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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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I really appreciate the change of removing the ragdoll effect of slam attacks; it's always been annoying trying to close in on an enemy with it only to knock them away.

I had already mentioned this in a previous post, but i would also love to see the addition of a mechanic where, while you are in midair and aiming directly at an enemy below you, you can hold down the melee key to slam directly into them, knock them to the ground, and preform a ground finisher. This would be similar to how you can preform a standing melee finisher on an un-alerted enemy by holding the melee key.

Ground finishers can only be preformed on enemies that have been knocked to the ground, and the best way to knock an enemy to the ground (besides the blast status effect) is a slam attack, so it seems like it would make sense to smoothly combine the two. 

Overall amazing work DE, i'm really looking forward to trying things out after the update!

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I'm gonna start this post by totally agreeing with the CONDITION OVERLOAD / MAIMING STRIKE changes:

"The change is bufffing it for the button mashers". Good...I'm tired of "endurance" purists with their 7 status loadouts looking down on me for enjoying the game. CO is a melee mod...everything it does and requires is and always should've been melee. I don't like being locked into using specific secondaries just to maximize damage of a totally different weapon. I don't like stat-sticks, period.
I want to slash some enemies with a flashy combo, throw them across the room, pull out a revolver and finish them with a headshot or vice-versa...however I feel like and please. That is fun!

The 7 stat cult was created based on a totally different issue and that is enemy scaling. Yes...I understand that past level x00 tactics such as this are needed, but my argument to that has always been "What's the point?".
Rewards scaling has been awful since forever...it's been established long ago that DE doesn't know how to make "rewarding rewards" and reasons to push the limits of builds. Scaling enemies exponentially is not a reason to warrant a required loadout/playstyle. You should be able to find a playstyle/loadout that you like in order to deal with thougher enemies. 
The highest level enemies most players meet are the 100, 120 from sorties. On the rare occasions you go into a longer arbi session you might reach 300+ but those are outliers...exceptions...not rules. I referrenced these examples as potential objectives for players...like a reason to play and encounter such high level enemies besides the "just because I can". 
Don't even bring "world records" with enemies in the thousands level range into discussion because those only exist by "abusing"(not necessarily in a bad sense) invisibility/lockdown/one hit kill mechanics (Ivara + Sleep Arrow + Covert Lethality dagger). At that point you're not "playing" the game, you're doing something that maybe 1% of the playerbase would ever think of. Is it cool? I guess. Is it representative of actual gameplay? Heck no.

Ah, if these changes succeded a rewards revamp that actually needed me to encounter extra high level enemies, then the discussion would be different alltogether. Until then, I'm not going to complain about an issue that is literally non-existent for the majority of players.

The same thing goes for MAIMING STRIKE. Most actual crit builds have been invalidated by this mod. It was a mistake from the get go...how the devs could not predict a spin to win meta when releasing a mod with 90% ADDITIVE CRIT CHANCE is beyond me, but alas, it's happened and it's going away more or less...or rather, the entire melee system is getting buffed to a similar level so that "spin to win" is a choice not a requirement.
Side note: Look at the market price of MS, panic sales have started already.

There's a bigger discussion to have here regarding availability as well but I won't go into detail, I'll just say this: after making this mod terribly OP...DE did us one better and made it sorta exclusive this year. That led to the absurd 300+plat prices for it...like seriously? 

 

People seem to whine before having experienced the changes. Some just whine about their Maiming Strikes and Condition Overloads and completely disregard the new heavy attack mechanic and mod changes that open up paths to new builds. I will point out though that the info on the actual changes is pretty scarce for an update that's supposed to drop next week/ the week after at worst. 

With that said though I like the direction of normalizing melee weapons.If it works correctly, this should bring back variety and personal preference and move away from 2-3 meta weapons. Of course there might still be some weapons better than others, but if the differences are neglijable at best, it will be fine. But that's to be seen once the update hits. Until then, I'm eager to try it with an open mind and make my mind accordingly.

