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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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Few things: Can life strike just be universal life steal only smaller % on normal strikes (e.g. 1.5% damage to hp on all attacks, 15% on heavy attacks)? Because certain builds can use it as pseudo drain tanks or to juggle hp and energy values without using zenurik or pizzas (notably my dear ol nekros who can keep it up almost 24/7 if there is enough mobs which currently asks him to trade more parts for hp orbs later vs hp now).

Will Maiming strike still be additive in small values (e.g. 15% flat crit up to 6 or 5 stacks) and based on stacks or just multiplicative to base with big (e.g. 300%) multiplier? Because flat increases do open up more weapons to be able to use it in the first place and the rest of the changes seems to fix the spin2win baseline (depending on numbers).

Can Zenurik channeling efficiency become a heavy attack speed instead of combo count>damage efficiency?

Will melee on PC actually get its own keybind for equip melee or will it be forced onto "hold swap to equip melee"?

On that note, will the Heavy attack be also a single keybind or will we be able to add modifiers to it (e.g. allow players to make the light attack be left click, but instead of alt fire have heavy attacks be s+left click/back and light attack or ctrl+left click) OR alternatively will we be able to rebind what causes which attack chain to trigger (still keeping the idea of mobile, mobile slam, heavy damage and long reach attacks but allowing us to pick if its forward+left click, forward+right+left click or maybe forward+shift+left click, etc)?
 

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I love this game and the developers so much, this will make my full speed melee Rhino absolutely perfect. 

I'm also so glad this whole time i knew DE would normalize everything, now all the spin to winners ive seen have to learn to play like I have been 😄

Edited by Regenerating_Degenerate
;)
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Hello you

Would it be possible to scale damage, range, status and crit based on being able to solo Elite Sanctuary Onslaught to stage 9?

Purely using melee only, it should be possible, it all looks very lovely having your frame flap around one on one going through flash combos, but meanwhile that counter is ticking down, only by taking out 4-5 mobs per strike am I able to reach higher stages of ESO, or using Saryn obviously, but solo melee should be viable should it not?

I really hope soloing ESO using melee is factored in, after all there are still desirable drops at stage 8.

If you want to scale back melee based endurance runs fair enough, it'll push more peeps towards room camp setups that will still be valid but please don't forget ESO.

Thanks then. ☺️

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The rest of the changes need more info, which would be great to have, but you do realize you've buffed condition overload for the majority of button mashing players, which is what we were tryna avoid right?

Most people only get 3-4 procs currently by simply using the melee weapon and pressing EEEE, so you basically just buffed those styles you were tryna avoid. What you should be focusing on is the strategic tactic of stacking procs through use of your entire loadout. We recently got the ability to swap weapons very fluidly. We should be promoting that. Lowering the buff to +40% would make it so that strategic setup can get great power out of the mod, while button mashers will not benefit nearly as much as they do now.

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1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

And nothing of value is lost, given endless missions aren't supposed to go endlessly but reach a point where they eclipse a player's ability to continue.

Maybe for you nothing of value is lost, but for me it is.  Seeing how long I can last solo in a survival is one of the things I spend most of my time doing in this game.

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I am nothing short of giddy when I read these notes.
These are very exciting changes.

I've always felt these were to come, for many years.

I'm so F-ing proud of you DE!, for finally bringing these updates.
Sincerely, thank you all for your hard work.
I knew you'd get here.
I just knew you'd get here.
And I am so proud of you.

I look forward to trying So many weapons again in a new light.
Ones I've always wanted to love, but they didn't have a chance.
Thank you for not forgetting about us, and for all of your dedication.

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Look, I know you guys really wanna turn Warframe Melee into Devil May Cry, and watching the inevitable nerfs to Maiming Body Rush Overload is going to be freaking delicious, but remember what the principle gameplay of Devil May Cry is: high effort for high reward. Now look at Warframe: high grinding to reduce the effort for high reward. I'm not seeing a lot of comparability there

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Just now, Aekhon said:

Maybe for you nothing of value is lost, but for me it is.  Seeing how long I can last solo in a survival is one of the things I spend most of my time doing in this game.

Well, from what the devs have said in the past, they don't agree with you. I get that it feels bad for the part of the game you enjoy to be phased out, but it's ultimately for the betterment of the game's overall balance. I'd probably feel the same way as you if I were in your position, but it's ultimately a futile battle.

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3 minutes ago, Aekhon said:

Maybe for you nothing of value is lost, but for me it is.  Seeing how long I can last solo in a survival is one of the things I spend most of my time doing in this game.

I would normally side with you on this issue, but I'm pretty sure this won't hurt how long you can go to such an insane degree. Anything that could go 3+ hours before will probably still get you that far at least based on what we know so far.

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Ahh dedicated melee mode again, how i missed thee.

