nerf Bullet Jump or add a Stamina Indicator

[Tyreaus]

1 hour ago, TheRealShade said:

Actually, bulletjump in itself isn't a problem, the problem is from enemies having really bad AI across the board and taking an accuracy hit when we are in the air. That as well as them being too slow and grounded, we need more mobile and reactive enemies to put up a fight.

Also we need enemy hitscan removed, it's no fun being sniped from 70m away with no chance to dodge once the bullet has been fired.

AI is a complex problem because, for example, there's not much use talking about better AI if most things end up CC'd and dead shortly after engaging players. Some enemies live long enough just by default to showcase some better AI - Raknoids come to mind - but they tend to have decently versatile kits and sufficiently good AI that makes them engaging fights for how long the fights last. Everything else just dies too fast. So if we wanted AI to be improved for the average mook that actually needs it, then we'd have to start reining in power. That's...a controversial topic, to say the least, and cascades into a slew of other problems.

I do tend to agree with enemy hitscan, though. The Orokin faction shows A: hitscan weapons for us (Strun) can be projectiles for enemies and B: mass projectile weapons aren't going to melt computers. And more visual feedback, IMO, just makes gameplay more engaging and rewarding. You can dodge Grineer shots and you can dodge Corpus shots but you can only see yourself dodging the latter because you can't see the bullets of the former. The visual feedback feels nice, especially in such a mobility-heavy game.

[DOOMPATRIOT]

En 18/10/2019 a las 12:09, (XB1)francy x096 dijo:

(please read before put a nosense comment, i'm here to talk, not to flame)

With this jump we ar immortal, we can evade anything and reach anywhere in few time.

If warframe is easy is for this, we have this unbalanced advantage on enemies, think if enemies can SPAM this abominable jump to evade us, it would be the hell, but we can anytime we need it, at no cost.

Reduce the distance of bullet jump or add to it an energy cost because now is overpowered.

But nerf bullet jump makes the rush annoyng, so reducing the tilset size could be an idea to ease this nerf.

Or buff sprint speed, no one except gauss sprint in warframe.

A viable alternative would be a stamina indicator that consume itself anytime we perform jump, bullet jump, sprint, parkour or wall latch.

what do you think about bullet jump?

I see you with the comment, but (for me atleast) yall play against lvl 30 enemies, you won't die, I don't see the problem for you.

I do +1 hour runs, but in that case the bullet jumping won't save you from death, they will still be able to 1 hit you if you are not careful enough.

Edited October 20, 2019 by DOOMPATRIOT

[IamLoco]

No.

 

They actually removed the stamina meter, and that´s good.

We are space ninjas. We can bullet jump. And we need to!

[Steel_Rook]

18 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I would add that I feel like wall-running should be pretty much the fastest on-foot get-around method. It'd make "getting around as fast as you can" have a little more technical versatility.

I disagree. Wall-Running has its role in the game, but I feel that it's the same place where Bullet Jumping should be - verticality and traversal of rough terrain. On flat ground, simply "running fast" should be the optimal way to move. This avoids the cornerstone issue games like Titanfall have, where being on the ground makes you feel slow and sluggish, to the point of trying to wall-run along the sides of straight hallways because you move faster that way. The result is just as silly as salmon-flopping your way through caves and pipes, pinballing off the walls because it's faster than walking. I don't have an issue with technical terrain traversal, but I want that reserved for climbing structures, navigating bottomless pits, platforming, wire-walking and all the other wonderful acrobatics we do when simply walking on the floor isn't a viable option. When moving in a straight line along flat ground IS an option, though, I feel that THAT should also be the most optimal option.

The beauty of bullet-juming in Warframe isn't that it allows you to jump past enemies and move through maps quickly, in my opinion. A Sparrow in Destiny does the same thing. No, the beauty of bullet jumping in conjunction with wall-climbing is that it offers unparalleled verticality like very few other games do. You can get over, under and up on top of damn near everything with the greatest of ease. Running 200 meters along two long hallways and a large empty rooms, however, shouldn't call for this kind of verticality and ought to just let the player simply "run across."

