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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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Will Warframe abilities that scale with combo multiplier still scale with combo multiplier? I.E Ash/Khora

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Just now, RWBY-WhiteRose said:

Or you could buff everything else up to scratch as well

that causes much less uproar

I hate to use this language, but that is an entitled way of looking at things.  Change 3 things to achieve balance, or change 100 things?  I'm afraid I can't really take that opinion seriously.

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The main thing that I'd like to see now is the long awaited "one hand and and gun" with weapons like longswords and daggers. Im imagining that this would allow us to block instead of ADS while using some of our one handed secondary weapons. That seems like an intuitive option now that manual blocking is back and buffed. It would encourage use of these melee weapons for damage protection while under fire while maintaining ranged gunplay. 

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3 minutes ago, tekmansam said:

Try not to forget that you are also getting 100% block which will help out with squishy frames.

I think its only front based, or at least that's how it appears to me. And things get pretty chaotic, I just don't see how I'm going to effectively keep my squishy frames as alive as currently possible. 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb tekmansam:

You raise an interesting point, or at the very least interesting perspective.  I don't really have anything to rebut it with, but certainly one way of looking at it.

Edit:  I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but I think you are conflating "balance" with "fun."  Just because the most effective way to play something is fun and engaging does not mean it is balanced.  The idea is to find that golden zone in that ven diagram where you can hit it all.

In game design there always has to be something you balance towrads. And it's rarely complete equilibrium, that would be easy to reach: just give everything the same stats and the same dps target. However if you look into things like competitive card- or online games - a perfectly even footing for all playable cards/characters is seldom the goal, because out of perceived and real weaknesses and strengths strategies and tactics emerge to overcome them, which leads to more engaging content for your users.

Balancing a game isn't the same as balancing out a scale. ^^

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)DangerDood9 said:

I think its only front based, or at least that's how it appears to me. And things get pretty chaotic, I just don't see how I'm going to effectively keep my squishy frames as alive as currently possible. 

As I stated earlier in this thread, I have always just toggled life strike on as needed here or there.  And with combo being built really fast, being able to hit it on every now and then for a touch up doesn't seem like it will change much.  I feel it will come out about the same; the same with added 100% block.  I feel it will be a net win.  I guess one change would be that it would be less easy to be mainly ranged, then just bust out the heal stick and go back to range.  You would actually have to build up some combo first in order to heal.  Even if it is a bit less effective, I think the overall engagement that it will add to the mechanics will be a design plus, if not slightly less effective.  Just because something becomes a bit less "press button to win" doesn't mean its a step in the wrong direction.

Edited by tekmansam
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Edit: Never mind, I just saw the response I missed about WF abilities keeping combo scaling. Ash is safe for now thankfully. We're still losing Fatal Teleport / Covert Lethality but those are Ash's weakest builds anyway so I won't mourn them.

Edited by Maniac523

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Since we're finally back with melee rework, please bring back Kestrel's main charm and trademark, the crazy ragdoll.

It was one of the few weapons that had it since Forcefield back in Damage 1.0 and was the main reason to use this weapon.

Please give Kestrel its long awaited life support.

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1 minute ago, elZach said:

In game design there always has to be something you balance towrads. And it's rarely complete equilibrium, that would be easy to reach: just give everything the same stats and the same dps target. However if you look into things like competitive card- or online games - a perfectly even footing for all playable cards/characters is seldom the goal, because out of perceived and real weaknesses and strengths strategies and tactics emerge to overcome them, which leads to more engaging content for your users.

Balancing a game isn't the same as balancing out a scale. ^^

I think the point being made is that a well-balanced game shouldn't have too much of a gap between the most optimal strategy and the group of strategies below it. Players will always try to find the 'best' strategy, but the balance comes in ensuring that there are a variety of other strategies that are similar in effectiveness, so that players who want to play at that level have several options, rather than one.

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4 hours ago, TyrianMollusk said:

This seems wrong.  Some of us like building combo and using crits.  Taking some of the combo counter makes sense, but taking ALL the combo counter completely resets your build-up, and turns it into a total either-or kind of thing.  If you want to build combo, you can never heavy attack, and if you heavy attack, you may as well not really build combo anymore.  Especially with the mods you've tied to heavy attacks, 

Take a look at the prevalence of combo duration mods and think about what that means.  People want to keep their combo counter.  The heavy attack system basically competes with this mod type, rendering it fairly useless unless someone avoids heavy attacks.

