Jump to content
birdobash

The energy system is quite outdated

Recommended Posts

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Why can't the nukes? That argument is limited and doesn't mean much, if anything at all. So instead of whining that they have an opinion, lets discuss the point, because at the end of the day that's what everyone's going to get. After all, isn't that the whole endpoint of the 'You just want the game that best matches your playstyle' argument - that everyone must be willing to compromise?

Tell the other nuke players to compromise. I dont really get to kill anything, either, but I'm there for the loot. I appreciate the nukes: after a hard day of button smashing it's a good change of pace to have some elitist run around and do it for me lol. 

If I'm in a less than efficient group, I'll gently nuke a few times so we dont get overwhelmed by enemies. So yes, I feel it out and compromise. 

But you're talking to 1 out of how many people that constantly spam pub match eso, for example. They're not all gonna be on the forums, so I guess I could just start telling random people online that have put way more time and money into the game to stop killing so fast, and I'm sure I'll be told to shove it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not think there is much issue with energy system. I very rarely play a build and think cuz I spam a skill it is "over powered."  If you want to spam skills you need efficiency anyway, so it is not ungated. 

Also, contrary to the believe, some frames do not need so much energy and others can just utilize hunter's adrenaline/rage and can even not use Zenurik. I play a lot of Valkyr and Wukong and I use Naramon. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I do not think there is much issue with energy system. I very rarely play a build and think cuz I spam a skill it is "over powered."  If you want to spam skills you need efficiency anyway, so it is not ungated. 

Also, contrary to the believe, some frames do not need so much energy and others can just utilize hunter's adrenaline/rage and can even not use Zenurik. I play a lot of Valkyr and Wukong and I use Naramon. 

It's because there isn't an issue. The OP doesn't wanna deal with nuke frames, so he wants to prevent everyone from having energy so he can kill stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Tell the other nuke players to compromise. I dont really get to kill anything, either, but I'm there for the loot. I appreciate the nukes: after a hard day of button smashing it's a good change of pace to have some elitist run around and do it for me lol. 

If I'm in a less than efficient group, I'll gently nuke a few times so we dont get overwhelmed by enemies. So yes, I feel it out and compromise. 

But you're talking to 1 out of how many people that constantly spam pub match eso, for example. They're not all gonna be on the forums, so I guess I could just start telling random people online that have put way more time and money into the game to stop killing so fast, and I'm sure I'll be told to shove it.

Just because something has a positive effect short-term doesn't mean it's healthy.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Voltage said:

The replenishment for energy in a power fantasy will exist forever. Way before Zenurik, Greedy Mag accomplished this role. After that nerf it was EV Trinity, and now we have Zenurik, Arcane Energize, Harrow, Sharpshooter, etc....

I don't consider the energy system as outdated and broken. It's a means to control Warframes to some degree without cool downs or such.

Keeping energy up through various means is by definition good management. 🙂 

This. I like it the way it is.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My issue with the energy economy is that in higher level missions, you literally have to constantly spam abilities to not die. There’s no way to thoughtfully manage energy in these scenarios. You just keep casting that one ability over and over and hope that you can regen energy faster than it is consumed. If you can, then the game can become trivial. If you can’t, you die. It’s like every other aspect of Warframe’s difficulty spectrum: it exists only in extremes. It’s either too hard, or too easy. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know. I guess what I would do is take advantage of that new Robocop hand spike that's coming and allow players to shove it into hacking panels in the environments to power up or into unaware enemies even perhaps allowing a frame to refill their energy by shooting explosive barrels...on the downside you do yourself damage, but on the up side you fill a energy bar if you're that desperate...

 

There's lots of ways one could go on sources of energy where energy management and acquisition was a little more stable..It's just is De willing to do so..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hard agree... I think they should remove all energy recharging... give a base energy regen like 1/s for all frame and killing a enemy with weapon would give 5 energy to all nearby frames... set that as base and balance the game around it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Darklord_Tou said:

Hard agree... I think they should remove all energy recharging... give a base energy regen like 1/s for all frame and killing a enemy with weapon would give 5 energy to all nearby frames... set that as base and balance the game around it.

So basically primed reach, Condition Overload, and blood rush everything. Gotcha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Just because something has a positive effect short-term doesn't mean it's healthy.

Exercise has positive short-term effect (endorphins) and is healthy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Pretty much this. The reason people dislike the energy drain eximus is that they sneak up on you and if you're not paying attention to your energy, you won't realize there's one nearby until you discover you can't cast abilities.

They should be given a subtle bubble around them, like outlines on the surfaces of objects to show when you're in their field.

Or they're on the other side of a wall. Or they're behind like 15 other enemies protected by an arbitration drone and by the time you kill the drone and them your energy is already at zero. Or they're above you. Or they're below you.

 

FWIW I personally only find it to reach the level of "okay this is just silly" in high level (150+) arbitration missions but still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Darklord_Tou said:

Hard agree... I think they should remove all energy recharging... give a base energy regen like 1/s for all frame and killing a enemy with weapon would give 5 energy to all nearby frames... set that as base and balance the game around it.

