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[DE]Bear

Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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3 hours ago, VruxVrango said:

How come no one is talking about the potential for squad juggling rooms? once the enemy is up, it reads like anyone can just juggle it, sure the state of reach is debatable now, but that doesn't mean a coordinated squad is gonna be incapable of juggling rooms where enemy's rarely if not never touch the ground

the enemies will end up dying before you start juggling them lol

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1 hour ago, gabuchan said:

As a melee fanatic, I dig this. Are there nerfs inbound? Probably. But anything to make the gameplay less braindead ez with melee is good by me. It was too ridiculous and the game needed some semblance of balance.

wtf are you on about? this changes make melee more braindead than it already is and less effective too xd...

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I see no mention of what happens when I fire in melee mode or what happened to spin attack bonus damage, or if gun mode still does the autoblock. I like the fix for melee carry(what about primary only will that work without dropping item in glide someday?), gear items and aim glide. There is no use to a holster animation and I'd rather have an instant block from gun mode, here is still a more tactical way to use both at once: holding F in gun mode or quick melee will immediately block for the duration and switch to melee mode, there will be no delay or holster animation. Firing in melee will just fire and switch to gun/quick. holding F in melee will bring back gun without firing. This way we can swap in defensive or tactical moments. Also as it has no function currently, holding reload to swap to gun / cancel reload early(useful for long reload weapons). No idea what of this is compatible with controllers, but you have to design around their limitations as well anyway. Also perhaps the only place I can see use for holster animations is heavy gun/ melee swapping and this would be the only non-instant swap. Heavy guns are really buggy and anything that forces us out of gun stance can easily bork them or make powers unusable, hence melee mode is a logical save from forced cancel cooldowns and bugs.

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Il y a 12 heures, [DE]Bear a dit :

Spin attacks still exist, but the repetition of them is something we’re trying not to force you to use. To reiterate: Select tools made Spin attacks optimal at the cost of the more interesting Melee system, and we’re trying to rectify that.

Huge mistake here. You didn't get why people keep spamming spin attacks. It's not only because they deal huge damage, one can use any kind of attack to kill efficiently. It's only because spin attacks can be spammed and basically exploit its fast animation to move faster. Nothing you've implemented will change that cause spin-2-win will still be faster (and lazier).

Not sure you're playing the game along with other players at this point cause this thing is an exploit and make fully geared players sliding through entire tilesets faster than a Gauss on drugs without even bothering about aiming at anything, leaving all enemies dead.

Once again, it's no gameplay, it's an exploit and should be fixed at once. Perhaps looking at macros could help. Debating about damages isn't much relevant since everything dies at low/mid levels range - it's only about animation.

Quite ironically instead of solving this issue you even made it worse with this update cause no one needs combo counters anymore so building for damage and speed only will be easier, spin-2-winners won't even need combo counters to buff their damages thus they can start to maul everything sooner. 🙄

Edited by 000l000

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8 hours ago, kyori said:

Go do your math when you are able to reach and fight enemies beyond level 600.

ur not meant to fight past lvl 100, prove me wrong

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New features and gameplay improvements are great though nerfing one of the most exciting, deep and fun to use mechanics that actually require some effort to utilize \ build around like Condition Overload is such a disappointing thing.

It makes different weapon combinations and weapon switching pointless with this change.

 

There are a lot of base damage mods that add no depth to the game at all feel free to change \ rework them.

 

By the way Life strike is one of the few things that keeps squishy frames barely alive on a higher level and they already need to spend at least 3-4 warframe mods to not die instantly besides Life strike.

Hope that update will not kill them by forcing us to play only tanky \ nuker warframes.

Edited by She11by
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il y a 1 minute, (PS4)Spider_Enigma a dit :

ur not meant to fight past lvl 100, prove me wrong

Legit high level is around 120-140, if one is staying enough time in arbitrations or doing some Kuva survival. Everything beyond this point is ridiculous and is all but relevant. Especially since you have to rely upon broken mechanics to kill efficiently at absurd levels, thus it shouldn't be even be discussed unless to prove what's wrong in Warframe's balance department.

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2 minutes ago, She11by said:

New features and gameplay improvements are great though nerfing one of the most exciting, deep and fun to use mechanics that actually require some effort to utilize \ build around like Condition Overload is such a disappointing thing.

It makes different weapon combinations and weapon switching pointless with this change.

 

There are a lot of base damage mods that add no depth to the game at all feel free to change \ rework them.

