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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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4 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

This "what's the best let's nerf it down" is killing the game. 

You say "what is best," someone else might say "what is overpowered."  Ultimately, why even have 8 mod slots if so many of them are already spoken for with every single weapon?  At that point, why not just cut the number of slots down to 5 or 6 and build those statistics in by default?  That is the reason behind these nerfs.  To open up creativity and customization in build options.  With a game full of hundreds of mods that never see the light of day, I welcome any attempt to address the issue.  Will it be perfect at launch?  No.  Will people complain?  Yes.  Will they listen?  You know they will.  People fear change so much.  They have had a misstep or two in the past, but I have a lot of faith in DE.  It will all be in a good place eventually.  Numbers will be tweaked.  Hotfixes will roll out.  Feedback will be listened to.  Everyone just needs to be the supportive and amazing community that we have always been and all will be gravy...or maple syrup--whatever.

Edited by tekmansam
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Just now, George_PPS said:

This "what's the best let's nerf it down" is killing the game. 

We are alrady one shoting everything, melee or not. There has to be nerfs, at some point, if we want challenging content.

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5 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

long-range weapons were getting too much of a benefit

Yeah if this kills melee I'm just going to move on to different games. 

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How is Arch-melee changing? I play a lot of Titania and really enjoy using melee. I found using channeling (with Zenurik) helped put out a lot of damage, but that's being changed. How will that focus perk be affected? 

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yikes, heavy nerfs to every strong tool in the current melee system. Not disagreeing that melee maybe slightly too strong right now, but there's no amount of base damage buffing that will counter the loss of crit stacking, range stacking, condition overload and covert lethality. Just yikes.

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Honestly some of those mod changes feel like they're being done more to make us change builds than actually because they're needed... which also screams buy more forma etc (yes I know about the 'first' week but that's not exactly long to go through all our mods) if I'm being cynical. 

Rivens not mentioned so assume they'll be adjusted the same but how do they work with their equivalent mod, do we get an increase in any limits imposed or does it have the same limit.

Life strike seems like a major nerf, not even sure how often we'll get to use a heavy hit....

Don't feel CO or blood rush actually needed the changes...

Not sure I like the melee combo counter only being on heavy hits either.

No mention of focus abilities that affect things either...

Spring-Loaded Blade - Will now provide a maximum of 3 additional stacks of Melee Range.  - what does this mean, is there a limit on the range of melee or something..I hope there isn't going to be some stealth nerf to melee range.

 

I'm going to hold full judgement until release (it's not like it's going to be changed anyway) but if I'm being honest, I'm not sure we really needed this much of a rework or how well it will actually work in enclosed environment, all the demo's have been shown in huge open spaces....

Edited by LSG501
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3 hours ago, Sannidor said:

Ok, so what EXACTLY will happen to this Riven???

VY1Imgo.jpg

My guess would be something like quicker building combo counter and more damage for heavies? Could be pretty cool.

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So do we still have Auto-Blocking, or is it just Manual now?

Is it Auto-Block until you equip your Melee, and then it's Manual? Does Auto-Block still work the same but now you can also manually Block on top of it?

Sorry, it's a little vague.

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4 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is another clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential.

This, I personally still feel that allowing interrupting of equip animations is the way to go. Quick melee skips animations, so just change the function of weapon swapping to instantly equip the other weapon on press and play the anim, but allow us to interrupt it. Then you could just hold down the swap weapon button and hold the aim button to be instantly in block, or start attacking before the animation has fully played out. Makes so much more sense that way...

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3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Life strike seems like a major nerf, not even sure how often we'll get to use a heavy hit....

As often as you want - you can do one with no combo counter at all, it just won't get any extra damage from it. It should still let you regain life, at least if I'm reading it right.

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I'm not a fan. Being a pure melee player for over three & half years, it was also what brought me to the game: The different approach to melee, that made it viable in the endgame as a standalone thing, as opposed to other bog-standard shooter games, where melee is often sidelined and only a supplement to gunplay. I'm sorry to sound alarmist, but this all just sounds like nerfs across the board on the melee. I'm with few others, who said that it's Primaries & Secondaries, that might need that scaleability, than to remove it from the melee. While life doesn't revolve around Warframe, I loved playing the melee madness it offered; while being efficient tool too. This update seems to be set on removing that option.

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vor 20 Minuten schrieb tekmansam:

The more people constantly complain about these specific three mods being nerfed, the more everyone is proving DE's point.  The very idea that any weapon to be considered to be viable has to be centered around these mods is textbook evidence for a needed nerf.  It is game balance 101.

actually those three mods all are a bit more intereting to use, than the +90% elemental mods, which will likely take their place. .__.

As far as I see it, good balance in your game is reached, when the most effective way to play your game is also the one, which is the most interesting/fun. So we'll have to see what will come out on top and if melee can still have a place next to nukeframes like Saryn and Equinox (which it currently does)

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2 minutes ago, Bioboygamer said:

As often as you want - you can do one with no combo counter at all, it just won't get any extra damage from it. It should still let you regain life, at least if I'm reading it right.

