Revenant's abilities are dumb

Teridax68 · October 16, 2019

2 hours ago, nslay said:

OK, I've been arguing with Gears for almost a year now. This is the first time I've seen you post in such a topic (if I'm not mistaken). Now I may not remember everyone, but there are key posters that participate in these Revenant discussions. I also have a pretty good feel about all the criticisms and complaints about Revenant. Feel free to look at all the discussions in the past year. Most posters do not really take issue with Mesmer Skin. You will find only the same 2-3 posters who really dissent about Mesmer Skin in the past year of discussion.

A cursory look at threads that discuss Revenant here shows they all propose reworks to Mesmer Skin, and even on Reddit, there is consistent criticism of the charge system. There is indeed at least one user focusing their topics on the issue, but there is clearly a notable amount of people who also have been raising that same criticism.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

OK. Just as a reminder, T4 Void is not ordinary Star Chart. Enemies do +200% more damage in the T4 branch of Void. Even experienced players can die there. Now with 7 Mesmer Skin stacks, a newbie with basic mods and Revenant can survive Mot for 20 minutes without dying. Without even taking any damage. A newbie can even solo Mot with Revenant. This even generalizes to Arbitrations and Sorties just as well.

Which still does not prevent it from being easy by today's standards due to the enemy's level ranges there. Even the ability to tank damage at that level is nothing particularly special at this point.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

The way I read your position (and I may be wrong), you essentially claim it's unreasonable for players to look at the skill bar or use visual cues like stunned enemies because they ideally need some kind of duration-based mechanic or something predictable for the cessation of a defense ability. This is the gold standard for you, right? Checking a number on the skill bar or using visual cues is unreasonable for players because the game is too chaotic. Am I understanding you right? I'm just pointing out that we have an easy boss fight where you're expected to check your skill bar because abilities are nullified without warning or clue. There is no predictability of cessation of abilities, so this shouldn't be reasonable for players, right?

So as a side note, I do in fact think that asking the player to constantly check their ability bar or some other meter isn't the best gameplay, but that's not even the strict standard I'm operating on here: my point is that it is generally good for the player to have some intuitive sense of when their steroid is going to run out, which is the case for duration-based steroids when the player gets a handle on how long they last. Even in the case of buffer-based steroids like Iron Skin or Warding Halo, it is possible to approximately gauge how much heat one can take before the effect will run out. By contrast, as you yourself mentioned, Mesmer Skin doesn't have that intuitiveness, because its depletion has no correlation with the amount of damage taken, nor with any specific duration, to say nothing of the many inconsistent interactions with the environment, certain enemies, etc. that you brought up.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

OK, this is besides the point... My issue here is mostly that you're claiming what is reasonable for players (like me!). In practice, Revenant players do not really have a problem with checking the charge count and occasionally recasting Mesmer Skin (and often take 0% damage in the whole mission despite doing this).

Okay, but as evidenced by what I linked, my claim is not being made in isolation, and ultimately the real issue here is that you're the one actually doing what you're accusing me of here: you are claiming that Mesmer Skin is reasonable because you, a veteran Revenant player who openly admits to constantly checking his charge numbers, don't have any real issues with the ability. It should be obvious that if you spend a large amount of time committing to a frame and their quirks, their quirks will eventually become ingrained in your playstyle, yet that does not prevent said quirks from making the frame less approachable for those who aren't ready to dedicate that same amount of time. I myself main Trinity, and have the Link and Blessing durations on my build hard-wired into my muscle memory, to the point where I rarely have any downtime on my damage reduction and know how to handle the casts while doing other things: that does not prevent the fact that the gameplay tied to constantly recasting Link, and spamming Blessing, is tedious to many, and deserving of change towards something more approachable. A similar argument can be made here I think for Revenant and Mesmer Skin's charge system.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

Well, I'm just pointing out that if Revenant actually lost stacks impractically quickly, then it would not actually be reasonable to expect to players to look at the charge count at a very high frequency, would it (I would imagine so)? It would also be harder to survive. But since his stacks don't actually decrease at an impractical rate in most settings, one can occasionally glance at the charge count and recast as needed. And we have examples of ridiculous endurance feats with him owing to Mesmer Skin.

Sure, but even if he didn't, players still can't easily get an intuitive grip of the ability, again because the ability varies in a way that you yourself said is weird. For sure, Mesmer Skin enables great feats of tanking, if only because the player can just constantly recast Mesmer Skin from its invulnerability, but its great power does not prevent the fact that it's probably clunkier than it needs to be for many.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

OK good. We're on the same page. And this value generally doesn't fall very quickly. So you can occasionally glance at it and recast as needed. You can even use the stunned enemies as a visual cue. So what's your problem? What is inconsistent about this?

Again, the rate at which the charges deplete. When the player looks at their ability bar for a duration-based steroid, it at least gives them a clear picture of when the ability will end, whereas seeing X charges remaining means they could still stay on for a while longer, or could get depleted within half the time period. At least with a buffer, the health-like value gives an idea of how much heat the player can take if they're familiar enough with the enemy's overall damage output in their mission.

2 hours ago, nslay said:

You know what, I'm completely lost where you're going with this. You say that nobody is claiming Revenant is hard play, Mesmer Skin is a powerful ability, you acknowledge that you can look at the charge count on the skill bar, I mentioned visual cues for added predictability... I am failing to see your point about inconsistency.

An ability having indicators and an ability not progressing at an intuitive or consistent rate are two separate issues, and even you mentioned the ability operates weirdly due to how it's based on individual hits, rather than damage or duration. My point here is therefore that it may benefit some players to keep the effects and intent of the ability, while finding another way of deploying and maintaining the steroid that would be smoother overall for players not terribly experienced with playing Revenant.

nslay · October 16, 2019

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

A cursory look at threads that discuss Revenant here shows they all propose reworks to Mesmer Skin

And guess what, he is not complaining about Mesmer Skin (especially for any of your or OPs reasons). Did you read his suggestion? It wouldn't even address the problem you have. It would just allow Revenant to earn stacks back from stunned enemies.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

and even on Reddit,

I'm admittedly not familiar with the discussions that happen on Reddit. However, this post makes a suggestion that is also at odds with your complaint by keeping the charge system (this particular suggestion sounds like JonLemon's suggested change to give overshields a purpose).

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

there is consistent

This post praises Mesmer Skin (most of them on this forum also do too). In the critiques, it does not mention that Mesmer Skin will not let Revenant fall below 2 HP while active even though self damage and environmental damage pass through. It also does not bring up the complaint you have. So yes, you can do self-damage tomfoolery with Revenant just fine (try it!).

EDIT: Just going to transplant this here from another part of my post (it does already have a time gating feature):

Everything else in the game has bad accuracy and low fire rate and the couple exceptions (Orokin Sentries, Ospreys) are obscurely time gated by Mesmer Skin (a duration elapses before they can strip another stack even though they hit you multiple times, try it).

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

criticism

And the author of this Reddit post probably didn't really play Revenant much or just looked at his ability text and imagined a shortcoming. Issues with Grineer sound imagined. A small group of Grineer will be asleep if they all managed to hit Revenant. You can kind of tell this person didn't spend a lot of time with Revenant because they don't even notice Reave's potent synergy with Enthrall.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Which still does not prevent it from being easy by today's standards due to the enemy's level ranges there. Even the ability to tank damage at that level is nothing particularly special at this point.

It remains this easy for level 1700 enemies. I gave you a video of him dancing (literally dancing) around Mot at these levels. But regardless, T4 Void really is a special case because enemies do +200% damage and are a real threat to even experienced players. Everybody hits like a truck, experienced players sometimes die... in a Star Chart mission.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So as a side note, I do in fact think that asking the player to constantly check their ability bar or some other meter isn't the best gameplay, but that's not even the strict standard I'm operating on here: my point is that it is generally good for the player to have some intuitive sense of when their steroid is going to run out, which is the case for duration-based steroids when the player gets a handle on how long they last. Even in the case of buffer-based steroids like Iron Skin or Warding Halo, it is possible to approximately gauge how much heat one can take before the effect will run out. By contrast, as you yourself mentioned, Mesmer Skin doesn't have that intuitiveness, because its depletion has no correlation with the amount of damage taken, nor with any specific duration, to say nothing of the many inconsistent interactions with the environment, certain enemies, etc. that you brought up.

Occassionally glancing does not mean constant or frequent. I even explicitly addressed this many times. If it was really that way, it would be a lot harder to survive with Revenant and nobody would be able to use him for super long endurance missions. I think Iron Skin is an odd counterexample since, like Mesmer Skin, you have to occasionally check on your Ferrite armor amounts.

And yes, there are those four enemies that make Mesmer Skin really hard to use in the way you seem be complaining about: Profit Taker, Exploiter (phase 1), Tusk Bolkor and Eidolons (seeking bullets). Just those four. Everything else in the game has bad accuracy and low fire rate and the couple exceptions (Orokin Sentries, Ospreys) are obscurely time gated by Mesmer Skin (a duration elapses before they can strip another stack even though they hit you multiple times, try it). Couple this with drawing fire with Thralls and you are sitting on stacks for quite some time before you need any recast. If it weren't this way, Mesmer Skin would be absolutely impossible to effectively use in practice.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but even if he didn't, players still can't easily get an intuitive grip of the ability, again because the ability varies in a way that you yourself said is weird. For sure, Mesmer Skin enables great feats of tanking, if only because the player can just constantly recast Mesmer Skin from its invulnerability, but its great power does not prevent the fact that it's probably clunkier than it needs to be for many.

A newbie player can walk into Mot with Revenant with nothing but basic mods and survive for 20 minutes. I think that speaks for volumes itself on the simplicity and ease of gameplay with this frame. I am not seeing the clunkiness and counterintuitive play here. Mesmer Skin does its intended job and especially works well in Mot tanking those +200% damage hits.

Again, there is no constant or frequent checking. Actually, if you do those long endurance missions, you are eventually using Enthrall+Reave to kill enemies at some point... and then this isn't even a problem anymore (see the video). At that point, you are exploiting Reave's synergy with Enthrall and keeping stacks up.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Again, the rate at which the charges deplete. When the player looks at their ability bar for a duration-based steroid, it at least gives them a clear picture of when the ability will end, whereas seeing X charges remaining means they could still stay on for a while longer, or could get depleted within half the time period. At least with a buffer, the health-like value gives an idea of how much heat the player can take if they're familiar enough with the enemy's overall damage output in their mission.

They don't really deplete all that fast. Just casually checking will do it most of the time. Look, at this point, I think it's a learn-to-play Revenant problem. If it were really that burdensome to keep track of your stacks, Revenant would be a lot harder to play and long endurance missions would be more difficult to pull off. But this is not the case.

Maybe there is one aspect not being discussed here. Solo Revenant players are usually playing with Thralls. So in addition to the bad accuracy, low fire rate of enemies (nevermind that they are stunned on hit).... your Thralls are drawing almost all fire away from Revenant.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

An ability having indicators and an ability not progressing at an intuitive or consistent rate are two separate issues, and even you mentioned the ability operates weirdly due to how it's based on individual hits, rather than damage or duration. My point here is therefore that it may benefit some players to keep the effects and intent of the ability, while finding another way of deploying and maintaining the steroid that would be smoother overall for players not terribly experienced with playing Revenant.

I fail to see your point in most gameplay. If you walk into Profit Taker/Exploiter/Eidolons or run into a Tusk Bolkor, then yes, Mesmer Skin can be super high maintenance and require constant/frequent checking. Everything else? It's non-intrusive, pretty easy and straightforward to occasionally check your stacks. That is mostly because most enemies have bad accuracy and low fire rate. The normal enemies that have high fire rates somehow get some obscure time gating treatment.

Just out of curiosity, if they changed Mesmer Skin, how would you see it changed/improved?

Edited October 16, 2019 by nslay
Transplant some text

(XBOX)LZonut · October 16, 2019

7 hours ago, nslay said:

OK good. We're on the same page. And this value generally doesn't fall very quickly. So you can occasionally glance at it and recast as needed. You can even use the stunned enemies as a visual cue. So what's your problem? What is inconsistent about this?

You know what, I'm completely lost where you're going with this. You say that nobody is claiming Revenant is hard play, Mesmer Skin is a powerful ability, you acknowledge that you can look at the charge count on the skill bar, I mentioned visual cues for added predictability... I am failing to see your point about inconsistency.

If now you still fail to see his point, then you probably cannot see his argument in your perspective, therefore this discussion should be over. I just want to see others post on this thread and see what they think.

Teridax68 · October 16, 2019

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

And guess what, he is not complaining about Mesmer Skin (especially for any of your or OPs reasons). Did you read his suggestion? It wouldn't even address the problem you have. It would just allow Revenant to earn stacks back from stunned enemies.

Both suggestions literally redo the ability entirely. Which part of their threads gave the impression that they wanted to keep the ability in its current state, exactly?

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

I'm admittedly not familiar with the discussions that happen on Reddit. However, this post makes a suggestion that is also at odds with your complaint by keeping the charge system (this particular suggestion sounds like JonLemon's suggested change to give overshields a purpose).

It nonetheless points out how the charges deplete from any source of damage, as you yourself noted. The change they are proposing would not only make the ability much more consistent, but would also make it significantly more powerful by having the charges last longer.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

This post praises Mesmer Skin (most of them on this forum also do too). In the critiques, it does not mention that Mesmer Skin will not let Revenant fall below 2 HP while active even though self damage and environmental damage pass through. It also does not bring up the complaint you have. So yes, you can do self-damage tomfoolery with Revenant just fine (try it!).

It praises Mesmer Skin for its power and CC, but specifically criticizes its implementation, notably its charge system. I never claimed that Mesmer Skin had strictly no positive traits, and pointing to praise that has nothing to do with the mechanic being actually criticized is a transparent attempt at distracting from the fact that many more people have criticized Mesmer Skin's charge system, despite your claims to the contrary.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

EDIT: Just going to transplant this here from another part of my post (it does already have a time gating feature):

Everything else in the game has bad accuracy and low fire rate and the couple exceptions (Orokin Sentries, Ospreys) are obscurely time gated by Mesmer Skin (a duration elapses before they can strip another stack even though they hit you multiple times, try it).

And? How does this make the ability more consistent?

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

And the author of this Reddit post probably didn't really play Revenant much or just looked at his ability text and imagined a shortcoming. Issues with Grineer sound imagined. A small group of Grineer will be asleep if they all managed to hit Revenant. You can kind of tell this person didn't spend a lot of time with Revenant because they don't even notice Reave's potent synergy with Enthrall.

Okay, so I just did a bit of testing in the Simulacrum, and as it turns out, there is no hidden timer between depleted charges, as you had claimed. If Revenant gets hit by two different enemies within a near-instantaneous period of time, he will lose two charges within that time, regardless of how close those attacks are to each other. I therefore have no idea where you got a different impression with all of your experience playing Revenant.

With regards to this particular attempt at dismissal, though, while enemies would still be put to sleep upon hitting Revenant, the lack of an internal timer means that a small group of Grineer could in fact deplete quite a few of his charges within a very short span of time. This also feeds back into the above, and contradicts your claim that the ability's nonexistent timer makes it more consistent. More broadly, you are conspicuously attempting to dismiss the opinion of every other poster I've brought up, even though they consistently prove my point that there is a desire to change Mesmer Skin, with criticism typically pointing to its charge system.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

It remains this easy for level 1700 enemies. I gave you a video of him dancing (literally dancing) around Mot at these levels. But regardless, T4 Void really is a special case because enemies do +200% damage and are a real threat to even experienced players. Everybody hits like a truck, experienced players sometimes die... in a Star Chart mission.

