulnerability, is that Enemies vary in Attack Rate. but you get Invulnerability out of it, so.....
it's more effective vs the highest Level Enemies the 99% ever bother to see than anything else, just is high Cast maintenance.

[Teridax68]

11 minutes ago, taiiat said:

perhaps.

well the price Mesmer Skin pays for Recastable Invulnerability, is that Enemies vary in Attack Rate. but you get Invulnerability out of it, so.....
it's more effective vs the highest Level Enemies the 99% ever bother to see than anything else, just is high Cast maintenance.

I mean, if we're talking about tradeoffs, it would perhaps make more sense for the invulnerability to be consistently short-lived, so the inconsistency is more of an inconvenience than an actual tradeoff, even with the hidden timer. Basically, charge systems aren't the best design for defensive abilities in Warframe outside of maybe Archwing, so even if the intent is for the effect to be high-maintenance, a low duration or health buffer system would likely work better.

 

[nslay]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I mean, if we're talking about tradeoffs, it would perhaps make more sense for the invulnerability to be consistently short-lived, so the inconsistency is more of an inconvenience than an actual tradeoff, even with the hidden timer. Basically, charge systems aren't the best design for defensive abilities in Warframe outside of maybe Archwing, so even if the intent is for the effect to be high-maintenance, a low duration or health buffer system would likely work better.

 

It's really not that high maintenance.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

It's really not that high maintenance.

Not generally, no, but its maintenance is highly variable to the point of inconsistency, is one of its problems. I'm not claiming the ability is always high-maintenance in practice, I merely pointed out that there are ways to make it more consistent, whether or not the design intent is for the ability to be high-maintenance.

[nslay]

Just now, Teridax68 said:

Not generally, no, but its maintenance is highly variable to the point of inconsistency, is one of its problems. I'm not claiming the ability is always high-maintenance in practice, I merely pointed out that there are ways to make it more consistent, whether or not the design intent is for the ability to be high-maintenance.

I don't know. In my experience it's pretty consistently reliable in most settings. The only sense of inconsistency I experience is when, for example, a Tusk Bulkor shows up in PoE bounties. If I'm not paying attention... bam, I hear *hmmph* sound when all those stacks vanish almost instantly (Tusk Bulkors have those nasty turrets). The Profit Taker and Exploiter (phase 1) fights can also be particularly painful to face with Revenant... though it can be done! Just very very high maintenance on the Mesmer Skin stacks with those nasty undebrelly cannons they have. Not the greatest bosses to use Revenant.

I think normal Corpus Moas and the Oxium Ospreys are probably the worst for non-boss enemies. There was an event some months ago where the Corpus robots took over in the missions and these machines almost exclusively spawned in large numbers those event missions. If you're solo and you get like 14-15 of them all at once, sure they can strip off all his stacks fast (an ability strength Revenant will have 14-15 stacks). But you can just as easily Enthrall one of the Moas/Ospreys and they almost all immediately attack the Thrall (the ones that aren't stunned anyway!). So there's ways to deal with these kinds of situations. If you're on a team, your team mates draw some of the fire and Revenant is OK. If you're solo, a Thrall will do it just as effectively.

I am admittedly a bit biased because I am so used to playing him. I keep a very sharp eye on his stacks and have almost muscle reflexes for avoiding/getting him out of bad situations.

Mesmer Skin is definitely a weird defense ability. In Earth missions, you are losing a stack to like 1-5 damage. Bring him to Mot, and you lose a stack to hundreds of damage. Wait some hours, and god knows how much damage is mitigated per stack. It's really at a disadvantage for the lower level stuff.

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

I am admittedly a bit biased because I am so used to playing him. I keep a very sharp eye on his stacks and have almost muscle reflexes for avoiding/getting him out of bad situations.

Mesmer Skin is definitely a weird defense ability. In Earth missions, you are losing a stack to like 1-5 damage. Bring him to Mot, and you lose a stack to hundreds of damage. Wait some hours, and god knows how much damage is mitigated per stack. It's really at a disadvantage for the lower level stuff.

I think both of these are at the core of the disagreement here: you obviously play Revenant in a way that eliminates the unreliability of his 2, because you're constantly looking at his stacks and recasting the ability as needed, whereas most players are likely not doing so out of the expectation that there would instead be some sort of consistent rhythm to the refresh rate, as is usually the case for other similar abilities. Similarly, there is an inconsistency between this ability and most other defensive steroids, in that the level of maintenance is approximately the same even in very low-level missions, when players are typically used to not having to worry too much about maintenance at those ranges.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think both of these are at the core of the disagreement here: you obviously play Revenant in a way that eliminates the unreliability of his 2, because you're constantly looking at his stacks and recasting the ability as needed, whereas most players are likely not doing so out of the expectation that there would instead be some sort of consistent rhythm to the refresh rate, as is usually the case for other similar abilities. Similarly, there is an inconsistency between this ability and most other defensive steroids, in that the level of maintenance is approximately the same even in very low-level missions, when players are typically used to not having to worry too much about maintenance at those ranges.

