Can you make the Scindo prime worth collecting?

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you mean you'll just go from the stat meta to the niche meta?

Absolutely!

 

6 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So you either create an underwhelming function, or you tune it high enough where it becomes good and people shift to it for the specific function. It's an either/or in Warframe, because that's the result of mistakes the Devs have made in the process of building up this game.

Sure, but the goal is to have less "either/or" and a bit more "...maybe?".  Niche use helps with that, and if it accomplishes nothing else at least promotes analysis, debate, and variety.  The Meta won't ever be dissolved but better to break it into smaller pieces than to have it monolithic and dominated by the same few weapons.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Niche use helps with that, and if it accomplishes nothing else at least promotes analysis, debate, and variety.

Which would be a fine goal if there were actually enough niches. What do we have that would actually support 53 specific niches? Or about 23 if you were to apply repeats of the Melee effects on the Primaries and Secondaries to make 'sets'.

As it is? I don't think these will actually have that kind of variety given Warframe's actual limitations as well.

[Tiltskillet]

42 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Which would be a fine goal if there were actually enough niches. What do we have that would actually support 53 specific niches? Or about 23 if you were to apply repeats of the Melee effects on the Primaries and Secondaries to make 'sets'.

As it is? I don't think these will actually have that kind of variety given Warframe's actual limitations as well.

I think there's enough niches to improve vastly on what we've got now.

It's not perfect by any means but to me it's a Don't let  the perfect be the enemy of the good" situation.

If you think it's not an improvement, or displaces a better strategy I do want to hear about it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If you think it's not an improvement, or displaces a better strategy I do want to hear about it.

I think in a world where every Prime is special, no Prime is.

If I pick up a big axe, that's what I want it to be. It shouldn't need a niche function to make it a better choice, it should have stats that let it compete with the other weapons, but be aesthetically different to them specifically so that while I'm doing exactly the same thing as I would be with any other blade, it has distinction.

Because while you think there's enough niches, I just don't believe that. There is such a thing as 'too niche'. And there are a limited number of functions that the Evolution Engine is able to do that it doesn't already do.

Beyond that, I want Primes to be treated just like the Prime frames; They're the same weapon, but made better, made with the most refined materials so they do what they do better. But functionally they are the same. Warframes get base stats boosted because DE's statement on the matter is that any frame, if it has the same base, should perform the same if equipped with the same mod setup. While this can't be the case for Weapons, it should be the same principle; the base stats are better, not the overall functions.

And while I know exactly what this sounds like; that I'm just rejecting the change for the sake of it... I'm really not trying to say that.

I'm saying that when a weapon is released with a unique effect, I want that to be actually unique. Not just 'oh, it's a Prime, it has to have something'. That mentality leads to the silly whining of people like old BigEvilJack on that thread of his desperately wanting the Tekko to have one of these effects just because there was a 'precedent' for it.

[taiiat]

On 2019-10-17 at 3:41 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I hear you on that, but... what? What features would create enough variety? Are we talking about putting in Borderlands levels of branding difference here, where the Primes all have a red-text function, or something lesser?

Borderlands has a nice idea but the Rarities and weighted chances really ruin things. but i mean fundamentally, maybe? depends on what you're thinking of when you think of that.

if we have say, 10 Weapons in one Class alongside each other, differentiating by Stats can work up to a point (up to the point that you run out of different Stats to weigh in or out of, essentially). if you have more items than that, you'll have to differentiate more uniquely. what would that be? well it can be practically anything. 

there's certainly some good examples of Weapons that make themselves stand out.

• Baza stands out decently by Reloading super fast, being Silent, but having reduced effective Range
• Buzlok stands out by being a Projectile Weapon in a Class of mostly Ray Trace Weapons, and the Beacon is obviously quite different.
• Hema. speaks for itself.
• Battacor is pretty unique.
• Argonak tried, but needed a unique Mod to make it really worthwhile. ofcourse why it has to pay a Mod Slot for what's unique about it to be worthwhile i don't get but meh.
• Fulmin is certainly out of the ordinary since practically no normal Weapons use Regcharging, eh?
  • Flux Rifle too, in the same premise.
• Simulor is one of the most unique Guns in the game.
• Zarr stands out quite significantly, even if each of its Modes were dedicated Weapons, they'd still stand out. Cannon Mode stands out from other Explosive Weapons, Shotgun Mode via a mixture of high Base Damage, innate PT, potential to apply a lot of Status.
• all of the Spearguns are quite different from each other, i would say? and it's certainly much more than just Stats.
• Astilla stands out from other Shotguns, it's not as pronounced as some Weapons but Slugs & an AoE is certainly different.
• Plasmor is certainly different from the usual Pellets.
• Exergis despite only having Statistical differences, still gives a pretty unique feel, i would say.
• Drakgoon is different via having Variable Charge. always the perfect amount of Spread that you need, and innate PT is a notable feature on everything but Sniper Rifles still.
• Komorex is certainly different, despite how ugly it is. :p
• Lanka is different. again not as pronounced as some other Weapons but trading effective Rate of Fire via having a Charge to gain Base Damage does make it stand out.

you get the idea, i imagine. there are Weapons currently that make themselves stand out, which is a feeling that the user can feel when using it. Weapons could do that more strongly, if they wanted to stand out, more strongly.

so coming back to Borderlands, Borderlands has the capability to make some really unique, weird Weapons - though most of the Weapons you find, aren't that. Unique Weapons are certainly very different, but everything else is just a mixture of random some more of this, some less of that.
we have plenty of that already in Warframe, see also: Assault Rifle sort of Primaries, where they're almost all just Skins of each other. which in the case of Warframe does include things that would normally be considered LMG's, Et Cetera ofcourse. almost all of those Weapons are exactly the same. again it doesn't help that Guns basically got made into all the same ones by the 'balance pass' that just made everything Critting Status Hybrids. so Statistically almost every Gun is now very similar to each other.

 

so then like i mentioned earlier in the Thread, a couple off the top of my head ideas for the sorts of effects that would match with the type of theme people usually associate with a Great Axe. hench why i came up with some AoE on impact in two different styles.
but it could be something more outlandish, ofcourse.

[Andele3025]

IMO all primes should have unique effects based on their design like venkas multiplier increase per hits (tho itll have to be reworked with Melee 3.0 now) and redeemers knockback wave.

Scindo getting a massive headshot (or general weakspot) bonus does sound good (a 3~5x like snipers). Chop chop.