Dev Workshop - Melee Rework Phase 2: TECHNIQUE

[HolySeraphin]

7 hours ago, EdDiesel said:

Overall this update looks really cool. There are two things that come to mind which I am sure have been mentioned in regard too melee combat. That is the subject of blocking while in dedicated melee mode and juggling enemies. Both are awesome additions; however, my slight concerns with these to start off, to perform melee block you have to be in melee mode first before you can start blocking. Without a form of holster speed this could destroy players not being able to recover in those O!s#$% situations having to first swap between fire mode and melee mode before they can start blocking. Second, when melee juggle occurs it only appears to affect one target which makes sense I suppose, but the issue I have is while I am juggling the enemy there are typically many more of them around me probably shooting me. Dedicating myself to this without any form of damage mitigation while performing action may cause players not to attempt it often due to the risk of being one shot while in the motion. At least in group fights which we are in majority of the time.

Again overall both are great additions.

They aren't removing the quick swap between melee and primary weapon. You only are "locked" into melee mode by holding the swap button like it used to be. But otherwise you can still go into melee mode by doing 1 melee attack during normal combat.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

All i see is DE trying to close the gap between people who know how to build and people who dont. For a person who just started it might look good because casuals will probably (If they know how to make a decent build) start clearing basic content with ease. Compared to the veterans who knows and see the downside to all the changes and notice DE trying to limit the max damage possible by melee. Condition overload cap is a complete nerf, kills all synergies with weapon and guns. What's the point of using the gun if I'm going to max out all 3procs on the melee without it. Normal i keep around 4-5x combo counter so giving melee 3.5 boost seems a bit meh. I wouldn't mind the combo counter change if a heavy attack didnt use the whole combo meter. Can u imagine build up to 5x With blood rush and 1 hit gets rid of all of it. Dont like the sound of it. I understand if it get rid of 5 or 10 hits, all of it is definitely too extreme. Forcing players to give up a slot so u wont use all of thus weaken melees more.

[GreyEnneract]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

with no actual number stated... DE could literally change the current 60% to 61% and technically they've made it do more damage per status but the overall damage potential of the mod will have been reduced due to the 3 stacks... so essentially a nerf to the mod unless you only aimed for 3 status effects for CO. 

His statement is still objectively correct, even if it misses the overall issue.
They could also make it give 200% per stack, so honestly you're both ridiculous.
 

[HolySeraphin]

58 minutes ago, Shifted said:

Well, this sucks.

The skana currently deals 35 base damage, the one in the devstream had 120 base damage, that's 3.4x higher, so you're basically starting with a 3.5x combo counter, which is insane.

[sightjacker]

moar nerfs yay, can you play arbys for 1hr+ without being carried? DE? just asking 😄

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

3 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

The skana currently deals 35 base damage, the one in the devstream had 120 base damage, that's 3.4x higher, so you're basically starting with a 3.5x combo counter, which is insane.

You do know people get higher than 3.5x multiplier right? 

[LSG501]

10 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

His statement is still objectively correct, even if it misses the overall issue.
They could also make it give 200% per stack, so honestly you're both ridiculous.
 

While yes mine was being extreme, but technically correct rather than objectively, anyone who thinks they're going to give the mod 200% is being even worse... that isn't going to happen. 

If I'm being honest I'm expecting 80%, enough to make it look like they've increased to compensate but still a net negative to the mod in actual use. 

[Hikelos]

Many changes here are great, but they are reminiscent of some of the newest frames that despite having great design and overall fun mechanics fall flat in action against some of the older and better performing ones (EX: Why do the Garuda 4,1,hold1 combo when you can just press 4 on Mesa, Frost, Oberon,etc. - Even Larvae on Nidus).

Melee doesn't revolve around Slide Attacks because of the Slide Crit mod, or the range mods, or the damage, or the combo counter.

To make a long story short, Slide Attacks are needed in the current game because damage-to-enemy-HP ratio is so busted that the only relevant optimization is Range+Mobility; the issue that you're trying to fix is inherent of the game itself because of the way missions are structured and the way damage works.

It's hordes of enemies, often coming from all directions, with very few bulkier ones requiring a tad of attention like Nox or Juggernaut and some anti-Ability enemies like nullifiers and Ancients. This type of encounter inherently favours things that can hit everything at once, like Mesa's Shooting Gallery or Saryn's Toxin, or the infamous wallhacking Ignis Wraith, or a range modded whip with 360 radius slide attacks spam.