Unless you bring Revenant up against something like Tusk Bulkor, Profit Taker, Exploiter, you're almost certainly not going to experience a massive loss of stacks in a very short amount of time. You just need to check occasionally and recast. Sure it's not like Chroma's Vex Armor with a duration, but you still have to look and check on that timer too. It's the same with Revenant's stacks. Checking on Revenant's stacks at least comes with a visual cue: 1) Were you in a fight? 2) How many were stunned? (each stun counts as a stack).

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, nslay said:

Unless you bring Revenant up against something like Tusk Bulkor, Profit Taker, Exploiter, you're almost certainly not going to experience a massive loss of stacks in a very short amount of time. You just need to check occasionally and recast. Sure it's not like Chroma's Vex Armor with a duration, but you still have to look and check on that timer too. It's the same with Revenant's stacks. Checking on Revenant's stacks at least comes with a visual cue: 1) Were you in a fight? 2) How many were stunned? (each stun counts as a stack).

But the problem isn't necessarily that Revenant will lose tons of stacks instantly, but simply that he will lose stacks at an inconsistent and often unpredictable rate, whereas Vex Armor's duration is perfectly predictable, provided it doesn't get nullified. Looking around to see how many enemies are being stunned (and so specifically by Mesmer Skin) is itself not particularly reasonable for the average player to keep track of, as Warframe is a much more chaotic game overall.

[(XBOX)LZonut]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

Unless you bring Revenant up against something like Tusk Bulkor, Profit Taker, Exploiter, you're almost certainly not going to experience a massive loss of stacks in a very short amount of time.

Lord knows how many times I've fought a tusk thumper or ship, or even some turret types corpus place draining my charges in 5s. And yes, I am using a high power strength build, for those who were wondering. I did not bring a 30% power strength Revenant.

Edited October 16, 2019 by (XB1)LordZonut

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)LordZonut said:

Lord knows how many times I've fought a tusk thumper or ship, or even some turret types corpus place draining my charges in 5s. And yes, I am using a high power strength build, for those who were wondering. I did not bring a 30% power strength Revenant.

Tusk Thumpers are easy for Revenant. Just these particularly enemies are really bad for Revenant:

Profit Taker

Exploiter Orb (phase 1)

Tusk Bulkor

Eidolons (seeking bullets)

 

These enemies have high fire rate, 100% accuracy, immunity to the Mesmer Skin stun and bypass that strange time gating mechanism in Mesmer Skin. Hence, they can easily strip all the stacks very quickly. Though, make no mistake, you can do Profit Taker and Exploiter Orb effectively with Revenant, just that the Mesmer Skin is higher maintenance.

[nslay]

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But the problem isn't necessarily that Revenant will lose tons of stacks instantly, but simply that he will lose stacks at an inconsistent and often unpredictable rate, whereas Vex Armor's duration is perfectly predictable, provided it doesn't get nullified. Looking around to see how many enemies are being stunned (and so specifically by Mesmer Skin) is itself not particularly reasonable for the average player to keep track of, as Warframe is a much more chaotic game overall.

I disagree. It's very easy to keep the Stacks up which is why players can do insanely high endurance runs in the first place (as high as 24 hours... some crazy person did a 24 hour Kuva Survival with Revenant). It's really not that hard or inconsistent.

Also, the Ropalolyst fight works counter to what you claim is reasonable for players in Warframe. Her Nullifying Scream randomly nullifies abilities for Operator and Warframe alike. Yet, she is one of the easiest boss fights in the game. You just have to remember that you might have been nullified!

[Teridax68]

20 minutes ago, nslay said:

I disagree. It's very easy to keep the Stacks up which is why players can do insanely high endurance runs in the first place (as high as 24 hours... some crazy person did a 24 hour Kuva Survival with Revenant). It's really not that hard or inconsistent.

Then why do players point out the inconsistency of the steroid on Revenant, and specifically Revenant?

20 minutes ago, nslay said:

Also, the Ropalolyst fight works counter to what you claim is reasonable for players in Warframe. Her Nullifying Scream randomly nullifies abilities for Operator and Warframe alike. Yet, she is one of the easiest boss fights in the game. You just have to remember that you might have been nullified!

I think you misunderstood me here: my point here was never that ability nullification automatically made for gameplay, but simply that duration-based steroids have, by definition, perfectly predictable durations, unless they get nullified, in which case it is still generally easy to be aware of the fact. What I am saying here is that Mesmer Skin has one of the less predictable depletion rates, because in spite of the mini-timer for each charge that (sometimes) activates, the depletion rate still depends heavily on enemy numbers, rates of fire, etc., in a manner that you yourself mentioned was counter-intuitive due to how it didn't depend on damage per shot.