 

By the way Life strike is one of the few things that keep squishy frames barely alive on a higher level and they already need to spend at least 3-4 warframe mods to not die instantly besides Life strike.

Hope that update will not kill them by forcing us to play only tanky \ nuker warframes.

by higher levels what do u mean?

level 200? cause thats meant to kill everything  not just ur loki 

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2 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Legit high level is around 120-140, if one is staying enough time in arbitrations or doing some Kuva survival. Everything beyond this point is ridiculous and is all but relevant. Especially since you have to rely upon broken mechanics to kill efficiently at absurd levels, thus it shouldn't be even be discussed unless to prove what's wrong in Warframe's balance department.

how long does it take to get to 140 in kuva survival ? more then 1 hour? if so then ur meant to die

the devs expect players to leave the mission at the 30 min "bite sized content" mark 

Edited by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

how long does it take to get to 140 in kuva survival ? more then 1 hour? if so then ur meant to die 

You can kill everything over level 200 easily,, there is people killing everything with a sniper without a riven and over 7 hours.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

CO will do more damage per status...

And will be limited to max 3 status effects

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@[DE]Bear Sorry for being redundant if this has been asked before but what about melee riven disposition rebalance since you've updated every single melee weapon stats ?

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il y a 9 minutes, (PS4)Spider_Enigma a dit :

how long does it take to get to 140 in kuva survival ? more then 1 hour? if so then ur meant to die

the devs expect players to leave the mission at the 30 min "bite sized content" mark 

Arbitrations rotation timer is one hour and start at a way higher level.

I don't mind debating but don't think you're in devs mind. You're not.

Edited by 000l000

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Just now, goomowiec said:

And will be limited to max 3 status effects

if u get 60% now, per status and get 5 status thats 300% correct?

what if the base damage is now 3x the amount(witch has been proven to be the case in this thread alone)? and co now does 120% per status? is it then a nurf?

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I have not tried this yet, so I'm trying to remain optimistic but I do have a sincere concern about the loss of combo counter damage multiplier.

unless damage is getting an overall 3X buff (the current reasonable max for combo buff, you can get much higher with naramon, but that's a whole different thing, which is likely to need touching)... then enemy armor scaling is going to more or less make melee no longer a viable option to use in long arbitrations.  this is because arbitrations require melee nuking to really do anything after the 60 min mark for a pug, which will discourage pug play and only premades will have the option of going this long or longer due to enemy armor scaling.

effectively it will kill this portion of the game from a pug standpoint which is currently one that I find more enjoyable as the vet with 5.7k+ hours.

once you get to about the 45 min mark enemy armor starts getting dumb to deal with and saryn is only so tanky and arb drones effectively mess up her spores to strip armor.

this, on it's face, looks a lot like "sorry, get out" and forces everyone into using magus lockdown as the only viable alternative at that level, which is still very poor at armored units like grineer.

I felt the recent arbitration changes were all very good, but this just seems to revert it back to the old state where people are going to return to only playing certain ones again.

the whole point of the combo counter is that as enemies get tougher (ie, you are no longer one shotting them), you start dealing more damage comparatively (because they remain on the screen longer and thus your combo counter fills up quicker).  right now this system works for the player.  the future system, while I haven't tried it, seems to work against the player in these modes.  

the only viable solution I can see here is that armor scaling needs to be fixed hasta pronto to compensate for this, otherwise we're going to basically be forced out of these missions because while all the fancy new animations are nice and engaging, they are also time consuming which means less speed murder, and more exposure to enemy attacks that do significantly larger amounts of damage.

the other major concern is that range to long weapons get a significant nerf.  right now this is the only thing that makes melee worth using, and further, it's the only thing that keeps saryn in check in that people can outdamage saryn with melee regardless of what frame they have if they invest in melee properly.  slight nerfs to long range and massive buffs to short would be ideal, but killing long range means saryn becomes mandatory for all arbs with any armor, and she's too squishy to go the distance, which will also call for even more saryn nerfs and eventually long arbs becoming a thing of the past.

If my prediction is correct, arbitration will start seeing much less engagement and a lot of your endgame folk retention will start to suffer drastically (as this is the only place we really have to go to atm because there is no other content for us other than endurance runs in arbs) unless this gets addressed nearly immediately.  Overall this seems to be, on it's face, a moderate buff to new players and a massive nerf to older players.  I agree that closing the gap some is good, but this is at the cost of the only game mode we have to play which is limited to a 1 hour rotation (meaning if you do 20 min of it and leave, you now have 40 minutes before you can play again for anything meaningful) and that #feelsbadman.  