One suggestion I have though. Seeing that there is now an emphasis on "Lifting" status and aerial combos, why not have a charged bullet jump that would pull some enemies in the air. Maybe have the same angle as the dodge. That could lead to some more fluid transitions between the staple of movement in this game, the bullet-jump, and the actual melee combat.

Edited by DeLawrence
Weird spoiler action
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How many "Lift" status can we chain between players? How long does it last and can we extend it's duration? Which mods can make it last longer or is there new one being create? Is there any diminishing return?

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I'd like to comment on reload speed not being one of the primary & secondary exilus mods. Why? Reload Speed really kills alot of guns for me in this game & having a slot for reload speed would've finally fixed alot of my problems.

 

Also, I tried finding the right forum for this, but it just wasn't there.

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Stamina bar/ "dizzyness" on slide attacks? 4 or 5 spins in a row makes them stagger and wobble. 

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Will we finally get to see the range of a weapon or will we have to keep relying on shady tests?

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Really glad to see dedicated melee mode coming back. Could you also bring back a dedicated keybind for melee/ranged(hybrid) mode switch along with "hold gun switch key to equip melee"? 

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21 minutes ago, SafeRoom said:

I'd like to comment on reload speed not being one of the primary & secondary exilus mods. Why? Reload Speed really kills alot of guns for me in this game & having a slot for reload speed would've finally fixed alot of my problems.

 

Also, I tried finding the right forum for this, but it just wasn't there.

They said that these exilus mods aren't meant to improve overal DPS, and reload speed directly affects DPS, even more because of the primed reload mods, those would mean a LOT of DPS. Primed QuickDraw is 88%+ and would turn a 3 seconds reload into 1.59 seconds (due to how reload mods work), that is too big of an increase.

Edited by HolySeraphin
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3 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

They said that these exilus mods aren't meant to improve overal DPS, and reload speed directly affects DPS, even more because of the primed reload mods, those would mean a LOT of DPS. Primed QuickDraw is 88%+ and would turn a 3 seconds reload into 1.59 seconds (due to how reload mods work), that is too big of an increase.

But still though. Some guns like the Exergis or the Tigris literally require a reload speed mod at the cost of damage due to having to reload them so many times. The only way to make them playable is with a Riven which people shouldn't have to do.

Edited by SafeRoom

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This is a amazing opportunity to make naramon less mandatory for melee. Right now Power Spike is basically required for endgame melee. It would be nice to change to one of the cooler Schools :<

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Overall this update looks really cool. There are two things that come to mind which I am sure have been mentioned in regard too melee combat. That is the subject of blocking while in dedicated melee mode and juggling enemies. Both are awesome additions; however, my slight concerns with these to start off, to perform melee block you have to be in melee mode first before you can start blocking. Without a form of holster speed this could destroy players not being able to recover in those O!s#$% situations having to first swap between fire mode and melee mode before they can start blocking. Second, when melee juggle occurs it only appears to affect one target which makes sense I suppose, but the issue I have is while I am juggling the enemy there are typically many more of them around me probably shooting me. Dedicating myself to this without any form of damage mitigation while performing action may cause players not to attempt it often due to the risk of being one shot while in the motion. At least in group fights which we are in majority of the time.

Again overall both are great additions.

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How come no one is talking about the potential for squad juggling rooms? once the enemy is up, it reads like anyone can just juggle it, sure the state of reach is debatable now, but that doesn't mean a coordinated squad is gonna be incapable of juggling rooms where enemy's rarely if not never touch the ground

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without numbers and testing on some of this i'm not going to voice anything more than mild concern, but i will retain a cautious optimism.

Overall i'm very interested in what this will do and mean and i can't wait.

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Finally the melee 3.0 phase 2 workshop is here (or is it 2.998?)

