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Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

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7 часов назад, Kaleidoomscope сказал:

Primed Reach, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush nerf

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up.

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

 

Not Cool.

And don't laugh at me  if you see me equipping Glaive Prime in any mission. This post is the reason.

 

 

Slides need to go away, and DE told this like... year ago, it's your own fault.

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7. Replacing Channeling with Heavy Attacks and the ‘Lifted’ Status

Um. No. Channeling exists for a reason; it's to give your attacks more damage without interrupting flow and combos or disrupting mob behavior. Changing it to a heavy attack that'll ragdoll mobs will NOT be what a lot of people want. If I'm using something like Guandao or any long-range weapon and going full speed like a walking blender, slicing through hordes of Infested and I click to turn on Channeling it means I have spare energy I don't mind using to make mobs die faster, not be CC'd. If I wanted to CC mobs I'D BRING SOMETHING TO CC WITH. Some weapons really only shine when they're channeled anyway, and channeling buffs in rivens can lead to interesting loadouts so when you channel you basically end up with an insta-kill lightsaber. Melee already has plenty of CC, it's basically what half—or more—of it already is. Look at Silva & Aegis Prime, for example, its' slam attack shooting out flames and stunning enemies is one of the things that makes it special. If you take that away/give it to every stick, whip, and blade under the sun then you lose uniqueness too.

 

Don't take an entire weapon class that is the most diverse in the game and make them all the same. Not all of them were made with big slams and heavy attacks in mind, and will be worse off. Heck, Valkyr's claws losing channeling kinda some of the principle core behind her most basic fundamentals, which is "Use your energy for a short but ludicrous amount of melee damage." Does she do a lot of damage without channeling? Sure I guess, but it's still the removal of raw power, which is the entire point, not to CC and spread mobs around in a soon-to-be unfamiliar manner, but to focus and shred.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

ur not meant to fight past lvl 100, prove me wrong

Some arbitrations start at 100+, and optimal time for one of those is an hour so you can go right into the next one

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What about Spin2Win?, how is that gonna favor?, cuz this was broken from release, same goes for super high range weapons. 

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Just a reminder I know its been brought up...Throwing a Glaive....please make it behave like when your dual equipping (single 2nd + glaive)....that delay before throwing is really awful.

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb Gravemind93:

Um. No. Channeling exists for a reason; it's to give your attacks more damage without interrupting flow and combos or disrupting mob behavior. Changing it to a heavy attack that'll ragdoll mobs will NOT be what a lot of people want. If I'm using something like Guandao or any long-range weapon and going full speed like a walking blender, slicing through hordes of Infested and I click to turn on Channeling it means I have spare energy I don't mind using to make mobs die faster, not be CC'd. If I wanted to CC mobs I'D BRING SOMETHING TO CC WITH. Some weapons really only shine when they're channeled anyway, and channeling buffs in rivens can lead to interesting loadouts so when you channel you basically end up with an insta-kill lightsaber. Melee already has plenty of CC, it's basically what half—or more—of it already is. Look at Silva & Aegis Prime, for example, its' slam attack shooting out flames and stunning enemies is one of the things that makes it special. If you take that away/give it to every stick, whip, and blade under the sun then you lose uniqueness too.

 

Don't take an entire weapon class that is the most diverse in the game and make them all the same. Not all of them were made with big slams and heavy attacks in mind, and will be worse off. Heck, Valkyr's claws losing channeling kinda some of the principle core behind her most basic fundamentals, which is "Use your energy for a short but ludicrous amount of melee damage." Does she do a lot of damage without channeling? Sure I guess, but it's still the removal of raw power, which is the entire point, not to CC and spread mobs around in a soon-to-be unfamiliar manner, but to focus and shred.

this works low level because channeling in the end is only a base dmg increase aside of some channeling mods which are effectively wasted slots. u could as well build for combo counter and not use any combo counter mod aside of +combo dura, same result. there is nothing interesting about it.

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Wow, there are so many changes all at once that it's kinda hard to tell how this will actually play! This is certainly the hammer to the melee system that 2.9999 was sounding like it would be.

While I'm not the only one eager to get my hands on it and to provide feedback, I hope we all give the new system a fair shake and take time to develop critical feedback. Likewise, I hope there are no knee-jerk reactions to the inevitable immediate, negative response. Some people absolutely hate change.

From the limited amount that I have seen, I am worried that the pursuit of single-target "flow"-based combat will leave us less flexible across the broader battlefield than we were before, even taking into account the new gap closing attacks and range buffs. Frankly, quick melee and slide attacks were popular not only because of their strength, but because they came out exactly when you wanted them, where you wanted them. You moved yourself from target to target and just relied on the attack button to do its job. With quick melee gone and the slide meta removed, I wonder whether slide attacks will still be popular in the new system.