 

18 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I do kind of worry about having sprint being too fast, though. It's good in one sense to have it faster than bullet jumping so that both manoeuvres have their place. But it would also mean Volt / Gauss could have the purposes behind their 1s kind of negated, since there's a point where one can go too fast due to the way friction works. Maybe they'd need the Itzal treatment? Also, auto-sprinting could be coming up, and I doubt we'd want to be Mach rushing quite literally all the time. That could boof things in the face, too.

I don't disagree entirely - opening up a "much faster sprint" to everyone will somewhat diminish the strength of those abilities by proxy. However, I typically find that that's a fair trade if it offers a general improvement to the wider game experience, and those Warframes can be compensated if need be. AKA, "the Itzal treatment." I've not played a lot of Volt so I can't speak there, but Gauss' Mach Rush is honestly not that great for terrain traversal due to its speed and lack of manoeuvrability. What I tend to use it for the most is combat - rhino-charging through enemies to knock them over like bowling pins and charge up my Battery in the process. It's not BAD for traversal, mind you, but it does a lot of other things too. I believe Volt's speed similarly also boosts melee, reload and other speeds, as well.

The reason I bring this up is sprint on the ground is pointless right now. There's never a situation where you want to NOT be sprinting, it costs nothing and it offers a speed boost so minuscule that I often have to look at my Warframe's stance to tell whether I'm sprinting or not. Sure, there are sprint-related mods but at that point you're trying to salvage a bad system. Compare this to Archwing Boost. The speed difference is MASSIVE, as is the loss of control and functionality. In an Archwing, you hover to fight, you boost to move but not both at the same time. It means your combat controls can be tight and precise to give you command over your movement while your traversal speed can be considerable in situations where precision is irrelevant. A similar dynamic which allows me to quickly and simply cover ground in one "mode" while being able to fight with precision and slower moving in the other is what I want for ground combat, as well, simply because I feel it's a neat balance between extremes.

 

13 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

AI is a complex problem because, for example, there's not much use talking about better AI if most things end up CC'd and dead shortly after engaging players. Some enemies live long enough just by default to showcase some better AI - Raknoids come to mind - but they tend to have decently versatile kits and sufficiently good AI that makes them engaging fights for how long the fights last. Everything else just dies too fast. So if we wanted AI to be improved for the average mook that actually needs it, then we'd have to start reining in power. That's...a controversial topic, to say the least, and cascades into a slew of other problems.

It's actually more complex than that. People claim they want smart AI that takes cover, groups together, hides behind shields and "acts smart"... In games where the AI already does all of these things but they just never notice. I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine about the Destiny 2 AI, where he gave pretty much the above complaints, even though the "sentient" faction enemies can be observed taking cover, hiding from the player, snipers seeking vantage points, shield guys deploying barriers that their allies stand behind, etc. Except none of this is telegraphed though any obvious tells, so it's easy to miss if you're not paying attention. Hell, the Warframe AI will take cover if it has any available nearby in a lot of cases, yet people claim they'll only ever stand out in the open.

As I've said many times before, "good AI" isn't the same as "smart AI." Good AI is consistent, good AI is predictable, good AI telegraphs its actions and intentions and - above all else - good AI is simple enough that people can understand what it's actually doing. The much-vaunted FEAR AI, while decent, wasn't too much more special than what you'd find in Half-Life in practical terms. What it did well, however, was presentation. From interacting with scripted items (knocking over shelves, kicking open doors, vaulting through plate glass windows) to multiple "tones" of scripted barks that the AI goes through as their numbers whittle down to scripted barks for everything from flanking to retreating to throwing grenades, the Replica Soldiers let the player KNOW they were being smart. Simply having the AI act smart with no way for the player to tell just ends up making them look random.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Steel_Rook

[Aldain]

38 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Hell, the Warframe AI will take cover if it has any available nearby in a lot of cases, yet people claim they'll only ever stand out in the open.

It should be noted that they will take cover, but just as often as they take proper cover they will flip-flop between two cover points because the A.I. in Warframe is more easy to confuse than a cat with a laser pointer.

