Arcane Helmet Disadvantages

[MikeVodka]

The entirety of this thread basically boils down to some guy forgetting that corrupted mods exist.

[Oreades]

The only way I'd be cool with the Arcane helmets being converted into something that takes up an arcane slot is IF said arcanes where also re-added to the games drop tables. 

[SneakyErvin]

Just to add a little more info here regarding the drawbacks of the helmet stats. 

To put it into perspective how little it actually impacts anything lets look at it like this.

Frost's helmet with 25% armor and -5% health really results in barely no health lost at all. If you were to slot vitality along with that helm it would simply result in Frost getting 435% instead of 440% health really. At max rank that would result in him getting 735 health instead of 740. With no mods but the helmet equipped he'd end up at 295hp instead of 300hp.

And this all is also why physique aura sucks so hard.

 

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

I remember. One can dream though 😪 it's pretty much a minor/QoL thing, but I'd rather they keep doing what they're doing while slowly updating the older parts of the game along the way etc.

This is feedback I had back when they were introducing slots and looking at Arcane stats:

Spoiler

Arcane helmets are retired cosmetics that gave stat increases as well as a drawback. These were removed for being tied to cosmetics and limiting player fashion. My concept is to model the Arcane helmets that we have, and having a system similar to Riven Mods. BUT WAIT!! I am comparing them to rivens in the nature of rolling, NOT the randomized stat values.

My example would be like this: I obtain an empty Arcane Helmet Enhancement Blueprint from Quill Onkko. I then defeat a new Eidolon and get some sort of gem. The gem then unlocks my Arcane Enhancement. I would get, say an "Arcane Excalibur Enhancement". This Enhancement gives me a roll of +15% Power Strength and -5% Armor (Old Pendragon Helmet stats). I can lock the specific Warframe, positive stat, or negative stat using Eidolon Cores. If I roll a Warframe I enjoy, such as Nova, I can lock this Enhancement to only roll the positive and negative stats. Likewise, if I get +15% Duration and -5% Wall Latch for Loki, but I would rather use that on my Trinity, I could lock the positive and negative stats, and roll until I get Trinity.

All current and future Warframes would be eligible for rolling. 

Statistics rolled would be constant. Rolling +10% Power Duration and -10% Power Duration would NEVER change. This creates diverse niches. Ex: +Range and -Duration on Mag built for Crush.

This system would not be out of hand like Rivens because the player can decide what they want and grind with meaning. Players who had existing Arcane Helmets would receive a Warframe Helmet Enhancement associated with the stats of the original helmet. These would be trade-able.

This system would turn Arcane Helmets into an enhancement, not a cosmetic like we have now. All enhancements throughout my post would fit into an Arcane Slot, not tied to Helmets or Syandanas.

Possible Enhancements (Positive)
+ Power Strength (15%)
+ Power Duration (15%)
+ Power Range (25%)
+ Power Efficiency (20%)
+ Base Energy Capacity (50 Energy)
+ Base Armor (200 Armor)
+ Base Health (150 Health)
+ Movement Speed (0.2)(see Conclave mods)
Possible Drawbacks (Negative)
- Power Strength (15%)
- Power Duration (15%)
- Power Range (15%)
- Power Efficiency (15%)
- Base Energy Capacity (30 Energy)
- Base Armor (25 Armor)
- Base Health (50 Health)
- Sprint Speed (5%)
- Bullet Jump Velocity (10%)
- Aim Glide and Wall Latch Duration (10%)

To be honest it would have been nice for them to atleast mesh an old mechanic that remains to be better fit into the newer system. However, I completely understand why they left them as they were.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

De could have easily turned legacy arcanes into corrputed arcanes and made them available for everyone long ago. There wouldn't even have been an issue with converting them. You got a legacy arcane helmet? It turns into a rank 3 corrputed arcane with the same stats.

[mudbouggin]

2 hours ago, MikeVodka said:

The entirety of this thread basically boils down to some guy forgetting that corrupted mods exist.

nothing to do with corrupted mods?

[mudbouggin]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just to add a little more info here regarding the drawbacks of the helmet stats. 

To put it into perspective how little it actually impacts anything lets look at it like this.

Frost's helmet with 25% armor and -5% health really results in barely no health lost at all. If you were to slot vitality along with that helm it would simply result in Frost getting 435% instead of 440% health really. At max rank that would result in him getting 735 health instead of 740. With no mods but the helmet equipped he'd end up at 295hp instead of 300hp.

And this all is also why physique aura sucks so hard.

 

You do understand that 5% health doesnt equal 5 hp right?

[mudbouggin]

53 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

De could have easily turned legacy arcanes into corrputed arcanes and made them available for everyone long ago. There wouldn't even have been an issue with converting them. You got a legacy arcane helmet? It turns into a rank 3 corrputed arcane with the same stats.

This is a productive comment (unlike the others just hating) and I love the idea! 

 

Also it would make a lot more sense that an actual arcane would take the slot up as opposed to an Appearance item which is what they are classified as.

Edited October 17, 2019 by mudbouggin

[Nichivo]

2 hours ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

De could have easily turned legacy arcanes into corrputed arcanes and made them available for everyone long ago. There wouldn't even have been an issue with converting them. You got a legacy arcane helmet? It turns into a rank 3 corrputed arcane with the same stats.

I mentioned that back when they were removed and also mentioned it yesterday in this thread Endgame Suggestions and thoughts. I am still surprised it was not resolved that way.

