The energy system is quite outdated

[LSG501]

16 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I wonder how this game would play if all abilities had a set number of charges? Sort of like spells in D&D and Dark Souls.

I'm not advocating for that necessarily but it might be an easier way to balance things. I'm no game developer, though.

Try a frame that needs to 'unlock' it's 4th ability like gauss, nidus etc, that should give you an idea. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I think Energizing Dash, and it's predecessor, are the worst thing DE has ever added to Warframe.

Ideally, a more perfected secondary resource system would be the best replacement for the current energy economy. Have frames build up their resource through certain actions/abilities and consume them through others. It can create a more natural flow of gameplay without feeling forced like some of them do currently (even without secondary resources the existing energy economy creates just as much forced gameplay through energizing dash and pizzas, and syndicate weapons and rage). The perfected secondary resource system doesn't even have to rely exclusively on abilities. They can use any encouraged action to contribute, like weapon headshots or melee finishers or wallrunning, etc. Some weapons/abilities would probably be exempted from contribution though. For example, the benefit of Arca Plasmor is easy aoe damage so it obviously shouldn't contribute to being able to cast your nuke as well just because you happen to get 4 headshots with one projectile.

Either that or a cooldown system combined with a system like Onslaught: Spammable abilities within a time frame before they go on cooldown. 

[Teljaxx]

17 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

So energy isn't the actual issue, then. You just want nukes toned down.

Its not just nukes, all abilities should be more limited. The free spamming of nukes, invincibility, CC, and every other crazy power is one of the biggest contributors to how unengaging this game has become. And this isn't just about me. Just look at the constant stream of threads begging for DE to add any kind of challenge to the game, and you'll see I am not alone. And, most of the time, what these people are actually asking for is not specifically challenge, per se, but to simply make the game more engaging, because they have gotten tired of simply pushing one button to kill everything all the time.

Almost every game is about resource management in some form. Health, ammo, damage, mana, money, time, whatever. Dealing with the limited nature of those resources is what makes the game interesting, so when something removes those limits, the whole thing becomes less interesting. Take a look at the original Doom: A simple game, especially compared to Warframe, but still extremely fun. But if you always use cheatcodes, like godmode or infinite ammo, that fun won't last very long at all. Why? Because you have removed the primary resource limitations that make the game fun in the first place.

For example: One of the main things that makes using the BFG fun is its extremely limited ammo. It can nuke whole rooms, but only rarely. You have to be careful not to waste it, so that it isn't unavailable when you really need it. But with infinite ammo? You can beat the entire game by using one big gun, and you don't even have to aim. But that gets old really fast.

Currently, Warframe's energy system is the equivalent of an infinite ammo BFG; Boring.

18 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Yea exactly. He wants nukes to play solo? Why cant he play solo? He can take his time killing everything no problem. He can even tailor his energy needs how he wants. He wont have to worry about accidentally running into anyone's energy circle or pads.

As I already said, this excuse doesn't work because Warframe is, at its heart, a multiplayer game. If it was single player only, then this would be fine. I already play solo ~95% of the time, so that I can play how I want. But for those few times when I have to play with other people, I have to follow their nuke spam meta, or get left behind. It basically feels like I am being forced to use cheatcodes, just because everyone else is using cheatcodes. And it gets really boring, really fast.

Plus, if players have to avoid using whole sections of the game to avoid becoming overpowered, that is just plain bad game design.

[Hexsing]

I don't have an issue with nukes per say.  But I will admit they sort of bore me. I have Saryn, Equinox and Banshee who can nuke a floor.  But I barely play them.  With exception of a night Equinox.  I like the sleep. 

Energy is not really a hinderence to the frames I play.  Most of mine use CC or high duration or for Nekros Despoil.  

I see the argument on both sides though.  Certain frames should have nukes sure.  

I see the value in both. 

[Hexsing]

But I will say that when nukes literally trivialize the game play that there is an inherant issue with the game.  Considdering how robust healthwise Nukers can be. 

City of Heros was probably the only game where Nukers, CC and Tanks worked really well.  But that was both cool down based and energy pool based.  

Sure your nuker could decimate things and do it well.  But they needed the CC player to keep them safe while the tank kept people off the squishies. 

I mainly solo things now. 

[Otaku_Hyen]

The energy system as a whole is okay in regard there are pizzas, zenurik and also the mobs drops more likely energy instead of hp orbs. What would be nice to be refresh to add a moderate hp and energy regeneration so you can use your abilities and each action performs like in dota 2. There is also potions and mango to refill your energy, also some items, in warframe also there are the items but I personally imagine a different energy management system which works similar like a stamina bar if you not use your abilities, then it will start refill in seconds.