I am liking the changes proposed so far, and am glad you are nerfing some of the mechanics and mods to balance things out,feels like it's been a long time coming. 

But I am concerned on how they will be in the dps department compared to the guns that exist. 

Guess that will only be clear once we actually play.

The lift status is really interesting, can see some tactical use for it and will be happy to have some ready at hand CC capability in a melee. 

Glaives getting a means to increase combo counter with thrown attacks and blocks is nice. 

An actual Range identifier was a long time coming, just glad to see it. 

@[DE]Bear some questions if you don't mind answering. 

Could you highlight if exilus slots will be shipping as well and what mods would be considered exilus? Or is it going to be a later addition? 

Will there also be changes to some of the warframe augments that affect melee attacks or their exalted weapon? (bladestorm, primal fury come to the top of my head) 

How will the "stat stick" abilities of Atlas, khora, Gara be affected? As they don't have any heavy attack option (as of now). 

I am seeing a Distinct lack of wall attack in the stat pic. I don't think anyone used that attack except accidentally, is it gone from the game or just from the stat page?  

 

And thanks for the workshop page, it helped clarify a lot of the doubts I was having. 

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8 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

MP2-HeavySlamAttacks.gif

During the dev stream I had trouble identifying where the target was every time this move was executed. Even in this GIF form, I keep losing track of the enemy in the first second after the slam. Can the effect be tweaked to not have so many big physical rocks in the middle? It reminds me of using Gara in Orb Vallis while aiming down the sights.

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7 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

All in all this rework looks pretty incredible I must say.  As someone I think at least slightly influenced Melee 2.x,There is only one core suggestion I have:

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is another clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 


Imagine a combat scenario where a Tenno is highly engaged with the enemy.  Suddenly, a huge attack comes barrelling towards them and they do not have time to dodge.  Only block.  What sounds more fun and natural to you:

A) At the last moment the Tenno stops firing his/her gun and brings up their arms in the nick of time to block the attack.  Perhaps timing the block could lead to parries.

B) The Tenno has to stop firing their weapon, put it away, wait for their melee weapon to get pulled out, and then block.  If they have the time to do this you know what they could have also done?  Just about anything else in the game including moving out of the way thereby defeating the point of blocking.

Again the rework looks f**king AMAZING.  It does truly.  However, until DE discards the notion of dedicated firearms/melee modes completely and amps up the challenge of the game in general... Warframe will always be playing 2nd fiddle to its own 1st rate potential.

Lastly, DE could literally create the most eloquent, complex, and incredible combat system known to man. However, if the enemies remain stuck as ants we crush with hammers, all this work to make combat more engaging becomes a moot point.  We are still hammers crushing ants and combos and in depth combat is a distant option to nuking dumb, enfeebled enemies that literally run to their slaughter

Love you guys, the game you make, and the work you do.  🙂

Wait a sec; don't you still have the autoblock? you can just press quick-melee and instantly block it

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58 minutes ago, DeLawrence said:

I'm gonna start this post by totally agreeing with the CONDITION OVERLOAD / MAIMING STRIKE changes:

"The change is bufffing it for the button mashers". Good...I'm tired of "endurance" purists with their 7 status loadouts looking down on me for enjoying the game. CO is a melee mod...everything it does and requires is and always should've been melee. I don't like being locked into using specific secondaries just to maximize damage of a totally different weapon. I don't like stat-sticks, period.
I want to slash some enemies with a flashy combo, throw them across the room, pull out a revolver and finish them with a headshot or vice-versa...however I feel like and please. That is fun!