Sure, but we're specifically talking about the Star Chart here, not level 1700, so bragging about Revenant's tankiness at low levels doesn't really say much. What the upper bound does say, however, is that Revenant breaks the game's difficulty scaling, precisely because Mesmer Skin completely ignores enemy damage values and can be recast at anytime, meaning that so long as Revenant presses 2 at the right time, he gets to completely ignore enemy levels. That is, by the way, not a good thing.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

Occassionally glancing does not mean constant or frequent. I even explicitly addressed this many times. If it was really that way, it would be a lot harder to survive with Revenant and nobody would be able to use him for super long endurance missions. I think Iron Skin is an odd counterexample since, like Mesmer Skin, you have to occasionally check on your Ferrite armor amounts.

Except Iron Skin can be stacked to literal millions of hitpoints and has a visual indicator directly on Rhino himself to indicate how close it's to wearing out, meaning one can maintain it at a decent rate without even needing to check the exact values or the ability bar. Also, you're singing a different tune here from a previous post:

10 hours ago, nslay said:

I keep a very sharp eye on his stacks and have almost muscle reflexes for avoiding/getting him out of bad situations.

So which one is it, then? Are you just occasionally glancing at Revenant's stacks, or are you keeping "a very sharp eye" on them, building up specialized recasting reflexes, and keeping constant track of stunned enemies at a full 360 range?

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

And yes, there are those four enemies that make Mesmer Skin really hard to use in the way you seem be complaining about: Profit Taker, Exploiter (phase 1), Tusk Bolkor and Eidolons (seeking bullets). Just those four. Everything else in the game has bad accuracy and low fire rate and the couple exceptions (Orokin Sentries, Ospreys) are obscurely time gated by Mesmer Skin (a duration elapses before they can strip another stack even though they hit you multiple times, try it). Couple this with drawing fire with Thralls and you are sitting on stacks for quite some time before you need any recast. If it weren't this way, Mesmer Skin would be absolutely impossible to effectively use in practice.

But it is in fact fiddly to use in practice, as others have pointed out above. Enemy inaccuracy does not prevent the fact that, when they actually do hit Revenant, the rate at which his stacks deplete varies wildly from fight to fight, and so in ways that are not intuitive relative to other durability steroids.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

A newbie player can walk into Mot with Revenant with nothing but basic mods and survive for 20 minutes. I think that speaks for volumes itself on the simplicity and ease of gameplay with this frame. I am not seeing the clunkiness and counterintuitive play here. Mesmer Skin does its intended job and especially works well in Mot tanking those +200% damage hits.

A frame can have clunky and counterintuitive mechanics, yet still be easy to play, especially if we're restricting ourselves to the Star Chart here. Baruuk, Hildryn and Valkyr are all frames with an infamous degree of clunk in their ability sets, for example, yet that still have an easy time tanking all the way through the Star Chart and even Sorties. Again, you seem to be failing to answer the actual point at hand, and seem to be addressing arguments I've never made in the first place: in this case, I have never argued that Mesmer Skin was a weak tanking ability, and in fact I not only agreed that it's strong, but in fact believe it may be too strong in certain situations. I have, however, pointed out that the ability's one of the less consistent durability steroids in the game, and so due to its charge system, which doesn't work well with variable enemy rates of fire in Warframe, none of which what you just posted contradicts.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

Again, there is no constant or frequent checking. Actually, if you do those long endurance missions, you are eventually using Enthrall+Reave to kill enemies at some point... and then this isn't even a problem anymore (see the video). At that point, you are exploiting Reave's synergy with Enthrall and keeping stacks up.

You are contradicting your past self here, as pointed out above. Additionally, I took the time to go through the video you linked in greater detail, and from 0:24 to 0:25 you can clearly see from the ability bar that Revenant drops from 15 to 11 charges near-instantly, which casts further doubt as to why you'd claim the existence of a timer.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

They don't really deplete all that fast. Just casually checking will do it most of the time. Look, at this point, I think it's a learn-to-play Revenant problem. If it were really that burdensome to keep track of your stacks, Revenant would be a lot harder to play and long endurance missions would be more difficult to pull off. But this is not the case.

You are yet again contradicting yourself here, and considering how even your own video disproves what you are saying about how Mesmer Skin works, I don't even know if I can even take your word on anything you say about Revenant now. Sure, the frame scales freakishly well into ultra-high levels thanks to Mesmer Skin and Reave, but that itself does not prevent his kit from being notoriously clunky in many different ways.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

Maybe there is one aspect not being discussed here. Solo Revenant players are usually playing with Thralls. So in addition to the bad accuracy, low fire rate of enemies (nevermind that they are stunned on hit).... your Thralls are drawing almost all fire away from Revenant.

Sure, but that too is inconsistent and cannot be adequately predicted, as even your own video shows. I don't really see what you're trying to argue here.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

I fail to see your point in most gameplay. If you walk into Profit Taker/Exploiter/Eidolons or run into a Tusk Bolkor, then yes, Mesmer Skin can be super high maintenance and require constant/frequent checking. Everything else? It's non-intrusive, pretty easy and straightforward to occasionally check your stacks. That is mostly because most enemies have bad accuracy and low fire rate. The normal enemies that have high fire rates somehow get some obscure time gating treatment.

If you fail to see my point after I have stated and explained it plainly, then I do not know what more I can do to get you to understand, as it's becoming increasingly clear that understanding others and their points is not in fact your goal in this discussion. You have completely changed your argumentation from post to post, used a falsehood as a key argument, and frequently argued through straw men and red herrings, as is also the case here: thus, I think it is fair to question your motives in this argument, particularly as you have been excessively defensive of Revenant throughout this thread, and routinely dismissive of contrary opinions.

58 minutes ago, nslay said:

Just out of curiosity, if they changed Mesmer Skin, how would you see it changed/improved?

In the short-term, I'm not married to any particular idea, so I think there's a range of choices that could include the following:

Go with the Negation Swarm model and actually implement a timer, so that when Revenant gets hit, he gets a grace period where he loses no Mesmer Skin charges, but still reflects attacks back at enemies and stuns them normally.
Change Mesmer Skin into a Nezha-like damage reduction+buffer effect, where Revenant gains damage reduction, plus CC/status immunity and a buffer to draw from instead of health, but then also gets to add the health + shields of his Thralls to the buffer.
Have Revenant consume a Thrall to heal and gain a period of damage+status immunity.

In the long-term, though, I don't think simply pressing a button for on-demand damage mitigation is the most interesting effect to have, which is why I think the third of the above suggestions would likely work out the best, as it involves paying some other cost (plus it has Revenant play more into the theme of sacrificing expendable minions for personal gain). In general, as mentioned at the start of this thread, I think Revenant needs some pretty drastic changes, and at that stage talking about any individual ability would likely need to fit into the larger context of a comprehensive rework.

Borg1611 · October 16, 2019

The main issue with his kit from the start for me was the anti-synergy between his 1 and 4. They added the energy pillar projectiles re-enthrall mechanic, but left in that his 4 blows up the pillars, which completely left in the obnoxious interaction between his 4 and his 1 and often makes you not bother casting his 1 at all if you're going to be using his 4 at all.

If they simply removed the 4 detonating the pillars mechanic, you'd actually at least have a use for his 1 since the pillars would then keep re-enthralling on their own. You're not going to waste your time on his 1 so you can have a thrall for a few seconds before you use his 4 again. The only purpose his 1 currently serves is if you want to afk defend a mobile defense point or something.

Also, I guess the thralls enthralled by energy pillars don't leave their own energy pillars so you couldn't chain them anyway, which means you'd have to waste your time re-casting his slow one for little to no benefit constantly.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Borg1611

nslay · October 16, 2019

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Both suggestions literally redo the ability entirely. Which part of their threads gave the impression that they wanted to keep the ability in its current state, exactly?

Neither of them complain about consistency and tweak the skill in its current form... like being able to gain a stack from Reaving a stunned enemy does not sound like a complete redo of anything.

EDIT: OK, you're right. These rework suggestions are more substantial than I give it credit. I went back and read other parts I missed and there are more changes to Mesmer Skin than I either remembered or misread.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

t nonetheless points out how the charges deplete from any source of damage, as you yourself noted. The change they are proposing would not only make the ability much more consistent, but would also make it significantly more powerful by having the charges last longer.

OK, I didn't read it carefully enough. In my opinion (and I've said it before), that suggestion would actually make Mesmer Skin weaker as you would need to wait for your shields to deplete entirely for the CC effect of Mesmer Skin to take effect. However, it would give more meaning to his passive and overshields which might be nice.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, so I just did a bit of testing in the Simulacrum, and as it turns out, there is no hidden timer between depleted charges, as you had claimed. If Revenant gets hit by two different enemies within a near-instantaneous period of time, he will lose two charges within that time, regardless of how close those attacks are to each other. I therefore have no idea where you got a different impression with all of your experience playing Revenant.

With regards to this particular attempt at dismissal, though, while enemies would still be put to sleep upon hitting Revenant, the lack of an internal timer means that a small group of Grineer could in fact deplete quite a few of his charges within a very short span of time. This also feeds back into the above, and contradicts your claim that the ability's nonexistent timer makes it more consistent. More broadly, you are conspicuously attempting to dismiss the opinion of every other poster I've brought up, even though they consistently prove my point that there is a desire to change Mesmer Skin, with criticism typically pointing to its charge system.

The time gating applies to one and only one enemy at a time. So if one Orokin Sentry is bombarding you at a high fire rate, it's not stripping any stacks per shot until some duration afterward. This is not the same scenario as two enemies shooting and shooter A triggering a time gate that applies to shots from shooter B. I specifically single out Orokin Sentries and Ospreys because they have some of the highest fire rates and highest accuracy in the game and would ordinarily pose a huge threat to Revenant's Mesmer Skin. This is surprisingly not the case.

It's not exactly like Health Conversion as the Reddit poster suggested, but that's how it currently works.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But it is in fact fiddly to use in practice, as others have pointed out above. Enemy inaccuracy does not prevent the fact that, when they actually do hit Revenant, the rate at which his stacks deplete varies wildly from fight to fight, and so in ways that are not intuitive relative to other durability steroids.

You saw the video. It doesn't matter if it's level 1700 or not. Those enemies are not shooting with a high fire rate, are distracted by Thralls, and importantly do not have 100% accuracy. And not once does the player ever lose all of his stacks amidst all of those enemies... and he/she is using a dance emote on the middle of a fire fight. This video very clearly demonstrates the misconception about a handful of Grineer stripping all the stacks instantly. It doesn't actually happen that way as you can see.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You are contradicting your past self here, as pointed out above. Additionally, I took the time to go through the video you linked in greater detail, and from 0:24 to 0:25 you can clearly see from the ability bar that Revenant drops from 15 to 11 charges near-instantly, which casts further doubt as to why you'd claim the existence of a timer.

Actually, 11 stacks is pretty darn good. You don't need to recast Mesmer Skin for 11 stacks. I personally recast around 2-3. Do you see him losing almost all his stacks at any point in that video? The handful of enemies should be stripping all 15 stacks off pretty fast right? I mean, 15 seems like a small number! And he/she's been doing this for what... 190 minutes? I disagree, this casts more doubt on your claim about inconsistency. You have a player playing a dance emote in a fire fight with numerous enemies after playing 190 minutes and we are not seeing the mythical situation of instant stripping of all stacks or even a player struggling with the stacks.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You are yet again contradicting yourself here, and considering how even your own video disproves what you are saying about how Mesmer Skin works, I don't even know if I can even take your word on anything you say about Revenant now. Sure, the frame scales freakishly well into ultra-high levels thanks to Mesmer Skin and Reave, but that itself does not prevent his kit from being notoriously clunky in many different ways.

I don't think the video disproves anything I've said. The video shows a Revenant player that isn't losing stacks at the alarming rates you and others claim. And it very clearly shows why Revenant can do this: It's achieved through a combination of low enemy accuracy, low enemy fire rate and CC effects like stuns and Thralls.

What I don't see in this video is Revenant struggling with an inconsistent defensive ability at all. Do you honestly see this player struggling with inconsistent stacks? Be honest!

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Sure, but that too is inconsistent and cannot be adequately predicted, as even your own video shows. I don't really see what you're trying to argue here.

I'm trying to argue (and demonstrate) that your interpretation of Mesmer Skin's consistency and the scenario of instant loss of stacks due to a handful of enemies is almost entirely fiction save for the 4 enemies I listed.

Now Thralls are surprisingly more effective and consistent than you give it credit. You Enthrall an enemy, they instantly have a higher threat level and almost always attract all the attention. It works well in Defense, Mobile Defense and Defense-like bounties in PoE and Fortuna. And this one has a duration... that can't be all that inconsistent to you, no?

You saw in the video while the Revenant is dancing and Enthrall wears off... only at that moment does attention get redirected to Revenant.

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

If you fail to see my point after I have stated and explained it plainly, then I do not know what more I can do to get you to understand, as it's becoming increasingly clear that understanding others and their points is not in fact your goal in this discussion. You have completely changed your argumentation from post to post, used a falsehood as a key argument, and frequently argued through straw men and red herrings, as is also the case here: thus, I think it is fair to question your motives in this argument, particularly as you have been excessively defensive of Revenant throughout this thread, and routinely dismissive of contrary opinions.

I think I've been very nice and considerate to you (at least I've been trying to). The motive for me is: I've been playing Revenant for almost a thousand hours. You're claiming something that is not consistent with my experience. I typically speak out in these topics when I think I've found a falsehood or misconception. I've shown you a video of very effective (and I would say "consistent") use of Mesmer Skin and you've tried to turn it on me claiming that there is a problem with consistency despite the sparse shots that player ever receives and the sheer length of that Survival mission. Aside of the use of Miter, that is a very typical scenario for Revenant. We do not see him losing all his stacks or the player struggling to keep his stacks up. The handful of Grineer example does not happen in practice.

What I think is that you don't play Revenant very much because you went to Simulacrum to test something that you would have experienced in a typical Void or Corpus mission if you played him more. You would have seen, for example, an Oxium Osprey with its laser repeater bombarding you at a discordant rate compared to the loss of stacks. I think you have imagined a problem with Revenant that does not really exist. At the same time, I think you are playing both sides here: On one hand, you argue that Mesmer Skin has an inconsistency problem and can very quickly lose stacks and render Revenant vulnerable in typical settings like with a handful of Grineer. If it were actually true, it would make Mesmer Skin the opposite of an effective and strong skill... but yet you claim you also think it's a strong (and maybe overpowered) skill. How do you hold both of these positions?

21 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

In the short-term, I'm not married to any particular idea, so I think there's a range of choices that could include the following:

Go with the Negation Swarm model and actually implement a timer, so that when Revenant gets hit, he gets a grace period where he loses no Mesmer Skin charges, but still reflects attacks back at enemies and stuns them normally.

Change Mesmer Skin into a Nezha-like damage reduction+buffer effect, where Revenant gains damage reduction, plus CC/status immunity and a buffer to draw from instead of health, but then also gets to add the health + shields of his Thralls to the buffer.

Have Revenant consume a Thrall to heal and gain a period of damage+status immunity.