 

Nuker frames are energy dependant, not all frame could work like Nidus, which can refill his energy with rage and with killing an ability. An ideal system the cooperation between the classes are on and each frame depend on another on a degree. Trinity is famously support and the devs made her the ultimate support, but she needs also a tank who protect her also a cc frame which can make it possible to work for the team also a nuker which does the damage.

Each frame can perform these classes in a limited level, some can do better some lesser but all capable. I never used pizzas or zenurik ( still not second dream ) and I just rely on my weapons combined with timed ability use. Most of the time I play solo so for me it is not a big problem.

[Hexsing]

9 minutes ago, Otaku_Hyen said:

The energy system as a whole is okay in regard there are pizzas, zenurik and also the mobs drops more likely energy instead of hp orbs. What would be nice to be refresh to add a moderate hp and energy regeneration so you can use your abilities and each action performs like in dota 2. There is also potions and mango to refill your energy, also some items, in warframe also there are the items but I personally imagine a different energy management system which works similar like a stamina bar if you not use your abilities, then it will start refill in seconds.

 

Nuker frames are energy dependant, not all frame could work like Nidus, which can refill his energy with rage and with killing an ability. An ideal system the cooperation between the classes are on and each frame depend on another on a degree. Trinity is famously support and the devs made her the ultimate support, but she needs also a tank who protect her also a cc frame which can make it possible to work for the team also a nuker which does the damage.

Each frame can perform these classes in a limited level, some can do better some lesser but all capable. I never used pizzas or zenurik ( still not second dream ) and I just rely on my weapons combined with timed ability use. Most of the time I play solo so for me it is not a big problem.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.  About the roles of each frame.

I like how you mentioned needing frames to asisst Trinity as she is mega support.  

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

4 hours ago, Teljaxx said:

Its not just nukes, all abilities should be more limited. The free spamming of nukes, invincibility, CC, and every other crazy power is one of the biggest contributors to how unengaging this game has become. And this isn't just about me. Just look at the constant stream of threads begging for DE to add any kind of challenge to the game, and you'll see I am not alone. And, most of the time, what these people are actually asking for is not specifically challenge, per se, but to simply make the game more engaging, because they have gotten tired of simply pushing one button to kill everything all the time.

Almost every game is about resource management in some form. Health, ammo, damage, mana, money, time, whatever. Dealing with the limited nature of those resources is what makes the game interesting, so when something removes those limits, the whole thing becomes less interesting. Take a look at the original Doom: A simple game, especially compared to Warframe, but still extremely fun. But if you always use cheatcodes, like godmode or infinite ammo, that fun won't last very long at all. Why? Because you have removed the primary resource limitations that make the game fun in the first place.

For example: One of the main things that makes using the BFG fun is its extremely limited ammo. It can nuke whole rooms, but only rarely. You have to be careful not to waste it, so that it isn't unavailable when you really need it. But with infinite ammo? You can beat the entire game by using one big gun, and you don't even have to aim. But that gets old really fast.

Currently, Warframe's energy system is the equivalent of an infinite ammo BFG; Boring.

As I already said, this excuse doesn't work because Warframe is, at its heart, a multiplayer game. If it was single player only, then this would be fine. I already play solo ~95% of the time, so that I can play how I want. But for those few times when I have to play with other people, I have to follow their nuke spam meta, or get left behind. It basically feels like I am being forced to use cheatcodes, just because everyone else is using cheatcodes. And it gets really boring, really fast.

Plus, if players have to avoid using whole sections of the game to avoid becoming overpowered, that is just plain bad game design.

Yea that's totally fair and logical. But once that is toned down, you still have Primed Reach....lol. The melee in this game is just as wild and free as the energy usage. If you correct one aspect, you still have the other, and you still have sniper rifles which have always been a bane in the gaming world if you know how to aim.

I understand. I use to be that person in 2 to 4 hour raids with 18 people all communicating with precision efficiency. It was true, peak imagination and innovation that I've never seen used between just strangers online together. But I simply dont think a lot of people are ready for that. I was single when I was hardcore into gaming, but not anymore.

I think a solution is just adding a hardcore, barebones version of some Starchart modes. I thought ESO was gonna be really hard and intimidating when I finally started: it wasn't. Even though I have to leave because everyone else starts dying, any actual group could fly through that.