The 7 stat cult was created based on a totally different issue and that is enemy scaling. Yes...I understand that past level x00 tactics such as this are needed, but my argument to that has always been "What's the point?".
Rewards scaling has been awful since forever...it's been established long ago that DE doesn't know how to make "rewarding rewards" and reasons to push the limits of builds. Scaling enemies exponentially is not a reason to warrant a required loadout/playstyle. You should be able to find a playstyle/loadout that you like in order to deal with thougher enemies. 
The highest level enemies most players meet are the 100, 120 from sorties. On the rare occasions you go into a longer arbi session you might reach 300+ but those are outliers...exceptions...not rules. I referrenced these examples as potential objectives for players...like a reason to play and encounter such high level enemies besides the "just because I can". 
Don't even bring "world records" with enemies in the thousands level range into discussion because those only exist by "abusing"(not necessarily in a bad sense) invisibility/lockdown/one hit kill mechanics (Ivara + Sleep Arrow + Covert Lethality dagger). At that point you're not "playing" the game, you're doing something that maybe 1% of the playerbase would ever think of. Is it cool? I guess. Is it representative of actual gameplay? Heck no.

Ah, if these changes succeded a rewards revamp that actually needed me to encounter extra high level enemies, then the discussion would be different alltogether. Until then, I'm not going to complain about an issue that is literally non-existent for the majority of players.

The same thing goes for MAIMING STRIKE. Most actual crit builds have been invalidated by this mod. It was a mistake from the get go...how the devs could not predict a spin to win meta when releasing a mod with 90% ADDITIVE CRIT CHANCE is beyond me, but alas, it's happened and it's going away more or less...or rather, the entire melee system is getting buffed to a similar level so that "spin to win" is a choice not a requirement.
Side note: Look at the market price of MS, panic sales have started already.

There's a bigger discussion to have here regarding availability as well but I won't go into detail, I'll just say this: after making this mod terribly OP...DE did us one better and made it sorta exclusive this year. That led to the absurd 300+plat prices for it...like seriously? 

 

People seem to whine before having experienced the changes. Some just whine about their Maiming Strikes and Condition Overloads and completely disregard the new heavy attack mechanic and mod changes that open up paths to new builds. I will point out though that the info on the actual changes is pretty scarce for an update that's supposed to drop next week/ the week after at worst. 

With that said though I like the direction of normalizing melee weapons.If it works correctly, this should bring back variety and personal preference and move away from 2-3 meta weapons. Of course there might still be some weapons better than others, but if the differences are neglijable at best, it will be fine. But that's to be seen once the update hits. Until then, I'm eager to try it with an open mind and make my mind accordingly.

One suggestion I have though. Seeing that there is now an emphasis on "Lifting" status and aerial combos, why not have a charged bullet jump that would pull some enemies in the air. Maybe have the same angle as the dodge. That could lead to some more fluid transitions between the staple of movement in this game, the bullet-jump, and the actual melee combat.

You are not locked into the meta just because it exists.  You are locked out of a build when it gets nerfed, however.  That is NOT fun, at least not to me, since it's subjective.

Also, ESO, a mode that is literally based around getting kills efficiently, exists.  Removing efficiency in killing for endless missions and long arbitrations might not matter to YOU (again, subjective.  No player should get to decide what content another player enjoys.) but it is directly counter to a game mode that DE put in.  Removing a group-wiping melee meta like BR/MS melee builds, and removing super high CO damage for people that want to utilize all their weapons only reinforces nuke frame meta for ESO and other game modes where you need to kill quickly.  The weapon buffs might be strong, and the combos might be fun, but that does not mean they will be faster or even as fast at killing, which is needed for several game modes.  And while the changes might look fun to YOU, I like speed and they do not look fun to me.  Nerfs will slow me down and ruin my fun, because I guarantee the new combos will not be as fast or as strong, if they were, they wouldn't need nerfs to these mods.  Things not being nerfed do NOT affect you in any way what so ever, other than you're going to get left in the dust in pub.