Sure, I have this really cool slam attack that suspends enemies now, but in the time I'm done killing 3 guys with my melee combo, Wisp has already Sunblasted the entire room 2 times over and I feel like an idiot. Despite my obstination to play melee, often times the map gets decimated before I can do much of anything, especially on Defense missions where I can't just be the first in line to get some action by being faster.

These changes to melee seem like a lot of fun, but what are we going to use them on?

Most enemies even up to level 100 die from 1 hit of melee(or anything else), I personally use a Rapier on Garuda/Valkyr al lot, purely for early victorian era style points, and even the lv 150 fatties in Kuva missions just die in 1-2 hits. This doesn't mean melee damage needs a nerf, because I can oneshot them just the same with most guns that are reasonably modded or Warframe abilities, the issue is that there aren't any enemies in the game that require that melee combo assault to be taken down, and you can't fix that by changing melee.

I go back to Garuda because her design is exemplary of this issue: is there any enemy at all in the entire game where the extremely powerful debuff from her 4 makes any difference? The only thing I can think of is enemies after 2h of Grineer survival. EDIT: By chance today's final sortie was Disruption and Garuda's 4 was actually very good against the suicide bombers. Make those kind of bulky bastards the rule rather than the 1-time exception.

It's not usable against anything with a big enough HP bar like Assassination bosses or Eidolon limbs, and for everything it does affect it's just overkill to the point of being irrelevant. The ability is ridiculously overpowered in damage, but it finds no real application because there's nothing to use it on, much like melee outside of whip spinning.

TL;DR : I think more enemies within hordes that require single-target attention and damage would do more to fix the issues with melee than changes to the melee system itself can. Gimmickless Noxes and Juggernauts, no weak spot, you just finally have free range to unload all that damage on something that isn't in a 10 hour survival. The other side of that coin however, is to not make the game inaccessible to players without a really good mod setup, but I honestly think a little bit of a barrier to entry for some things can only be a good thing for the game as it is right now, the only barriers right now being specific setups for Eidolons and Orbs.

Spoiler

Additionally: I know you guys really don't want any of the backlash from spinning babies, but Spin to win always be the best way to play melee because of the mobility and range it offers. Even if you refuse to spin out of stubborness, you will find yourself using it as a gap closer, it simply offers too much mobility when compared with the rest of melee (and it doesn't ragdoll enemies 10m away like slam attacks).  My nuclear proposal would be to replace spinning with a wide-area, almost instant, gap closer, let us zip and zap from enemy to enemy really really fast so that melee combos can compete with some of the AoE killing methods. It would also provide a small "aim" element to diversify melee gameplay and feel really ninja.

 

[HolySeraphin]

7 hours ago, SafeRoom said:

But still though. Some guns like the Exergis or the Tigris literally require a reload speed mod at the cost of damage due to having to reload them so many times. The only way to make them playable is with a Riven which people shouldn't have to do.

OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. The ONLY thing holding back these weapons from becoming full meta is reload speed and magazine size, because they are meant to be "burst" weapons, to kill in 1-2 shots, but weak against crowlds. And regular Tigris already deals 2x the raw damage of Corinth, and 1.8 s for reload isn't that bad. Weapons must have drawbacks, otherwise everyone will only use these 2

[HolySeraphin]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

You do know people get higher than 3.5x multiplier right? 

Do you know that to reach 3.5x you have to hit 405 times, don't you? And to reach 4.0x you must hit 1,215 times. Most people don't reach/need these numbers, even for lvl 160 enemies.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

While yes mine was being extreme, but technically correct rather than objectively, anyone who thinks they're going to give the mod 200% is being even worse... that isn't going to happen. 

If I'm being honest I'm expecting 80%, enough to make it look like they've increased to compensate but still a net negative to the mod in actual use. 

Here's my problem with it. People could just grab the gram p with weeping wounds and get all 3 procs using only ips. Its a straight up nerf to builds that have 4-6x the amount of procs. Not including the adding in synergies from guns and ability procs

[HolySeraphin]

10 hours ago, Kaleidoomscope said:

Primed Reach, Maiming Strike, Blood Rush nerf

I invested 6000 plat on a Scoliac riven and now you are killing slide attack? Remember Scoliac has a base cc of 5%, changing these mods to stacking multipliers mess everything up.

There may be some weapons op, there may be some mechanics broken. But DE, do not completely wipe them out——this will only hurt veterans. 

 

DE: Let's make this thing overpowered so people spend money on this.

2 years after

DE: It looks like most people have invested on this. Let's change this to trash so that they will have to invest on other stuff.

 

Not Cool.

And don't laugh at me  if you see me equipping Glaive Prime in any mission. This post is the reason.

 

 

6000 plat? For a riven? Your tears are truly delicious. 