Why can't combo counter be kept? Why does it need to be wasted in one and single heavy (aka. slow) attack? Feels bad unless the base stats are buffed like 500%. We need to keep speaking up and will not see our weapons nerfed and that streamlining and fluidity gone. 


DE please keep the feeling of streamlining and fluidity intact. It's what Warframe is about. It's built in the game since day one. 

Edited by George_PPS
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Just had a thought...

What about the riven challenge that requires keeping a 3x multi for 30 seconds or whatever it is...

How exactly are melee weapons with actions which are triggered by charged attacks going to work when there is no charged attack....things like the wolf sledge, zenistar and sibear all have charge attacks that benefited from the reduced charge time of amalgam organ shatter.  if they're still 'hold e to trigger' then DE are basically forcing us to lose our reduced charge time before the charged attack... will we at the very least see a reduction in their activation time to compensate.  

 

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Primed Reach, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush nerf

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up. (If you are shocked then you should know that people spend 40k~ on some rivens and even 100k on Primed Chamber).

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

The point is not how much loss people suffer for losing their builds. Spin attacks have its special niche of killing hordes of enemies and meanwhile dashing forward especially for frames not capable of doing area damage (such as Inaros that can survive lvl 150-200 enemies easily but lacks ability damage) and this is why it is needed and considered efficient. 

 

And there are two kinds of nerfs

1. decrease in stats: this is what most games do, and generally acceptable

2. completely remove or trash

Warframe is doing the second right now, which is a Niagara fall on the flow of game.

What is the point of playing this game if everything you make effort to achieve and acquire has a risk of being trashed? Not to mention DE has done this to non-meta frames and weapons and even a few subpar stuff. Not everyone will be happy with this. Today they can trash spin attack, then tomorrow they could trash something else, who knows?

 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

 

Not Cool.

And don't laugh at me  if you see me equipping Glaive Prime in any mission. This post is the reason.

I have no problem accepting the loss, but the general pircture induces panic. 

 

What will be the subject to be trashed next?

 

 

Edited by Kaleidoomscope
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1 minute ago, tekmansam said:

As I stated earlier in this thread, I have always just toggled life strike on as needed here or there.  And with combo being built really fast, being able to hit it on every now and then for a touch up doesn't seem like it will change much.  I feel it will come out about the same; the same with added 100% block.  I feel it will be a net win.

To be fair people play the game differently. This change might not effect you as much since you already use it sparingly. But for other players who use it more often, this change looks like a nerf that's going to hinder the survivability of certain builds(mine for example). 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Bioboygamer:

I think the point being made is that a well-balanced game shouldn't have too much of a gap between the most optimal strategy and the group of strategies below it. Players will always try to find the 'best' strategy, but the balance comes in ensuring that there are a variety of other strategies that are similar in effectiveness, so that players who want to play at that level have several options, rather than one.

Exactly how I feel. I do believe that melee currently is a viable alternative to nuking and or camping with warframeabilities.

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3 minutes ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up.

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

 

Not Cool.

 

I think your interpretation is needlessly cynical.  There is no other game company I have ever seen that has gone as far out of their way to look out for their community, treat them right, and distance themselves from any and all scummy behaviors that are part and parcel in the industry.  I understand the loss you feel at the investment you have put into developing your builds and playstyles, but surely some part of you knew that spin to win might someday go the way of coptering?  Any and all investments you made you had to have known someday this might happen.

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17 minutes ago, tekmansam said:

As I stated earlier in this thread, I have always just toggled life strike on as needed here or there.  And with combo being built really fast, being able to hit it on every now and then for a touch up doesn't seem like it will change much.  I feel it will come out about the same; the same with added 100% block.  I feel it will be a net win.

In most of all changes I'm concerned more about Life Strike, As already 1 guy said, it's very crucial for me too, because without that mod I have no life in melee mod on all warframes, 100% damage block is good, but if you will block, how to do dmg then? Right now, I think Life Strike will work like Hirudo, but in late game it wont help enough to keep you alive and be dangerous in the same time. Plus it force to use heavy attacks most of all time.