In the long-term, though, I don't think simply pressing a button for on-demand damage mitigation is the most interesting effect to have, which is why I think the third of the above suggestions would likely work out the best, as it involves paying some other cost (plus it has Revenant play more into the theme of sacrificing expendable minions for personal gain). In general, as mentioned at the start of this thread, I think Revenant needs some pretty drastic changes, and at that stage talking about any individual ability would likely need to fit into the larger context of a comprehensive rework.

I'll have to think about your latter two suggestions. As for the first, there really is actually a timer. It just applies per enemy (see above). If it worked exactly like Health Conversion, I think it would be great (but also maybe overpowered)!

Edited October 17, 2019 by nslay
Self correction

selig_fay · October 17, 2019

12 часов назад, nslay сказал:

The time gating applies to one and only one enemy at a time. So if one Orokin Sentry is bombarding you at a high fire rate, it's not stripping any stacks per shot until some duration afterward. This is not the same scenario as two enemies shooting and shooter A triggering a time gate that applies to shots from shooter B. I specifically single out Orokin Sentries and Ospreys because they have some of the highest fire rates and highest accuracy in the game and would ordinarily pose a huge threat to Revenant's Mesmer Skin. This is surprisingly not the case.

On this you have 1 ability, which distracts mobs. You will never lose your stacks unless you spin all the time. His 4 ability is trash.

Teridax68 · October 17, 2019

12 hours ago, nslay said:

Neither of them complain about consistency and tweak the skill in its current form... like being able to gain a stack from Reaving a stunned enemy does not sound like a complete redo of anything.

The first proposes a complete redo, and the other threads that went in-depth on the criticism of Mesmer Skin criticized the inconsistency of the charges. Meanwhile, the second rework also criticizes Mesmer Skin and proposes to make it a much less repetitive, if not always-on ability. I don't see why we're pretending that Mesmer Skin is perfect here.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

OK, I didn't read it carefully enough. In my opinion (and I've said it before), that suggestion would actually make Mesmer Skin weaker as you would need to wait for your shields to deplete entirely for the CC effect of Mesmer Skin to take effect. However, it would give more meaning to his passive and overshields which might be nice.

The OP says strictly nothing about the CC immunity no longer applying while taking shield damage.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

The time gating applies to one and only one enemy at a time. So if one Orokin Sentry is bombarding you at a high fire rate, it's not stripping any stacks per shot until some duration afterward. This is not the same scenario as two enemies shooting and shooter A triggering a time gate that applies to shots from shooter B. I specifically single out Orokin Sentries and Ospreys because they have some of the highest fire rates and highest accuracy in the game and would ordinarily pose a huge threat to Revenant's Mesmer Skin. This is surprisingly not the case.

Then why did you not specify this to begin with? Your original claim was simply that Mesmer Skin had time gating, which is misleading, and the fact that the time-gating is per-enemy means you've in fact been arguing falsely against its inconsistency relative to groups of enemies the whole time, as one of the major arguments made was that stack depletion varies heavily based on the amount of heat Revenant is taking from enemies, plural.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

It's not exactly like Health Conversion as the Reddit poster suggested, but that's how it currently works.

Health Conversion's timer is per stack, not per enemy.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

You saw the video. It doesn't matter if it's level 1700 or not. Those enemies are not shooting with a high fire rate, are distracted by Thralls, and importantly do not have 100% accuracy. And not once does the player ever lose all of his stacks amidst all of those enemies... and he/she is using a dance emote on the middle of a fire fight. This video very clearly demonstrates the misconception about a handful of Grineer stripping all the stacks instantly. It doesn't actually happen that way as you can see.

You are doing nothing but repeat yourself here, and argue off of a straw man. The point being made was never that Revenant loses all of his stacks instantly, but that the rate at which he loses stacks varies wildly, as itself demonstrated in the very video you linked. It does not matter how well the ability can be used to let Revenant survive level 1700 enemies, the problem of inconsistency remains.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

Actually, 11 stacks is pretty darn good. You don't need to recast Mesmer Skin for 11 stacks. I personally recast around 2-3.

This is utterly beside the point. Revenant goes from staying at 15 stacks for an extended period of time to losing 4 stacks in a fraction of a second. If you were to personally recast at only around 2-3, and were at 4 stacks then, you would be dead.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

Do you see him losing almost all his stacks at any point in that video? The handful of enemies should be stripping all 15 stacks off pretty fast right? I mean, 15 seems like a small number! And he/she's been doing this for what... 190 minutes? I disagree, this casts more doubt on your claim about inconsistency. You have a player playing a dance emote in a fire fight with numerous enemies after playing 190 minutes and we are not seeing the mythical situation of instant stripping of all stacks or even a player struggling with the stacks.

Yes, you have a player going from literally dancing away in an ultra-high-level mission to losing over a quarter of their defensive buffer in a virtual instant. That is inconsistent. It does not matter whether Revenant loses all or almost all of his stacks in one go, the problem being pointed out is that Revenant can lose a significant number of stacks at any point in time in a manner that cannot be adequately predicted. You yourself specified you kept his charge level under close surveillance early in this conversation, and it is no surprise why.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

I don't think the video disproves anything I've said. The video shows a Revenant player that isn't losing stacks at the alarming rates you and others claim. And it very clearly shows why Revenant can do this: It's achieved through a combination of low enemy accuracy, low enemy fire rate and CC effects like stuns and Thralls.

The video shows an experienced Revenant player still experiencing massive and unpredictable variance in his Mesmer Skin charges (losing a quarter of your stacks in one go is alarming even by your own standards, as it exceeds even your own refresh threshold), which not only proves my point, but confirms that it is not one that can be solved by getting gud or the like, because it applies just as well to Rev mains. It is only just now too that you've backtracked on your curiously vague argument that Revenant's Mesmer Skin charges had a hidden depletion timer, as previously you were perfectly happy to let others assume that this extended across all enemies, as is the case with Negation Swarm and status effects. Your central claim is that Mesmer Skin's charges don't deplete inconsistently; your video proves otherwise.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

What I don't see in this video is Revenant struggling with an inconsistent defensive ability at all. Do you honestly see this player struggling with inconsistent stacks? Be honest!

I do not see this player struggling, because Warframe is not a game where players typically struggle with any difficulty. That is not, however, what Mesmer Skin is being measured on, and you are once again conflating inconsistency and clunkiness with difficulty.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

I'm trying to argue (and demonstrate) that your interpretation of Mesmer Skin's consistency and the scenario of instant loss of stacks due to a handful of enemies is almost entirely fiction save for the 4 enemies I listed.

But it clearly isn't fiction; your video shows that Mesmer Skin depletes inconsistently, QED. The only thing you have done so far is continue to argue beside the point by making the claim that Revenant isn't a difficult frame to play, a claim I have never even attempted to challenge.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

Now Thralls are surprisingly more effective and consistent than you give it credit. You Enthrall an enemy, they instantly have a higher threat level and almost always attract all the attention. It works well in Defense, Mobile Defense and Defense-like bounties in PoE and Fortuna. And this one has a duration... that can't be all that inconsistent to you, no?

It can, actually, because Thralls still retain the base inaccuracy of enemy AI, meaning their ability to propagate Enthrall is literally hit-or-miss. Additionally, their higher threat level obviously doesn't consistently protect Revenant against all threat, as once again evidenced by the video. This is, by the way, just sticking to criticism of their consistency, without going into their piddly damage, awkward forced synergies, weak on-death effects, and so on.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

You saw in the video while the Revenant is dancing and Enthrall wears off... only at that moment does attention get redirected to Revenant.

He gets attacked even with Thralls around, as evidenced throughout the entire video, but most notably 1:56 as one of the clearest examples (see the projectiles being fired directly at Revenant, and him trying to reset aggro by running away from the crowd), to say nothing of all the splash attacks he was receiving from the heavy units. You are straight-up lying at this point.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

I think I've been very nice and considerate to you (at least I've been trying to).

This is not going to make you sound convincing when your word is being questioned.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

The motive for me is: I've been playing Revenant for almost a thousand hours. You're claiming something that is not consistent with my experience. I typically speak out in these topics when I think I've found a falsehood or misconception.

By yourself telling falsehoods, as evidenced by this thread.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

I've shown you a video of very effective (and I would say "consistent") use of Mesmer Skin and you've tried to turn it on me claiming that there is a problem with consistency despite the sparse shots that player ever receives and the sheer length of that Survival mission.

Because something can be inconsistent and still be powerful; that is how many people at this stage have described Mesmer Skin. The fact that you are still conflating the two even after great pains have been taken to explain to you the difference smacks of bad faith.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

Aside of the use of Miter, that is a very typical scenario for Revenant. We do not see him losing all his stacks or the player struggling to keep his stacks up. The handful of Grineer example does not happen in practice.

Except it did; Revenant lost four stacks in an instant in your video. It is very possible that another Revenant player happened to get hit by a handful of Grineer at the same time and immediately lost a stack to each of them.

12 hours ago, nslay said:

What I think is that you don't play Revenant very much because you went to Simulacrum to test something that you would have experienced in a typical Void or Corpus mission if you played him more. You would have seen, for example, an Oxium Osprey with its laser repeater bombarding you at a discordant rate compared to the loss of stacks. I think you have imagined a problem with Revenant that does not really exist. At the same time, I think you are playing both sides here: On one hand, you argue that Mesmer Skin has an inconsistency problem and can very quickly lose stacks and render Revenant vulnerable in typical settings like with a handful of Grineer. If it were actually true, it would make Mesmer Skin the opposite of an effective and strong skill... but yet you claim you also think it's a strong (and maybe overpowered) skill. How do you hold both of these positions?

Because, once again, power and consistency are two different things, and a thing can be powerful, yet still inconsistent or clunky. Many powerful frames in Warframe are also clunky, and as someone who personally mains Trinity, I could go on at length about how she has both power and clunkiness in excess. Accusing me of imagining a nonexistent problem when my argumentation has been entirely based on evidence, including your own, is disingenuous, and suggests that the likelier scenario here is simply that you are being overly defensive of your pet frame, an altogether too common occurrence on these forums.

nslay · October 17, 2019

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

The first proposes a complete redo, and the other threads that went in-depth on the criticism of Mesmer Skin criticized the inconsistency of the charges. Meanwhile, the second rework also criticizes Mesmer Skin and proposes to make it a much less repetitive, if not always-on ability. I don't see why we're pretending that Mesmer Skin is perfect here.

I modified my post to reflect this and stand corrected about the nature of those suggested reworks.

Yes, it's not perfect. It doesn't work very well against Profit Taker, Exploiter (phase 1), Eidolons or Tusk Bulkor.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, you have a player going from literally dancing away in an ultra-high-level mission to losing over a quarter of their defensive buffer in a virtual instant. That is inconsistent. It does not matter whether Revenant loses all or almost all of his stacks in one go, the problem being pointed out is that Revenant can lose a significant number of stacks at any point in time in a manner that cannot be adequately predicted. You yourself specified you kept his charge level under close surveillance early in this conversation, and it is no surprise why.

OK, he loses 4 stacks in an instant, but he keeps Mesmer Skin active 100% of the time. It doesn't really matter if the stack loss is 1 or 4 or variable or whatever as long as he has that Mesmer Skin up and has enough time to notice the charges and recast Mesmer Skin. Granted he's using Reave+Enthrall to keep his stacks up which is not typical in the usual short missions. But that is consistency from my point of view. His defense ability is always active and always protecting him in that video. And I would add that it's definitely within the realm of "occasionally glancing at the charge count" to be able to recast Mesmer Skin were he not using Reave+Enthrall. Even if you're not using Thralls, it is very unlikely (in this case) for 15 shots to hit Revenant in a small window of time and strip his Mesmer Skin entirely with no chance for the player to notice in all the chaos. You will almost always have enough time to recognize that you need to recast Mesmer Skin and enough time to recast it. This is a point of contention for you right? We had a back and forth about glancing and keeping a sharp eye right? This contrasts with the 4 enemies I mentioned. For example, in just seconds, 15 stacks can be stripped by a Tusk Bolkor. This is definitely a serious problem for Revenant and it really isn't reasonable (as you said) for players (even with experience) to have to recast Mesmer Skin with such high maintenance in that situation. However, in no where else in the game against any faction do you experience such a massive loss of stacks like that in such a short period of time. It really is almost always as I said, an occasional glance at the charge count will suffice.

Now why do I personally keep a sharp eye? I've taken Revenant to fights like Profit Taker and Exploiter and have developed a habit for that. But you know, when I first started playing him, I could pull this off with 7 stacks in any typical mission for any faction with very little (then) experience with keeping track of stacks.

In a vaccuum with a Revenant standing entirely still with no application of his skills (aside of his Mesmer Skin), sure, a handful of Grineer can strip all of his stacks very quickly. But it really doesn't happen that way because that's not a realistic situation. This doesn't actually happen.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It can, actually, because Thralls still retain the base inaccuracy of enemy AI, meaning their ability to propagate Enthrall is literally hit-or-miss. Additionally, their higher threat level obviously doesn't consistently protect Revenant against all threat, as once again evidenced by the video. This is, by the way, just sticking to criticism of their consistency, without going into their piddly damage, awkward forced synergies, weak on-death effects, and so on.

OK, if you're talking about consistency of the Thrall spread, sure. I agree with you there. But on the other hand, that threat level stuff works so well it almost seems broken. It doesn't work great in Interception and a stray enemy far away from thralls can destroy Excavators, but it is like night and day when you make even just 1 Thrall around a defense target.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

He gets attacked even with Thralls around, as evidenced throughout the entire video, but most notably 1:56 as one of the clearest examples (see the projectiles being fired directly at Revenant, and him trying to reset aggro by running away from the crowd), to say nothing of all the splash attacks he was receiving from the heavy units. You are straight-up lying at this point.

OK, fine... I'll take: Almost always not being attacked by most enemies throughout the video. I think you're straight-up ignoring the obvious effectiveness of this strategy (gosh, splash damage?) and its contribution to Revenant's defense.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Because, once again, power and consistency are two different things, and a thing can be powerful, yet still inconsistent or clunky. Many powerful frames in Warframe are also clunky, and as someone who personally mains Trinity, I could go on at length about how she has both power and clunkiness in excess. Accusing me of imagining a nonexistent problem when my argumentation has been entirely based on evidence, including your own, is disingenuous, and suggests that the likelier scenario here is simply that you are being overly defensive of your pet frame, an altogether too common occurrence on these forums.

If Mesmer Skin was really so inconsistent as to be completely unreliable or unworkable to play the game, it would not be practically powerful despite its impressive ability to absorb an infinite amount of damage per charge.

To elucidate my perspective, if Revenant's Mesmer Skin was such that it only gives Revenant 1 charge (instead of a base of 5 or 6 and scales with ability strength), this 1 charge can still absorb an impressive infinite amount of damage. But it would be impractically inconsistent to use therefore practically not powerful. This is not conflating consistency with power, the two are related. Is this not a reasonable conclusion? I am at odds with your position of a strong and overpowered Mesmer Skin but also somehow inconsistent... if you think inconsistent reflects the scenario in the video, it really isn't so bad. Certainly reasonable in my opinion (you said it's not reasonable amidst all the chaos).

Edited October 17, 2019 by nslay
Remove empty quote block at end

(XBOX)Knight Raime · October 17, 2019

I actually kind of like Revenant. At least the value he brings for me. (even if it's not the intended way DE was thinking of for the frame.) I wouldn't mind him being polished up at all. So long as he maintains what I like about him.