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  • sounds like the current 'instant switch' will stay as it is but we'll be able to opt into manual Blocking, ok that can work.
    • but, will Blocking still STUNLOCK us? because that's a much larger problem, that Blocking of any sort has always interrupted our actions and with instant switch means that we can be prevented from doing most Offensive actions while we are being hit. so a single dude with an Assault Rifle can prevent you from attacking him if the Auto Blocking triggers.....
      the solution is so simple. just treat Blocking as a 'one handed' action so that it doesn't interrupt what we're doing. we can't interrupt Enemies as it is anyways, literally the only way to interrupt them is death. so if we can't them, why can they us.
  • could there possibly be a way to force Rolling while Blocking go the normal distance? such as if you're Sprinting while you do it? something like that. 
  • we're still going to have 'Air Melee', right? the Animations changing is w/e, so long as we'll still be able to accelerate ourselves in a direction with Melee while in the Air, like we currently can.
    • this is... a pretty core part to Parkour, and losing it would not be a good decision.
  • rather than just removing Ragdolling from Ground Smashes, could we just have both? can be as simple as tap/hold so that both options are available. doesn't fit quite as nicely with the Alt-Fire related features... but i think this can still work. one option would be rather than using an Alt-Fire, having a.... 'Channeling' button. while holding you do the other type of action. also leaves room for the Ragdolling then. hold one, both, or none for 4 distinct actions.
    • i know that Channeling is still going to exist in an alternate form, but there's no details about it at all so i have to just assume it to not exist in making this suggestion.

Mods:

  • so does that mean Blood Rush will use an actually sane Formula, or not? stacking Multiplier, ahuh, but what type of Multiplier? hopefully changing to exclude Flat Value additions to Crit Chance?
  • 'anti-meta' changing Condition Overload like this is just going to make the Mod feel less cool to use, regardless of the value of each Status Effect. because it's only 3, and currently Players are encouraged to try an carry/apply many Status Effects. why... can't you guys just use an actually sane formula, but still let the Player have the interactive encouragement of applying as many Status Effects as they can. 
    • instead of an Exponential Final Multiplier, make it either an Exponential Base Damage Bonus or a Linear Final Multiplier.
  • the Gladiator Set sounds useful, but.... it was nice for there to be a way to get a Blood Rush like effect, without it? and the tradeoff there it being much lower strength.
  • why would you change Maiming Strike? just. make. Blood. Rush. not. Multiply. it.
    it's so freaking simple. the only problem it causes is that Blood Rush Multiplies it. outside of that, it provides a Utility of letting non Crit Weapons still get a Crit, on the slowest&longest attack type that there is.
    if you make it an Additive Bonus rather than a Flat Value, it will literally be useless, and it won't do the one thing that you literally created the Mod for.
    • or, you could just change Blood Rush to not Multiply it and leave Maiming Strike as is. honestly if that's not what happens, i'm going to have to seriously question the Mathematical understanding of everyone that's working on these changes. are you just randomly changing every number you can find to see if that achieves the target goal? it's common knowledge on how all of the numbers interact, i would think.
  • Weeping Wounds sounds like it's going to be significantly weaker - it's currently the only option other than stacking Status Elementals because you can keep increasing Status.
    is 60% the strongest value the Mod can offer? or are we talking about stacking the value up to 60% and then applying that value multiple times?
    we have to be able to apply the value multiples times in order for the Mod to be useful.
    otherwise we're just forced to use Status Elementals on everything, dramatically reducing Mod Loadout varieties (which based on precedence is maybe the intention, with Weapons being pushed to trying to make them all use the same Mods, and newer Warframe designs making some Mods useless so that people all use the same Mods).