[PsiWarp]

Enthrall should make lasting minions for Rev to take advantage of.

Changes I'd make is Enthrall now marks an enemy for resurrection on death into a Spectralyst copy with improved stats, spawning together with the pillar like how the Eidolons arise from the waters at night. Enemies stunned by Mesmer Skin causes Enthrall to chain between stunned enemies marking them all if in range of each other.

Thralls and pillars also leave this "mask" on new enemies. For simplicity's sake the mark/mask is the Vomvalyst above their heads. There is no limit to the amount of marks, only limit of thralls active. If the mask disappears before the enemy dies, the enemy suffers a knockdown.

Both masked enemies and Spectralysts give their existing benefits to Mesmer Skin (re-charge), Reave (extra shield/health leech) and Danse Macabre (Overshield orbs). Activate Danse Macabre to teleport all Spectralysts to you. Danse Macabre can damage masked enemies, but not Spectralysts.

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Then why do players point out the inconsistency of the steroid on Revenant, and specifically Revenant?

They generally don't. Most posters criticize Enthrall/Reave and praise Mesmer Skin as "god mode". The posters that criticize Mesmer Skin often just look at Revenant's ability text (without actually really playing Revenant) and imagine problems with him that don't actually exist.

I don't mean to be anecdotal, but just to really drive how easy Mesmer Skin makes the game. When I was a new player struggling with T4 Void to unlock Eris... I mod'd Revenant with basic mods and took him all through T4 Void even to Mot. And I did this with 7 Mesmer Skin stacks. This frames make Mot easy with basic mods and no augments. It is not hard to play him. His Mesmer Skin is not as inconsistent, unreliable, or unpredictable as you claim it to be.

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think you misunderstood me here: my point here was never that ability nullification automatically made for gameplay, but simply that duration-based steroids have, by definition, perfectly predictable durations, unless they get nullified, in which case it is still generally easy to be aware of the fact. What I am saying here is that Mesmer Skin has one of the less predictable depletion rates, because in spite of the mini-timer for each charge that (sometimes) activates, the depletion rate still depends heavily on enemy numbers, rates of fire, etc., in a manner that you yourself mentioned was counter-intuitive due to how it didn't depend on damage per shot.

I didn't misunderstand you. My point is that Ropalolyst makes you check that your skills are still active (and that's any frame, not just Revenant). There's no obvious or predictable indication that your abilities have been nullified. This is not the same as walking into a Nullifier bubble and realizing that, oh you've been nullified. Players do not have trouble with the Ropalolyst fight despite the seemingly unpredictable nullifications (or even cut scenes can do it randomly). They learn to look at their skill bar and recast as needed. This is the kind of play you claim is not reasonable for players with Revenant's Mesmer Skin.

I think if Revenant lost his stacks very quickly, this would be a valid issue. But he doesn't actually lose his stacks very quickly in most settings and all you have to do is learn to occasionally look and recast as needed (or use the visual cue of stunned enemies which I think adds "predictability" just fine!).

[Teridax68]

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

They generally don't. Most posters criticize Enthrall/Reave and praise Mesmer Skin as "god mode". The posters that criticize Mesmer Skin often just look at Revenant's ability text (without actually really playing Revenant) and imagine problems with him that don't actually exist.

This thread's very OP raises doubts here, as it is by no means the only one making that same criticism. Moreover, Mesmer Skin being powerful does not prevent it from also being perceived as inconsistent due to its charge system.

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

I don't mean to be anecdotal, but just to really drive how easy Mesmer Skin makes the game. When I was a new player struggling with T4 Void to unlock Eris... I mod'd Revenant with basic mods and took him all through T4 Void even to Mot. And I did this with 7 Mesmer Skin stacks. This frames make Mot easy with basic mods and no augments. It is not hard to play him. His Mesmer Skin is not as inconsistent, unreliable, or unpredictable as you claim it to be.

I don't think anyone here has stated that Revenant is hard to play, and really, one can take most frames through the Star Chart with basic mods and do decently, so I'm not entirely sure how this relates to the discussion.

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

I didn't misunderstand you. My point is that Ropalolyst makes you check that your skills are still active (and that's any frame, not just Revenant). There's no obvious or predictable indication that your abilities have been nullified. This is not the same as walking into a Nullifier bubble and realizing that, oh you've been nullified. Players do not have trouble with the Ropalolyst fight despite the seemingly unpredictable nullifications (or even cut scenes can do it randomly). They learn to look at their skill bar and recast as needed. This is the kind of play you claim is not reasonable for players with Revenant's Mesmer Skin.