Hopefully my fears are unfounded and this proves to be just as fun as it looks!

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

ur not meant to fight past lvl 100, prove me wrong

Some abritrations start with 100 enemies.

Leaderboard challenges exist for bragging rights.

Endurance runs exist for min-max people who want to test their builds to their fullest potential. Simulacrum has a level cap based on your mastery rank and mob cap.

Clan resources gathering exist. Curse you Hema and your mutagen nom noms.

Friends exist.

Its a matter in preference for the player. Just because you like short missions and simple enemies doesn't mean everyone likes them. 

The melee changes are going to be MORE obvious due to how armor scaling works on longer runs. The changes won't be noticeable on puny enemies who die in one melee strike.

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8 hours ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

Primed Reach, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush nerf

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up.

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

 

Not Cool.

And don't laugh at me  if you see me equipping Glaive Prime in any mission. This post is the reason.

 

 

Delicious.

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Looking forward to this update. Really liked almost everything I read. Unless something goes horribly wrong, I think you guys hit the nail on the head for this one. Unbelievable amount of work but IMO badly needed. 

Also good on you for dialing back on the ridiculousness that is blood rush/CO and dumping much of that damage back into base stats and the combo counter. The less mandatory mods the better. I'm really, really looking forward to what the normalization of range mods can do for the dagger class. I've wanted to use my Fang Prime for a long time and not feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

A few concerns.

Life strike being tied into heavy attack which require a pretty hefty windup (ex. the skana was 0.8s). WIll windup time be affected by melee speed mods and powers? A lot of melee builds on squishy warframes rely on a large number of relatively small heals per second that the current life strike provides. The current wording suggests that the heals are more bursty (meaning much of the heal will be wasted) and less of a constant stream of healing. I'd really like for a small amount of life steal to be included with normal attacks and a much higher percentage for heavy attacks or alternatively allow for overheals which then have a decay over time (to contrast overshields which dont decay).

The current changes still do not address the fact that melee is absolutely useless against invincible-weak point type enemies. There is no way to perform precision hits with a melee weapon and the game currently counts any hit that hits something other than the weak spot to be a miss. Not sure how there is a good way to fix this other than allowing melee some ways to bypass the invincibility. For example melee hits suffer damage reduction instead. Heavy hits suffer less damage reduction. Lifted status reduces this even further. Allow higher combo multiplier values to lift heavier enemies. Ex. a 1.5x will lift bombards. 4x would lift lephantis. Something like that.

Removal of auto block means that it will be much slower to increase defense. With the current system as soon as you quick melee there is some amount of blocking going on. Now we have to wait for the draw before we can take advantage of any defense there may be. Perhaps make that first draw attack also count as a block/counter/projectile reflect/knockdown reflect? This way if we are shooting guns but are about to get shot we can simply attack into the direction of the incoming damage to block/reflect it and from there we can choose to draw the melee and keep blocking or go back to shooting. I've always wanted to be able to reflect bombard/napalm rockets back at them or cut the rockets in mid air. 

There were some systems that were not addressed such as the focus tree melee nodes. Some of the best exodia arcanes are channeling based. The entire group use a buff in general. Also a bunch of abilities scale off of combo counter although it may not be a bad idea to make players choose between making a big heavy hit or using the exalted weapon. The clunky finisher system was not addressed either. I'm sincerely hoping that gets moved to another button or gets canned entirely until a proper stealth kill/blinded kill system can get built.

 

Edit: The salty tears of all the macro spamming BR-MS-CO spin 2 winners make me happy. Gotta actually play the game now. Boo Hoo. Much sad. Also it's not like DE just showed they buffed an intro tier weapon by 3x damage for normal hits and approximately 8x damage for heavy attacks. I'd bet that most of you little screamers werent hitting anywhere close to those multiplier values before anyway.

Edited by ADirtyMonk
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Thanks for killing the Kesheg. It wasn't a popular weapon to begin with but now the only reason to play it is gone.

 

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RIP Endurance Runs

Also RIP every melee designed for high range. (The whole point of building polearms and heavy blades.) :(

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Seems like people are missing the fact that they're buffing the melee base ranges, and with the number Bear gave us, Primed Reach will be giving ~4 meters at max rank.
I can see why they're just going to push this through as is for people to test it, since about half of the replies here didn't fully read the post or watch the stream.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

the Combo Multiplier will apply to Heavy Attacks only

Well, this sucks.

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How will this rework work with abilities like Atlas' Landslide?

Sorry if this has been asked already.

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14 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

Hover Air Combo (Back + Melee while Jumping) -

Current Combos with Back are extreme difficult to do on consoles (at last for me) it will be easier after update?