[Hypernaut1]

They should convert them to a purely cosmetic item with arcane effects

Edited October 17, 2019 by Hypernaut1

[schilds]

DE decided, some time after introducing the helmets, that they do not want what is essentially another mod slot for certain modifiers the helmets provide (hint: power strength, efficiency, range, and duration). That's why we're unlikely to see them re-introduced in another form (unless they change their minds). DE's preference seems to be to remove them entirely. Keeping them in their current limited form is the compromise DE is prepared to make with those who invested in them.

In other words, talking about QoL or some kind of bonus is to mistake the basis for DEs decision. if you want them to change their decision, you need to make a case for what is essentially an extra mod slot. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, mudbouggin said:

You do understand that 5% health doesnt equal 5 hp right?

Yes it does in the example I used. If the base health was 200 then it would have equaled 10HP. For someone like Inaros with a base health of 500 it equals 25HP.

Frost has 100 base HP, that means a 5% reduction in max HP = 5 HP. Which for a rank 30 Frost means that he ends up at 295 HP, since at rank 30 he gets a 200% bonus to his 100 base health. With the specific helmet that means he gets a 195% bonus to his base 100 HP. That is how health percentage modifiers work in WF.

edit: To make it even more clear. If you have Vitality, Physique Aura and the natural 200% rank 30 HP increase a frame with an arcane helmet that reduces max HP by 5% would mean you'd get a max health increase of 440+90+200-5 = 725. Which for someone like Frost would add up to 100x8.25, or simply 825 HP.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

8 hours ago, Zilchy said:

Quite a few of them, I'm not gonna sit here and point out each and every one cos it's really not rocket science. For example, I wasnt aware losing 5% of your shields in exchange for 15% pwr str on Frost is seen as a "negative".. By that logic you'd better not use any corrupt mods on your warframes anymore, clearly they're putting you at a disadvantage.

Exactly, people don't seem to get that a lot of the disadvantages on arcane helmets are negligible to meaningless.  Frost doesn't care about having those shields at all, when you're just getting a higher amount of armor off of icy avalanche for giving up shields.  Only reason I wouldn't use that helmet on frost right now is because I like running double energize on him due to his poor energy pool and high energy demands with 45% efficiency.  

They aren't going to give yet another advantage to arcane helmets when, frankly, a lot of people on console don't have them namely xbox one you can't find an arcane rhino vanguard helmet to save your life and I think I know of one in existence on the platform and the guy is asking for a crazy amount of plat for it if he were to sell it you'd think 20K platinum for a perfect roll kohm riven to be cheap as hell.  Realistically they should just rerelease the arcane helmets so everyone has access to them on all platforms but I doubt that happens because it's DE/they probably forgot they exist by now.  

[AuroraSonicBoom]

11 hours ago, schilds said:

 DE's preference seems to be to remove them entirely. Keeping them in their current limited form is the compromise DE is prepared to make with those who invested in them.

That's not quite true. Back when the arcane debate was hot, there were two main arguments raised by the players who wanted them gone. One was that they didn't want stats tied to cosmetics anymore, and the other was that some of the arcanes were completely negating a frame's main drawback at virtually no penalty(Vanguard is most guilty of that). DE stated that their main reason they got rid of them was because of the cosmetic argument, which at the time was the lesser of the two arguments brought fourth. So for them not taking away the existing ones under - yes, the old adage of respecting player investments - didn't go over well.

Either way, DE's main reason for grandfathering them was the cosmetic argument, not any balance issues. I wish it had been, but given how they've shown to care about balance over the years - even though they got a tiny bit better with rivens - I shouldn't have been surprised.

Nothing stops them from rebalancing some of the more broken arcanes as they make them available for everyone either. It'd be a good opportunity to do that, actually.

[mudbouggin]

On 2019-10-17 at 6:08 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Yes it does in the example I used. If the base health was 200 then it would have equaled 10HP. For someone like Inaros with a base health of 500 it equals 25HP.

Frost has 100 base HP, that means a 5% reduction in max HP = 5 HP. Which for a rank 30 Frost means that he ends up at 295 HP, since at rank 30 he gets a 200% bonus to his 100 base health. With the specific helmet that means he gets a 195% bonus to his base 100 HP. That is how health percentage modifiers work in WF.

edit: To make it even more clear. If you have Vitality, Physique Aura and the natural 200% rank 30 HP increase a frame with an arcane helmet that reduces max HP by 5% would mean you'd get a max health increase of 440+90+200-5 = 725. Which for someone like Frost would add up to 100x8.25, or simply 825 HP.

 

 

but its not how it works lol

[DeMonkey]

33 minutes ago, mudbouggin said:

but its not how it works lol

Can you elaborate on how Sneaky is wrong? Perhaps by providing some math, as well as screenshots to back it up?

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, mudbouggin said:

but its not how it works lol

It is exactly how it works. It takes like 10 seconds to read up on it and then cross-reference it in game using a basic calculator or an app on your phone/computer.

Frame health never actually increases beyond the initial base health. The increase we see comes from a simple level based additive percentage buff which you can visually see in the corner just right of the stat pane. It works exactly the same as all other health modifiers such as vitality or one of the several helmets and physique aura.

All frame health is based around additive percentage numbers outside of the base health that is static and determined at rank 1.

edit: I'm also impressed that it took you about 5 days to answer and with a faulty disagreement at that. You'd think 5 days would be enough to check up on such simple basic game mechanics when you obviously think you have such vast knowledge about the game.

Edited October 23, 2019 by SneakyErvin