I did try arbitrations, and that was a bit more fun. But at the time I didnt know about the drones so I kept seeing a bunch of grey 0s. I saw some videos and now I know to seek them out, I'm gonna re-prepare myself and head back in soon.

 

I've already grasped Tridolon, but once I get a better amp and max out some focus schools in a year, I guess that'll be pretty easy too lol.

The only thing I haven't done is profit taker stuff but I'm sure I'll slide through that as well. All in due time. 

 

I'm rambling. They can do whatever they want to the game, but I'll still prosper lol.

[Darklord_Tou]

18 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

How about no.

Screwing with energy sustain ability would make a lot of frames suddenly either much more difficult to use or not even viable. This would make the "meta" more restrictive, not less.

 

I swear I dont understand the nerf herder mentality on this one.

did you missed the part where i wrote "set that as base and balance the game around it"? 

obviously when you change certain part of the game you have to balance other part of the game accordingly.

Lets look at a game like destiny 2... the things you can do on that game is fairly limited compared to warframe.. which also makes the game much easier to balance,

Giving so much energy to a point where its a non-factor is definitely not gonna help balance the game

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 hours ago, Darklord_Tou said:

did you missed the part where i wrote "set that as base and balance the game around it"? 

obviously when you change certain part of the game you have to balance other part of the game accordingly.

Lets look at a game like destiny 2... the things you can do on that game is fairly limited compared to warframe.. which also makes the game much easier to balance,

Giving so much energy to a point where its a non-factor is definitely not gonna help balance the game

I didn't miss anything. Your idea of "balance" is not my idea of fun. You have the option of playing this game however you want. You can play the game with no arcane energize, streamline, fleeting, flow, rage and etc if you want to.

 

But your asking DE to break everyone else's playstyle just so you can play the game how you already can. No.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Maybe the people that apparently have too much energy can create a journal or some type of record. They can bring their efficiency down to 60% or less, play the game for awhile and let us know how it goes. 

Newsflash: I've done it already, and I have a maxed Void Dash. You struggle. 

It's almost like you can tailor your Loadout to whatever you want. It's almost like the current system in place makes you choose and pick your strengths and weaknesses. 

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Just don't add in so many secondary resources. I hate games that adds in a second resource just to slow down spamming abilities.

[Marine027]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu:

Maybe the people that apparently have too much energy can create a journal or some type of record. They can bring their efficiency down to 60% or less, play the game for awhile and let us know how it goes. 

Newsflash: I've done it already, and I have a maxed Void Dash. You struggle. 

It's almost like you can tailor your Loadout to whatever you want. It's almost like the current system in place makes you choose and pick your strengths and weaknesses. 

^This.

I mean limitating things are a balance issue and or needed on its own of course but the game gives you the freedom to make things harder.

Fighting level 200 enemies is not challangeing, just takes longer and you die faster as example, want such? Play without mods and with weak weapons.

I on my side as example build my builds balanced, no power creep and not leaving much behind, i rarely use corrupted mods and sacrifce mods are a cancer to the game in my eyes, never going to use them on other frames or use a Umbra forma, i was hoping for Umbra frames but that was scraped now meaning also lack of story for them.

On my build again i use things like lets say Nova with Sancti Tigris, the proc heals me randomly, or Simulor on Limbo since he lacks strong AoE attacks on himself,while Mesa with her 4th i use a sniper, strong single target since she can kill so many enemys at once, etc.

YOU make the game how you wanna play, it is like using a exploit and then crying about it being to easy also, it is the exact same, just because it is possibleto use certain things not means you should use something like this or always fully, like ridiclious damage numbers on certain weapons.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Marine027
Typos

[Fleuria]

On 2019-10-18 at 5:25 AM, LSG501 said:

I've got all 5, not maxed but at a point where I'd be happy to run any and I disagree but it's your opinion.  I'm not on about the abilities that cross over for operator, they're kind of sensible to use if you can. 

Eidolon hunts use a different focus school for literally two reasons, energy getting wiped out and the higher 'single shot' damage output, the quicker revives are handy but when that got it's restrictions it's 'less useful' than it's old version, yeah higher damage is nice but it just makes it slightly longer before your weapons fall off at high level and it's not needed for normal content, bit of extra armor is fine but it still doesn't stop a frame getting one shot at the levels where it's most useful, low armour frames will still always be 'low armour'.  Combo counter being slightly slower I suppose is useful but melee is generally overpowered compared with other weapons so I wouldn't personally swap it for easier access to energy.