EinheriarJudith · October 17, 2019

4 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I actually kind of like Revenant. At least the value he brings for me. (even if it's not the intended way DE was thinking of for the frame.) I wouldn't mind him being polished up at all. So long as he maintains what I like about him.

me too. one of the things i definitely would like to see go is the slow casting. no one like when DE makes natural talent a mandatory slot.

Duality52 · October 18, 2019

On 2019-10-15 at 4:29 AM, DrivaMain said:

You could just enthrall a Nox

A correction, but the Nox's innate damage cap will affect Reave, so you can't kill Noxes in around 2-3 passes of an Enthralled Reave. Best bet is to stun him with a Mesmer Skin charge or Enthrall him for your really beefy pet.

But no doubt that while his kit does have some issues, Revenant can scale infinitely since all of his abilities but Danse Macabre scales infinitely

Teridax68 · October 18, 2019

On 2019-10-17 at 2:18 PM, nslay said:

OK, he loses 4 stacks in an instant, but he keeps Mesmer Skin active 100% of the time. It doesn't really matter if the stack loss is 1 or 4 or variable or whatever as long as he has that Mesmer Skin up and has enough time to notice the charges and recast Mesmer Skin. Granted he's using Reave+Enthrall to keep his stacks up which is not typical in the usual short missions. But that is consistency from my point of view. His defense ability is always active and always protecting him in that video. And I would add that it's definitely within the realm of "occasionally glancing at the charge count" to be able to recast Mesmer Skin were he not using Reave+Enthrall. Even if you're not using Thralls, it is very unlikely (in this case) for 15 shots to hit Revenant in a small window of time and strip his Mesmer Skin entirely with no chance for the player to notice in all the chaos. You will almost always have enough time to recognize that you need to recast Mesmer Skin and enough time to recast it. This is a point of contention for you right? We had a back and forth about glancing and keeping a sharp eye right? This contrasts with the 4 enemies I mentioned. For example, in just seconds, 15 stacks can be stripped by a Tusk Bolkor. This is definitely a serious problem for Revenant and it really isn't reasonable (as you said) for players (even with experience) to have to recast Mesmer Skin with such high maintenance in that situation. However, in no where else in the game against any faction do you experience such a massive loss of stacks like that in such a short period of time. It really is almost always as I said, an occasional glance at the charge count will suffice.

Yes, Mesmer Skin is always on, because the player there is spam-refreshing Mesmer Skin, Enthrall and Reave. In other words, they are playing specifically in a manner that compensates for the ability's inconsistency, by not giving it a chance to deplete too unpredictably. The workaround to achieve that, however, is visibly spammy and entirely reliant on broken Energy gating. This is not the "occasional glance" you tried to reframe this as mid-argument, this is a much more involved effort, particularly when compared to abilities like Warding Halo or any duration-based steroid.

On 2019-10-17 at 2:18 PM, nslay said:

Now why do I personally keep a sharp eye? I've taken Revenant to fights like Profit Taker and Exploiter and have developed a habit for that. But you know, when I first started playing him, I could pull this off with 7 stacks in any typical mission for any faction with very little (then) experience with keeping track of stacks.

Putting aside the burden you are making yourself when taking Revenant to PT, if you've only been taking Revenant to those niche missions, how exactly did you build up the habit of constantly keeping a sharp eye on his stacks? Clearly, you weren't limiting your technique to just those two scenarios when you brought it up.

On 2019-10-17 at 2:18 PM, nslay said:

In a vaccuum with a Revenant standing entirely still with no application of his skills (aside of his Mesmer Skin), sure, a handful of Grineer can strip all of his stacks very quickly. But it really doesn't happen that way because that's not a realistic situation. This doesn't actually happen.

But a comparable situation did happen in the video you linked. By your own admission of your own refresh rate, had it been you, you could've died there.

On 2019-10-17 at 2:18 PM, nslay said:

OK, if you're talking about consistency of the Thrall spread, sure. I agree with you there. But on the other hand, that threat level stuff works so well it almost seems broken. It doesn't work great in Interception and a stray enemy far away from thralls can destroy Excavators, but it is like night and day when you make even just 1 Thrall around a defense target.

OK, fine... I'll take: Almost always not being attacked by most enemies throughout the video. I think you're straight-up ignoring the obvious effectiveness of this strategy (gosh, splash damage?) and its contribution to Revenant's defense.

See how your second paragraph contradicts your first. There is a clear inconsistency at hand here as well. And you're right: I couldn't care less about the effectiveness of this strategy, because I'm not faulting Revenant on his effectiveness, at least not in this conversation; I am faulting on the inconsistency of his kit.

On 2019-10-17 at 2:18 PM, nslay said:

If Mesmer Skin was really so inconsistent as to be completely unreliable or unworkable to play the game, it would not be practically powerful despite its impressive ability to absorb an infinite amount of damage per charge.

As explained above multiple times already, this is a non-sequitur, and a straw man to boot (nobody is arguing that Mesmer Skin is completely unreliable, let alone unworkable).

On 2019-10-17 at 2:18 PM, nslay said:

To elucidate my perspective, if Revenant's Mesmer Skin was such that it only gives Revenant 1 charge (instead of a base of 5 or 6 and scales with ability strength), this 1 charge can still absorb an impressive infinite amount of damage. But it would be impractically inconsistent to use therefore practically not powerful. This is not conflating consistency with power, the two are related. Is this not a reasonable conclusion? I am at odds with your position of a strong and overpowered Mesmer Skin but also somehow inconsistent... if you think inconsistent reflects the scenario in the video, it really isn't so bad. Certainly reasonable in my opinion (you said it's not reasonable amidst all the chaos).

Except you yourself gave the answer: it is both incredibly powerful and incredibly inconsistent, because it could single-handedly save Revenant's life from damage that would kill almost anyone else, but could also get wasted from some random mob. In the same way, a 90% chance to dodge damage is incredibly powerful, in fact just as statistically powerful as 90% damage reduction, yet is significantly less consistent, because that dodge chance could stop infinite damage, but also get the frame killed instantly by that one shot that goes through. Ultimately, you are arguing from a pure feigned lack of understanding here, and personal opinion on whether or not the inconsistency in the video you linked was "that bad", neither of which are of much use in this exchange.

Zebiko · October 18, 2019

My revenant looks amazing, but I hate his abilities, so I never use him. Hope there will be a rework, but have no clue what would be good.

nslay · October 19, 2019

53 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, Mesmer Skin is always on, because the player there is spam-refreshing Mesmer Skin, Enthrall and Reave. In other words, they are playing specifically in a manner that compensates for the ability's inconsistency, by not giving it a chance to deplete too unpredictably. The workaround to achieve that, however, is visibly spammy and entirely reliant on broken Energy gating. This is not the "occasional glance" you tried to reframe this as mid-argument, this is a much more involved effort, particularly when compared to abilities like Warding Halo or any duration-based steroid.

The player is playing Revenant using all those nice synergies you get when enemies stop being easy to kill. This video is a very nice example of how to play Revenant effectively. And that Mesmer Skin uptime of 100% shows that Mesmer Skin is really not all that inconsistent if you just... you know, move around and/or make Thralls.

57 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Putting aside the burden you are making yourself when taking Revenant to PT, if you've only been taking Revenant to those niche missions, how exactly did you build up the habit of constantly keeping a sharp eye on his stacks? Clearly, you weren't limiting your technique to just those two scenarios when you brought it up.

Well, by farming PT and Exploiter of course! Practice? I don't recommend it!

If you do try it...

PT: Enthrall the background enemies in PT to try to distract PT's cannon. Not great, but sometimes helps!

Exploiter: Only really a problem in Phase 1. You can try to enthrall some Mite Raknoids to distract Exploiter, but you're probably still going to tank that cannon when you throw thermia. Then you have to recast Mesmer Skin.

Every sequence of fire from those cannons results in about 6-7 stacks gone. It's painful. This kind of instant massive loss of stacks just doesn't happen anywhere else in the game (I guess unless you're dancing?). Those cannons are high fire rate, 100% accurate and aren't stunned by Mesmer Skin. By comparison, if you, for example, take fire from a Corrupted Heavy Gunner's Gorgon, the first bullet will stun the Corrupted Heavy Gunner and the automatic aspect is completely irrelevant.

59 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But a comparable situation did happen in the video you linked. By your own admission of your own refresh rate, had it been you, you could've died there.

No, a comparable situation really didn't happen. There is no instant loss of 15 Mesmer Skin charges that the player could not notice or react to. If there was, we would have seen a downtime of Mesmer Skin that the player could not have noticed or reacted to. Instead we saw the player just playing carefree (dancing?) with 100% uptime on Mesmer Skin.

The kind of situation I think I understand you imagine is exclusive to those 4 enemies I mentioned. I am not going to defend Mesmer Skin as a great defense skill when facing, for example, PT or Exploiter. You are right for these particular 4 enemies. It's not reasonable. But this is not even close by any stretch of the imagination for any other enemy, faction, boss, etc... in the game.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

See how your second paragraph contradicts your first. There is a clear inconsistency at hand here as well. And you're right: I couldn't care less about the effectiveness of this strategy, because I'm not faulting Revenant on his effectiveness, at least not in this conversation; I am faulting on the inconsistency of his kit.

Yes, go ahead., you don't have to care about those bothersome realistic situations like Revenant in evasive motion and using skills like Enthrall. Don't come here and tell us that Mesmer Skin is inconsistent because in a vacuum where Revenant is motionless and not doing anything that a handful of Grineer can strip his defenses instantly. The video shows a consistent 100% uptime of Mesmer Skin and plenty of time to notice and react time to boot. That is all a consequence of movement and Thralls.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

As explained above multiple times already, this is a non-sequitur, and a straw man to boot (nobody is arguing that Mesmer Skin is completely unreliable, let alone unworkable).

Give me a break.

You said you thought the skill should have something predictable like a duration or something like that. You claimed that Mesmer Skin and the charge system is not reasonable for average players to keep track of because Warframe is too chaotic.

On 2019-10-15 at 10:11 PM, Teridax68 said:

Looking around to see how many enemies are being stunned (and so specifically by Mesmer Skin) is itself not particularly reasonable for the average player to keep track of, as Warframe is a much more chaotic game overall.

I think this sums up what you're really trying to pull here and why we're really arguing. But that video shows that you are completely wrong. But you are absolutely right for those 4 enemies in the game. And even if he were not using Enthrall+Reave, this player would have plenty of time to notice and recast Mesmer Skin just fine.

Can Revenant lose a lot of stacks instantly? Sure... Does it really matter to the extent a player wouldn't notice or couldn't recast or exploit synergies amidst the use of the rest of his kit? No, not really.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Except you yourself gave the answer: it is both incredibly powerful and incredibly inconsistent, because it could single-handedly save Revenant's life from damage that would kill almost anyone else, but could also get wasted from some random mob. In the same way, a 90% chance to dodge damage is incredibly powerful, in fact just as statistically powerful as 90% damage reduction, yet is significantly less consistent, because that dodge chance could stop infinite damage, but also get the frame killed instantly by that one shot that goes through. Ultimately, you are arguing from a pure feigned lack of understanding here, and personal opinion on whether or not the inconsistency in the video you linked was "that bad", neither of which are of much use in this exchange.

Outrageous. Reave, for example, can give an ally 1 Mesmer Skin charge. Not even Gears would call this powerful (I don't mean to pull him into this). I would personally never even try to argue that this 1 stack is practical to use anywhere... it is admittedly a pretty weak buff for an ally (not powerful!) let alone Revenant under such a hypothetical version of Mesmer Skin.

You're arguing over a loss of stacks that is never once the full 15 stacks of Mesmer Skin and calling this inconsistent even if a player has no trouble keeping it up 100% of the time and never losing it. If this is what is inconsistent to you, it's not a very a useful observation. Certainly not to the extent that Mesmer Skin is broken or that a player couldn't reasonably notice and react to the loss by recasting or exploiting abilities. But I'm pretty sure this is not really what you're arguing because that's so inconsequential. You clearly think Revenant is poorly designed (first post) and you think that Mesmer Skin is unreasonable because Warframe gameplay is too chaotic for average players to use it.

Teridax68 · October 19, 2019

11 hours ago, nslay said:

The player is playing Revenant using all those nice synergies you get when enemies stop being easy to kill. This video is a very nice example of how to play Revenant effectively. And that Mesmer Skin uptime of 100% shows that Mesmer Skin is really not all that inconsistent if you just... you know, move around and/or make Thralls.

Or do what that player did, and spam abilities like a madman even when Mesmer Skin is nowhere close to depleting, because that's the only way you make sure your stacks don't vanish unexpectedly and get you popped. You're not exactly helping your case here.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

Well, by farming PT and Exploiter of course! Practice? I don't recommend it!

If you do try it...

PT: Enthrall the background enemies in PT to try to distract PT's cannon. Not great, but sometimes helps!

Exploiter: Only really a problem in Phase 1. You can try to enthrall some Mite Raknoids to distract Exploiter, but you're probably still going to tank that cannon when you throw thermia. Then you have to recast Mesmer Skin.

Every sequence of fire from those cannons results in about 6-7 stacks gone. It's painful. This kind of instant massive loss of stacks just doesn't happen anywhere else in the game (I guess unless you're dancing?). Those cannons are high fire rate, 100% accurate and aren't stunned by Mesmer Skin. By comparison, if you, for example, take fire from a Corrupted Heavy Gunner's Gorgon, the first bullet will stun the Corrupted Heavy Gunner and the automatic aspect is completely irrelevant.

Well, if I ever decide I want to be a deliberate burden to my team, I might try it, but in the meantime I think I'll just keep judging Revenant on his general performance, which even when not featuring that form of inconsistency, still has others, as stunning a single enemy does not prevent others from depleting stacks immediately.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

No, a comparable situation really didn't happen. There is no instant loss of 15 Mesmer Skin charges that the player could not notice or react to. If there was, we would have seen a downtime of Mesmer Skin that the player could not have noticed or reacted to. Instead we saw the player just playing carefree (dancing?) with 100% uptime on Mesmer Skin.

But we did see 4 charges go down instantly, so it is in fact a comparable situation, as any number of charges could have been lost within that span of time had there been more enemies around. We do see the player dancing around while Enthrall is up (which is, by the way, not a good thing either), but we also see Enthrall acting inconsistently in addition to Mesmer Skin depleting at a rate the player themselves clearly did not predict, hence why they immediately started spam-casting Reave on a thrall immediately after.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

The kind of situation I think I understand you imagine is exclusive to those 4 enemies I mentioned. I am not going to defend Mesmer Skin as a great defense skill when facing, for example, PT or Exploiter. You are right for these particular 4 enemies. It's not reasonable. But this is not even close by any stretch of the imagination for any other enemy, faction, boss, etc... in the game.

Again, you are continuing to confuse consistency with overall power. Once again, as you are well aware by now I am not saying Mesmer Skin is an ineffective ability, I am saying it is an inconsistent one. Your refusal to accept this difference, and your insistence upon trotting out the exact same argument that has been refuted many times before, comes across as desperate, as clearly you don't seem able to come up with any other argument.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

Yes, go ahead., you don't have to care about those bothersome realistic situations like Revenant in evasive motion and using skills like Enthrall. Don't come here and tell us that Mesmer Skin is inconsistent because in a vacuum where Revenant is motionless and not doing anything that a handful of Grineer can strip his defenses instantly. The video shows a consistent 100% uptime of Mesmer Skin and plenty of time to notice and react time to boot. That is all a consequence of movement and Thralls.