The video basically shows heavy attack as a slam attack.....  I still don't think that will work well, especially for rage builds which had the synergy thing going.  Think it would have been better to be always active just at a lower percentage than tying into the heavy attack system.

 

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2 minutes ago, elZach said:

actually those three mods all are a bit more intereting to use, than the +90% elemental mods, which will likely take their place. .__.

As far as I see it, good balance in your game is reached, when the most effective way to play your game is also the one, which is the most interesting/fun. So we'll have to see what will come out on top and if melee can still have a place next to nukeframes like Saryn and Equinox (which it currently does)

You raise an interesting point, or at the very least interesting perspective.  I don't really have anything to rebut it with, but certainly one way of looking at it.

Edit:  I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but I think you are conflating "balance" with "fun."  Just because the most effective way to play something is fun and engaging does not mean it is balanced.  The idea is to find that golden zone in that ven diagram where you can hit it all.

Edited by tekmansam
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1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

The video basically shows heavy attack as a slam attack.....  I still don't think that will work well, especially for rage builds which had the synergy thing going.  Think it would have been better to be always active just at a lower percentage than tying into the heavy attack system.

 

From reading the notes, there seems to be both a heavy attack and a heavy slam attack, with the latter being what was primarily shown off on the stream. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

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I'm not too keen on the life strike changes. Several of my squishy frames rely on quick healing, really don't want to be forced to just use tanky frames. 

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Certainly feeling the nerf vibe, though it does seem way cool.

Melee was doing incredible damage with condition overload and blood rush. Before then it was doing incredible damage with coptering and maiming strike. I really hope you aren't going to make the rare CO/BR plummet in value and effectiveness to force in these new heavy attacks. I'm pretty spooked by the "heavy attacks consume all combo".

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2 hours ago, kyori said:

So we don't aim with our gun anymore like it did now eh?

All Rebecca showed was the Heavy Slam Attack, so Heavy Attack is only a single strike or can keep pressing alt-fire to combo too?

Since you said the Combo Counter will reset to 0, when all the existing multiplier applied to Heavy Attacks.. so that particular Heavy Attack's damage is based on the flat number provided by the whatever number present on the Combo Counter before using Heavy Attack? So that means it won't scale, right?

It also means normal melee attack damage now won't scale too, right? If so, it is a straight nerf. 

Do you have any idea how much the present combo multiplier to a melee's damage helped in fighting against very high level enemies? With the new non-scaling phase 2, this will hurt the melee system a lot, my friend. Buffing the numbers won't help, unless the goal is to prevent players from doing long mission runs.

Sad DE is killing the effectiveness of the current melee system, with or without slide attack. I am seeing flashy attack styles in the new style at the expense of melee's effectiveness and damage. I also feel that DE is nerfing everything overall to make warframes and weapons weaker and weaker. The trend has been going on for at least 1 year. It's not fun to weaken everything and seeing smaller and smaller damage numbers in missions. 

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Just now, Bioboygamer said:

From reading the notes, there seems to be both a heavy attack and a heavy slam attack, with the latter being what was primarily shown off on the stream. At least, that's what it looks like to me.

I'm going by the heavy attack video, it looks like a small slam attack with all the effects and it lifts the enemies in the air ready for the further attacks or at least it does to me.  Suppose we'll just have to wait and see.   

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1 minute ago, (PS4)DangerDood9 said:

I'm not too keen on the life strike changes. Several of my squishy frames rely on quick healing, really don't want to be forced to just use tanky frames. 

Try not to forget that you are also getting 100% block which will help out with squishy frames.

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Simple: You aren't supposed to.

DE have very clearly never designed around above level 100 enemies. Arguably they've not even designed to level 100, but that's another matter.

I think that there’s a portion of the player base that specializes in doing long runs, so yeah, they can enjoy tools with reduced effectiveness. Also demolysts are gonna be much harder to take down, even if you’re unconcerned about endurance there’s those as well.

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1 minute ago, Kitsuty said:

Certainly feeling the nerf vibe, though it does seem way cool.

Melee was doing incredible damage with condition overload and blood rush. Before then it was doing incredible damage with coptering and maiming strike. I really hope you aren't going to make the rare CO/BR plummet in value and effectiveness to force in these new heavy attacks. I'm pretty spooked by the "heavy attacks consume all combo".

The term "heavy attack" sounds like slow and ineffectiveness. This is not what Warframe is about. Warframe is about killing fast as Warframes/Tennos move fast. The new system with so many new nerfs and new slow attack modes, it seems like a huge nerf. 

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24 minutes ago, tekmansam said:

That is the reason behind these nerfs.  To open up creativity and customization in build options

Or you could buff everything else up to scratch as well

that causes much less uproar

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1 minute ago, tekmansam said:

Try not to forget that you are also getting 100% block which will help out with squishy frames.

100% block within a cone in front of you.... from what they were saying you'll still likely be open on around 1/2 to 2/3rds of your body, if not more depending on your weapon. 

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Can we get a heads up of the melee weapons that will change MR? Specially those that will have MR raised!

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