Really due to hilariously low time to kill on enemies and the questionable pathfinding it is really hard most of the time to see Warframe A.I. in a smart way, because for every one smart thing they do (hide in nullifier bubbles, line up behind shield bearers to advance etc.) you have even more examples of them hopping up and down ledges, doing the hokey pokey on staircases, taking the longest cover-less route to reach a destination and so on.

I think enemies would be less of a joke if they could figure out what causes the A.I. to roll a nat 1 on their Int check so often.

[DarkRuler2500]

I would agree if you meant Conclave only.
Because there the bullet jumping is extremely annoying.
But in classic cooperative play? No thanks.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I disagree. Wall-Running has its role in the game, but I feel that it's the same place where Bullet Jumping should be - verticality and traversal of rough terrain.

The problem with this is that just about no maps have points where wall-running is useful over basic bullet jumping. The only maps that are even that conducive to wall-running in the first place is the Orokin tile set, which is almost famously smooth ground-wise. Verticality otherwise doesn't exist in sufficient amounts that sprinting (for horizontal traversal) + bullet-jumping (for vertical) doesn't end up optimal. I'm struggling to remember a tile where one might need to wall-climb or wall-run and bullet jumping doesn't cut it, and I'm only able to remember the tutorial layout and the "kill 12 enemies without touching the ground" Riven achievement, even in the newer Jupiter tile-sets...

Maybe I'm too hopeful, but the idea was that players would know - or have a general idea - when rushing for a wall to run across would take more time than just sprinting through a given tile, so that it has a niche in certain tiles but wouldn't end up abused because, at moments, it flat out takes more time compared to sprinting.

Edit: What if mixing in parkour moves provided a temporary boost to speed as a whole instead, with more variety granting a greater boost? Nothing becomes mandatory but using the full extent of movement abilities is still encouraged no matter if sprinting is fastest.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Tyreaus

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

The movement is this game is one of its strongest attributes, why would want to break it's kneecaps? Also if you weren't a new player you wouldn't be scarring our eyes with that flith of "stamina bar" that was a terrible time in warframe were if your frame didn't have good stamina you probably never used it. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by (XB1)The Neko Otaku

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

>Plays mostly Rhino

>Says the game is too easy

Squishy frames flat out die without mobility.

Also, this game used to have stamina, and they got rid of it because literally everyone in the game hated it, including the devs.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

We used to have a stamina bar. It was removed for good reason.

[AriaSTG]

how to bullet jump?

MR 27 here.

/s

[Teto]

3 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

We used to have a stamina bar. It was removed for good reason.

Yeah thank god the stamina bar was removed. That thing was annoying to keep up with in the first place.

Bullet jumping right now is as simple as it is and in a good place. Sure there's bound to be some errors and updates to it but we've come far from the old spamming your weapon attacks to get to places faster.

If you were to utilize the old method to get from point A to point B using the weapon spin on console, I'd personally struggle to keep up with it compared to bullet jumping right now.

[KCToxic]

I don't think bringing us back to parkour 1.0 is a great idea. Like everyone has said, there's a reason why the stamina bar was removed. While I agree that sprinting is overshadowed by bullet jumping, nerfing bullet jumping or imposing stamina on all maneuvers isn't the way to make sprinting or mach rush shine more, that would just slow down gameplay and then nothing will feel good in the movement system.  

The whole point is to be a fast, evasive god ninja, on top of how the survivability of squishy frames relies on staying out of the line of fire. 

[(XBOX)Yufix4574]

8 hours ago, KCToxic said:

imposing stamina on all maneuvers

i said, not for sprint, jump and slide

[Melanholic7]

Its a trolling or no?o.o im confused.

anyway - not,ty, we want having fun. If u dislike fun - dont play games.

[Steel_Rook]

22 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

The problem with this is that just about no maps have points where wall-running is useful over basic bullet jumping. The only maps that are even that conducive to wall-running in the first place is the Orokin tile set, which is almost famously smooth ground-wise. Verticality otherwise doesn't exist in sufficient amounts that sprinting (for horizontal traversal) + bullet-jumping (for vertical) doesn't end up optimal. I'm struggling to remember a tile where one might need to wall-climb or wall-run and bullet jumping doesn't cut it, and I'm only able to remember the tutorial layout and the "kill 12 enemies without touching the ground" Riven achievement, even in the newer Jupiter tile-sets...