But this is a lie, as I am referring to the video you yourself linked, which showed Revenant losing a massive amount of charges instantly while in full motion. It is clear evidence that that kind of inconsistency does in fact have a basis in real gameplay, and can affect even veterans.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

Give me a break.

You said you thought the skill should have something predictable like a duration or something like that. You claimed that Mesmer Skin and the charge system is not reasonable for average players to keep track of because Warframe is too chaotic.

Yes, which is in no way even close to saying that the ability is unusable or weak, which is how you're deliberately misrepresenting my stance. Asking for a more consistent depletion system is not tantamount to saying the current ability is unplayable, it's just saying that the current ability's design isn't as good as it could be.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

I think this sums up what you're really trying to pull here and why we're really arguing. But that video shows that you are completely wrong. But you are absolutely right for those 4 enemies in the game. And even if he were not using Enthrall+Reave, this player would have plenty of time to notice and recast Mesmer Skin just fine.

Completely wrong... how? Your video proves me right: that Revenant player absolutely wasn't checking for the number of stunned enemies around, they were constantly keeping an eye on their stacks and resorting to disproportionate amounts of spam just to keep them at the maximum level, without ever letting them drop too low. It is your own description of how Revenant plays here that has no basis in reality.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

Can Revenant lose a lot of stacks instantly? Sure... Does it really matter to the extent a player wouldn't notice or couldn't recast or exploit synergies amidst the use of the rest of his kit? No, not really.

Yes, it does, because it entails constant surveillance of his stacks, because there is no consistent way of predicting how many charges Revenant will lose at any given time. That in itself is evidence the ability works inconsistently.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

Outrageous. Reave, for example, can give an ally 1 Mesmer Skin charge. Not even Gears would call this powerful (I don't mean to pull him into this). I would personally never even try to argue that this 1 stack is practical to use anywhere... it is admittedly a pretty weak buff for an ally (not powerful!) let alone Revenant under such a hypothetical version of Mesmer Skin.

You don't get to speak for Gears, and you have completely failed to understand my point at hand, which is that while a single charge on its own isn't by any means the best defensive steroid overall, it is capable of both great power and great inconsistency, due to the way it operates. It is clearly enough to protect Revenant against enemies pretty much no-one else would hold against, as each charge blocks infinite amounts of damage, yet its mode of depletion means there's no consistent way of anticipating which instance of damage it will block.

11 hours ago, nslay said:

You're arguing over a loss of stacks that is never once the full 15 stacks of Mesmer Skin and calling this inconsistent even if a player has no trouble keeping it up 100% of the time and never losing it. If this is what is inconsistent to you, it's not a very a useful observation. Certainly not to the extent that Mesmer Skin is broken or that a player couldn't reasonably notice and react to the loss by recasting or exploiting abilities. But I'm pretty sure this is not really what you're arguing because that's so inconsequential. You clearly think Revenant is poorly designed (first post) and you think that Mesmer Skin is unreasonable because Warframe gameplay is too chaotic for average players to use it.

You are right, I do think Revenant is poorly designed for a whole host of reasons, and you don't get to dismiss my opinion simply because you don't feel the problem is serious enough in your eyes, which is the crux of your entire argument here. The loss of stacks wasn't 15 at once, but as has been pointed out already, by your own implicit admission it would have been enough to get you, a seasoned Revenant player, killed. That instance among others also happened at a point where Revenant was mid-parkour against only a small clump of enemies, which suggests there are many more situations out there where even attentive Revenant players have gotten killed because they lost an even larger number of stacks before they could react adequately. The only reason the player in the video avoided this is because they effectively stopped playing Warframe, and instead focused almost exclusively on making sure they were at full stacks at all times, and at all costs, which I don't think is a reasonable thing to ask of every Revenant player. As I've shown you, I am by no means the only player with this opinion, and the writing is on the wall that Revenant's design is still considered poor by and large. He visibly needs kit changes, greater than the ones I'm suggesting here for just Mesmer Skin, and your personal overprotectiveness of his every quirk is in no way a meaningful obstacle to this.

nslay · October 19, 2019

40 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Or do what that player did, and spam abilities like a madman even when Mesmer Skin is nowhere close to depleting, because that's the only way you make sure your stacks don't vanish unexpectedly and get you popped. You're not exactly helping your case here.

He's actually primarily using Reave to kill those high level enemies, not keep his Mesmer Skin up. Heck, he even uses it when he has full stacks! But hey, it has that synergy with stacks, so why not! It actually works very nicely when you get a chance to use it... which is almost never since everything is ordinarily so easy to kill, so no reason to use it.

41 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Well, if I ever decide I want to be a deliberate burden to my team, I might try it, but in the meantime I think I'll just keep judging Revenant on his general performance, which even when not featuring that form of inconsistency, still has others, as stunning a single enemy does not prevent others from depleting stacks immediately.

How about solo? Because that's what I was talking about! You wouldn't need to try to use Thralls with team mates to crudely draw some of the fire away from you. PT/Exploiter do not fall for Thralls very much... but they do like to attack players! The more players, the less Revenant gets hit, the more effective Mesmer Skin... the easier it is to keep Mesmer Skin up!

44 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

But we did see 4 charges go down instantly, so it is in fact a comparable situation, as any number of charges could have been lost within that span of time had there been more enemies around. We do see the player dancing around while Enthrall is up (which is, by the way, not a good thing either),

Look, I totally get it. Skeptics look at his ability text and they think of this situation with Corpus and Grineer stripping his stacks instantly and Revenant being this almost helpless frame with a very weak defense ability. It doesn't really happen that way and for the variety of reasons I've written before. The loss of 4 stacks is not comparable to this.

OK... how often are there 15+ enemies around in a solo mission, that in any given moment, shoot in an almost synchronized fashion and score direct hits on a moving Tenno? Nevermind the Thralls obviously distracting enemies. Here's a crude and unrealistic thought experiment with numbers... let's be generous and imagine enemies have a 90% accuracy (hit 9 out of 10 times) and 15 are positioned around the Tenno and all are ready to fire together in synchrony (within some degree of tolerance). What is the probability all 15 hit the Tenno? 21% That's still pretty big... but only about 1 out of 5 times, Revenant will receive all 15 hits simultaneously losing his defense entirely and while stunning, on average, 13-14 enemies (probably most of the enemies present in a solo mission). How many enemies spawn at any given moment in a solo mission? I know it's less than a team mission. What is the probability all of them are synchronized in fire (within the same degree of tolerance)? Now throw in motion and CC effects like stuns and Thralls... now, the probability of a massive loss of stacks should plummet further! Factor in the real accuracy of enemies (which I'm sure is not 90%) and that should give a very good idea of why Mesmer Skin works well in most settings and partly why it's easy to maintain (or why people often call it "god mode").

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

but we also see Enthrall acting inconsistently in addition to Mesmer Skin depleting at a rate the player themselves clearly did not predict, hence why they immediately started spam-casting Reave on a thrall immediately after.

I also suspect you might misunderstand why he's actually using Reave and seemingly reading this into a narrative about a player desperately trying to keep stacks up. Let alone, you ignore the obvious effectiveness of the Thralls. The video presents itself well with regard to Thralls.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on Reave:

If you didn't know, Reave drains a flat 40% of the Thrall's maximum health (8% if not a Thrall). This scales with ability strength, not that it's important. So this player is simultaneously making Thralls for his own defenses (1 less enemy shooting at him, 1 more enemy drawing fire away from Revenant) and also for using Reave to dispatch them. He also benefits from Reave restoring a stack.

This is not really a madman use of Reave to keep stacks up. It's a madman use of Reave to kill enemies... but hey, it gives stacks back!

57 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Again, you are continuing to confuse consistency with overall power. Once again, as you are well aware by now I am not saying Mesmer Skin is an ineffective ability, I am saying it is an inconsistent one. Your refusal to accept this difference, and your insistence upon trotting out the exact same argument that has been refuted many times before, comes across as desperate, as clearly you don't seem able to come up with any other argument.

Well, perhaps we understand "powerful" differently.

I think you are ignoring the relationship between consistency and practical power of a defense ability. An impractically inconsistent Mesmer Skin is not powerful. PT/Exploiter, Tusk Bolkor, Eidolons render Mesmer Skin so difficult to keep up that it is not doing very much for the player. It is not a powerful defense ability for these enemies... it doesn't work well.

I won't deny that each stack can absorb a single instance of infinite damage... is this the aspect you seem to consider as powerful? I don't agree with that interpretation because it ignores many other factors such as its implementation and enemy you are facing. I gave an example of a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin... it would not be consistent, useful, effective, workable, powerful, etc... anywhere in the game. I don't think anyone will consider such a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin powerful because of that 1 instant of infinite damage absorption.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

You don't get to speak for Gears,

I'm happy to say that Gears did actually point this silly buff out himself within the past year (maybe even months!) of discussions about Revenant! Spoiler: He actually doesn't think it's powerful. Though he also doesn't think Mesmer Skin is good either even with its more numerous charges!

The point of the 1 charge example was to demonstrate that consistency and power are related. I doubt anybody would think a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin is powerful even if a stack could absorb an impressive infinite amount of damage. The reason for this is that 1 stack would render Mesmer Skin impractically inconsistent to keep up thereby effectively doing nothing for the player.

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It is clearly enough to protect Revenant against enemies pretty much no-one else would hold against, as each charge blocks infinite amounts of damage, yet its mode of depletion means there's no consistent way of anticipating which instance of damage it will block.

If this is really what you mean by "inconsistent", then we're really arguing about absolutely nothing. Of course you can't choose which damage depletes which stack! No argument here.

But given that we're critiquing all the way down to a loss of 4 stacks in a video, to a scenario that happens in a vacuum, to an earlier notion of what is reasonable or predictable for players, to a player supposedly Reaving out of desperation... I am sure this more to this. No? The way I understood our discussion from the very start to now was that because Mesmer Skin can lose lots of stacks in a moment, it wasn't reasonable for players to keep it up. It would be too unpredictable to keep up... I thought consistency here meant Mesmer Skin uptime. It's not unusual for players to take 0% damage in most settings (even arbitrations!) because Mesmer Skin can be kept up 100% of the time without issue.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Yes, which is in no way even close to saying that the ability is unusable or weak, which is how you're deliberately misrepresenting my stance. Asking for a more consistent depletion system is not tantamount to saying the current ability is unplayable, it's just saying that the current ability's design isn't as good as it could be.

OK, fair enough. I accept that. Though, I am skeptical of your stance and your intentions.

I don't agree with you that losing a lot of stacks in a moment is really a problem in most settings and I don't personally experience any downtime with Mesmer Skin, let alone what the video shows. I think any improvements to Mesmer Skin's depletion will only help him deal with those 4 troublesome enemies though!

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Completely wrong... how? Your video proves me right: that Revenant player absolutely wasn't checking for the number of stunned enemies around, they were constantly keeping an eye on their stacks and resorting to disproportionate amounts of spam just to keep them at the maximum level, without ever letting them drop too low. It is your own description of how Revenant plays here that has no basis in reality.

Completely wrong because this player has a consistent 100% Mesmer Skin uptime. And I guarantee you he wasn't looking at his stacks most of the time. Admittedly, at that point in a long survival using Reave like that to kill enemies, you don't really need to.

Let's ask him! Hey @-VS-WeebusRussus, how closely did you need to watch your Mesmer Skin stacks in your Revenant youtube video?

For reference, I met him from this post:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1111428-how-to-change-revenant-and-possibly-wisp/?do=findComment&comment=10893115

29 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You are right, I do think Revenant is poorly designed for a whole host of reasons, and you don't get to dismiss my opinion simply because you don't feel the problem is serious enough in your eyes, which is the crux of your entire argument here.

Well, I have real and extensive experience with him and you don't seem to play him. So in that sense, I do get to dismiss your opinion. I also showed you a real example of effective Revenant gameplay with 100% Mesmer Skin uptime using his kit... what serious problem? I didn't see any (most people are even impressed by the video!). Even better... I explicitly identify the criteria and the 4 enemies that exhibit those criteria that actually make your issue a very serious problem. Where's your data? You don't have anything but opinions, interpretations and thought experiments in a vacuum. Heck, you won't even acknowledge the obvious effectiveness of Thralls in that video, instead pointing out the vast minority of counterexamples and pretending Reave is being used out of desperation to keep the stacks up.

I mean, sure, it could be very nice if they rework the charge system to allow Revenant to keep his defense up in the face of enemies like PT or Exploiter. I don't agree that it would need a rework for any kind of consistency problem when it's already very easy to keep the stacks up.

4 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

The loss of stacks wasn't 15 at once, but as has been pointed out already, by your own implicit admission it would have been enough to get you, a seasoned Revenant player, killed.

I see what you're trying to do here. You're trying to twist what I said... but guess what, and you don't have to believe me: I almost never die. I almost always take 0% damage in an entire mission, star chart, arbitration, boss fights... whatever. It's really not hard to keep Mesmer Skin up. I did it with 7 stacks originally, now I do it with 14.

nslay · October 19, 2019

Here @Teridax68 ... in the name of data, I recorded the results of my Radiation Sortie Exterminate mission limiting myself to only using Mesmer Skin.

I casted Mesmer Skin 10 times in 4 minutes and 55 seconds. If this is unreasonable or inconsistent to you and you think it warrants an improvement then so be it... I respect that since other frames may only have to cast their defense skill only once in such a short mission. It certainly wasn't hard to keep up and have 0% damage taken.

0% damage taken

Spoiler

Number of abilities used

Spoiler

EDIT: Here's my Sortie Mobile Defense

I limited myself only to Mesmer Skin and Enthrall. I had to keep count of Mesmer Skin since the score screen does not discriminate. I casted Mesmer Skin 4 times in 5 minutes and 14 seconds.

0% damage taken

Spoiler

Number of abilities used (you can see I used Enthrall a lot)

Spoiler

EDIT: Here's my Sortie Survival

I limited myself to Mesmer Skin, Enthrall and Danse Macabre. I casted Mesmer Skin 6 times in 10 minutes and 38 seconds.

0% damage taken

Spoiler

Number of abilities used

Spoiler

Edited October 19, 2019 by nslay

Teridax68 · October 20, 2019

Let's start with this:

17 hours ago, nslay said:

Here @Teridax68 ... in the name of data, I recorded the results of my Radiation Sortie Exterminate mission limiting myself to only using Mesmer Skin.

I casted Mesmer Skin 10 times in 4 minutes and 55 seconds. If this is unreasonable to you and you think it warrants an improvement then so be it... I respect that since other frames may only have to cast their defense skill only once in such a short mission. It certainly wasn't hard to keep up and have 0% damage taken.

0% damage taken

Number of abilities used

This'd be nice... if it would be at all impressive, or were completely isolated from context. Here's my run:

https://imgur.com/1ZUDJrU

Two can play that game. I used only three casts of Iron Skin on Rhino, as you can see here:

https://imgur.com/yCIDi2l

I do not main Rhino. I did not play carefully, as I kept running into blast containers, so had I played efficiently I would have needed only a single cast (without even requiring the Ironclad Charge synergy). Despite this, I killed significantly more enemies in a comparable amount of time, using far fewer casts. Your statistics are not impressive. This is, by the way, while still pointing out that I am not even criticizing Mesmer Skin's strength, yet you seem to be pointing out that its uptime is not even that good.