 

 

please add some linebreaks to the Arsenal Stats Block being shown there. just like the Arsenal has needed essentially forever - please split the giant block of words into 3-4 different groups that are of like Stats.

for example, please do something like this:

Quote

Attack Speed
Range
Blocking Angle
Combo Duration

Crit Chance
Crit Damage
Status Chance

Follow Through
Slam Attack
Slam Radial Damage
Slam Radius
Slide Attack

Heavy Attack 
Heavy Attack Wind up
Heavy Slam Radial Damage
Heavy Slam Radius

Impact
Puncture
Slash
Elements

take this as an opportunity to make the Arsenal more legible.
if your Designers don't agree, i'm sorry, but they are incorrect. between several Family Members that work in Publishing, Post Production and Web Design, and i myself having worked in Web Design, having done Publishing in the past, and having User Interface Design experience myself - this is just the standard way to display information. spacing is so crucial to the legibility of information.
don't make blocks of stuff. you wouldn't do it when writing a paper or writing a book or making any Forum Posts here, so why do you do it with the User Interface?

on the upside, tabs for Arsenal sections is an improvement!
i kinda want the Arsenal to include all things we can Equip tbh, so that i can't inadvertently have the wrong things Equipped, but whether that's the right option or not isn't as clear since that's quite preferential. (though having Amps/Spacekid Arcanes be tied to Arsenal Loadouts just seems like a logical thing to me, idk)

Edited by taiiat
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Based on my experience with melee weapons, the reason spin-to-win is a popular strategy is because it is a very consistent way of dealing damage and also gives a lot of mobility. After a certain point, melee weapons ends up being able to 1 shot most enemies, which is why spin-to-win with it's mobility will let you move all over the place killing enemies with the least effort possible. If you really want people to stop using spin-to-win, add combos for all weapons that will let the player to move fast while dealing consistent damage.

Even without maiming strike, spin-to-win is still the most effective way on long range weapons. 

I have Gram prime with a good riven on it but i still prefer my Cassowar because of it's range, attack speed and the mobility the spin-to-win gives with it.

Edited by Loshirai14
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8 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 

 

Button mashing's back on the menu boys! Honestly glad to see the quick repeating combos comeback. 

How will the changes affect various stat sticks (Atlas/Gara/Khora)?

 

 

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This has me kinda concerned because it just seems melee scaling will be tossed out of the window and we will no longer have any way to deal with high level enemies or the demolysts. And if channeling is getting tossed then what is gonna happen to the Prime armor channeling effects? Please tell me you do not plan on removing them.

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I'm just gonna say, I'm looking forward to changes.

I expect a lot of discussion about Warframe for the next few weeks are going to be "DE ruined WF by nerfing my killstick".

I say, bring it.

I can't think of anything more annoying that a Volt with Atterax and a macro spin combo flying around me, one-shotting everything. You are very optimal, unnamed Volt, but do you enjoy the game at this point? Mashing one button again and again, the screen flying by so fast you can barely make out the level?

I haven't used Maiming strike in a couple of years. Melee at this point is "Press E to Win" button. Not "Press E to have fun". There's just no challenge. The most satisfying moments I had in WF (after 4.5k+ hours) were not seeing a rain of red crits, but pulling off a chunky ground slam or an accidental Saryn-Void-Dash combo that sent a Spored-up Grineer flying into another room, had him explode on landing and infect 20 other dudes. I remember that random moment from ESO from months ago more than most things I did in the game.

Warframes biggest problem is not even so much content drought, as it is stagnation. Why engage with new content when you have your super-opti-maxed spin-to-win 35-roll-riven arcane-stack build? "Lol DE brought out a new weapons but it's lower stats than Plague Kripath Zaw, useless content, what are they doing." Tatsu doesn't have the best stats in the world. But hot wisp's ass damn, does that weapon feel satisfying to swing around. I'm still basically unkillable, because this is Warframe. I'm killing enemies fast enough. I complete the missions. But I FEEL every swing of Tatsu, where's the Atterax spin attack makes me nautious. I'd rather enemies die two seconds later while I get an immense satisfaction from it, than "optimizing" my way through the game, cutting off every second and adding up every damage bonus while feeling empty inside.

New melee phase, new horizons, new meta to figure out. There will always be new meta. You optimized boiis will optimize away. But at least so far this update seems to be adding more satisfaction and fun to the game.

And games are about having fun.

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