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(NSW)TheFrontz

why is thier no trading post in this game

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1 hour ago, SayikVindal said:

I think that view is a bit extreme and exaggerated. Perhaps veterans find little value in items that are not engame mods or plat, but that does not mean that other players will not find value in it.

It would exist as a supplement to the current trading system. Keeping plat out discourages farmers, but provides convenience to the ordinary player that has not yet reached epic status in the game. I would argue that credits are still valuable to quite a few players, and a place to sell these items for credits would be welcomed by those players.

Dude, many of us literally just give stuff away to the newbs we run into. And take newbs to credit farming nodes to give them a little boost. 

But remember, you can blaze through the star chart by MR 5 if you really want to. That gives you access to the index and credits stop being an issue. 

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15 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

*snip*

Your refusal to engage in a serious discussion makes me sad, but at least I tried. Can't win them all, I guess.

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

that prevents an item to need a 'drop chance' of like 0.01%, sure. then you "only" need Tradable items to have a 'drop chance' roughly around 1%.
ofcourse, whether people would actually do any Trading again then still in that scenario, is cloudy. that'll be that the only items that you can purchase, are ones that hardcore Players got very recently. so the prices will be high. and so very, very few people will buy them. you might say that's a waste and people wouldn't do that but no, the top 10% don't need more Plat, they're Trading just for something to do. we can wait, we can be patient, because we have nothing else to do anyways, and in an Organized Squad even very Rare items can be acquired in lumpsum in 30 minutes or so, and then you post them, logout, and see if anything happens.

I don't know where you're pulling those numbers from, but a much bigger problem with this idea that I see is that it would destroy the vaulted item market. But like I said, pros and cons. It is a way to prevent oversupply.

 

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I've been giving this thread a read through, and though I'm nowhere near being will versed in economics, I have come up with a pair of ideas for improved trading is like feedback on.

First is a trading post where you can only list buy orders, no 'want to sell'. Pick an item you want, select a price you're willing to pay or another item your willing to trade, and prospective sellers can check to see what's in high demand.

Second is specter-based shopkeeping, where you build and drop a specter in a relay, load it's inventory with what you're selling and your prices, (up to so many items at once, perhaps being able to bundle sets as a single item) and leave it there for buyers to browse through.

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11 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Your refusal to engage in a serious discussion makes me sad, but at least I tried. Can't win them all, I guess.

I was being extremely serious when I pointed out that your suggestions are ridiculous and why. Same as the other people on the thread telling you the same thing. 

Yes you have many ideas for how to fix the problem you would create if you get your way. Unfortunately so far they're all bad ones. And the kicker is that they're not needed, as long as we don't try to screw up the entire economy the way you keep asking for. 

 

4 hours ago, FatalPapercut said:

I've been giving this thread a read through, and though I'm nowhere near being will versed in economics, I have come up with a pair of ideas for improved trading is like feedback on.

First is a trading post where you can only list buy orders, no 'want to sell'. Pick an item you want, select a price you're willing to pay or another item your willing to trade, and prospective sellers can check to see what's in high demand.

This isn't a terrible idea. It doesn't increase supply, but does make it easier to meet demand. Only issue is that no matter how low the buy price, there's probably going to be someone who's desperate enough to agree to it. 

4 hours ago, FatalPapercut said:

Second is specter-based shopkeeping, where you build and drop a specter in a relay, load it's inventory with what you're selling and your prices, (up to so many items at once, perhaps being able to bundle sets as a single item) and leave it there for buyers to browse through.

Yup, you just went into a bad place. That level of automation is not something that DE wants. 

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I was being extremely serious when I pointed out that your suggestions are ridiculous and why. Same as the other people on the thread telling you the same thing. 

Yes you have many ideas for how to fix the problem you would create if you get your way. Unfortunately so far they're all bad ones. And the kicker is that they're not needed, as long as we don't try to screw up the entire economy the way you keep asking for. 

Yes, I know that you and others keep repeating long-debunked 'points'. That's exactly what I was referring by your refusal to engage in a serious discussion. What you're doing is just propaganda, repeating the same falsehood over and over until people start believing it. Why you're so motivated to do that, I don't know. My own motivations are crystal clear, I want the game to be better, to waste less of the player's time on unfun chores. Seems like a no-brainer to me, yet every time the idea is mentioned, it's met with incredibly rude, vocal, and poorly-reasoned opposition, as if it were heresy.