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 

  • Base Damage - Since the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only, the base damage of all melee weapons is going to significantly increase. Expect to see some big numbers! Full details will be in the Update notes, but every weapon is going up.

 

So x5 damage? I mean running sorties I try not to let my multiplier drop below x4 because then things take to long to die and I end up dead.

11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

1. Equipping Melee and Manual Blocking!

 

One of the bigger changes added to the Melee Rework: Phase 1 was the addition of fluid swapping between melee and Primary / Secondary Weapons. However, some players preferred the ability to manually block, making some of their builds less easy to manage. While we restored manual blocking for players playing ‘sword alone’, it wasn’t quite the same. 
 
The good news is that both functions are back! Holding the weapon swap button will equip melee fully again, and the aim button will manually block when in this mode. Holding the Weapon Swap button while Exalted Melee is in play will also lock you into Exalted Melee mode!

 

Can I get third option? I'm sick of bullet jumping/jumping into a block glide while I have a primary or secondary out. It slows down my movement, keeps me from shooting things while jumping or while trying to aim glide and I keep getting taken back to my melee. At least this makes it so that I can start using gun blades fully again, since auto-blocking stops the firing animation.

 

11 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

7. Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the ‘Lifted’ Status

 

Channeling will be saying its final farewells in the Melee Rework: Phase 2 update, and instead is being replaced with a new form of Heavy Attack, as well as a new Lifted status effect. As we said before, Channeling Mods will also be changed to support this new system, as well as providing a larger pool of utility to choose from in your builds.

 

These are the changes planned:

  • Heavy Attacks (Alt-Fire for Melee) - Heavy attacks can now occur at any time, simply by pressing the Alt-fire button while you have melee equipped or in your hand. This costs all of your Combo Counter (affected by Mods), so make sure you lay down the hurt! If you don’t have any Combo Counter active, you will use a Heavy Attack, but it will not benefit from any damage bonus from the Combo Counter. 
  • Heavy Slam Attacks (Jump + Alt-Fire for Melee) - This new Slam Attack will create a new effect on targets, known as the LIFTED STATUS. When a target is Lifted, it is held suspended in the air, allowing a player to follow up on attacks while the target is held helplessly aloft. Again, if you do not have any Combo Counter active, this will act as a Heavy Slam attack without a damage bonus, and minimal Lifting Status.

While I am ok with heavy attacks over charged attacks, I'm not ok with loosing channeling to get it. I use channeling to combo stealth kills since channeling is how we remove enemy bodies. So what are we going to get in it's place? Will stealth finishers automatically disintegrate bodies?

12 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 

  • Blood Rush - Will now scale differently, using a stacking multiplier based on the Combo Counter, raising (X)% per Combo Counter tier (something much easier to achieve in Phase 2). We will provide the final % pending more testing. 
  • Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change. Final % to come.
  • Gladiator Mod Set - Adds a multiplier with the Combo Counter up to 60% for the whole set.
  • Maiming Strike - Changes from an additive buff to a stacking buff, but base functionality increased to a Significant % of the old version to balance the change. Final % to come soon.
  • Weeping Wounds - Increases Status chance in a Stacking Multiplier, increased to 60% at max level.

 

Ouch. I'm going to get some gauze and a suture kit.... And when this update drops I'm going to login, sit back with some buttered popcorn and watch region chat because there will be plenty of salt there.

12 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

 

  • Covert Lethality - Is being removed from Dagger Weapons and is now being applied to a new system that is shipping alongside Melee Rework: Phase 2 (hint: Parazon).
  • Dispatch Overdrive - Increases player movement on a Heavy Attack hit.

 

Darn. So much for my dagger builds.

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This change seems to shape into everything I was hoping it not to be.

Combo, range, Condition Overload being nerfed, aka the only things making melee viable. Heavy attacks look like a gimmick. Lots of weapons and mods just went down the drain.

Well, I guess its time we go back to the coptering days where melee was really useless for combat outside of lv 10.

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51 minutes ago, goomowiec said:

R.I.P all CO builds

How is it RIP? They clearly stated CO is going to be buffed from 60 to a higher number. I use 100% status zaw with 3 60/60 mods depending on faction and on average depending on IPS RNG I proc mostly 2-3 status effects on an enemy as either the status slips off the target or the slash procs already killed them. Higher % is still higher damage numbers.

 

Its more like RIP quick melee lifestrike the reliable healing for us solo endurance players. Don't say "we have pizzas for that", we all know 2 lifestrike quick melees heal most frames to full. Having to make heavy attacks creates a window for enemies to kill us.