 

[LSG501]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

Here's my problem with it. People could just grab the gram p with weeping wounds and get all 3 procs using only ips. Its a straight up nerf to builds that have 4-6x the amount of procs. Not including the adding in synergies from guns and ability procs

I know it's a nerf, same with several other mods and said as much in my first post around page 10 lol

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

11 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Do you know that to reach 3.5x you have to hit 405 times, don't you? And to reach 4.0x you must hit 1,215 times. Most people don't reach/need these numbers, even for lvl 160 enemies.

You obviously never seen the slash monsters with relentless combination who skyrocket they combos to 5x+ huh?

[HolySeraphin]

1 hour ago, ADirtyMonk said:

Seriously. This entire thread is a goddam S#&$ show. So many posts about how melee is dead, damage nerf, blah blah blah. When DE effectively is starting everyone off at a base 3x combo multiplier for normal attacks compared to where we are now; even higher for heavy attacks. CO and BR nerfs had it coming for a long time except in return the base multiplier is also going up for both those mods. There's also an absolutely majestic reply on page 2 where the goober is whining that since they cant spin 2 win anymore they can only enjoy the game if they play aimbot frame. smh.

Correction. 3.4x damage. Base skana deals 35 and will deal 120 now. And just to add, heavy attack will deal 480 damage. This means that heavy attack will deal 4x the damage of the "new normal attack", or 13.71x the damage of a regular attack from the current skana, and this will be affected by mods, which is crazy, even more because of amalgan organ shatter

[HolySeraphin]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Dyin-Kyo said:

You obviously never seen the slash monsters with relentless combination who skyrocket they combos to 5x+ huh?

My point still stands, you don't need 5x.

[(PSN)Dyin-Kyo]

Bout to be straight up atterax meta Weeping wounds blood rush condition overload and every damage cd cc mod u can possibly fit in. Nothing but slash beast builds.

[Aldain]

Wow.

Somebody spent 6000 plat on a Riven.

Just...wow.

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, Aldain said:

Wow.

Somebody spent 6000 plat on a Riven.

Just...wow.

Yep, the most I spent was...I think 300-500?And that was for Corinth.

[Accaliah]

these changes look awesome DE thanks! ❤️

 

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, HolySeraphin said:

Yep, the most I spent was...I think 300-500?And that was for Corinth.

I just did some math and 6000 plat (assuming no discount coupons) is just about 300 dollars.

300 dollars spent on a digital pile of data.

I just can't even comprehend how that could be considered a "good investment".

[KennBone]

hace 6 minutos, Aldain dijo:

I just did some math and 6000 plat (assuming no discount coupons) is just about 300 dollars.

300 dollars spent on a digital pile of data.

I just can't even comprehend how that could be considered a "good investment".

It´s called pay for hobby, im still cant see any problem with that, there are people who spend alot more money of wrost things..

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, MadMattPrime said:

How is it RIP? They clearly stated CO is going to be buffed from 60 to a higher number. I use 100% status zaw with 3 60/60 mods depending on faction and on average depending on IPS RNG I proc mostly 2-3 status effects on an enemy as either the status slips off the target or the slash procs already killed them. Higher % is still higher damage numbers.

 

Its more like RIP quick melee lifestrike the reliable healing for us solo endurance players. Don't say "we have pizzas for that", we all know 2 lifestrike quick melees heal most frames to full. Having to make heavy attacks creates a window for enemies to kill us.

You procs 2-3 status on average? I have specific loadout/build that can proc 10-12 status in secs. 

CO/BR/MS and the current combo system all work exponentially together. Now the true power of melee seems to be nerfed to the ground and become much less effective overall. 

[Gluckogon]

Quote

Condition Overload - Now stacks at a maximum of 3 Status Effects, however damage is being increased from 60% to a higher percent to balance the change.

It feels like weapons that already pretty overpowered (like Gram Prime or Redeemer Prime) will receive a buff, while pure status weapons (like Lesion) are going to trash.

If you want to nerf Condition Overload why wouldn't you just nerf the bonus damage percentage, while not limit its potential with the cap. If you reduce bonus damage from the current +60% to +40% numbers will look like this:

If an enemy have 8 statuses applied:

1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 = ~43 (with +60% CO)

versus

1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 * 1.4 = ~15 (with +40% CO)

So we go from x43 damage multiplier down to x15 damage multiplier (for 8 statuses), which is a MASSIVE nerf, yet it will keep one of the most fun game mechanics relevant.

[paul5473]

For once I'm gonna wait for it to come out and judge reading all this is fine but builds are something else