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2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Yes, I know that you and others keep repeating long-debunked 'points'. That's exactly what I was referring by your refusal to engage in a serious discussion. What you're doing is just propaganda, repeating the same falsehood over and over until people start believing it. Why you're so motivated to do that, I don't know. My own motivations are crystal clear, I want the game to be better, to waste less of the player's time on unfun chores. Seems like a no-brainer to me, yet every time the idea is mentioned, it's met with incredibly rude, vocal, and poorly-reasoned opposition, as if it were heresy.

Buddy, you don't even grasp how the suggestions you made are ridiculous despite the fact that multiple people are pointing out that they all try to "encourage trade by discouraging trade". Do you really think that you are a good judge of whether points you disagree with have been debunked? 

(Hint: you aren't because they weren't.) 

Next time you have an idea that seems like a no-brainer, think very carefully about what that might mean. 

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12 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

multiple people are pointing out that they all try to "encourage trade by discouraging trade".

Yes, I know you and others are responding not to what I said but rather to ridiculous caricatures of it. I never said anything about encouraging trade, literally all I talked about was maintaining a similar amount of trading despite making the process less of a hassle, so that's an obvious straw man right there. The reasons for why you guys do it are pretty obvious to me, and I believe I asked you to stop doing it already, but here we are again. So let me ask you one more time, would you like to engage in a serious discussion and actually respond to what I'm saying?

12 hours ago, Tinklzs said:

Uh-huh. Remind me how many years they kept repeating they had no plans to put vacuum on pets? Was it three or four? Or maybe even five? Do you think the game is worse now that they've caved to player pressure and did it?

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11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yup, you just went into a bad place. That level of automation is not something that DE wants. 

Really? I had figured specter shops would have been one of the more reasonable compromises. 

In my armchair developer version, the system would be almost identical to how we have a player standing there now, same 6 item limit, and the player would have to manually visit the specter to reload items, collect earnings, or deploy a new one. The idea is to allow players to sell things while still being able to play the game, so people will be much more likely to find what they're looking for instead of having those items being carried by someone who can't respond to trade chat due to being out on a mission. Inversely, the seller loses out on being able to haggle, or respond immediately to someone setting up shop next to them and undercutting prices.

I should also mention the specter shops would exist alongside trade chat, not replace it, but I just like the thought of having trading happen in a physical space instead of a pop up window.

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On 2019-10-15 at 10:38 PM, (NSW)TheFrontz said:

i just dont get this this game has been out for as long as it has and thier is no trading post i have been sitting here for weeks with a ton of prime parts trying to trade them no one wants to buy from me or trade with me for them i just went to the maroo's baazar and thier was like 20+ people just sitting thier hands raised trying to trade thier has to be a better way to do this why cant thier be a place to put an item up for trade for platinum or a different item to get can someone explain why the trading post isnt a thing in this game i mean trading face to face is good to have to but this game could really use a trading post

As someone who used to exploit trading posts/automated trade/ Auction Houses, I'll pass, I actually like this game enough to not push on economics exploits. And we already got Rivens...🤮 I'm sure those are getting exploited heavily.

And yes, I have participated (among 300 other players, over 10 years ago) in the closing of 1 mmo due to bots and 3rd party gone so bad the company could not operate. 

And yes, thats how old, efficient, and proven, Auction Houses, Trade Posts, and all other automated markets, are at effectively destroy games.

Once you introduce automated trading, you are inviting IRL black market. Thats payment information fraud, ramparts bots encouraging less than informed players (or immorally impaired) to buy off 3rd party; thats now DE wasting diminished income into dealing with bots and frauds (you think we are experiencing content drought now?).

And yes, I was once a player that though I could live off riches exploiting automated markets; I actually enjoyed that game, but was not clearly thinking on long term, game closed 6 months after things went wrong. Don't do that Warframe, specially if you claim to enjoy it. Thats all.

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27 minutes ago, FatalPapercut said:

Really? I had figured specter shops would have been one of the more reasonable compromises. 

Really. They're not. And they've been suggested a gazillion times. 

Also, almost nobody who knows anything about trading ever goes to Maroos. Having to wander through a whole bunch of newbs, literally checking each one as you go, only to find that every single one is trying to hawk junk that nobody who knows anything is ever going to buy for the prices they ask? Yeah. Not my idea of a great time. And it seems most people agree because they don't go to Maroos. 

 

But please, believe me, it's been suggested way too many times. 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Really. They're not. And they've been suggested a gazillion times. 

Also, almost nobody who knows anything about trading ever goes to Maroos. Having to wander through a whole bunch of newbs, literally checking each one as you go, only to find that every single one is trying to hawk junk that nobody who knows anything is ever going to buy for the prices they ask? Yeah. Not my idea of a great time. And it seems most people agree because they don't go to Maroos. 

 

But please, believe me, it's been suggested way too many times. 

