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birdobash

The energy system is quite outdated

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Ever since the release of focus schools and the energizing dash operator ability, energy has been almost a null factor in a multitude of situations. In most missions, energy will never be spent fast enough to go under 60% max energy, OR energy leeching type enemies take away all your energy without you realizing leaving you with 0 energy.

No matter the situation, you either have maxed out energy and it becomes a non-factor, or you have situations where energy gets stuck at 0 completely out of your control. In either situation energy management doesn't feel real or important as you either can spam abilities thoughtlessly or you have nothing, the system becomes feast or famine, not it's supposed role in the game which is to incentivize good resource management. 

We can see side effects of this problem in newer frames, where many have secondary resources besides energy to replace that resource management mechanic, such as Baruuks gauge and Gauss's gauge.

Edited by birdobash
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If I'm not mistaken, someone on one of the TennoCon panels this year was asked what their favorite Focus school is and someone in the crowd yelled "don't say Zenurik." Which leads me to believe that there's a distinct distaste about that school among at least a subset of players. Even without Energizing Dash, though, energy can still be made a non-issue with people sharing Energy Pizzas, Dethcube's Energy Generator precept, Trinity's Energy Vampire. Probably other things I'm not thinking of. Isn't there an energy regenerating Arcane too?

Not sure what to do about that, though. How would you incentivize good energy management? Some people prefer to lay waste with Warframe powers, others would rather use weapons. Personally, I kinda like the organic feel and feedback of weapon usage over nuking whole rooms, but I guess it just comes down to preference.

In regard to Energy Leech Eximus, though, I'd much rather there were more visual or audio feedback so we can counter it, rather than getting rid of them like I think some people want. 

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The replenishment for energy in a power fantasy will exist forever. Way before Zenurik, Greedy Mag accomplished this role. After that nerf it was EV Trinity, and now we have Zenurik, Arcane Energize, Harrow, Sharpshooter, etc....

I don't consider the energy system as outdated and broken. It's a means to control Warframes to some degree without cool downs or such.

Keeping energy up through various means is by definition good management. 🙂 

Edited by Voltage
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Honestly I think DE should consider moving over to secondary energy mechanics as a whole. I used to play Marvel Heroes, in that game every single hero had the same type of "mana". Later on Gaz changed that up on a few new heroes and gave them unique resources, this later on spread to more and more heroes which turned out marvelous to say the least. I think something similar would be possible here. Something similar to Nidus, where 1 and 2 builds the resource and 3 and 4 uses it in one way or another.

Possibly have #1 as a generic resource builder with a lower gain and #2 being a short cooldown based generator that builds significantly more than #1.

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Personally i quite enjoyed Titanfall 2 system.   No energy at all....Each ability has one or multiple "charges". Each "charge" regenerates over time.   So you can spend em all to burst....or you can manage em for relatively sustained casting.  It was decent.

Abilities that regenerate energy now can just shorten cooldown....or completely reset it (these abilities will also have cooldown so there will be no spam anyways).

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18 minutes ago, (PS4)cardinalphoenix said:

In regard to Energy Leech Eximus, though, I'd much rather there were more visual or audio feedback so we can counter it, rather than getting rid of them like I think some people want. 

Pretty much this. The reason people dislike the energy drain eximus is that they sneak up on you and if you're not paying attention to your energy, you won't realize there's one nearby until you discover you can't cast abilities.

They should be given a subtle bubble around them, like outlines on the surfaces of objects to show when you're in their field.

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1 minute ago, Kainosh said:

Personally i quite enjoyed Titanfall 2 system.   No energy at all....Each ability has one or multiple "charges". Each "charge" regenerates over time.   So you can spend em all to burst....or you can manage em for relatively sustained casting.  It was decent.

Abilities that regenerate energy now can just shorten cooldown....or completely reset it (these abilities will also have cooldown so there will be no spam anyways).

That feels like the direction a lot of developers are going, just giving everything cool downs as opposed to a system where energy/mana is a pool you pull from, which just hearkens back to, like, D&D days and older videos and stuff.

Can be done well, but it runs the risk of being a little over simplified in practice, from what I've seen.

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Considering all the alternative ways DE have added to the game to 'replace' lost energy there isn't a reason to run zenurik in most cases, it sure doesn't need another 'change'....