Surprised there are people that actually liked this new instant swap and auto blocking system. Well the instant swaps might still be there (Still think it looks really weird that the weapons you hold teleport to their "holster" and the weapon you want appears like magic in your hands) and auto-blocks that interrupted other actions, like if you run up to a enemy currently and try to do a heavy attack in hes face, all he has to do is shoot once to damage you (since its a %damage reduction) and interrupt your attack since you get forced into blocking.

This also means we'll be able to "aim glide" with melee weapons again 😄 good times.

 

Its a bit funny how that high rated post on the first page advocates the importance of blocking with a street fighter clip.. personally i feel more badass manually blocking dangers than having a system automatically doing it for me.

 

But now we have block on the aim key again, heavy melee on the old channeling key (is that still a locked keybind for controllers?) and normal attacks remains the same, but talk about a rage mode, i wonder if that will have trigger conditions because if its a manual keybind there will be more keys to bind, can get troublesome to work that into some keybind setups and a extra key to bind on controllers can also be troublesome, its quite packed already and any and future locked keybinds makes it harder to make a working setup.

 

Edit:

I see mod changes in the dev workshop, but no mention about the changes to Zenuriks channeling efficency, or Naramon(i think it is) special combo counter or arcanes related to the old systems (A lot of the Zaw ones are quite channeling oriented).

Edited by Shaderox

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We should be able to block with melee no matter what way we equipped it. Aiming to block is so counter intuitive to me. If I want to change back to my primary fast, just let me press F and switch back really fast as we do now by just aiming.

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The short dodges, I love it.
The Attack Cancels?! I LOVE IT!!
Juggling, retooling channel, range stat in menus!

Oh man.

You guys just let me use my Shaku.
Oh Man! That just dawned on me!
HAMMERS. O_O
OMFG.

Yes. Yes, and thank you, and yes.

You guys don't even Know.
I have waited for this moment for years.

Thousands of hours in missions wanting some of these things.
This is blowing my mind, and I am very grateful.

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3 hours ago, Ramflare said:

Definitely worth noting the skana in the devstream had something like 0.6  0.8 attack speed so of course it looks slower, we'll have to wait and see. Crimson dervish is already a slow/janky looking stance so it's probably about the same

also to know it got i think roughly a 350% damage increase from 24 slash to 84 

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Heavy attacks will only be worth it on weapons with low status and crit chance, meaning, stuff we'd literally never bring into a high level mission to kill with. 

The benefits from blood rush or weeping wounds is simply far, far too great to bother ever wanting to spend on heavy attacks. I guarantee you, in high leveled missions, as it is now, unless you absolutely need something like a demolyst in disruption dead, you'll never use it.

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Please allow Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush to scale on non heavy attacks if the damage doesn't scale properly on release. That seems like a good compromise, allowing for the niche of holding onto combo being a thing.

If not, allow Power Spike to decay combo counter by a fixed amount rather than drop all the stacks, so that that heavy attacks become the primary means to 1 shot heavy units with consecutive uses, while combo stacked regular combos become the means to deal with fodder. A hybrid of the two systems might be ideal.

Alternatively, thinking forward, allow "Rage Mode" to scale the weaker hits and let there be an applicable rage mode to guns as well. Long Live Void Trigger.

Edited by Azimbee
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At least blood rush and co weren't nerded into the ground as it seems. Hope they won't be heavy attacks only.

Life strike should have a bit of lifesteal on normal attacks too

 

Also how will this affect gunblades?

 

Edited by (XB1)AntiCaesar

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7 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come.

please no 😞 this was such a unique, powerful, useful thing. You could finally properly combo pistols and melee weapons and etc.

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2 points and a question:

Melee and mobility:  Slide attacks are not solely used for maiming strike and "spin to win" but also for mobility.  Beyond the issue of armor scaling, enemy damage scaling in this game nearly outright prevents most players from bringing anything other than tank frames into things like arbitration with an expectation to stay for very long because even regular enemies at a moderately high level can straight up one-shot a frame that isn't specced entirely for survivability at the expense of modding for abilities.  The only way around this is high mobility, and if you want to attack while remaining highly mobile, slide attacks are where it's at.  Good looking, stylish more "warframe" melee combos aren't going to prevent your death unless the speed and damage on every weapon is getting a beyond game-breaking buff so that there's nothing left to one-shot you.  The extremely high mobility of slide attacks is just as important in something like arbitration as is the damage it currently has with maiming strike/blood rush.