Okay, but I haven't personally heard it brought up in any of the other trading threads I've poked my head into. I'd like to think it'd fix the problem of maroo's being a buyers junkyard since people with decent product can set up without having to waste their time standing around or competing with the mile a minute trade chat.

I won't say it's a perfect system, but it feels a lot more immersive than passively watching trade chat go flying by and hoping you don't miss what you want amidst a sea of riven spam. It has merit, is all I'm saying

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35 minutes ago, FatalPapercut said:

Okay, but I haven't personally heard it brought up in any of the other trading threads I've poked my head into. I'd like to think it'd fix the problem of maroo's being a buyers junkyard since people with decent product can set up without having to waste their time standing around or competing with the mile a minute trade chat.

I won't say it's a perfect system, but it feels a lot more immersive than passively watching trade chat go flying by and hoping you don't miss what you want amidst a sea of riven spam. It has merit, is all I'm saying

No, I'm sorry but, it really doesn't have merit. 

Maroos is for newbs to see how it's done and occasionally to try their hand until they're ready for trade chat. It's got all the terrible parts of trade, mixed up with the ignorance of the uninitiated. 

First of all, grasp the concept of the relays. There's a limit to how many people fit in. So you might be trying to sell the rarest and most valuable gear, but the vast majority of your potential customers literally cannot join your relay and see what you are offering. 

Second realise that the relay will fill with both buyers and sellers. But while buyers move on, the sellers stick around, gradually filling out the relay with people who don't actually want to buy anything. 

Then there's the fact that most of them don't grasp the low value of the items they have. So the prices are typically insane. 

 

Compared to the trade chat? Yeah that's pretty much one of the levels of Hell made real. Especially since you can apply a filter to the chat whenever you want. Which makes it only show the messages containing that term. 

If you didn't know that there's a filter, or if you can't figure out how to make effective use of it, then yeah trade chat can be daunting. But there's an easy way to fix that. 

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As convenient as it would be, I'm sure DE has their reasons to not do it. Maybe it has something to do with the "gold seller" problem of other games. Or maybe it has to do with the technical side of things, in how it could affect their databases.

Though I guess they could just be lazy. They are good at procrastinating. They also probably don't find the idea interesting enough, since they tend to just work on projects that are actually fun for them.

I personally would love the ability to place "buy orders" instead of listing up items for sale. This means players could put up a listing of an item they want, and the price they're willing to pay for it, and then sellers have to actively work at making those sales still.

This is pretty much how our own third-party methods currently work anyways. An in-game method would be much more convenient.

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Trading is one of the things i would like to see changed.
Keep the old trading system okay, but additionally can we please have the introvert version of trading where you just put your stuff at your price and it can even sell while you are offline?!

Seriously, i really, really, really dislike the chatting part, all the begging to find someone who wanna buy my S#&$, to have them invite me to their Dojo or to invite to my Dojo just for a quick trade.

Especially when you have cheap items you wanna sell, and yeah there is that market website, but i also dislike having chrome ( or any browser ) all the time open...then have to chat with people just to hear "sorry already bought some" or NO ANSWER at all...

And please if you ever going to add a different trading system, do not implement taxes where money is just vanished for KEKs n Giggles...
 

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10 minutes ago, Vyra said:

Trading is one of the things i would like to see changed.
Keep the old trading system okay, but additionally can we please have the introvert version of trading where you just put your stuff at your price and it can even sell while you are offline?!
 

That would literally create irreparable damage the entire in-game economy. No joke. It's a popular request but one that's actually really, really bad. 

 

10 minutes ago, Vyra said:

Seriously, i really, really, really dislike the chatting part, all the begging to find someone who wanna buy my S#&$, to have them invite me to their Dojo or to invite to my Dojo just for a quick trade.

Then you're selling stuff for the wrong price. Remember, most of the people in the game don't want to buy the regular stuff you're selling. Not at any price above "prime junk". 

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10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

That would literally create irreparable damage the entire in-game economy. No joke. It's a popular request but one that's actually really, really bad. 

 

Then you're selling stuff for the wrong price. Remember, most of the people in the game don't want to buy the regular stuff you're selling. Not at any price above "prime junk". 

why? only because we dont would have to chat it would ruin game economy?
Where economically is the difference between a trade where i need to talk to other or without the chatters? 

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6 minutes ago, Vyra said:

why? only because we dont would have to chat it would ruin game economy?
Where economically is the difference between a trade where i need to talk to other or without the chatters? 

Because of how supply and demand work in this game. 

Supply is potentially infinite. Demand for most items is highly finite. (Think about how many copies of Ember prime you can farm, and how many times you want to build an Ember prime.)