How about no.

Screwing with energy sustain ability would make a lot of frames suddenly either much more difficult to use or not even viable. This would make the "meta" more restrictive, not less.

 

I swear I dont understand the nerf herder mentality on this one.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LSG501 said:

the other focus schools don't have enough of a reason to use over zenurik or and this is a highly possible reason, players just don't have another option....the focus grind isn't exactly fun, for any real sort of progress you need to resort to meta farming focus etc.   Switching schools is still a bit of pain as well, I'd use more schools if they were linked to the frame mod page (and stored) instead of the arsenal page. 

Yes they do.

Don't get me wrong, on certain power-focused builds, zenurik is the only way to go.

But there are other kinds of builds and the other schools do have uses. Eidolon hunts are a classic example of this - it's probably never wise to run zenurik on an eidolon bounty, but there are plenty of other examples, also.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Exercise has positive short-term effect (endorphins) and is healthy.

Except what you're describing isn't exercise is it? In fact it's the opposite.

What you're describing is, in effect, leeching. Sitting back whilst someone else does the work. This is rewarded by virtue of the fact your chances of success for doing so are so high due to the unprecedented amount of power. And leeching isn't good for a co-op game. It's a toxic behaviour - you're basically profiting off of someone else for free. One of the many issues that result from free nuking.

There's nothing wrong with screen-clearing abilities, but they shouldn't have the sustainability of a smaller-scale damage ability. That's a big contributing factor of the 'one man 4-person squad' problem.

41 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

How about no.

Screwing with energy sustain ability would make a lot of frames suddenly either much more difficult to use or not even viable. This would make the "meta" more restrictive, not less.

 

I swear I dont understand the nerf herder mentality on this one.

75% agree.

I do agree that by and large, the better energy sustainability is a good thing, and that coming down hard on it as a whole is misguided. A lot more Warframes recently have been designed around having a lot of energy, mostly by having weaker, more interactive powers. Compare original defy to modern defy - one was clearly supposed to work like a better quick thinking (using energy as a kind of second health bar), but due to the massive availability of energy - primarily, in this case, from Rage, it effectively just worked as immortality without an endpoint.

Now, however, the overall same functionality (harder to kill + healing) has been split over two abilities, being defy and cloud walker, both of which prevent attacking, meaning you can't just passively not die whilst pumping a target full of bullets standing still, giving Wukong a little more risk/reward (do I heal up now or do I get a few more shots out?). Simply put, old defy was designed with the idea that energy was its limiting factor - modern Defy/Cloudwalker has skill be its limiting factor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, (PS4)cardinalphoenix said:

If I'm not mistaken, someone on one of the TennoCon panels this year was asked what their favorite Focus school is and someone in the crowd yelled "don't say Zenurik." Which leads me to believe that there's a distinct distaste about that school among at least a subset of players

They said that because they didn’t want Zenurik nerfed. Because DE nerfs the things we enjoy and like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To make energy not plentiful at this point means nerfing harrow, trinity, arcane energize, zenurik, and basically anything else that gives energy because with an EV trinity in your squad you won't run out of energy, ever.  Harrow with a lot of power strength can generate a lot of energy in a very short amount of time via headshots or mass killing of enemies with a weapon like zenistar.  Arcane energize is the best piece of gear in the game that people have spent thousands on for sets of 10, nerfing it pisses off a lot of people.  Zenurik is used all the time, if energy ability gets nerfed it's almost useless just like most focus schools actually outside like naramon giving you combo duration and madurai for tricaps.  Vazarin does have the fast pickup option as well.  Unairu is just sad and alone.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, ant99999 said:

No, it's really not. That would be the cooldown system, simply because of how cheap and overused it is. Cooldowns are everywhere: Titanfall, Overwatch, Destiny, Borderlands, Doom - you name it.

They are quite a crude mechanic though. Like the game uses a manual switch to cut you off your powers.

Warframe on the other hand stepped in a different direction - it took the mana system from RPGs and implemented it in a shooter - a decision clever enough to at least be respected.

The implementation though is another story. I'm personally ok with it. The only two things I distaste are energy pizzas, which shouldn't be added to begin with as they are the most unimaginative way of converting your resourse pile into energy; and Energizing Dash being exclusive to Zenurik for obvious reasons.

Other than that energy system is very flexible and allows for much more build diversity than any other I can think of.

To be fair, RPGs nowadays tend to have a system that combines mana/alternative resource + cooldowns. Sometimes it's a soft cooldown in which you still get to use your skills during the cooldown, but the effects of them are drastically reduced and mana/resource cost is higher.