While you are correct in that there aren't very many instances where wall-running and wall-jumping and wall-latching are straight-up required, I don't think that alone is enough to stop people from using them. There are plenty of instances where it's entirely possible to get around with precision bullet jumps but far more convenient to supplement them with wall-running if you come up short or don't nail the desired platforms entirely. The problem is that when that happens, wall-running almost never works because you run into ledges and edges and decorative elements which either stop you or knock you off the wall. And that's not even counting the myriad of walls you can't even climb. As I've said in the past - the biggest problem with wall-running isn't wall-running itself. It's that the majority of tilesets actively and aggressively prevent you from doing it.

Jupiter is the one tileset which features a lot of wall-running, largely because it was designed to require it, but to a very large extent because it was designed to not HAMPER it. When trying to wall-run, you interact with simplified flat invisble walls draped over the much more complex cosmetic geometry, meaning you can easily glide over decorative struts and lips and ledges and the random junk that sticks out the side. DE seem committed to doing this with all or at least most of the older tilesets, so you'll see more cause to wall-run as the game moves forward.

Generally speaking, I see wall-running not as a system unto itself, but rather as a transition between ground movement and jumping, predominantly used to bridge the gap where bullet-jumping comes short. Not everyone is perfect with their jumps, plenty of people bulletjump into walls and ceilings and such. This is where a proper wall-running system would come into play - as a safety net for when you fumble a jump but still want to recover without having to go AAALL the way back. I don't want people "encouraged" to wall-run any more than I want people "encouraged" to bullet jump. People ought to use movement mechanics if and when they find them handy, or ignore some of them if they have no use.

I'll give you an example - I never dodge in Warframe. I see no point to doing so. It's a slower, less controllable and less cancellable version of the basic slide. Some people swear by it because rolling resists knockbacks. Trying to encourage me to use rolling by making it even more powerful isn't the right way to go, simply because it's going to come across as though you're twisting my arm into using something I don't like. Maybe fix the rolling mechanics so they stop rolling me over cliffs and interrupting my reloads and I'll think about using them by choice, rather than by coercion.

I'm of the opinion that as long as wall-running can be made to not be such a hit-or-miss, inconsistent, annoying mess which doesn't work on most walls anyway, more people will use it even if it's not objectively better than bullet jumps.

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, (XB1)francy x096 said:

i said, not for sprint, jump and slide

Only right before you posted this though.... (at the time of posting the above quote is 1 hour old and the edit to the original post is also, coincidentally, 1 hour old)
After all until that point in time (nearly 3 days) you had it read (bold emphasis mine):

Quote

A viable alternative would be a stamina indicator that consume itself anytime we perform jump, bullet jump, sprint, parkour or wall latch.

So the user you're responding to was responding to your idea as it was 10 hours ago: A stamina drain on all maneuvers...which would suck hard.
I know it would because that's the system we used to have in the past...running half way across a tile only to slow down to a walk because our frames got out of breath.

Further though: You're asking DE to go back to a system that they moved away from....why?
What would we really gain from slowing down gameplay to an utter crawl?
It would just make the game slow and boring with absolutely no upsides.

It wouldn't make the game any harder.  It wouldn't make us pay any more attention to the enemies.
It would just slow us down purely for the sake of slowing us down...and I fail to see how that would be better for anyone.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Tsukinoki

[Plushy]

I like bulletjump exactly the way it is, including the enemy accuracy nerf. Any nerf to bullet jump would be the end of squishy frames and I mostly play Nyx so I feel I have a vested interest in keeping it  as is.

No stamina please. We got rid of that ages ago because all it did was slow us down and be a nuisance. It never did anything to balance the game back then and I doubt it'll balance anything if it's re-added. It's annoying enough that operators have what is effectively a stamina bar for void dash and it even gets shared with a couple other things.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Plushy
edit monster rawr