The fact most people still do means a few things (at least to me):

  • one there is an issue with having enough energy for abilities (not everyone runs efficient builds)
  • people want to have energy to use said abilities as much as they want, so cooldowns wouldn't be appreciated as an alternative
  • the alternatives DE have added for energy aren't good enough to replace zenurik
  • the other focus schools don't have enough of a reason to use over zenurik or and this is a highly possible reason, players just don't have another option....the focus grind isn't exactly fun, for any real sort of progress you need to resort to meta farming focus etc.   Switching schools is still a bit of pain as well, I'd use more schools if they were linked to the frame mod page (and stored) instead of the arsenal page. 
Edited by LSG501
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11 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The replenishment for energy in a power fantasy will exist forever. Way before Zenurik, Greedy Mag accomplished this role. After that nerf it was EV Trinity, and now we have Zenurik, Arcane Energize, Harrow, Sharpshooter, etc....

I don't consider the energy system as outdated and broken. It's a means to control Warframes to some degree without cool downs or such.

Keeping energy up through various means is by definition good management. 🙂 

I'd say it's not entirely the system itself - it's what's working on the system. The current system is great for smaller abilities - like Slash Dash, Whipclaw, even Wisp's Resovoirs. It provides an upper limit but is loose enough to very usable. In those scenarios, the Energy system is great! 

The problem shows up when you realise that the big guns - the big area of effect powers or the never-die powers like Invisibility also run on this and are just as spammable, with nothing else actually limiting this, ironically having a knock-on effect to the powers that do benefit. Think of it this way: You wouldn't give a rocket launcher the same ammo economy as a pistol, would you? Or a Sniper and a Minigun? They have different needs and more importantly, different power levels. But that's kind of what we do in Warframe: looking at Volt, his 1 and 4 are functionally running on the same ammo economy.

Back in ye olde days, this would be balanced by scarcity of energy: Shock is more usable since you can use it four times for every one Discharge. But now that Energy is a non-issue for the most part, Discharge is strictly a better option, and more than that, is very clearly designed to have much more restrictions than it actually does. It's a screen nuke (and beyond), and those things are usually pretty rare in most games - see also DOOM, which generally has the BFG ammo be very rare.

 

So basically, it's a good system that has things that shouldn't be running on it attached.

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Just like with many games, less energy just means: use energy, use melee until energy fills back up, use energy, use melee until energy fills back up. With some kiting added in to avoid damage. I didnt even add using long range and short range guns.

 

This game already has a pretty awesome melee system to the point where some people dont even need to use energy that much anyway.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Just like with many games, less energy just means: use energy, use melee until energy fills back up, use energy, use melee until energy fills back up. With some kiting added in to avoid damage. I didnt even add using long range and short range guns.

 

This game already has a pretty awesome melee system to the point where some people dont even need to use energy that much anyway.

I was gonna say, this discussion seems to have opened up the aspect of energy pools as an option. Plenty of builds don't require a ton of energy, so an Energy Leech isn't gonna do a ton to hurt that. Meanwhile, other builds will be severely hindered by that, so they need to be more wary of it.

Seems to depend on what type of build you like playing with.

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Yeah, this is just one of many things in desperate need of an overhaul. Too bad DE is too busy with all their big shiny new updates instead.

Way back in the earliest days of Warframe, the only way to get energy was from the random item drops. This fit with the overall slower and more tactical nature of the game at that point. But over time, they have added so many other ways to gain energy that it has basically become pointless to even have the system at all.

I found it way more fun when I actually had to pay attention to my energy. Calculating how many times I could cast each ability, since getting more energy was never reliable. But now, any time I can't cast an ability because I am out of energy, it feels more like the game is broken than an intentional limitation.

This is also one of the main things that has created the current "press 4 to blow up the universe" meta that has gotten so incredibly stale. Why not drop a nuke on every single enemy you encounter? You have infinite of them after all. But that gets boring really fast. Most of the engaging gameplay in games like this comes from the limitations imposed on the players. So when you remove those limitations, it gets dull. It also makes it much harder to both balance and differentiate each individual frame. There are only so many ways you can instantly kill everything.

Adding cooldowns to abilities would probably help a lot, since that's how pretty much every single other ability based game does it. But bringing back the more limited "ammo" management would also help quite a bit. I wouldn't mind having many of the older frames get their own unique resource as well.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

If you personally dont want more energy, you can lower your efficiency. Why care about what others are doing?

Because it isn't fun when one player is running around dropping infinite nukes on everything, and you are struggling to even cast a single fireball. This is why DE can't just hide behind the "just weaken yourself" excuse. If Warframe was just a single player game, this would be fine. You can play however you want when you're alone. But when you are playing with other people, they will also be playing how they want. And if they went full nuke and you didn't? Have fun trying to keep up.