For most items supply also vastly outstrips demand. This is why prices gradually fall over time. 

But supply is limited to "how many people are actually trying to trade at any given moment".

Having a passive system, that sells for you while you are playing, would increase the number of potential sellers to many tens of thousands of at any given moment, with spikes up to hundreds of thousands. 

Having one which trades even if you are offline, would increase the potential sellers into the millions. 

 

And please understand that we already get people slashing prices within the limits of the current system. That's why the prices for new Primes drops so quickly. Imagine what happens when supply outstrips demand more than a thousandfold. 

Can you see the difference now? 

That's a part of why DE has repeatedly said they don't want automated trades. 

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On 2019-10-16 at 2:54 AM, seprent said:

Also chat filters are a thing really helps cut down the breakneck speed Trade chat goes at 

How do you do that?

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Brent1016 said:

How do you do that?

Ok when you open the chat window and go to trade chat there is a magnifying glass in the top left click it and will open a box for you to filter things out put in everything you want if includes term is check with a green check mark it means it will show you everything that used that word 

For instance trade chat goes a mile a minute with WTS offers but filter for WTB with includes term checked it will show you only things that have WTB somewhere in them drastically cutting down trade chat speed getting more specific will slow it more but help narrow down what you were wanting to buy or sell 
EX: WTB + includes term = Show all WTB offers WTB + Chroma prime set + includes term = People only looking to buy chroma prime set 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Because of how supply and demand work in this game. 

Supply is potentially infinite. Demand for most items is highly finite. (Think about how many copies of Ember prime you can farm, and how many times you want to build an Ember prime.)

For most items supply also vastly outstrips demand. This is why prices gradually fall over time. 

But supply is limited to "how many people are actually trying to trade at any given moment".

Having a passive system, that sells for you while you are playing, would increase the number of potential sellers to many tens of thousands of at any given moment, with spikes up to hundreds of thousands. 

Having one which trades even if you are offline, would increase the potential sellers into the millions. 

That is why, as I have told you many times, you design such a system to limit the amount of trading a player can do, so that while the process becomes more convenient, it doesn't result in an increased supply of items coming into the market.

Really, we've been through this several times, even in this thread. And yet here you are, again repeating long-debunked points, trying to make them stick through sheer repetition.

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19 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That is why, as I have told you many times, you design such a system to limit the amount of trading a player can do, so that while the process becomes more convenient, it doesn't result in an increased supply of items coming into the market.

Really, we've been through this several times, even in this thread. And yet here you are, again repeating long-debunked points, trying to make them stick through sheer repetition.

And I have indicated to you that that your wonderful "magic wand of +20 inventiveness and +38 coding skill" is not a real thing and the ridiculous suggestion that you have made, to fix the problems you want to create, aren't anywhere near as good as you think they are. 

See if you can't find someone to explain the whole thing to you, because you seem to be missing one heck of a lot of the basic ideas you need to work with. Because frankly I'm out of patience, and I have already told you that what you thought was debunked is just a matter of Dunning-kruger having its claws way too deep in you for common sense to prevail. 

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13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And I have indicated to you that that your wonderful "magic wand of +20 inventiveness and +38 coding skill" is not a real thing and the ridiculous suggestion that you have made, to fix the problems you want to create, aren't anywhere near as good as you think they are. 

See if you can't find someone to explain the whole thing to you, because you seem to be missing one heck of a lot of the basic ideas you need to work with. Because frankly I'm out of patience, and I have already told you that what you thought was debunked is just a matter of Dunning-kruger having its claws way too deep in you for common sense to prevail. 

And yet whenever I ask you to engage me in a serious discussion about the merits of what I'm saying, you either start propping up straw men, spewing invectives, or simply ignore me. Again, several examples in this very thread. Your vehemence in rejecting an in-game market is matched only by your complete failure to ever provide a single reason why item supply in an in-game market couldn't be artificially limited.

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1 hour ago, seprent said:

Ok when you open the chat window and go to trade chat there is a magnifying glass in the top left click it and will open a box for you to filter things out put in everything you want if includes term is check with a green check mark it means it will show you everything that used that word 

For instance trade chat goes a mile a minute with WTS offers but filter for WTB with includes term checked it will show you only things that have WTB somewhere in them drastically cutting down trade chat speed getting more specific will slow it more but help narrow down what you were wanting to buy or sell 
EX: WTB + includes term = Show all WTB offers WTB + Chroma prime set + includes term = People only looking to buy chroma prime set 

Better to just leave out the WTB/WTS in my experience. It gives a clearer picture of what prices people are asking so that sellers can make better offers. 

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