Whether or not that would work for Warframe, i don't know at all. I think it would need extensive testing from DE + players perhaps, in all kinds of scenarios of the game, to get a feel of how it impacts mission flow, in both solo and team play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 минут назад, -YoRHa- сказал:

To be fair, RPGs nowadays tend to have a system that combines mana/alternative resource + cooldowns. Sometimes it's a soft cooldown in which you still get to use your skills during the cooldown, but the effects of them are drastically reduced and mana/resource cost is higher.

Fair enough. One of the systems I like is something like Path of Exile where mana has the leading role but more powerful skills still have cooldowns to prevent spamming (despite the game still being pretty much about spamming). What I also like is how health and mana are restored there using flasks that recharge on kill.

It's a complex subject if you ask me, but cooldowns shouldn't be the primary measure of power management.

Also I was thinking about the cooldowns we have in ESO. For some reason they feel off to me. Probably because they are specific to the gamemode and forced on abilities that otherwise work without them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What we are missing is the older meta variants of warframes. Back then the demand for energy was higher, especially for the old version of Valkyr with the regular channeling speed claws instead of the ones we have.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

Zenurik is used all the time, if energy ability gets nerfed it's almost useless just like most focus schools actually outside like naramon giving you combo duration and madurai for tricaps.  Vazarin does have the fast pickup option as well.  Unairu is just sad and alone.  

Part of the reason why Focus abilities aren't useful is because you can spam abilities constantly to achieve whatever effect you want on a greater level. Unairu can strip a good portion of armor, Zenurik can slow and shock enemies, Marudai has a small radial blind, Vazarin can heal and defend, Naramon can disarm and open enemies to finishers. All of these abilities are very useful considering that they are "free" once you've unlocked them. If you actually had the constraint on energy, you would be using all the different Focus abilities more often because they allow you to use smaller forms of certain abilities, allowing you to save your abilities for more dire scenarios. 

A good case example would be, would you spend Energy on Strangledome to defend an Excavator that only has 15 seconds left to go, knowing that it will take you a minute before you get back enough Energy to use it for the next Excavator. Or would you rather just pop out with Vazarin and shield it against the bulk of enemies?

Edited by RX-3DR
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It feels kinda old especially when compared to something like the fast an fluid movement or combat system we have. It´s like you are playing two different games.

I like the Diablo 3 approach with different ressources for each class type but more important very fast and consistent recovery. Not sure whether there is a lore aspect to energy management though but why don´t use warframes there operators void energy meter? From a "logical" point of view there should be several instances of scaling. The base value is determined by the energy pool provided from your operators and your warframe specific multiplier (e.g. caster are better at converting) while you can further increase it with mods.

Anyway the problem is they´d have to adjust all warframe abilities for a new system which is probably the main reason we won´t see something like this any time soon.

Edited by Arcira

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally cannot relate to energy being a non-issue. It does become an issue if you create your builds without efficiency and ways to regenerate in mind. If done correctly, energy isn´t an issue, which is great. Certain frames demand a much higher energy sustain than others though and it can make a huge difference in missions how you play or how efficient you even plan ahead, for example in defense missions.

 

I enjoy the "no cooldown" system. Cooldowns are a cheap way to limit the use and power of certain abilities and let´s be honest - if you ever played CD based games, you will agree that in most cases there never seems to be the right balance. Cooldowns are either too long, rendering an ability and the whole skill or build useless - or it´s not long enough to even notice it.

 

I think they made the right choice to NOT use cooldowns or charges but instead a "mana pool" that you can work with. If you go full power strength, paying no attention to efficiency, you´re out of energy in no time, and then even power siphon and zenurik won´t save you. And that´s a good thing in my opinion.

Edited by IamLoco
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Fleuria said:

Yes they do.

Don't get me wrong, on certain power-focused builds, zenurik is the only way to go.

But there are other kinds of builds and the other schools do have uses. Eidolon hunts are a classic example of this - it's probably never wise to run zenurik on an eidolon bounty, but there are plenty of other examples, also.

I've got all 5, not maxed but at a point where I'd be happy to run any and I disagree but it's your opinion.  I'm not on about the abilities that cross over for operator, they're kind of sensible to use if you can. 

Eidolon hunts use a different focus school for literally two reasons, energy getting wiped out and the higher 'single shot' damage output, the quicker revives are handy but when that got it's restrictions it's 'less useful' than it's old version, yeah higher damage is nice but it just makes it slightly longer before your weapons fall off at high level and it's not needed for normal content, bit of extra armor is fine but it still doesn't stop a frame getting one shot at the levels where it's most useful, low armour frames will still always be 'low armour'.  Combo counter being slightly slower I suppose is useful but melee is generally overpowered compared with other weapons so I wouldn't personally swap it for easier access to energy.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, LSG501 said:

the alternatives DE have added for energy aren't good enough to replace zenurik

This needs to be said more 

Zenurik is the most lasy way to get energy it's just unfair having no efficient alternatives 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how this game would play if all abilities had a set number of charges? Sort of like spells in D&D and Dark Souls.

I'm not advocating for that necessarily but it might be an easier way to balance things. I'm no game developer, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...