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2 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Way back in the earliest days of Warframe, the only way to get energy was from the random item drops. This fit with the overall slower and more tactical nature of the game at that point. But over time, they have added so many other ways to gain energy that it has basically become pointless to even have the system at all.

I found it way more fun when I actually had to pay attention to my energy. Calculating how many times I could cast each ability, since getting more energy was never reliable. But now, any time I can't cast an ability because I am out of energy, it feels more like the game is broken than an intentional limitation.

Adding cooldowns to abilities would probably help a lot, since that's how pretty much every single other ability based game does it. But bringing back the more limited "ammo" management would also help quite a bit. I wouldn't mind having many of the older frames get their own unique resource as well.

If Warframe was just a single player game, this would be fine. You can play however you want when you're alone. But when you are playing with other people, they will also be playing how they want. And if they went full nuke and you didn't? Have fun trying to keep up.

To be fair, back when Warframe was "more tactical," it also had a Stamina bar. But, as I understand it, they removed that because, like you said about energy...running out felt more like a broken hinderance than something to manage.

That said, I can agree with the problem of making every frame have a nuke ability, I'm often annoyed by that too. I think they're working on that somehow, like maybe trying to give that a cool down, but leave energy for everything else, don't quote me, I don't know, probably just said something in passing on some Devstream. I would be in favor of nuke cool downs, though, possibly even buffing them hugely, but adding a team cool down, so only one person could use theirs at a time, giving other people chances to use theirs in succession, thus prompting communication or coordination to use specific ones before others. It'd require some pretty serious overhauling to do that, though, and a lot of players would be pissed at having their "efficiency" at killing everything in the universe hindered.

If keeping up with other players is the problem, though, I'd attempt to redirect discussion toward more ways to find groups to play with. You and I might want to play more tactically, while others want to compete to see who nukes everything the quickest. Better matchmaking, or game lobbies would help a ton with that, devs would have more time to iterate and everyone can play how they want, with who they want.

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23 minutes ago, Teljaxx said:

Yeah, this is just one of many things in desperate need of an overhaul. Too bad DE is too busy with all their big shiny new updates instead.

Way back in the earliest days of Warframe, the only way to get energy was from the random item drops. This fit with the overall slower and more tactical nature of the game at that point. But over time, they have added so many other ways to gain energy that it has basically become pointless to even have the system at all.

I found it way more fun when I actually had to pay attention to my energy. Calculating how many times I could cast each ability, since getting more energy was never reliable. But now, any time I can't cast an ability because I am out of energy, it feels more like the game is broken than an intentional limitation.

This is also one of the main things that has created the current "press 4 to blow up the universe" meta that has gotten so incredibly stale. Why not drop a nuke on every single enemy you encounter? You have infinite of them after all. But that gets boring really fast. Most of the engaging gameplay in games like this comes from the limitations imposed on the players. So when you remove those limitations, it gets dull. It also makes it much harder to both balance and differentiate each individual frame. There are only so many ways you can instantly kill everything.

Adding cooldowns to abilities would probably help a lot, since that's how pretty much every single other ability based game does it. But bringing back the more limited "ammo" management would also help quite a bit. I wouldn't mind having many of the older frames get their own unique resource as well.

Because it isn't fun when one player is running around dropping infinite nukes on everything, and you are struggling to even cast a single fireball. This is why DE can't just hide behind the "just weaken yourself" excuse. If Warframe was just a single player game, this would be fine. You can play however you want when you're alone. But when you are playing with other people, they will also be playing how they want. And if they went full nuke and you didn't? Have fun trying to keep up.

So energy isn't the actual issue, then. You just want nukes toned down.

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

So energy isn't the actual issue, then. You just want nukes toned down.

I think it is worse than that...he wants everyone to play the game he wants.

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Just now, Chappie1975 said:

I think it is worse than that...he wants everyone to play the game he wants.

Yea exactly. He wants nukes to play solo? Why cant he play solo? He can take his time killing everything no problem. He can even tailor his energy needs how he wants. He wont have to worry about accidentally running into anyone's energy circle or pads.

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No, it's really not. That would be the cooldown system, simply because of how cheap and overused it is. Cooldowns are everywhere: Titanfall, Overwatch, Destiny, Borderlands, Doom - you name it.

They are quite a crude mechanic though. Like the game uses a manual switch to cut you off your powers.

Warframe on the other hand stepped in a different direction - it took the mana system from RPGs and implemented it in a shooter - a decision clever enough to at least be respected.