About the other changes, need to check and test it, anyway all this changes like "blueprint" right now. First of all, all players have to test it in all ways, and give their feedback to DE for proper balance, thats all, because numbers doesnt show real deal (like doing most strongest build in wf-builders with biggest numbers but in real deal it's meh).

11 minutes ago, (PS4)DangerDood9 said:

To be fair people play the game differently. This change might not effect you as much since you already use it sparingly. But for other players who use it more often, this change looks like a nerf that's going to hinder the survivability of certain builds(mine for example). 

I know that feel bro, I'm playing the same style most of all time, I think it will work like Hirudo, but I'm scared that this changes gonna force us to use heavy attacks alot

Edited by Neurosonic
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13 minutes ago, tekmansam said:

I hate to use this language, but that is an entitled way of looking at things.  Change 3 things to achieve balance, or change 100 things?  I'm afraid I can't really take that opinion seriously.

Having several, more viable options should be a good enough choice. Not everything else has to be buffed

 

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1 minute ago, tekmansam said:

I think your interpretation is needlessly cynical.  There is no other game company I have ever seen that has gone as far out of their way to look out for their community, treat them right, and distance themselves from any and all scummy behaviors that are part and parcel in the industry.  I understand the loss you feel at the investment you have put into developing your builds and playstyles, but surely some part of you knew that spin to win might someday go the way of coptering?  Any and all investments you made you had to have known someday this might happen.

Okay gotta stop you there 

Theyre good.

Theyre definitely not scot clean (see: Glen)

Id advise you to wake up, smell the coffee, and probably think about the whole picture before you go and white knight for DE. 

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First:  thank you for returning manual blocking (and bringing back 100% block).  Both are very welcome reverts.

Second:  I've said it many times before and I'll say it again here, though I'm sure I'll continue to be ignored:  the proposed changes to the combo counter/combo multiplier and associated mods will ruin melee's ability to run endless missions for long periods of time.  Whatever flat damage boost you guys are thinking of will never be enough to compensate for losing the combo multiplier's damage scaling.  Please do not change the combo counter/multiplier.

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9 minutes ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

Primed Reach, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush nerf

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up.

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

Not Cool.

And don't laugh at me  if you see me equipping Glaive Prime in any mission. This post is the reason.

We need to keep speaking out to ask DE to keep the effectiveness of Warframes' melee system and its streamlining and fluidity. Thank you.

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The only part I dont like after reading this is the plan on how blocking is going to work. Just let us block with RMB without actively equipping melee first.

Ranged weapon equipped = Aim/Aim-glide. Melee weapon equipped = Block/block-glide.

No need to add the whole "hold weapon swap for dedicated melee" thing. It just goes against the whole point of the system which was supposed to be fluidity.

Atleast the horrible auto-block will be gone.

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2 minutes ago, Aekhon said:

First:  thank you for returning manual blocking (and bringing back 100% block).  Both are very welcome reverts.

Second:  I've said it many times before and I'll say it again here, though I'm sure I'll continue to be ignored:  the proposed changes to the combo counter/combo multiplier and associated mods will ruin melee's ability to run endless missions for long periods of time.  Whatever flat damage boost you guys are thinking of will never be enough to compensate for losing the combo multiplier's damage scaling.  Please do not change the combo counter/multiplier.

And nothing of value is lost, given endless missions aren't supposed to go endlessly but reach a point where they eclipse a player's ability to continue.

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You seem to have removed the benefits of quick melee by reintroducing a dedicated melee mode that has better functionality.
Having to switch to melee mode is less fluid. DON'T ADD IT BACK.


The only thing that seems to conflict is the right mouse button being aim glide vs blocking. Please remove aim glide when in quick meele and add manual blocking, so there is no reason to have a dedicated melee mode. Use fire button (or reload) to swap back to your gun.


Last thing would be to allow cancelling the first attack in the chain into a block. So you can go into the shiny new 100% block from shooting. Squishy frames might be able to be played by quickly blocking their way out of trouble.

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