Now, onto the main post:

17 hours ago, nslay said:

He's actually primarily using Reave to kill those high level enemies, not keep his Mesmer Skin up. Heck, he even uses it when he has full stacks! But hey, it has that synergy with stacks, so why not! It actually works very nicely when you get a chance to use it... which is almost never since everything is ordinarily so easy to kill, so no reason to use it.

This is a lie, as you can clearly see the player cast Enthrall and quickly Reave the enemy right afterwards to bring their stacks to full. The fact that this forced synergy only starts to become relevant in ultra-high-level content is itself not a good sign, and I really don't understand here why you would bring that to attention while simultaneously trying to defend Revenant.

Quote

How about solo? Because that's what I was talking about! You wouldn't need to try to use Thralls with team mates to crudely draw some of the fire away from you. PT/Exploiter do not fall for Thralls very much... but they do like to attack players! The more players, the less Revenant gets hit, the more effective Mesmer Skin... the easier it is to keep Mesmer Skin up!

In an environment where, by your own admission, Mesmer Skin is especially bad, sure. I'm not sure what we're discussing here.

Quote

Look, I totally get it. Skeptics look at his ability text and they think of this situation with Corpus and Grineer stripping his stacks instantly and Revenant being this almost helpless frame with a very weak defense ability. It doesn't really happen that way and for the variety of reasons I've written before. The loss of 4 stacks is not comparable to this.

Again, you are making stuff up here, because nobody here is calling Revenant an "almost helpless frame with a very weak defense ability". The general consensus is that Mesmer Skin is a strong overall defensive steroid... but also an inconsistent one. As shown by the example you yourself mentioned, which was not simply his ability text, but an actual in-game scenario that actually happened. Why you continue to attempt deny reality here is beyond me.

Quote

OK... how often are there 15+ enemies around in a solo mission, that in any given moment, shoot in an almost synchronized fashion and score direct hits on a moving Tenno? Nevermind the Thralls obviously distracting enemies. Here's a crude and unrealistic thought experiment with numbers... let's be generous and imagine enemies have a 90% accuracy (hit 9 out of 10 times) and 15 are positioned around the Tenno and all are ready to fire together in synchrony (within some degree of tolerance). What is the probability all 15 hit the Tenno? 21% That's still pretty big... but only about 1 out of 5 times, Revenant will receive all 15 hits simultaneously losing his defense entirely and while stunning, on average, 13-14 enemies (probably most of the enemies present in a solo mission). How many enemies spawn at any given moment in a solo mission? I know it's less than a team mission. What is the probability all of them are synchronized in fire (within the same degree of tolerance)? Now throw in motion and CC effects like stuns and Thralls... now, the probability of a massive loss of stacks should plummet further! Factor in the real accuracy of enemies (which I'm sure is not 90%) and that should give a very good idea of why Mesmer Skin works well in most settings and partly why it's easy to maintain (or why people often call it "god mode").

If you play an Endless mission, such as Survival, Defense, or Interception, this can and does in fact happen. Even in group missions, this happens as well. It is not a common scenario for a large group of enemies to all hit at the same time, or within a short interval, but it still happens. Even when not going to such an extent, it is far more common, as evidenced by the video itself, for players to lose a whole chunk of charges in one go. Meanwhile, I can go around as Rhino in a Sortie-level mission, cast Iron Skin, and roam around killing enemies, triggering environmental hazards, all without a care in the world, because I can at least somewhat anticipate the amount of damage I'm taking at any given time.

Quote

I also suspect you might misunderstand why he's actually using Reave and seemingly reading this into a narrative about a player desperately trying to keep stacks up. Let alone, you ignore the obvious effectiveness of the Thralls. The video presents itself well with regard to Thralls.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on Reave:

If you didn't know, Reave drains a flat 40% of the Thrall's maximum health (8% if not a Thrall). This scales with ability strength, not that it's important. So this player is simultaneously making Thralls for his own defenses (1 less enemy shooting at him, 1 more enemy drawing fire away from Revenant) and also for using Reave to dispatch them. He also benefits from Reave restoring a stack.

This is not really a madman use of Reave to keep stacks up. It's a madman use of Reave to kill enemies... but hey, it gives stacks back!

I am well aware that the Revenant player was also using Reave to kill Ancients, as happened several times in the video, but that does not prevent the fact that they also spam-cast Reave whenever their charges went even slightly down, and so for the obvious purpose of keeping charges at constant max amount. That Revenant player is clearly aware that they shouldn't let their stacks drop too low, for fear of losing all of the remaining ones in too short a span of time to react.

Quote

Well, perhaps we understand "powerful" differently.

I think you are ignoring the relationship between consistency and practical power of a defense ability. An impractically inconsistent Mesmer Skin is not powerful. PT/Exploiter, Tusk Bolkor, Eidolons render Mesmer Skin so difficult to keep up that it is not doing very much for the player. It is not a powerful defense ability for these enemies... it doesn't work well.

I won't deny that each stack can absorb a single instance of infinite damage... is this the aspect you seem to consider as powerful? I don't agree with that interpretation because it ignores many other factors such as its implementation and enemy you are facing. I gave an example of a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin... it would not be consistent, useful, effective, workable, powerful, etc... anywhere in the game. I don't think anyone will consider such a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin powerful because of that 1 instant of infinite damage absorption.

We are understanding power differently, because you are viewing the different components to power in isolation from each other, whereas I am looking at them holistically: you are correct that consistency is a form of power, and that the more consistent an ability, the more powerful it is. However, power is not only consistency, it also comes down to the strength of the mechanic when used successfully, its ease of use, and so on. In this respect, Mesmer Skin is a powerful ability overall, because clearly it's capable of protecting Revenant against damage, and scales better than any other defensive steroid due to its total damage nullification. That does not prevent it, however, from still being inconsistent, again because you cannot predict which charge will be spent against which instance of damage, something you yourself pointed out. Whereas you keep jumping from consistency to power whenever you want to defend Mesmer Skin, I am viewing both at the same time and understanding the nuance between raw strength, consistency, and overall power, which is why I have repeatedly pointed out that your argumentation here comes down more to sheer denial than any kind of coherent reasoning.

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I'm happy to say that Gears did actually point this silly buff out himself within the past year (maybe even months!) of discussions about Revenant! Spoiler: He actually doesn't think it's powerful. Though he also doesn't think Mesmer Skin is good either even with its more numerous charges!

In which case they'd be talking about the buff, not the isolated effect of possessing only a single Mesmer Skin charge. At this point it looks like you're just quote mining Gears... without even so much as providing the quote you are relying upon.

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The point of the 1 charge example was to demonstrate that consistency and power are related. I doubt anybody would think a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin is powerful even if a stack could absorb an impressive infinite amount of damage. The reason for this is that 1 stack would render Mesmer Skin impractically inconsistent to keep up thereby effectively doing nothing for the player.

I fail to see where I ever stated that consistency and power weren't related. My entire point is that while consistency is a component to power, that does not mean every powerful ability need be consistent. Meanwhile, you have been repeatedly trying to tell me that because Mesmer Skin is powerful overall, that must mean that it is necessarily consistent. That's not how it works.

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If this is really what you mean by "inconsistent", then we're really arguing about absolutely nothing. Of course you can't choose which damage depletes which stack! No argument here.

Then why are you arguing? You are admitting to the ability's inconsistency; QED.

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But given that we're critiquing all the way down to a loss of 4 stacks in a video, to a scenario that happens in a vacuum, to an earlier notion of what is reasonable or predictable for players, to a player supposedly Reaving out of desperation... I am sure this more to this. No? The way I understood our discussion from the very start to now was that because Mesmer Skin can lose lots of stacks in a moment, it wasn't reasonable for players to keep it up. It would be too unpredictable to keep up... I thought consistency here meant Mesmer Skin uptime. It's not unusual for players to take 0% damage in most settings (even arbitrations!) because Mesmer Skin can be kept up 100% of the time without issue.

Yes, it can be kept up 100% of the time... by spam-casting abilities even when the ability's near maximum charge. That is itself an indicator that the ability's charge system is not consistent enough for players to let their charges drop by any real amount in a serious mission. An Ironclad Charge Rhino does not need to refresh their combo every time their Iron Skin drops by 1k, or even 10k, because enemy damage overall is generally consistent enough that they can get a rhythm of when to recast next. Overall enemy attack rates, however, are not, which is why charge systems fail as a defensive mechanic in regular Warframe. This isn't just me saying this or inventing situations in a vacuum, this is again supported by the evidence you yourself gave, as well as corroborated by many other players.

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OK, fair enough. I accept that. Though, I am skeptical of your stance and your intentions.

Why? What exactly do you think my intentions are?

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I don't agree with you that losing a lot of stacks in a moment is really a problem in most settings and I don't personally experience any downtime with Mesmer Skin, let alone what the video shows. I think any improvements to Mesmer Skin's depletion will only help him deal with those 4 troublesome enemies though!

You may not agree with it, but many other people do. Expecting people to become dedicated Revenant mains and spam Enthrall+Reave the moment they lose even a single Mesmer Skin charge, while keeping "a keen eye" on their stacks at all times, is not a reasonable thing to ask of all players complaining about the latter ability's inconsistency.

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Completely wrong because this player has a consistent 100% Mesmer Skin uptime. And I guarantee you he wasn't looking at his stacks most of the time. Admittedly, at that point in a long survival using Reave like that to kill enemies, you don't really need to.

You can guarantee me... how? You are also lying here yet again, as the Revenant player was clearly seeking to refresh their stacks the moment they started dropping. Also, that 100% uptime doesn't prove me wrong, the method by which the charges fluctuated proves me right. You are making a whole lot of stuff up here.

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Let's ask him! Hey @-VS-WeebusRussus, how closely did you need to watch your Mesmer Skin stacks in your Revenant youtube video?

For reference, I met him from this post:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1111428-how-to-change-revenant-and-possibly-wisp/?do=findComment&comment=10893115

Oh hey, I saw that thread! Mainly because someone else liked my proposed changes to Revenant so much that they namedropped me just to mention them. Thank you for bringing to my attention the fact that this is not the only thread where you've been overly defensive of the entirety of Revenant's kit.

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Well, I have real and extensive experience with him and you don't seem to play him. So in that sense, I do get to dismiss your opinion.

No, you don't. As shown by the above stats, evidence, and so on, your "extensive experience" does nothing to prevent the fact that what I'm saying is in fact grounded in reality. Meanwhile, what your time spent playing Revenant has clearly contributed to, however, is a severe bias towards him that has caused you to insert yourself into every Revenant design thread just to defend his every feature, even though he has a much larger reputation for being one of the most poorly-designed frames in the game. You are in fact perhaps one of the last people whose opinion one should ever consult when discussing Revenant, because your bias is so strong that it gets in the way of sensible discussion.

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I also showed you a real example of effective Revenant gameplay with 100% Mesmer Skin uptime using his kit... what serious problem? I didn't see any (most people are even impressed by the video!).

I was impressed with the video too, as would be anyone witnessing a player playing an endless mission for that long. Yet again, however, that does not prevent the fact that your video itself showed the serious problem of Revenant losing disproportionate amounts of his defensive steroid in unpredictable amounts of time. Once again, you yourself have provided ammunition against your own shallow defense of the frame, with your only real argument here being you personally not considering the problem to be worthy of consideration.

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Even better... I explicitly identify the criteria and the 4 enemies that exhibit those criteria that actually make your issue a very serious problem. Where's your data? You don't have anything but opinions, interpretations and thought experiments in a vacuum. Heck, you won't even acknowledge the obvious effectiveness of Thralls in that video, instead pointing out the vast minority of counterexamples and pretending Reave is being used out of desperation to keep the stacks up.

I referenced the video multiple times, tested out Revenant myself when you lied about how his mechanics worked, provided several threads where other people also expressed similar sentiment towards Mesmer skin, and even did a test run of the same mission you did just to prove that your raving about the ability's virtues are themselves nothing but hollow grandstanding. Meanwhile, you have... what exactly? Not only are you lying by pretending that I have no supporting evidence for my claims, your accusation is itself hypocritical given that you are yourself relying purely on your own subjective appreciation of Revenant, as well as a heap of fabrications, to defend him. By the way, I did in fact acknowledge the effectiveness of Enthrall (while pointing out its own inconsistencies), and never pretended Reave was being used exclusively as a desperate attempt to keep stacks up, so you are lying here as well.

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I mean, sure, it could be very nice if they rework the charge system to allow Revenant to keep his defense up in the face of enemies like PT or Exploiter. I don't agree that it would need a rework for any kind of consistency problem when it's already very easy to keep the stacks up.

Then why are you arguing? We both seem to agree that a better mechanic for his defense exists. Why then insist that Revenant has no design problems when he clearly does?

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I see what you're trying to do here. You're trying to twist what I said... but guess what, and you don't have to believe me: I almost never die.

Ah yes, because clearly your word has been so reliable throughout this entire thread... /s

Also... how exactly am I twisting what you said here? I'm genuinely curious.

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I almost always take 0% damage in an entire mission, star chart, arbitration, boss fights... whatever. It's really not hard to keep Mesmer Skin up. I did it with 7 stacks originally, now I do it with 14.

That's nice... except how does this relate to the argument at hand? It feels like you're conflating criticism of Revenant the frame, with criticism of you, the Revenant player, which is not a healthy mentality to bring to this design discussion.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Teridax68

-VS-Storker · October 20, 2019

vor 17 Stunden schrieb nslay:

He's actually primarily using Reave to kill those high level enemies, not keep his Mesmer Skin up. Heck, he even uses it when he has full stacks! But hey, it has that synergy with stacks, so why not! It actually works very nicely when you get a chance to use it... which is almost never since everything is ordinarily so easy to kill, so no reason to use it.

How about solo? Because that's what I was talking about! You wouldn't need to try to use Thralls with team mates to crudely draw some of the fire away from you. PT/Exploiter do not fall for Thralls very much... but they do like to attack players! The more players, the less Revenant gets hit, the more effective Mesmer Skin... the easier it is to keep Mesmer Skin up!

Look, I totally get it. Skeptics look at his ability text and they think of this situation with Corpus and Grineer stripping his stacks instantly and Revenant being this almost helpless frame with a very weak defense ability. It doesn't really happen that way and for the variety of reasons I've written before. The loss of 4 stacks is not comparable to this.

OK... how often are there 15+ enemies around in a solo mission, that in any given moment, shoot in an almost synchronized fashion and score direct hits on a moving Tenno? Nevermind the Thralls obviously distracting enemies. Here's a crude and unrealistic thought experiment with numbers... let's be generous and imagine enemies have a 90% accuracy (hit 9 out of 10 times) and 15 are positioned around the Tenno and all are ready to fire together in synchrony (within some degree of tolerance). What is the probability all 15 hit the Tenno? 21% That's still pretty big... but only about 1 out of 5 times, Revenant will receive all 15 hits simultaneously losing his defense entirely and while stunning, on average, 13-14 enemies (probably most of the enemies present in a solo mission). How many enemies spawn at any given moment in a solo mission? I know it's less than a team mission. What is the probability all of them are synchronized in fire (within the same degree of tolerance)? Now throw in motion and CC effects like stuns and Thralls... now, the probability of a massive loss of stacks should plummet further! Factor in the real accuracy of enemies (which I'm sure is not 90%) and that should give a very good idea of why Mesmer Skin works well in most settings and partly why it's easy to maintain (or why people often call it "god mode").