The implementation though is another story. I'm personally ok with it. The only two things I distaste are energy pizzas, which shouldn't be added to begin with as they are the most unimaginative way of converting your resourse pile into energy; and Energizing Dash being exclusive to Zenurik for obvious reasons.

Other than that energy system is very flexible and allows for much more build diversity than any other I can think of.

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There are many other ways to never run out of energy without using Zenurik, it's just that Zenurik requires the least in-mission effort to use.

But the Zenurik issue itself isn't so much that infinite free energy is "good" but that for most people it's the only good focus tree. Even for people who do find use in other trees it still remains that Zenurik is useful in every single part of the game while others often have niche uses at best.

Really if Zenurik is an issue to energy economy then so is Energize, Rage, and energy restores. Also prior to the introduction of arcanes and rage Trinity has always been a thing and used to be the staple meta frame for ALL content because of EV.

 

But when it comes down to it DE has been slowly introducing methods to combat the overflowing ability spam; nullifier units and ability resistant/immune enemies. If the games entire damage, mod, and general balancing never gets fixed then we'll only see more enemies made to counter these overpowered aspects of our builds.

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Not sure if it would fix anything, but maybe making energy efficiency actually work like efficiency would do something about it.

200% efficiency means you do 2 things at the cost of 1. It doesn't mean -100% cost.

Or maybe they could at least change the mod description to -% energy cost.

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16 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

Not sure if it would fix anything, but maybe making energy efficiency actually work like efficiency would do something about it.

200% efficiency means you do 2 things at the cost of 1. It doesn't mean -100% cost.

Or maybe they could at least change the mod description to -% energy cost.

Lets be honest DE needs to fix the 'terminology' of a LOT of mods, we have some mods which are straight up additive, some are actually percentile buffs and then some are percentile increase but from the base stats not the modified stats and essentially it's pot luck until you try them which is which.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Yea exactly. He wants nukes to play solo? Why cant he play solo? He can take his time killing everything no problem. He can even tailor his energy needs how he wants. He wont have to worry about accidentally running into anyone's energy circle or pads.

Why can't the nukes? That argument is limited and doesn't mean much, if anything at all. So instead of whining that they have an opinion, lets discuss the point, because at the end of the day that's what everyone's going to get. After all, isn't that the whole endpoint of the 'You just want the game that best matches your playstyle' argument - that everyone must be willing to compromise?

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2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

regenerates over time

Cooldowns.

Some situations and frames, I can see that being perfectly fine.
Other frames, the unique energy systems are great,
some cases the classic energy works best..

The changes they've been making to frames over time seem to favor
a system that is more about managing your skills, and less arbitrary energy costs.

Cooldowns or systems like it can't be the only answer, though.
For instance, Chroma's 1. ...That isn't a great ability, but if it were, a cooldown would not work out on that as-is.
UIts for Equinox, Excal, Wukong, Mesa... all would have to change pretty dramatically.
There may be some very elegant ways to work those into the system you propose.
Currently though, it wouldn't mesh well with a bunch of the abilities, yet.
Some cases it would for sure.

UItimately, it seems many frames will have more unique systems, with some likely trying that angle.
It would be neat to have a frame that fits for the players that are familiar and comfortable with cooldowns or counter stacks.
Likewise, the energy system and unique meters speak to their own crowds as well.
 

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2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

there will be no spam

You take the spam out of my Hydroid's 1, and we're gonna have words.

Some players hardly cast at all, some like myself near Constant.
A cooldown system across the board shuts out things I like best.

They'd also have to rebalance the pacing and groupings of enemies,
which... Yikes. Let's not make more systems for DE to balance. o_O
..they got enough of that on their plate for sure.

Not saying it couldn't be done..
I for one, though.. will take profuse amounts of energy management systems
over a hard limited stack of cooldowns.
Same reason I never got into MMOs, personally.
Cooldowns felt wrong to me after having played Diablo 2 so long.

However, that's not to say Titanfall's system isn't more comfortable than I'd expect,
since I have never used it and wouldn't know.
..but I do cringe slightly at the thought of Everything being cooldowns.
..and you know DE, before long we'd have an enemy that
spawns everywhere and just eats your stacks for breakfast. (lookin' at you, Nullis..)

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2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Pretty much this. The reason people dislike the energy drain eximus is that they sneak up on you and if you're not paying attention to your energy, you won't realize there's one nearby until you discover you can't cast abilities.

They should be given a subtle bubble around them, like outlines on the surfaces of objects to show when you're in their field.

Or just an icon showing you are losing energy.

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