Edited by MadMattPrime
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15 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

by higher levels what do u mean?

level 200? cause thats meant to kill everything  not just ur loki 

One lvl 100 Corrupted Gunner vs Excalibur Umbra using Umbral Vitality, Umbral Fiber + maxed out Arcane Guardian time to kill 2-3 seconds from a distance of 20 meters.

Try to use something except your rhino.

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vor 11 Stunden schrieb Zeniistar:

Why is melee getting nerfed so hard?

Because it deserves to get hit with the nerf hammer, turned into a bloody pulp and rebuild from scratch.

So sick of long range zaws wiping entire rooms without need to aim making all other weapons either irrelevant or pushed into niches.

 

Someone mentioned range being the critical factor in the rework. I agree.

Edited by Sahansral
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I really like a lot of the ideas you've got going on here. I like the idea of the gap closer, I like the idea of combo counter being an expendable resource, not meant to just be stacked infinitely. 
As for the combos themselves, I like the idea of "forward combo" - self looping, spammable, not the best, but gets the job done
rmb + lmb + forward - gap closer. I would really like an option for this to be sprint + melee, or melee while sprinting, because that would transition well out of a sprint, maybe a method to start a ground combo out of an aim glide?

I am a bit confused as to why the gap closers also contain their own combos. You mentioned how players could weave different attacks between combos. so why not have the gap closer just be one move you can mix in between the other combos? you can still have 'forward' (weak) and neutral (strong) versions, but instead of worrying about the whole combo, why not just have 1 attack you can weave in between other ones? *in the middle of neutral combo, mob dies, use gap closer to get to next target, then finish neutral combo* I'm just confused why BOTH gap closers also have their own completely unique combos, unless it's gonna be a chain of gap closers that chain to multiple targets?

I'm looking forward to changes in air melee... I honestly think that's needed a revamp for a while. I would really like some way to start a ground combo while landing maybe?

Amalgam Organ Shatter... please make this still affect glaive charge?
I don't really know much about this parazon... but I am very sad to see covert lethality go... RIP my favorite melee weapon.


I know this has been said before even on this thread, but i'd like to bring it up again, because I feel like it's a very important point.

You spend all of this time making melee really cool, and give some interesting depth and variety to it... But I don't believe most of it is going to be useful for 95% of the players. Because there is almost no area of this game that requires that much effort. Someone said earlier "we are gods smashing ants with hammers" yes, you've added a bunch of cool combos and switching between those combos... but where can we actually use that?

As the game currently stands, I'd estimate over half the melee weapons in the game are able to do every available bit of content with the exception of sortie + content with just their basic "hold forward and melee" combo. And this is meant to be the weaker one. I'll estimate even farther that probably 20-30% of the weapons in the game can do practically any content in the game sans a few bosses (spiders) with the same combo. When I started reading about the heavy attacks, I went "cool, now we can store up and use it on... on..." it genuinely took me several minutes to come up with a single enemy worth using the stored up combo counter on, the only ones I could think of were the Nox and a Demolyst, but those have such stupid damage reduction, it would probably just be a waste anyway. Same example with guardian derision: "cool, i can be a tank for... um... for..." I honestly can't think of any enemy in the entire game where one would want to sit there and guard and taunt... when you could simply just kill them all, unless you're going for some cheesy block strat and trying to just see how big your combo counter can get.

A similar issue happens with the new "lifted" status. That sounds really cool, CC a mob for some targeted damage but... CC already is generally considered useless in a very large portion of the game, because why would you take the time to cc anything when it just dies?

I'd like to reiterate, I genuinely like the idea for a lot of what you've set up... But I believe we need actual content to use it on... else I just question what it was meant for? You've given us a brand new box of toys... and almost no where to play with them.

 

Real Ninjas run, not bunny hop

Edited by mishli
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12 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

Because it deserves to get hit with the nerf hammer, turned into a bloody pulp and rebuild from scratch.

So sick of long range zaws wiping entire rooms without need to aim making all other weapons either irrelevant or pushed into niches.

 

Someone mentioned range being the critical factor in the rework. I agree.

No offense... but it doesn't require a zaw to do that... several dozen guns can do about the same thing and probably with less aiming

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While I’m glad to see removal of “Autoblocking” , I will probably put Glaivesque Melees back to storage hangar thanks to Amalgam Organ Shatter change.

Edited by (PS4)Onder6099

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