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I feel like our ability to kill high-level enemies has been severely hindered. Other than that I am ok with the changes. Blood Rush and Condition Overload were crucial for long runs. I hope you can at least do something regarding armor scaling. 

CO/Maiming/Blood Rush made less popular weapons and those with lesser stats usable. Now no one will use them. 

Edited by Haelbrecht
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26 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

about half of the replies here didn't fully read the post or watch the stream.

Seriously. This entire thread is a goddam S#&$ show. So many posts about how melee is dead, damage nerf, blah blah blah. When DE effectively is starting everyone off at a base 3x combo multiplier for normal attacks compared to where we are now; even higher for heavy attacks. CO and BR nerfs had it coming for a long time except in return the base multiplier is also going up for both those mods. There's also an absolutely majestic reply on page 2 where the goober is whining that since they cant spin 2 win anymore they can only enjoy the game if they play aimbot frame. smh.

Edited by ADirtyMonk
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I see you don’t want players to use one loadout for everything, and hope with this update there will be more variance.

but somehow I feel like all the changes so far are superficial and not critical. You change melee system to encourage (force) players to apply alternative loadouts, neglecting the fact we still and always need to kill mobs with efficiency, in order to farm something or just to complete the mission 1 sec faster. This untouched, I’m afraid no matter how you change whatever dmg system, we will always find the most efficient loadout with each update, and stick to it, as it’s costly for players to ready multiple variances, and it’s impossible for you to make each loadout equally efficient.

to bring the variety back, I would suggest to free players from forced mass killing. 

After all, we are ninjas, not genocidists.

Edited by RosenLikor
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9 hours ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

Primed Reach, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush nerf

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up.

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

 

Not Cool.

And don't laugh at me  if you see me equipping Glaive Prime in any mission. This post is the reason.

 

 

I am going to laugh at you. Also, who in their right minds pays 6000 plat for a Scoliac riven? There are plenty of good ones for like 2000 and less.

The other thing is that they even announced they will nerf spin2win ages ago. The telegraphs were everywhere.

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16 minutes ago, ADirtyMonk said:

Seriously. This entire thread is a goddam S#&$ show. So many posts about how melee is dead, damage nerf, blah blah blah. When DE effectively is starting everyone off at a base 3x combo multiplier for normal attacks compared to where we are now; even higher for heavy attacks. CO and BR nerfs had it coming for a long time except in return the base multiplier is also going up for both those mods. There's also an absolutely majestic reply on page 2 where the goober is whining that since they cant spin 2 win anymore they can only enjoy the game if they play aimbot frame. smh.

Thing is, we don't even know if CO is being nerfed, as we don't know the base number.
Same with Blood Rush in a way, as the combo counter will build much easier.
If anything, one of the only true criticisms to the thread is that no precise numbers are given.

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44 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

this works low level because channeling in the end is only a base dmg increase aside of some channeling mods which are effectively wasted slots. u could as well build for combo counter and not use any combo counter mod aside of +combo dura, same result. there is nothing interesting about it.

Implying Channeling isn't relevant in higher levels. Man that's really, really comedic right there.

Implying you'd always be able to get high enough combo counters to make up for the damage you could have had if you didn't waste fill your slots with combo-oriented mods

You know you can stack channeling with combos right

And I never said channeling mods(aside from rivens) were a good idea, cause they're universally pretty bad. 

 

Quote

channeling in the end is only a base dmg increase

Why do you say "only" like it does nothing else? Don't forget it gives a massive boost to finishers(not that most need it) and more damage to DoT's like Slash or Toxin(which can be a big deal) and it even increases the damage block %(for now at least) which can be a life-saver and blocking doesn't even cost energy.

But I digress. If I'm doing a Hidden Flourish with my Plague Kripath rapier, I'll do substantially more damage if I channel as opposed to fitting for combo counters because I would simply lose too much up-front damage. Y'know why? Cause it's a short string and there's no time to build for super maximum combo-counter numbers. "But what if I can't kill them with a short combo/string? Then counters make sense!"-Sure but it doesn't make sense why you're going into a mission planning on spending longer than you probably have to just to see that number go big-high-yay.

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12 hours ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

I dont see anything about the scythe changes that were mentioned a while ago where scythes use heavy blade stances and will be increased in size, is that still happening?

Honestly, parts of the heavy blade stances don't fit scythes too well, and would prefer just keeping the updated scythe specific ones or having it be polearm instead.
I'm fine with having all three of course, but I'm also wondering where the scythe size increase changes are.
Because visually they're still just bladed pickaxes.

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This looks really cool!

I'm guessing that daggers will deal a lot more damage than they do now?
Low range + small blocking angle + no Covert Lethality + low damage sounds like a terrible deal, even if they are fast and thus build combo quickly.

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