Crit re-balancing:  Those insanely high red crits that we all know and love aren't necessary for regular starchart.  Or most alerts, events or new content.  Or the majority of content in the game.  That being said, arbitration, ESO, endless mission farms, the ludicrously scaling armor of enemy units, and the upcoming wreck-your-face Kuva Liches are all things that either require, or look like they'll require really heavy damage.  ESO is a game type that where it is mandatory to either have a nuke frame or have guns that can kill enemies in just a few seconds; the point of the mode is literally kill efficiency.  You can't have a mode literally about kill efficiency in the game and then complain when players find the most efficient way to kill things, and then spec for that over "style".  The cries of DE associated personnel and certain players of nerfing this new hot gun or mod or whatever always seem like they're coming from people that think the game should be balanced around starchart.  With the current systems in place you cannot balance the game for both starchart and "endgame" content.  If you can last over an hour in arbitration the rest of the game is a joke.  If the rest of the game (with systems in their current state) is challenging, you cannot last an hour in arbitration.  Without a massive overhaul to many of the games core mechanics it's just not possible. 

I said all of that to say this:  Even without seeing final numbers, the change in the way certain mods work, mainly blood rush and maiming strike, looks like a very hard nerf.  Currently, a weapon with 25% CC with MS and BR with a x2 combo will give you 495.5% CC.  Nearly 500% Crit chance.  An almost 2,000% increase of the base, with those 2 mods and your combo counter at x2, which is easy to get.  Will the final numbers give even remotely close to that much of an increase?  Because those numbers are needed to even have a chance against a never ending hoard of enemies with insane damage and insane armor.  People see 500% CC and think that it's not needed, but forget that a sortie 3 level heavy gunner has 7,000+ armor, and 96% damage reduction.  Those insane crit numbers are the only thing that separates melee crit weapons from being useless in high level content.  I find it very hard to believe that the base weapon buff combined with literally any combination of mods and combos will allow for effective, efficient kills from crit melee weapons against high level enemies with these nerfs.  When you add this to the fact that you will be losing mobility by being stuck in combos, focusing on smaller groups of enemies rather than sideswiping whole packs on the move, players that focus on melee are going to have a much harder time in high level content.  I'm not reserving judgement until I play it this time simply because I've seen the combos in action on the dev stream.  Taking out a handful of low level enemies should not take that long.  The combos look great, but are far too slow when you've got 20 enemies on screen with perfect accuracy and they're all looking at you.  The combos are far too slow to keep efficiency up in ESO or stem the tide of enemies in arbitration.  Time to kill is important in high level play.  Strong and cool mean nothing if they don't have the efficient mechanics required by the game (I need to stress this.  Beyond ESO's literal efficiency mechanic, being able to kill quickly to keep up life support or defend a fragile point is a requirement of high level play if you want to go back to your orbiter successful.) to back it up.  Unless there's some absolutely drastic changes (beyond a hard buff to base stats) that I missed, melee use is going to drop off hard in high level content while probably spiking higher in lower level missions, because that's what it's being balanced for.

Condition Overload change question:  Will the now limited 3 stacks for CO still be exponential in their damage calculation like they currently are, and still effect total damage and not base?  If not, this is possibly the hardest nerf you've put in the game to date.  (to clarify for the uninformed:  currently, 1 status with CO will give you 60% extra total damage.  2 statuses is not an extra 120%, it's an extra 156% as it's exponential.  3 statuses are an extra 310% total damage.  A 100% status weapon with IPS and 2 combined elements can give you 5 total statuses by itself, assuming the enemy lives that long, which is an extra 949% total damage.  Not base, total.  This is pulled directly from the wiki.)

It's a hard nerf regardless considering how easy it currently is to stack several statuses on an enemy and gain enough damage to compete with current crit weapons.  For as much as I typed out for the crit nerf, honestly this one hurts more, even if the damage IS still exponential.  Fast, status heavy weapons with CO were the melee weapons with the fastest time-to-kill without building combo first.  Without building combo counter, just using melee in concert with your guns, CO weapons were the MOST effective backup weapon you could have.  If this is as hard of a nerf as I suspect it might be (no longer being exponential.) then this completely kills any hype I had for the melee update, and will probably kill status weapons in general.  Most status guns (bleed procs aside, even though those are used more by crit that status.) aren't even effective in high level content for anything other than armor strip or building status for CO (see Boltor Prime completely power crept out of existence.)  Even if the damage calc for this mod stays the same and just caps at 3, it's not just a nerf to status melee, it's a nerf to the usefulness of status guns as well, since you won't be using them to stack status anymore, unless you're stacking it for a CO/crit melee with no status chance of its own.

The new animations look great.  Plenty about the melee rework looks good, and the upcoming mainline looks like it will be a lot of fun.  I honestly came into this thread with hype, especially after it was clearly stated during the stream that "spin to win isn't going anywhere, we're just raising everything up to meet it."  That doesn't look true from these notes.  It looks like a nerf for the strongest mods, all being balanced for lower level content, where they are currently beyond overpowered. The thing is, until you finally do something about enemy scaling, that OP strength will be necessary for high level content, and it doesn't look like we're getting to keep it.

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