 

 

(I've got all 5 schools maxed, for whatever that's worth. There's some skills I don't have enabled, because they cause problems for another build and I can't have different school configurations for a school used on different builds.)

But... explaining why other schools are useful in a specific example, and saying you are happy to run any of them ... that is how you disagree that the other schools can be useful?

Also,... with armor, I presume you are talking about the Unairu school? I like to use the Unairu school in arbitration on a high health, high armor frame (along with every other trick I can squeeze in, to make my frame have a better chance of surviving). I also use it on the same frame in radiation sorties because occasionally there's someone who unthinkingly brings in and indiscriminately uses an AoE attack, and I like having the damage reflection when that happens. It just seems fair.

When training (new gear or forma'd gear), I often like using Vazarin because of the extra affinity range and because of the bonus arcane revives. The revives can also be handy in other kinds of missions with pick up groups.

Etc. etc.

Do not get me wrong - zenurik is the most generically useful school, because it tends to make your warframe powers be available for use when they would otherwise be power starved. But, even there, it's something of a "discount bargain basement" skill, because there's other ways of achieving the same end. Also, when I'm using a weapon focused build, and/or with rarely used powers, I tend to not get much use out of it.

[Goodwill]

Just a suggestion, what about instead of energy orbs, we leech energy from slain enemies and just say it has something to do with our void powers.

I do agree with the topic that Warframe's energy system is outdated, but the concept of an energy pool for Warframe I feel has its place. Like a reservoir of water you can drink from when you choose to.

I believe energy orbs are unnecessary screen clutter although the flip-side is that with orbs, you can consume them when you need rather than there being useless excess. To rectify that, maybe excess energy can be stored in energy pads. Then you can use excess energy at a later point through your gear wheel or store them in your inventory. This will also provide incentive for players to play the game in order to gather a much needed resource or for players to constantly be gaining a useful resource while completing missions for other reasons.
 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Goodwill

[Lakais]

The biggest question I have with energy pools has and always will be: Why do I start with lower base of energy, rather then a full pool? I can't wrap my head around that. Those who use energy a lot, drop down a few pizzas or use the focus dash (or both) so it's just some weird administrative task at the start of a mission. Granted, it acts as a resource and credit sink, but if that alone is the reason then I am still scratching my head. Sure the costs stack up over time to obscene quantities, but it's not enough to really be an effective sink. 

[LSG501]

2 hours ago, Fleuria said:

But... explaining why other schools are useful in a specific example, and saying you are happy to run any of them ... that is how you disagree that the other schools can be useful?

You've misunderstood what I've written.  Basically what I am saying is that while I'm not maxed on them I've got them to a point where all the 'good stuff' is available. 

Now don't get me wrong, there are use case scenarios (as with all things in game) where they all could be used, nidus/inaros don't really need zenurik due to rage for example so could say pick unairu but because of the way DE set up focus schools it's just a pain to swap them around for one or two missions etc so most don't bother, I know I don't, hell I don't even swap it out when using hildryn and she doesn't use energy lol.   Essentially there just isn't enough reason to swap out of zenurik in most cases.

 

2 minutes ago, Lakais said:

The biggest question I have with energy pools has and always will be:

DE logic.... thinks if we don't have full energy we can't just spam abilities... players respond with a few pizza's or zenurik as you say.

Edited October 20, 2019 by LSG501

[Spectre-8]

On 2019-10-17 at 6:30 PM, birdobash said:

 completely out of your control

Here is a tip : find the leeching monster and just kill it 4Head .

[Fleuria]

On 2019-10-20 at 5:45 PM, LSG501 said:

You've misunderstood what I've written.  Basically what I am saying is that while I'm not maxed on them I've got them to a point where all the 'good stuff' is available. 

Now don't get me wrong, there are use case scenarios (as with all things in game) where they all could be used, nidus/inaros don't really need zenurik due to rage for example so could say pick unairu but because of the way DE set up focus schools it's just a pain to swap them around for one or two missions etc so most don't bother, I know I don't, hell I don't even swap it out when using hildryn and she doesn't use energy lol.   Essentially there just isn't enough reason to swap out of zenurik in most cases.

 

DE logic.... thinks if we don't have full energy we can't just spam abilities... players respond with a few pizza's or zenurik as you say.

(1) I have a slot I use for one-off missions, so I can play with things like my focus school and still leave my primary build for quick use. (However, I do not use zenurik on my current favorite warframe, because my build does not benefit from the extra power.)

(2) I remember a forum discussion years ago with someone at DE who seemed baffled that people did not use pizzas routinely.