I also suspect you might misunderstand why he's actually using Reave and seemingly reading this into a narrative about a player desperately trying to keep stacks up. Let alone, you ignore the obvious effectiveness of the Thralls. The video presents itself well with regard to Thralls.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on Reave:

If you didn't know, Reave drains a flat 40% of the Thrall's maximum health (8% if not a Thrall). This scales with ability strength, not that it's important. So this player is simultaneously making Thralls for his own defenses (1 less enemy shooting at him, 1 more enemy drawing fire away from Revenant) and also for using Reave to dispatch them. He also benefits from Reave restoring a stack.

This is not really a madman use of Reave to keep stacks up. It's a madman use of Reave to kill enemies... but hey, it gives stacks back!

Well, perhaps we understand "powerful" differently.

I think you are ignoring the relationship between consistency and practical power of a defense ability. An impractically inconsistent Mesmer Skin is not powerful. PT/Exploiter, Tusk Bolkor, Eidolons render Mesmer Skin so difficult to keep up that it is not doing very much for the player. It is not a powerful defense ability for these enemies... it doesn't work well.

I won't deny that each stack can absorb a single instance of infinite damage... is this the aspect you seem to consider as powerful? I don't agree with that interpretation because it ignores many other factors such as its implementation and enemy you are facing. I gave an example of a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin... it would not be consistent, useful, effective, workable, powerful, etc... anywhere in the game. I don't think anyone will consider such a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin powerful because of that 1 instant of infinite damage absorption.

I'm happy to say that Gears did actually point this silly buff out himself within the past year (maybe even months!) of discussions about Revenant! Spoiler: He actually doesn't think it's powerful. Though he also doesn't think Mesmer Skin is good either even with its more numerous charges!

The point of the 1 charge example was to demonstrate that consistency and power are related. I doubt anybody would think a hypothetical 1 stack Mesmer Skin is powerful even if a stack could absorb an impressive infinite amount of damage. The reason for this is that 1 stack would render Mesmer Skin impractically inconsistent to keep up thereby effectively doing nothing for the player.

If this is really what you mean by "inconsistent", then we're really arguing about absolutely nothing. Of course you can't choose which damage depletes which stack! No argument here.

But given that we're critiquing all the way down to a loss of 4 stacks in a video, to a scenario that happens in a vacuum, to an earlier notion of what is reasonable or predictable for players, to a player supposedly Reaving out of desperation... I am sure this more to this. No? The way I understood our discussion from the very start to now was that because Mesmer Skin can lose lots of stacks in a moment, it wasn't reasonable for players to keep it up. It would be too unpredictable to keep up... I thought consistency here meant Mesmer Skin uptime. It's not unusual for players to take 0% damage in most settings (even arbitrations!) because Mesmer Skin can be kept up 100% of the time without issue.

OK, fair enough. I accept that. Though, I am skeptical of your stance and your intentions.

I don't agree with you that losing a lot of stacks in a moment is really a problem in most settings and I don't personally experience any downtime with Mesmer Skin, let alone what the video shows. I think any improvements to Mesmer Skin's depletion will only help him deal with those 4 troublesome enemies though!

Completely wrong because this player has a consistent 100% Mesmer Skin uptime. And I guarantee you he wasn't looking at his stacks most of the time. Admittedly, at that point in a long survival using Reave like that to kill enemies, you don't really need to.

Let's ask him! Hey @-VS-WeebusRussus, how closely did you need to watch your Mesmer Skin stacks in your Revenant youtube video?

For reference, I met him from this post:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1111428-how-to-change-revenant-and-possibly-wisp/?do=findComment&comment=10893115

Well, I have real and extensive experience with him and you don't seem to play him. So in that sense, I do get to dismiss your opinion. I also showed you a real example of effective Revenant gameplay with 100% Mesmer Skin uptime using his kit... what serious problem? I didn't see any (most people are even impressed by the video!). Even better... I explicitly identify the criteria and the 4 enemies that exhibit those criteria that actually make your issue a very serious problem. Where's your data? You don't have anything but opinions, interpretations and thought experiments in a vacuum. Heck, you won't even acknowledge the obvious effectiveness of Thralls in that video, instead pointing out the vast minority of counterexamples and pretending Reave is being used out of desperation to keep the stacks up.

I mean, sure, it could be very nice if they rework the charge system to allow Revenant to keep his defense up in the face of enemies like PT or Exploiter. I don't agree that it would need a rework for any kind of consistency problem when it's already very easy to keep the stacks up.

I see what you're trying to do here. You're trying to twist what I said... but guess what, and you don't have to believe me: I almost never die. I almost always take 0% damage in an entire mission, star chart, arbitration, boss fights... whatever. It's really not hard to keep Mesmer Skin up. I did it with 7 stacks originally, now I do it with 14.

Yeah I had to watch them really carful, like dancing in front of lvl 2k enemys is really risky with him

nslay · October 20, 2019

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This'd be nice... if it would be at all impressive, or were completely isolated from context. Here's my run:

https://imgur.com/1ZUDJrU

Two can play that game. I used only three casts of Iron Skin on Rhino, as you can see here:

https://imgur.com/yCIDi2l

I do not main Rhino. I did not play carefully, as I kept running into blast containers, so had I played efficiently I would have needed only a single cast (without even requiring the Ironclad Charge synergy). Despite this, I killed significantly more enemies in a comparable amount of time, using far fewer casts. Your statistics are not impressive. This is, by the way, while still pointing out that I am not even criticizing Mesmer Skin's strength, yet you seem to be pointing out that its uptime is not even that good.

And I didn't play carefully either. When using Mesmer Skin alone, I only needed it 10 times in the entire 5 minutes... I wasn't ever casting this in desperation to keep my stacks up. This worked because enemies have poor accuracy and are stunned when they hit Mesmer Skin. Add motion (and I was certainly moving) and the enemies are even less likely to hit you.

Not only that, when I started using Thralls, I needed to recast it only about half the time (4 vs 10). The Thralls stretched average duration by double. It just goes to show you that you need to consider him in realistic situations in motion and using his skills and not this handful of Grineer in a vacuum idea. That's a fair assessment isn't it?

Regardless about what you consider impressive, all 3 runs reflect a usage of Mesmer Skin in a typical setting that is reasonably achievable by average players... it certainly amounts to "occasionally glance." By contrast, you do not not get an average of ~30 seconds uptime in, for example, PT or Exploiter phase 1... these guys really strip the stacks in seconds.

I think the key source of our arguing is about our understanding of "inconsistent". You're really focusing on this loss of 4 stacks in the video or how we cannot choose which instance of damage depletes a stack. Could you elaborate for me how you think this translates into gameplay problems if this doesn't actually have anything to do with Mesmer Skin uptime consistency or anything of this sort?

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This is a lie, as you can clearly see the player cast Enthrall and quickly Reave the enemy right afterwards to bring their stacks to full. The fact that this forced synergy only starts to become relevant in ultra-high-level content is itself not a good sign, and I really don't understand here why you would bring that to attention while simultaneously trying to defend Revenant.

It's a lie to pretend that this player is only spamming Reave to recover stacks. He's primarily spamming Reave to kill enemies... he even does this when has full stacks or even nearly full stacks. By the way, I didn't bring it to anyone's attention. You did when you interpreted the player spam casting Reave for survivability.

The video is there for everyone to see. I think it speaks for itself.

2 hours ago, -VS-WeebusRussus said:

Yeah I had to watch them really carful, like dancing in front of lvl 2k enemys is really risky with him

Thanks for your response! I was genuinely curious myself!

OK, I stand corrected. This player (the video creator) paid a lot more attention to Mesmer Skin stacks than I previously imagined. I completely misread his situation. Shame on me.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

In an environment where, by your own admission, Mesmer Skin is especially bad, sure. I'm not sure what we're discussing here.

I am just pointing out the kind of environment where Mesmer Skin is actually inconsistent and unreasonable to use. In no where else in the game is it so difficult to keep Mesmer Skin up protecting the player. I think this basically agrees with you.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Again, you are making stuff up here, because nobody here is calling Revenant an "almost helpless frame with a very weak defense ability". The general consensus is that Mesmer Skin is a strong overall defensive steroid... but also an inconsistent one. As shown by the example you yourself mentioned, which was not simply his ability text, but an actual in-game scenario that actually happened. Why you continue to attempt deny reality here is beyond me.

If by inconsistent, you mean that the player lost 4 stacks in a given moment (or could some large N in a given moment). OK, that happened... I never denied it. Did this actually have any practical consequence on Mesmer Skin uptime or survivability throughout the video? Would it be reasonable for an average player to notice and respond? I think this is easy and reasonable to keep track of. Although, the creator of the video wrote (see below) that he was watching those stacks real carefully.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

We are understanding power differently, because you are viewing the different components to power in isolation from each other, whereas I am looking at them holistically: you are correct that consistency is a form of power, and that the more consistent an ability, the more powerful it is. However, power is not only consistency, it also comes down to the strength of the mechanic when used successfully, its ease of use, and so on. In this respect, Mesmer Skin is a powerful ability overall, because clearly it's capable of protecting Revenant against damage, and scales better than any other defensive steroid due to its total damage nullification. That does not prevent it, however, from still being inconsistent, again because you cannot predict which charge will be spent against which instance of damage, something you yourself pointed out. Whereas you keep jumping from consistency to power whenever you want to defend Mesmer Skin, I am viewing both at the same time and understanding the nuance between raw strength, consistency, and overall power, which is why I have repeatedly pointed out that your argumentation here comes down more to sheer denial than any kind of coherent reasoning.

What? You've been telling me I've been conflating power and consistency the entire time. You clearly held one in isolation of the other (i.e. not holistic). I actually have held the holistic perspective all along. I pointed out a hypothetical example that 1 Mesmer Skin charge would in fact not be powerful because it would be impractically inconsistent even though that 1 charge could absorb infinite damage. You still called this powerful and I assume because you looked at that 1 charge's ability to absorb an infinite amount of damage.

Fine... I guess a misunderstanding.

You're right. You do not get to choose the damage 1 charge of a stack applies to. What's the problem? How does this translate to gameplay problems? Elaborate for me. For example, I read this into difficulty keeping Mesmer Skin up which is not the case in most settings.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Then why are you arguing? We both seem to agree that a better mechanic for his defense exists. Why then insist that Revenant has no design problems when he clearly does?

Mesmer Skin works really well already. There's really no practical problem with it in most of the game... gosh it's pretty easy to use and keep up. But any ability from any frame could be made better just as well! That doesn't mean I agree that Mesmer Skin needs a tweak or rework because a better version exists. But if they do rework it, I can think of PT/Exploiter as bosses where Revenant's Mesmer Skin will be more consistent (in uptime!) and far easier to use.

He has design problems in the sense that some synergies make no sense. For example, Danse Macabre returns incoming damage to enemies... but almost all Revenant players have Mesmer Skin up all the time, thus never using this synergy. Overshields and his passive are other examples that run counter to Mesmer Skin. Reave gives 1 Mesmer Skin stack to allies... none of us can figure out why! Danse Macabre also explodes pillars which is a common source of complaints (even mentioned in this thread). Pillars are inconsistently created by Thralls (direct cast Thralls make pillars on death and spread Thralls do not? I can't remember)... just to name a few.

Finally he does have thematic problems with regard to Eidolons. While his kit can be argued to reflect general sentient abilities, they largely do not reflect Eidolon abilities except for possibly only Reave (Vomvalyst).

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You can guarantee me... how? You are also lying here yet again, as the Revenant player was clearly seeking to refresh their stacks the moment they started dropping. Also, that 100% uptime doesn't prove me wrong, the method by which the charges fluctuated proves me right. You are making a whole lot of stuff up here.

Well, if that fluctuation is your entire point, it doesn't translate into any obvious problem in gameplay. It's certainly easy to keep Mesmer Skin up all the time in most settings, for example.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I referenced the video multiple times, tested out Revenant myself when you lied about how his mechanics worked, provided several threads where other people also expressed similar sentiment towards Mesmer skin, and even did a test run of the same mission you did just to prove that your raving about the ability's virtues are themselves nothing but hollow grandstanding. Meanwhile, you have... what exactly? Not only are you lying by pretending that I have no supporting evidence for my claims, your accusation is itself hypocritical given that you are yourself relying purely on your own subjective appreciation of Revenant, as well as a heap of fabrications, to defend him. By the way, I did in fact acknowledge the effectiveness of Enthrall (while pointing out its own inconsistencies), and never pretended Reave was being used exclusively as a desperate attempt to keep stacks up, so you are lying here as well.

No, you really misrepresented the use of Reave as spam casting for survivability (you really did). I'm not even sure if you were aware that Reave was also a damage ability. You misunderstood what I said about Orokin Sentries/Ospreys and tested something else (I will take this as a failure on my part for poor explanation).

What I have is a video and 3 runs to demonstrate that Mesmer Skin can be kept up consistently 100% of the time, that I didn't need to spam cast Mesmer Skin to achieve that in 3 runs, and that skills like Thralls and even seemingly Danse Macabre help with Mesmer Skin's uptime. This does not paint the picture of an unreasonable, unpredictable, inconsistent... whatever... defense ability. I even tried to use crude math in a crude thought experiment to show why this works as well as it does in most settings.

A lot of this may be moot if what you're calling "inconsistent" is something else. If it is something else entirely and with substance, it does not reflect any obvious problems in gameplay.

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

No, you don't. As shown by the above stats, evidence, and so on, your "extensive experience" does nothing to prevent the fact that what I'm saying is in fact grounded in reality. Meanwhile, what your time spent playing Revenant has clearly contributed to, however, is a severe bias towards him that has caused you to insert yourself into every Revenant design thread just to defend his every feature, even though he has a much larger reputation for being one of the most poorly-designed frames in the game. You are in fact perhaps one of the last people whose opinion one should ever consult when discussing Revenant, because your bias is so strong that it gets in the way of sensible discussion.

But I don't actually defend every feature of his. Not in this or any thread! In fact, I even agree with you about Mesmer Skin for 4 very specific enemies.

What I actually do is call people out who make claims that don't match my experience. People who merely look at his ability text or play him for a couple hours and imagine problems should be the last people anyone pays attention to. But don't ask me... I only played him for almost a thousand hours and figured out how to make him work well.

I even try to give those players pointers of how to play to not experience the problem they complain about...

What about your bias? You wrote your bias into your very first post... My bias comes from real and extensive experience.

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Ah yes, because clearly your word has been so reliable throughout this entire thread... /s

Also... how exactly am I twisting what you said here? I'm genuinely curious.

You like to take everything at face value and as an absolute in complete isolation to any kind of context or situation. You're twisting my general rule-of-thumb of recasting Mesmer Skin at about 2-3 charges and placing this into the scenario in the video where a player is dancing and losing 4 stacks as an indication I, a "seasoned Revenant player", would die or lose Mesmer Skin from that. But you know... in something extreme like Profit Taker (for example), I'm pretty much recasting all the time because the loss is so extreme! I would even say I would be spam casting Mesmer Skin in Profit Taker... it's so bad there!

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That's nice... except how does this relate to the argument at hand? It feels like you're conflating criticism of Revenant the frame, with criticism of you, the Revenant player, which is not a healthy mentality to bring to this design discussion.

OK, you're right. It was just a follow-up to your comment.

Midas · October 21, 2019

Revenant seems to just be way above your skill level to comprehend his endurance abilities, literally one of the strongest frames rn.

ThatRoomba · October 21, 2019

Hey guys, forum lurker here. Until Gauss, Rev has been my go-to since his release. Just wanted to chime in here.

What exactly are some of you having difficulty with concerning Mesmer Skin. This is an absolute joke.