People do not have issue with the Ropalolyst fight, because the Ropalolyst is by and large a particularly easy enemy to face. You are thus using an incredibly specific example, one that is uncharacteristic of how the rest of the game plays, to make a general point, which I think ends up undermining it more than anything else.

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

I think if Revenant lost his stacks very quickly, this would be a valid issue. But he doesn't actually lose his stacks very quickly in most settings and all you have to do is learn to occasionally look and recast as needed

The issue being discussed is not one purely of speed, though, but of overall consistency, thus I think the issue applies regardless of how quick the stacks deplete.

5 minutes ago, nslay said:

(or use the visual cue of stunned enemies which I think adds "predictability" just fine!).

Just so we're clear, Revenant's ability bar already indicates exactly how many charges he has at any given time, so I'm not sure why we're even discussing such indirect means of assessing his charge count to begin with. 

[nslay]

14 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This thread's very OP raises doubts here, as it is by no means the only one making that same criticism. Moreover, Mesmer Skin being powerful does not prevent it from also being perceived as inconsistent due to its charge system.

OK, I've been arguing with Gears for almost a year now. This is the first time I've seen you post in such a topic (if I'm not mistaken). Now I may not remember everyone, but there are key posters that participate in these Revenant discussions. I also have a pretty good feel about all the criticisms and complaints about Revenant. Feel free to look at all the discussions in the past year. Most posters do not really take issue with Mesmer Skin. You will find only the same 2-3 posters who really dissent about Mesmer Skin in the past year of discussion.

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't think anyone here has stated that Revenant is hard to play, and really, one can take most frames through the Star Chart with basic mods and do decently, so I'm not entirely sure how this relates to the discussion.

OK. Just as a reminder, T4 Void is not ordinary Star Chart. Enemies do +200% more damage in the T4 branch of Void. Even experienced players can die there. Now with 7 Mesmer Skin stacks, a newbie with basic mods and Revenant can survive Mot for 20 minutes without dying. Without even taking any damage. A newbie can even solo Mot with Revenant. This even generalizes to Arbitrations and Sorties just as well.

Revenant is easy to play and survive with. Good! Nobody has stated he is hard to play... I'll take that.

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This thread's very OP raises doubts here, as it is by no means the only one making that same criticism. Moreover, Mesmer Skin being powerful does not prevent it from also being perceived as inconsistent due to its charge system.

OK, I'll accept that you perceive Mesmer Skin as inconsistent. Whatever you mean by that. I am completely not understanding you now (see below)...

17 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

People do not have issue with the Ropalolyst fight, because the Ropalolyst is by and large a particularly easy enemy to face. You are thus using an incredibly specific example, one that is uncharacteristic of how the rest of the game plays, to make a general point, which I think ends up undermining it more than anything else.

The way I read your position (and I may be wrong), you essentially claim it's unreasonable for players to look at the skill bar or use visual cues like stunned enemies because they ideally need some kind of duration-based mechanic or something predictable for the cessation of a defense ability. This is the gold standard for you, right? Checking a number on the skill bar or using visual cues is unreasonable for players because the game is too chaotic. Am I understanding you right? I'm just pointing out that we have an easy boss fight where you're expected to check your skill bar because abilities are nullified without warning or clue. There is no predictability of cessation of abilities, so this shouldn't be reasonable for players, right?

OK, this is besides the point... My issue here is mostly that you're claiming what is reasonable for players (like me!). In practice, Revenant players do not really have a problem with checking the charge count and occasionally recasting Mesmer Skin (and often take 0% damage in the whole mission despite doing this).

19 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The issue being discussed is not one purely of speed, though, but of overall consistency, thus I think the issue applies regardless of how quick the stacks deplete.

Well, I'm just pointing out that if Revenant actually lost stacks impractically quickly, then it would not actually be reasonable to expect to players to look at the charge count at a very high frequency, would it (I would imagine so)? It would also be harder to survive. But since his stacks don't actually decrease at an impractical rate in most settings, one can occasionally glance at the charge count and recast as needed. And we have examples of ridiculous endurance feats with him owing to Mesmer Skin.

22 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Just so we're clear, Revenant's ability bar already indicates exactly how many charges he has at any given time, so I'm not sure why we're even discussing such indirect means of assessing his charge count to begin with. 

OK good. We're on the same page. And this value generally doesn't fall very quickly. So you can occasionally glance at it and recast as needed. You can even use the stunned enemies as a visual cue. So what's your problem? What is inconsistent about this?

 

You know what, I'm completely lost where you're going with this. You say that nobody is claiming Revenant is hard play, Mesmer Skin is a powerful ability, you acknowledge that you can look at the charge count on the skill bar, I mentioned visual cues for added predictability... I am failing to see your point about inconsistency.