Turn it on, easy mode activated. Charges getting low? Refresh it.

The length and efforts into these complaints about a straight forward, forgiving, and powerful defensive buff is truly mind boggling.

Good Lord.

Edited October 21, 2019 by ThatRoomba
Hard 2 spellz

(XBOX)l Saminator l · October 21, 2019

3 minutes ago, ThatRoomba said:

Hey guys, forum lurker here. Until Gauss, Rev has been my go-to since his release. Just wanted to chime in here.

What exactly are some of you having difficulty with concerning Mesmer Skin. This is an absolute joke.

Turn it on, easy mode activated. Charges getting low? Refresh it.

The length and efforts into these complaints about a straight forward, forgiving, and powerful defensive buff is truly mind boggling.

Good Lord.

Agreed, I honestly like the way Revenant is right now. Their are definitely other warframes that need much more attention and to be touched-up more than Revenant.

As for the fear of some players feeling that after using revenant first ability on enemies, other squad members may kill those enemies, well when I had a revenant in my squad that was controlling the enemies with his first ability, I seem to be unable to damage them. When I mark them it also comes up as Ally, but the Revenant player is able to kill them. So all is fine.

Teridax68 · October 21, 2019

20 hours ago, nslay said:

And I didn't play carefully either. When using Mesmer Skin alone, I only needed it 10 times in the entire 5 minutes... I wasn't ever casting this in desperation to keep my stacks up. This worked because enemies have poor accuracy and are stunned when they hit Mesmer Skin. Add motion (and I was certainly moving) and the enemies are even less likely to hit you.

Assuming you have 15 stacks per cast of Mesmer Skin, that basically still means every enemy in your mission hit you at least once, forcing you to cast your defensive steroid ten times in a single exterminate mission. It's not even a particularly high-level one, yet you still had to refresh your defensive steroid once every 30 seconds on average, less than most frames with duration-based defensive steroids. Not only are you saying absolutely nothing about Mesmer Skin's consistency, you're showing that its average uptime isn't even that great, even when put in your experienced hands, compared to my handful of Iron Skins on a frame I barely play.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Not only that, when I started using Thralls, I needed to recast it only about half the time (4 vs 10). The Thralls stretched average duration by double. It just goes to show you that you need to consider him in realistic situations in motion and using his skills and not this handful of Grineer in a vacuum idea. That's a fair assessment isn't it?

Then why didn't you do that instead? This is, by the way, with me pointing out that not only would that still be more casts than what I had to use, had I actually used Ironclad Charge I would have needed only two ability casts and lasted for a significant amount of time in even a high-level Endless mission. You are inventing situations that you are dismissing immediately after, which only end up proving you further wrong.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Regardless about what you consider impressive, all 3 runs reflect a usage of Mesmer Skin in a typical setting that is reasonably achievable by average players... it certainly amounts to "occasionally glance." By contrast, you do not not get an average of ~30 seconds uptime in, for example, PT or Exploiter phase 1... these guys really strip the stacks in seconds.

So not only are you pointing out inconsistency here, your results show otherwise, and are themselves contradicted not only by my much easier run, but also by the very Revenant player who took the video, who you chose to rope into this conversation. Who are you trying to fool here?

20 hours ago, nslay said:

I think the key source of our arguing is about our understanding of "inconsistent". You're really focusing on this loss of 4 stacks in the video or how we cannot choose which instance of damage depletes a stack. Could you elaborate for me how you think this translates into gameplay problems if this doesn't actually have anything to do with Mesmer Skin uptime consistency or anything of this sort?

But it does have everything to do with Mesmer Skin uptime consistency, because you very obviously need to recast Mesmer Skin or use Reave on Thralls to keep stacks up. Problem is, because stacks deplete at a rate the player has no real means of predicting, players have to refresh at an inefficient rate while constantly keeping an eye on their stacks. Again, the video, and the player within, demonstrate this.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

It's a lie to pretend that this player is only spamming Reave to recover stacks. He's primarily spamming Reave to kill enemies... he even does this when has full stacks or even nearly full stacks. By the way, I didn't bring it to anyone's attention. You did when you interpreted the player spam casting Reave for survivability.

You're right, it would be a lie to claim that they were only spamming Reave to recover stacks... which is why I never said it, and made it clear I was aware the player was also using it to kill other enemies. They are doing both, whereas you were the one claiming they were only doing so to kill specific targets here. It is you who are lying here, both by taking the exact opposite stance and by implying I said otherwise.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

The video is there for everyone to see. I think it speaks for itself.

It does... and so does the player who you invited onto this discussion. You really should know better at this point.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Thanks for your response! I was genuinely curious myself!

OK, I stand corrected. This player (the video creator) paid a lot more attention to Mesmer Skin stacks than I previously imagined. I completely misread his situation. Shame on me.

Yes, shame on you, not because you've corrected yourself here, but because you are still doubling down everywhere else on your post, despite the player you pinged disproving you. Not only was your argument bunk to begin with, you're now demonstrating this bizarre doublethink where the same argument you acknowledge got disproven in one paragraph is somehow still valid in every other.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

I am just pointing out the kind of environment where Mesmer Skin is actually inconsistent and unreasonable to use. In no where else in the game is it so difficult to keep Mesmer Skin up protecting the player. I think this basically agrees with you.

So Mesmer Skin is consistent... because it's inconsistent in some environments you pointed out? What? The only thing you're saying that relates to your core point is that you're simply arguing from insistence that Mesmer Skin is otherwise consistent, by whichever arbitrary personal standard you have set. You are making no sense here.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

If by inconsistent, you mean that the player lost 4 stacks in a given moment (or could some large N in a given moment). OK, that happened... I never denied it. Did this actually have any practical consequence on Mesmer Skin uptime or survivability throughout the video? Would it be reasonable for an average player to notice and respond? I think this is easy and reasonable to keep track of. Although, the creator of the video wrote (see below) that he was watching those stacks real carefully.

Hold on, you're shifting the goalposts here. The point has always been that Revenant can lose virtually any amount of stacks at any point in time depending on how many times he gets hit, meaning his charge-based system of defense is inconsistent. By WeebusRussus's own admission, as well as your own earlier in this thread, this means Revenant players need to constantly keep track of their stacks, and as the video shows, also spam abilities just to prevent them from falling by any amount. The fact that Mesmer Skin can be recast or recharged through infinite ability usage does nothing to contradict the fact that it depletes at an inconsistent rate, which is the problem that has been discussed from the very beginning.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

What? You've been telling me I've been conflating power and consistency the entire time. You clearly held one in isolation of the other (i.e. not holistic).

Where?

20 hours ago, nslay said:

I actually have held the holistic perspective all along. I pointed out a hypothetical example that 1 Mesmer Skin charge would in fact not be powerful because it would be impractically inconsistent even though that 1 charge could absorb infinite damage. You still called this powerful and I assume because you looked at that 1 charge's ability to absorb an infinite amount of damage.

I said the ability for the charge to block an infinite amount of damage was powerful, while its inconsistency wasn't, leading to a situationally powerful, yet inconsistent effect. That is what a holistic view is. In trying to prove your "holistic" view of power, you have proven the exact opposite, by showing complete and arbitrary disregard of one aspect over the other. Not only are you proving my point by conflating consistency with power, it doesn't even seem like you understand what it means to have a holistic perspective on anything.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Fine... I guess a misunderstanding.

You're right. You do not get to choose the damage 1 charge of a stack applies to. What's the problem? How does this translate to gameplay problems? Elaborate for me. For example, I read this into difficulty keeping Mesmer Skin up which is not the case in most settings.

It translates to gameplay problems, because players have no consistent way of gauging how well their defense through Mesmer Skin is holding without constantly checking their stacks. Meanwhile, duration-based steroids are consistent to a fault in this regard, whereas Iron Skin-like health buffers merely depend on the player's general familiarity with enemy damage levels to have an idea of when to refresh. Because any one charge could absorb any given attack of drastically different impact, the player can't really follow how Mesmer Skin is depleting without constant surveillance. Thus, the ability is inconsistent, and so in a way that is detrimental to gameplay by constantly distracting the player and forcing them to resort to ability spam, when other defensive effects incur no such problems.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Mesmer Skin works really well already. There's really no practical problem with it in most of the game... gosh it's pretty easy to use and keep up. But any ability from any frame could be made better just as well! That doesn't mean I agree that Mesmer Skin needs a tweak or rework because a better version exists. But if they do rework it, I can think of PT/Exploiter as bosses where Revenant's Mesmer Skin will be more consistent (in uptime!) and far easier to use.

But that's your own opinion, then, and you don't get to singlehandedly halt all discussion regarding Revenant just because you personally believe he's good enough, certainly not when even you admit he has faults. You are basically admitting here to having mired this entire discussion in pointless arguing for no valid reason at all.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

He has design problems in the sense that some synergies make no sense. For example, Danse Macabre returns incoming damage to enemies... but almost all Revenant players have Mesmer Skin up all the time, thus never using this synergy. Overshields and his passive are other examples that run counter to Mesmer Skin. Reave gives 1 Mesmer Skin stack to allies... none of us can figure out why! Danse Macabre also explodes pillars which is a common source of complaints (even mentioned in this thread). Pillars are inconsistently created by Thralls (direct cast Thralls make pillars on death and spread Thralls do not? I can't remember)... just to name a few.

Good! Glad you agree he needs to change.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Finally he does have thematic problems with regard to Eidolons. While his kit can be argued to reflect general sentient abilities, they largely do not reflect Eidolon abilities except for possibly only Reave (Vomvalyst).

Thank you for agreeing with what I've said from my very first post here. Now why then did you point to that when accusing me of bias?

20 hours ago, nslay said:

Well, if that fluctuation is your entire point, it doesn't translate into any obvious problem in gameplay. It's certainly easy to keep Mesmer Skin up all the time in most settings, for example.

But it clearly did, as the player themselves admitted to. The only way it is "easy" to keep Mesmer Skin up is by constantly spamming abilities at a highly inefficient rate, and thus abuse a broken Energy economy via high-end items, which doesn't help with Revenant's accessibility nor his gameplay health.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

No, you really misrepresented the use of Reave as spam casting for survivability (you really did). I'm not even sure if you were aware that Reave was also a damage ability. You misunderstood what I said about Orokin Sentries/Ospreys and tested something else (I will take this as a failure on my part for poor explanation).

Except I didn't; you are clearly lying here, as even you were forced to admit that WeebusRussus directly came here just to confirm what I've said. I also specifically stated in my own posts that Reave was in fact being used to kill Ancients, and it is you who tried to misrepresent me as claiming that Revenant was using Reave for the sole purpose of recharging Mesmer Skin. It boggles the mind to see you not only argue from a perspective so clearly disconnected from reality, yet also accuse me of doing the same. Literally every piece of evidence I have invoked proves my point, including the word of the Revenant player you pulled in here. Meanwhile, literally nothing you have said to support your argument has been true, and an uncomfortable amount of it was wholly made up. What do you have to say for yourself?

20 hours ago, nslay said:

What I have is a video and 3 runs to demonstrate that Mesmer Skin can be kept up consistently 100% of the time, that I didn't need to spam cast Mesmer Skin to achieve that in 3 runs, and that skills like Thralls and even seemingly Danse Macabre help with Mesmer Skin's uptime. This does not paint the picture of an unreasonable, unpredictable, inconsistent... whatever... defense ability. I even tried to use crude math in a crude thought experiment to show why this works as well as it does in most settings.

But literally none of that says anything about Mesmer Skin's consistency, as has been already pointed out to you at length, and when placed in context your "evidence" actually works against you, as shown by my own run, the video, and the player within. You've completely lost the plot.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

A lot of this may be moot if what you're calling "inconsistent" is something else. If it is something else entirely and with substance, it does not reflect any obvious problems in gameplay.

I see we're now at the stage where you've implicitly acknowledged your arguments are bunk, so instead you've chosen to armchair philosophize and debate the very definition of inconsistency. Nice try, but no, even you admit the ability is inconsistent.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

But I don't actually defend every feature of his. Not in this or any thread! In fact, I even agree with you about Mesmer Skin for 4 very specific enemies.

But this is the weirdest part, though: you actually seem to acknowledge the problems pointed out, but still rabidly defend Revenant against any suggestion for change, because apparently him having a whole host of design and implementation issues is secondary to you thinking he's good enough for you, and you personally. You are ready to change the very meaning of the English language when discussing consistency, if it means downplaying all of Revenant's issues enough to quash any discussion promoting positive change. Not only has your entire contribution to this thread been useless, even you acknowledge that it's useless by remarking that you're arguing against the existence of flaws even you admit are present in his kit.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

What I actually do is call people out who make claims that don't match my experience.

In other words, you genuinely believe everyone who has a different opinion from you is wrong by default. That explains a lot.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

People who merely look at his ability text or play him for a couple hours and imagine problems should be the last people anyone pays attention to. But don't ask me... I only played him for almost a thousand hours and figured out how to make him work well.

Which seems to have merely contributed to a massive and palpable bias towards Revenant that has rendered you incapable of discussing him productively at all. Meanwhile, even you agree to the criticism I've made of Revenant, and what I've said has been corroborated by evidence and other people's confirmation, so I'm clearly not speaking from ignorance here, and your attempts here to silence me for having played him less than you do nothing against this.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

I even try to give those players pointers of how to play to not experience the problem they complain about...

Because clearly, telling players to git gud is a perfectly valid response to them pointing out a design problem... /s

20 hours ago, nslay said:

What about your bias? You wrote your bias into your very first post... My bias comes from real and extensive experience.

Literally where? I merely stated the reasoning for why I think Revenant's design is poor, an opinion even you claim to agree with. Your bias doesn't stem from "extensive experience" so much as it has visibly developed from a misguided sense of attachment to a frame you've committed to. Knowing how a frame works from experience is different from wanting to defend your pet frame at all costs, and unfortunately, you are yet again conflating the two here, particularly since you've been shown to outright lie about how he works just for the sake of his defense.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

You like to take everything at face value and as an absolute in complete isolation to any kind of context or situation.

Yes, which is why I constantly refer to external sources, including your own, and discuss them in the full context of the game, while you insist that your personal opinion on Revenant and the meaning of the word "consistency" are the only things that matter. You are rather evidently projecting here.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

You're twisting my general rule-of-thumb of recasting Mesmer Skin at about 2-3 charges and placing this into the scenario in the video where a player is dancing and losing 4 stacks as an indication I, a "seasoned Revenant player", would die or lose Mesmer Skin from that.

Yes, because that is simple math: if you recast at 3 charges, that means that if you were at 4 charges, you wouldn't normally recast, causing you to lose all remaining charges instantly at that instance, opening you up to a shot that would be instantly fatal at those levels. If you didn't want to trip yourself up on your own argumentation, you should've just lied one more time and given a bigger number.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

But you know... in something extreme like Profit Taker (for example), I'm pretty much recasting all the time because the loss is so extreme! I would even say I would be spam casting Mesmer Skin in Profit Taker... it's so bad there!

But then, by your own insistence, missions that don't involve any of those four special enemy types wouldn't require such maintenance on your part, and the mission WeebusRussus was running was in fact one of those missions. Again, your argumentation here is inconsistent, just like Mesmer Skin.

20 hours ago, nslay said:

OK, you're right. It was just a follow-up to your comment.

It is also the exact same kind of argument you are invoking when bringing up your mediocre results after having done that Exterminate run. Why not get rid of that red herring as well?

Revenant's abilities are dumb

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